Mandy's sick puppies [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

Elaine T

February 5th 05, 09:36 AM

Mandy wrote:
> Okay, this evening, female blue ram has only two spots (somehow lost
> two) but now the male ram has one spot on both pectoral fins. His
> spots are whitish. Hers might look more yellow because one is on her
> colorful body and the other one is on her colorful dorsal fin.
>
> Either way, they're parasites, right? So here's my plan - I try
> soaking defrosted blood worms in metronidazole for a few hours and
> treat everybody. Except the Angel who won't eat. For her I just wait
> until the heater arrives and then put her into quarantine and treat the
> water and hope somehow the medicine gets inside her.
>
> Is this a good plan? Will I find metronidazole at any local lfs or
> should I call around.
>
> Hope someone reads this!
>
>
Sounds like ich on the rams. Internal metronidazole won't help with ich
because the parasite is in the aquarium as well as on the fish. Ich
parasites mature as spots on the fish, fall off, reproduce in cysts in
the tank, swim around for a short period of time (the only time they can
be killed) and infect other fish. You'd just as well leave the rams in
the main tank because the whole tank needs medication in the water.

First, check temps and make sure they're stable from day to night and
fix any fluctuations. Temperature fluctuations often start ich going.
Then find a medicine with formalin and malachite green - Rid Ich, Contra
Spot, or Quick Cure are three examples and follow the directions until
the spots are gone from the fish. Then dose every three days for a
total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as
they hatch out of cysts.

There are other ways of curing ich, including adding salt to the water
and raising temperature. However, I think those are harder on plants
and fish. (See my ich thread for now NOT to handle ich by adding salt
too fast and raising temperature too soon with a new, untested heater).

As for finding metronidazole, I'd call around.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

NetMax

February 5th 05, 03:22 PM

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Okay, this evening, female blue ram has only two spots (somehow lost
> two) but now the male ram has one spot on both pectoral fins. His
> spots are whitish. Hers might look more yellow because one is on her
> colorful body and the other one is on her colorful dorsal fin.
>
> Either way, they're parasites, right? So here's my plan - I try
> soaking defrosted blood worms in metronidazole for a few hours and
> treat everybody. Except the Angel who won't eat. For her I just wait
> until the heater arrives and then put her into quarantine and treat the
> water and hope somehow the medicine gets inside her.
>
> Is this a good plan? Will I find metronidazole at any local lfs or
> should I call around.
>
> Hope someone reads this!

I like using freeze-dried tubifex worms for medicated foods. Mix water
and medication and crumble the worms in to soak up the slurry. It sounds
like a cyst on the Ram. Personally I wouldn't even treat it at this
point and would just monitor its progress. The medicated food sounds
like a good idea because of the Angelfish though. I have no experience
with metronidazole.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Elaine T

February 5th 05, 08:13 PM

NetMax wrote:
> "Mandy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Okay, this evening, female blue ram has only two spots (somehow lost
>>two) but now the male ram has one spot on both pectoral fins. His
>>spots are whitish. Hers might look more yellow because one is on her
>>colorful body and the other one is on her colorful dorsal fin.
>>
>>Either way, they're parasites, right? So here's my plan - I try
>>soaking defrosted blood worms in metronidazole for a few hours and
>>treat everybody. Except the Angel who won't eat. For her I just wait
>>until the heater arrives and then put her into quarantine and treat the
>>water and hope somehow the medicine gets inside her.
>>
>>Is this a good plan? Will I find metronidazole at any local lfs or
>>should I call around.
>>
>>Hope someone reads this!
>
>
>
> I like using freeze-dried tubifex worms for medicated foods. Mix water
> and medication and crumble the worms in to soak up the slurry. It sounds
> like a cyst on the Ram. Personally I wouldn't even treat it at this
> point and would just monitor its progress. The medicated food sounds
> like a good idea because of the Angelfish though. I have no experience
> with metronidazole.

Metronidazole = Flagyl and is used in humans for some bacterial and most
protozoan diseases. I suggested it because we had such luck with it
treating discus with intestinal parasites at store where I worked. You
got me curious so I looked up the PDR listing. Flagyl will kill both
anaerobic and obligate aerobic gram negative and positive bacteria and
protozoans like trichomonas, entamoeba, giardia, and hexamita
(hexamita's not in PDR of course). Since anaerobic bacterial infections
are probably not the problem, I'd add something like oxytetracycline or
kaynamycin to target a broader range of bacteria if the metronidazole
doesn't work after a few days.

Max, what wort of cyst comes and goes like Mandy is describing and isn't
ich? Harmless lymphocystus can look like ich, but I thought those
stayed around longer than a few days and didn't spread to other fish.
You got me curious. Do tell!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

NetMax

February 5th 05, 10:07 PM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Mandy" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>>Okay, this evening, female blue ram has only two spots (somehow lost
>>>two) but now the male ram has one spot on both pectoral fins. His
>>>spots are whitish. Hers might look more yellow because one is on her
>>>colorful body and the other one is on her colorful dorsal fin.
>>>
>>>Either way, they're parasites, right? So here's my plan - I try
>>>soaking defrosted blood worms in metronidazole for a few hours and
>>>treat everybody. Except the Angel who won't eat. For her I just wait
>>>until the heater arrives and then put her into quarantine and treat
>>>the
>>>water and hope somehow the medicine gets inside her.
>>>
>>>Is this a good plan? Will I find metronidazole at any local lfs or
>>>should I call around.
>>>
>>>Hope someone reads this!
>>
>>
>>
>> I like using freeze-dried tubifex worms for medicated foods. Mix
>> water and medication and crumble the worms in to soak up the slurry.
>> It sounds like a cyst on the Ram. Personally I wouldn't even treat it
>> at this point and would just monitor its progress. The medicated food
>> sounds like a good idea because of the Angelfish though. I have no
>> experience with metronidazole.
>
> Metronidazole = Flagyl and is used in humans for some bacterial and
> most protozoan diseases. I suggested it because we had such luck with
> it treating discus with intestinal parasites at store where I worked.
> You got me curious so I looked up the PDR listing. Flagyl will kill
> both anaerobic and obligate aerobic gram negative and positive bacteria
> and protozoans like trichomonas, entamoeba, giardia, and hexamita
> (hexamita's not in PDR of course). Since anaerobic bacterial
> infections are probably not the problem, I'd add something like
> oxytetracycline or kaynamycin to target a broader range of bacteria if
> the metronidazole doesn't work after a few days.
>
> Max, what wort of cyst comes and goes like Mandy is describing and
> isn't ich? Harmless lymphocystus can look like ich, but I thought
> those stayed around longer than a few days and didn't spread to other
> fish. You got me curious. Do tell!
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Thanks for the info on the metronidazole. I recall it being used for
HITH. It's one of the ingredients in Aquarium Pharmaceutical's General
Cure.

From Mandy's description, I got the impression that she discovered 3 and
later one had vanished. I've observed this in the trade. We tried to
stay on top of problems by having a log book per fish room and each tank
was assigned a couple of pages. This type of cyst would be logged and we
would not start immediate medications as it was not life threatening, and
for consistency we tried to have all medications started by 1 person.
Frequently when we would return to inspect these cysts, they would be
gone. I've no idea how prudent it was to leave them untreated, but we
had good motivation to not treat as it would quarantine the tank from
sale, and there was always some concern about their overexposure to
medications. Aggressive water changes, proper diet and husbandry can go
a long way to prevent and even cure various non-life threatening
ailments.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Elaine T

February 6th 05, 12:45 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>NetMax wrote:
>>
>>>"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Okay, this evening, female blue ram has only two spots (somehow lost
>>>>two) but now the male ram has one spot on both pectoral fins. His
>>>>spots are whitish. Hers might look more yellow because one is on her
>>>>colorful body and the other one is on her colorful dorsal fin.
>>>>
>>>>Either way, they're parasites, right? So here's my plan - I try
>>>>soaking defrosted blood worms in metronidazole for a few hours and
>>>>treat everybody. Except the Angel who won't eat. For her I just wait
>>>>until the heater arrives and then put her into quarantine and treat
>>>>the
>>>>water and hope somehow the medicine gets inside her.
>>>>
>>>>Is this a good plan? Will I find metronidazole at any local lfs or
>>>>should I call around.
>>>>
>>>>Hope someone reads this!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I like using freeze-dried tubifex worms for medicated foods. Mix
>>>water and medication and crumble the worms in to soak up the slurry.
>>>It sounds like a cyst on the Ram. Personally I wouldn't even treat it
>>>at this point and would just monitor its progress. The medicated food
>>>sounds like a good idea because of the Angelfish though. I have no
>>>experience with metronidazole.
>>
>>Metronidazole = Flagyl and is used in humans for some bacterial and
>>most protozoan diseases. I suggested it because we had such luck with
>>it treating discus with intestinal parasites at store where I worked.
>>You got me curious so I looked up the PDR listing. Flagyl will kill
>>both anaerobic and obligate aerobic gram negative and positive bacteria
>>and protozoans like trichomonas, entamoeba, giardia, and hexamita
>>(hexamita's not in PDR of course). Since anaerobic bacterial
>>infections are probably not the problem, I'd add something like
>>oxytetracycline or kaynamycin to target a broader range of bacteria if
>>the metronidazole doesn't work after a few days.
>>
>>Max, what wort of cyst comes and goes like Mandy is describing and
>>isn't ich? Harmless lymphocystus can look like ich, but I thought
>>those stayed around longer than a few days and didn't spread to other
>>fish. You got me curious. Do tell!
>>
>>--
>> __ Elaine T __
>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>
>
> Thanks for the info on the metronidazole. I recall it being used for
> HITH. It's one of the ingredients in Aquarium Pharmaceutical's General
> Cure.
>
> From Mandy's description, I got the impression that she discovered 3 and
> later one had vanished. I've observed this in the trade. We tried to
> stay on top of problems by having a log book per fish room and each tank
> was assigned a couple of pages. This type of cyst would be logged and we
> would not start immediate medications as it was not life threatening, and
> for consistency we tried to have all medications started by 1 person.
> Frequently when we would return to inspect these cysts, they would be
> gone. I've no idea how prudent it was to leave them untreated, but we
> had good motivation to not treat as it would quarantine the tank from
> sale, and there was always some concern about their overexposure to
> medications. Aggressive water changes, proper diet and husbandry can go
> a long way to prevent and even cure various non-life threatening
> ailments.

Hmm...makes a lot of sense. Thanks. I rarely medicate anything
immediately except ich or wounded cichlids. Guess I should change water
and watch and wait on cysts as well.

It's hard because not medicating has gotten me in trouble too, even with
scrupulous attention to stressors and water quality. It's amazing how
fast some infections (like ich or the heartbreaking mystery infecton
that killed my newly imported altums in the most perfect conditions I
could provide years ago) can run rampant in a fishtank when you're
unaware of a stressor or just plain unlucky.

I think you have an advantage in your store as well. IME well-run store
systems with a big biotower, in-line UV or ozone, and massive water
changes from bagging fish and cleaning gravel tend to have better water
than typical home aquaria.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

NetMax

February 6th 05, 02:21 AM

"Elaine T" wrote...
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Elaine T" wrote...
>>>NetMax wrote:
>>>>"Mandy" wrote
<snip>

>>>>
>>>>I like using freeze-dried tubifex worms for medicated foods. Mix
>>>>water and medication and crumble the worms in to soak up the slurry.
>>>>It sounds like a cyst on the Ram. Personally I wouldn't even treat
>>>>it at this point and would just monitor its progress. The medicated
>>>>food sounds like a good idea because of the Angelfish though. I have
>>>>no experience with metronidazole.
>>>
>>>Metronidazole = Flagyl and is used in humans for some bacterial and
>>>most protozoan diseases. I suggested it because we had such luck with
>>>it treating discus with intestinal parasites at store where I worked.
>>>You got me curious so I looked up the PDR listing. Flagyl will kill
>>>both anaerobic and obligate aerobic gram negative and positive
>>>bacteria and protozoans like trichomonas, entamoeba, giardia, and
>>>hexamita (hexamita's not in PDR of course). Since anaerobic bacterial
>>>infections are probably not the problem, I'd add something like
>>>oxytetracycline or kaynamycin to target a broader range of bacteria if
>>>the metronidazole doesn't work after a few days.
>>>
>>>Max, what wort of cyst comes and goes like Mandy is describing and
>>>isn't ich? Harmless lymphocystus can look like ich, but I thought
>>>those stayed around longer than a few days and didn't spread to other
>>>fish. You got me curious. Do tell!
>>>
>>>--
>>> __ Elaine T __
>>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info on the metronidazole. I recall it being used for
>> HITH. It's one of the ingredients in Aquarium Pharmaceutical's
>> General Cure.
>>
>> From Mandy's description, I got the impression that she discovered 3
>> and later one had vanished. I've observed this in the trade. We
>> tried to stay on top of problems by having a log book per fish room
>> and each tank was assigned a couple of pages. This type of cyst would
>> be logged and we would not start immediate medications as it was not
>> life threatening, and for consistency we tried to have all medications
>> started by 1 person. Frequently when we would return to inspect these
>> cysts, they would be gone. I've no idea how prudent it was to leave
>> them untreated, but we had good motivation to not treat as it would
>> quarantine the tank from sale, and there was always some concern about
>> their overexposure to medications. Aggressive water changes, proper
>> diet and husbandry can go a long way to prevent and even cure various
>> non-life threatening ailments.
>
> Hmm...makes a lot of sense. Thanks. I rarely medicate anything
> immediately except ich or wounded cichlids. Guess I should change
> water and watch and wait on cysts as well.
>
> It's hard because not medicating has gotten me in trouble too, even
> with scrupulous attention to stressors and water quality. It's amazing
> how fast some infections (like ich or the heartbreaking mystery
> infecton that killed my newly imported altums in the most perfect
> conditions I could provide years ago) can run rampant in a fishtank
> when you're unaware of a stressor or just plain unlucky.
>
> I think you have an advantage in your store as well. IME well-run
> store systems with a big biotower, in-line UV or ozone, and massive
> water changes from bagging fish and cleaning gravel tend to have better
> water than typical home aquaria.

Actually, I often do not treat for Ich, especially with larger fish. The
stores really have a hard time. Our best system used individual
bio-towers and massive water changes, but the place was still a time
bomb. With 3rd world deliveries into about 15% of the tanks 2 or 3 times
a week, the chance of diseases was basically 100%. We practiced
isolation between tanks, so every one of over 150 tanks had its own net
and algae scrub, and during the daily gravel vacuuming we would skip any
tanks which were the least bit suspect, but all it took was for someone
to return a net to the wrong tank and there was a cross-contamination.
For all the training and extra effort, we just stayed on top of it. You
can imagine what an LFS is like where they do not practice disease
control like a religion. I can tell you.. ... but I won't. I've said it
before, the best way to ruin this hobby is to try to make a living out of
it commercially (the disease aspect is brutal), and you don't want to
ever spend a week working at a department store fish dept, trust me on
that one.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Mandy

February 6th 05, 02:31 AM

Yeah, extensive research has me convinced that this is ich on my rams
so I have to treat the entire tank. As for fluctuations - between day
and night the temp fluctuates 2 degrees. That might have something
to do with the lights but I don't know what I can do about it.

I don't want to use anything with malachite green and formulin if I can
avoid it - I've read some pretty bad stuff about it. I can treat the
whole tank with Metronizadole crystals which is supposed to help with
both internal and external parasites but I really need to know if that
med is going to hurt my otos, cardinals and plants.

God I hate this. I've done so much research my head is spinning and I
feel like I barely know a thing more than I did when I started. I have
pictures in my head of thousands of little baby ich things looking for
a fish to host upon. I woke up from nightmares this morning that the
otos were covered with white powder, head to toe. I changed 20% of the
water again, trying to vacuum up the ich that fell off my girl, and
then I had to go to work. So another day with no meds. They all look
so happy and hungry and curious, I've got pearling and last week had
spawning, how can this be an unhealthy tank? ??

I'm so stressed out that I'M going to break out in Ich spots any moment
now... If I get thru this without losses I'm never going to add
anything ever again to that tank. :(

Elaine T

February 6th 05, 03:16 AM

Mandy wrote:
> Yeah, extensive research has me convinced that this is ich on my rams
> so I have to treat the entire tank. As for fluctuations - between day
> and night the temp fluctuates 2 degrees. That might have something
> to do with the lights but I don't know what I can do about it.
>
> I don't want to use anything with malachite green and formulin if I can
> avoid it - I've read some pretty bad stuff about it. I can treat the
> whole tank with Metronizadole crystals which is supposed to help with
> both internal and external parasites but I really need to know if that
> med is going to hurt my otos, cardinals and plants.
>
> God I hate this. I've done so much research my head is spinning and I
> feel like I barely know a thing more than I did when I started. I have
> pictures in my head of thousands of little baby ich things looking for
> a fish to host upon. I woke up from nightmares this morning that the
> otos were covered with white powder, head to toe. I changed 20% of the
> water again, trying to vacuum up the ich that fell off my girl, and
> then I had to go to work. So another day with no meds. They all look
> so happy and hungry and curious, I've got pearling and last week had
> spawning, how can this be an unhealthy tank? ??
>
> I'm so stressed out that I'M going to break out in Ich spots any moment
> now... If I get thru this without losses I'm never going to add
> anything ever again to that tank. :(
>
Take a deep breath and don't panic. Definately don't dump a bunch of
metronidazole into your tank yet!!! Heaven only knows what it would do
to your filter bacteria. First, read what NetMax said about cysts
earlier and then this article he referred me to.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

NetMax has convinced me that ich is not the dread killer I thought it
was. I lost a bunch of fish to it once, but I was a noob and there were
probably water problems that I was unaware of.

Can you use blocks or something and raise your lights higher above your
canopy or hood so air can circulate under them? That should help fix
the 2 degree temp swing you have from day to night.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Mandy

February 7th 05, 08:06 PM

Hey again,

So My LFS convinced me that I do have a very mild case of Ich going on
in there and gave me Aquarisol as something that wouldn't hurt my
bacteria, plants, tetras or otos. He did say not to raise the temp to
85 or take the carbon out. It's been in there for a little over two
weeks so I doubt it's all that effective anyway right now.

I tried to fix it with water changes but woke up today to quite a few
more white spots than Saturday (had none yesterday) so I went ahead and
dosed with the Aquarisol.

LFS was not convinced the Angel has parasites. He gave me live worms
and told me that while Omega flake food is good stuff, a lot of fish
won't eat it. He gave me regular tetramin stuff to try. I fed the
live worms today and the starving angel ate like a COW. None of the
fish will leave the feeding ring now. lol

So panic is over for the day. If the rams get worse ich then I'll
start freaking out again. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the help!

Mandy

February 8th 05, 07:30 PM

Well my mild case is looking a lot less mild today. Rams are covered
in spots and I'm an idiot for not dealing with it sooner. Should have
been medicating the moment the first few spots showed up and fell off.

Thankfully no one is showing signs of distress. Well, Angelis is
hiding in the hornwort but she's probably bothered by the meds and the
heat, which I did raise to 85 last night when I saw the rams were
getting worse. I think a few cardinals might have a spot on their
fins, too, now. The rams rub against plants, of course, but everyone
is eating pigishly and with the exception of Angeles, no one is hiding
or acting weird. The Angels have no sign of spots, either. Worried
for my little otos but I hardly ever see more than two at once now.
Fat little puppies have grown so fast!

I don't know how long to give the aquarisol to work. My understanding
is that it doesn't really work on the visible cysts but rather once
they fall off and hatch free swimmers. damn damn damn

Elaine T

February 8th 05, 10:49 PM

Mandy wrote:
> Well my mild case is looking a lot less mild today. Rams are covered
> in spots and I'm an idiot for not dealing with it sooner. Should have
> been medicating the moment the first few spots showed up and fell off.
>
>
> Thankfully no one is showing signs of distress. Well, Angelis is
> hiding in the hornwort but she's probably bothered by the meds and the
> heat, which I did raise to 85 last night when I saw the rams were
> getting worse. I think a few cardinals might have a spot on their
> fins, too, now. The rams rub against plants, of course, but everyone
> is eating pigishly and with the exception of Angeles, no one is hiding
> or acting weird. The Angels have no sign of spots, either. Worried
> for my little otos but I hardly ever see more than two at once now.
> Fat little puppies have grown so fast!
>
> I don't know how long to give the aquarisol to work. My understanding
> is that it doesn't really work on the visible cysts but rather once
> they fall off and hatch free swimmers. damn damn damn
>

My understanding is that the heat will do more than Aquarisol. Are you
adding salt? I think the magic combo is supposed to be both heat and
salt - worked for my ram. Your tank should fare better than mine if you
add the salt slowly, since I had been using formalin/malachite. I added
3 tsp/5 gallons at once, and the next 2 tsp 8 hours later. Then took
temps up faster than I intended due to a new heater and lost fish. You
might start with 1 tsp/5 gallons and watch for a day before adding more.

Fair warning - from heat and salt my crypts are melting now and java
fern is going brown even though I've been slowly reducing the heat and
salt for the past 5 days. They'll grow back, of course, but don't be
surprised if your plants aren't happy with the heat and any salt you add.

Oh - Did you get your lights up higher from the surface of the water so
the temps are more stable?

And don't kick yourself - tickle NetMax 'til he sez Uncle for telling
you to wait and see instead. *grin* Ich sucks.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Mandy

February 8th 05, 11:48 PM

I ended up turning off the lights for now. The whole issue of blocks
would be strange because it's an Eclipse. Can't really do that
permanently. Haven't done the salt thing because it was my
understanding that Angels can't take the salt. I dunno...

You know, if you read 10 different articles on treating Ich, you get
ten different cures...

I'm going to stick with what I'm doing (Aquarisol) unless someone can
give me a good reason not to. It's copper but supposedly gentle enough
for my plants and fish. Only the one Angel who has always been sickly
is having any problem right now and she's not too bad - just in hiding.
At least she comes out to eat and she's doesn't have any spots.

The whole cure is supposed to take some time, is it not? Is it unusual
to look worse before it looks better? Or should I be panicking? I've
also had Ich Guard II suggested. I just don't know!!!

Should I treat with an antibiotic when this is over to avoid secondary
infections from the cysts on their skin?

This wasn't supposed to happen. :(

Elaine T

February 9th 05, 12:16 AM

Mandy wrote:
> I ended up turning off the lights for now. The whole issue of blocks
> would be strange because it's an Eclipse. Can't really do that
> permanently. Haven't done the salt thing because it was my
> understanding that Angels can't take the salt. I dunno...
>
> You know, if you read 10 different articles on treating Ich, you get
> ten different cures...
>
> I'm going to stick with what I'm doing (Aquarisol) unless someone can
> give me a good reason not to. It's copper but supposedly gentle enough
> for my plants and fish. Only the one Angel who has always been sickly
> is having any problem right now and she's not too bad - just in hiding.
> At least she comes out to eat and she's doesn't have any spots.
>
> The whole cure is supposed to take some time, is it not? Is it unusual
> to look worse before it looks better? Or should I be panicking? I've
> also had Ich Guard II suggested. I just don't know!!!
>
> Should I treat with an antibiotic when this is over to avoid secondary
> infections from the cysts on their skin?
>
> This wasn't supposed to happen. :(
>
The whole cure will take some time. The spots take a couple of days to
mature and fall off. Supposedly at 85 degrees, they can't reproduce and
you're done, so keep your fingers crossed. I think you get 10 different
cures from 10 articles because there are so many ways to kill the
parasite and the fish fight it off of themselves anyway.

You'll know when it's time to panic because the affected fish will be
scratching against tank decorations, covered with spots, possibly
gilling hard, and getting lethargic. A few spots really don't hurt the
fish. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php has a picture of a
clown loach with ich that would have me panicked.

Ick Guard II is formalin. I thought you didn't want to go the
formalin/malachite green route. If you do decide to use it, dose
lightly because of your high temps.

And no, don't treat with an antibiotic! The cleanest water and least
stressful tank conditions you can provide is the best way to heal a
fish's skin and fins. Antibiotics kill the bacteria in your filter,
leading to ammonia and nitrite problems, often decrease available oxygen
in the water, and can themselves irritate the skin and gills. The time
to use an antibiotic is when a fish has a definate bacterial infection
that you've been unable to heal with clean water and removal of stressors.

Some people swear by Stress Coat, which has aloe in it and claims to
help fish maintain their slime coat. I've never seen a fish hurt by it,
but never been able to tell whether it helped either. I don't use it
myself since it's just something else in the water.

Fish diseases are never supposed to happen, but they're sometimes the
unfortunate consequence of trying to keep a fish in 4 glass walls.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Mandy

February 9th 05, 01:20 AM

Right, I didn't want to use the malachite green stuff. but now I've
had so much different advice I don't know what's what anymore!.

So I'll stick to what I'm doing and see what happens. Cross fingers!
and thanks for your patience in going over all this with me. I'm brain
dead now.l

Mandy

February 9th 05, 01:59 AM

NetMax - I have noticed your absence!

I will definitely look into ph issues. diy co2 might be the prob.

Soooo sad....

steve

February 9th 05, 02:42 PM

Elaine T wrote:
> Mandy wrote:
> > I ended up turning off the lights for now. The whole issue of
blocks
> > would be strange because it's an Eclipse. Can't really do that
> > permanently. Haven't done the salt thing because it was my
> > understanding that Angels can't take the salt. I dunno...
> >
> > You know, if you read 10 different articles on treating Ich, you
get
> > ten different cures...

And I see that as good news. Since there are 10 different ways to kill
ich, it means there are several effective methods. So, as you already
have, pick one and go with it. I would not suggest trying all ten
methods at once.

> >

> > The whole cure is supposed to take some time, is it not? Is it
unusual
> > to look worse before it looks better? Or should I be panicking?
I've
> > also had Ich Guard II suggested. I just don't know!!!

That's the hardest part, just not knowing. And that's how we learn
about this stuff, by experience. Just think, in a year, you'll be able
to advise "Candy" the newbie, on how to treat ich and tell her about
your ich from hell back in "ought 5."

take care my fishy friend. We're all here pulling for you and your
fish.

steve

steve

February 9th 05, 02:48 PM

Mandy wrote:
> I ended up turning off the lights for now. The whole issue of blocks
> would be strange because it's an Eclipse. Can't really do that
> permanently.

I seriously don't think your lights are a problem. A 2 degree swing a
day, every day, isn't going to make fish sick. Ich comes on when the
temp drops drastically, like down to 70 or lower, because someone
doesn't turn their heater back on after cleaning.

The only reason I'd consider trying to cool your lights would be to let
some heat escape to add longevity to the tubes and ballast. Your hobby
buddy with a small pin router in his dremel could make some nice clean
vents in the left and right sides of your hood that would let all the
heat escape.

just a thought,
steve

Mandy

February 9th 05, 05:01 PM

Thanks Steve. It's nice that someone is out their listening. God
knows my roommate thinks I'm overdramatic and possibly nuts.

Elvis looks terrible today, Priscilla looks a tad better. You'd never
know they were sick from their behaviour tho - the spawned again
yesterday evening!

Imagine my shock.

And Angelis, the once starving angel, is going to get fat. She's no
longer in hiding, prefering to just hang out under the the feeding
ring, waiting for live worms.

Fish are a constant surprise!

steve

February 10th 05, 02:59 PM

Mandy wrote:
> Thanks Steve. It's nice that someone is out their listening. God
> knows my roommate thinks I'm overdramatic and possibly nuts.
>
> Elvis looks terrible today, Priscilla looks a tad better. You'd
never
> know they were sick from their behaviour tho - the spawned again
> yesterday evening!
>
> Imagine my shock.
>
> And Angelis, the once starving angel, is going to get fat. She's no
> longer in hiding, prefering to just hang out under the the feeding
> ring, waiting for live worms.
>
> Fish are a constant surprise!

Good news about Angelis! Sometimes it's hard pleasing those finicky
females... :)

Just because Elvis is spawning doesn't mean he's healthy. Males can
spawn right up until death. It's just something we do! :)

No, really, I bet Elvis will be fine. And if the current disfigurement
is permanent, just change is name to Clay or something!

We're all pullin' for ya,
steve

Mandy

February 10th 05, 06:01 PM

HAHAH of course, you're right. I mean about males spawning until death
- at least they try!

Elvis looks much better today so all should be well with the world but
I guess Priscilla ate the eggs or dissed him for the pock marks or
something because this morning he was chasing her around the tank in a
very unamorous way. Poor thing could not get a way. I watched a few
times when she found good spots to hide, and even helped her by
distracting him, but he wouldn't let her near the worms and I can't
really figure out what he wants because he doesn't stop chasing even
when she's "home".

Oh well. At least they're getting better and I was able to acheive it
with the mild Aquarisol so my cardinals and otos are fine, plants are
dandy. Sigh of relief!

Elaine T

February 10th 05, 10:02 PM

Mandy wrote:
> HAHAH of course, you're right. I mean about males spawning until death
> - at least they try!
>
> Elvis looks much better today so all should be well with the world but
> I guess Priscilla ate the eggs or dissed him for the pock marks or
> something because this morning he was chasing her around the tank in a
> very unamorous way. Poor thing could not get a way. I watched a few
> times when she found good spots to hide, and even helped her by
> distracting him, but he wouldn't let her near the worms and I can't
> really figure out what he wants because he doesn't stop chasing even
> when she's "home".
>
> Oh well. At least they're getting better and I was able to acheive it
> with the mild Aquarisol so my cardinals and otos are fine, plants are
> dandy. Sigh of relief!
>
Way to go, Mandy! Be sure and keep the heat and aquarisol going until a
few days after all the spots are gone. That way all the swarmers die as
they try to find new hosts. Die, swarmers, die! (Not very Buddhist of
me, eh?)

Sometimes if cichlids are chasing too badly, adding a bunch more hiding
places helps. Cheap temporary hiding places are short pieces of
drinking water grade PVC pipe, piles of found rocks (careful of water
hardening minerals), or pieces of clay flowerpot. I remember you have a
ton of plants, so PVC might be easiest to squeeze into the tank between
plants. It's kinda ugly but it works great because it makes a
comforting, dark tunnel for the chasee.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Mandy

February 12th 05, 02:26 AM

Damn I wish I had read this earlier.... My heater sucks. It was
getting above 85, even leaving lights out so I lowered it and it sorta
evened out around 81. Ich back in swarms, it's on the cardinals now,
too. Only the Angels and otos have been spared and that's only to the
naked eye...

Set up the quarantine tank to give the female ram a break and to try
another med on her, since I didn't have to worry about plants. Got it
all set up, perfect temp, threw some bio-spira in there since I had
it... didn't medicate tho since I already medicated all of them this
morning. She was in there about half an hour, seemed in shock which is
probably reasonalbe when I thought, hmmm what was that about pH?

damn damn damn damn damn damn

pH in main tank is 7.0, pH in quarantine (out of the tap but
conditioned for clorine and cloramines) is 7.6. As if the poor thing
wasn't sick and stressed enough.

So basically I've probably killed her. I put her back in the main tank
where the male proceeded to chase her around again. will find some pvc
tomorrow but I doubt she'll make it thru the night. I hate myself.
And I probably found the reason why they got ich in the first place,
right? weekly 50% water changes with grossly different pH.

Someone just tell me why my next door neighbor, who has FOUR full sized
gouramis in a ten gallon tank with plastic plants, who monthly puts
them in a bucket and cleans the whole tank including the gravel in the
bathtub so the tank must be constantly cycling, doesn't lose fish?

And now what do I do? I mean, I live in Los Angeles - there are
thousands of people with fish tanks who do not do one tenth the
research or care one one hundredth as much as I do about their fish who
pour LA water right in their tanks. I guarantee the majority of people
do not condition the pH of the water they do water changes with. I
mean, I wouldn't even know HOW.

My plants are beautiful. I think maybe next week when all the fish are
dead I'll just have a water garden. I AM SO DEPRESSED.

NetMax

February 12th 05, 04:29 AM

"Mandy" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Damn I wish I had read this earlier.... My heater sucks. It was
> getting above 85, even leaving lights out so I lowered it and it sorta
> evened out around 81. Ich back in swarms, it's on the cardinals now,
> too. Only the Angels and otos have been spared and that's only to the
> naked eye...
>
> Set up the quarantine tank to give the female ram a break and to try
> another med on her, since I didn't have to worry about plants. Got it
> all set up, perfect temp, threw some bio-spira in there since I had
> it... didn't medicate tho since I already medicated all of them this
> morning. She was in there about half an hour, seemed in shock which is
> probably reasonalbe when I thought, hmmm what was that about pH?
>
> damn damn damn damn damn damn
>
> pH in main tank is 7.0, pH in quarantine (out of the tap but
> conditioned for clorine and cloramines) is 7.6. As if the poor thing
> wasn't sick and stressed enough.
>
> So basically I've probably killed her. I put her back in the main tank
> where the male proceeded to chase her around again. will find some pvc
> tomorrow but I doubt she'll make it thru the night. I hate myself.
> And I probably found the reason why they got ich in the first place,
> right? weekly 50% water changes with grossly different pH.
>
> Someone just tell me why my next door neighbor, who has FOUR full sized
> gouramis in a ten gallon tank with plastic plants, who monthly puts
> them in a bucket and cleans the whole tank including the gravel in the
> bathtub so the tank must be constantly cycling, doesn't lose fish?

Sorry to hear that you are having such a bad run. For your neighbor's
tank, the only thing I can think of is that with large frequent changes,
the source water and tank water are very similar, so there is less water
shock. Plastic plants become your filters as they are coated with
bacteria (though how effective they are is a whole new discussion), and
the fish are stable. Stabilized fish can go through a lot of abuse. It
does take about 4-6 month of problem-free living under reasonably good
conditions for your fish to become 'stablized' and eerily immune to many
of our mistakes. This is where you hear bizarre stories which cannot be
repeated. Basically it matches a group who cannot kill their fish with
neglect, against a group who love and tweak their fish to an early grave.
The ideal is a happy medium between those extremes.

> And now what do I do? I mean, I live in Los Angeles - there are
> thousands of people with fish tanks who do not do one tenth the
> research or care one one hundredth as much as I do about their fish who
> pour LA water right in their tanks. I guarantee the majority of people
> do not condition the pH of the water they do water changes with. I
> mean, I wouldn't even know HOW.

This is where there is a lot to be said about leaving the water alone as
much as possible, but in your case, the CO2 was for the plants. Perhaps
the introduction of the CO2 could have been done later?

> My plants are beautiful. I think maybe next week when all the fish are
> dead I'll just have a water garden. I AM SO DEPRESSED.

You know that we would help any way we could, (but LA is a little out of
my way). We are here for ya, Mandy. This is a sport of patience
(especially to get started), and with all you have learned through
research, it will be a breeze once you are past the LA LFS diseases.
Sorry, I'm not being very inspirational. I'll let Elaine take over.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Elaine T

February 12th 05, 08:28 AM

NetMax wrote:
> "Mandy" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>
>>Damn I wish I had read this earlier.... My heater sucks. It was
>>getting above 85, even leaving lights out so I lowered it and it sorta
>>evened out around 81. Ich back in swarms, it's on the cardinals now,
>>too. Only the Angels and otos have been spared and that's only to the
>>naked eye...
>>
>>Set up the quarantine tank to give the female ram a break and to try
>>another med on her, since I didn't have to worry about plants. Got it
>>all set up, perfect temp, threw some bio-spira in there since I had
>>it... didn't medicate tho since I already medicated all of them this
>>morning. She was in there about half an hour, seemed in shock which is
>>probably reasonalbe when I thought, hmmm what was that about pH?
>>
>>damn damn damn damn damn damn
>>
>>pH in main tank is 7.0, pH in quarantine (out of the tap but
>>conditioned for clorine and cloramines) is 7.6. As if the poor thing
>>wasn't sick and stressed enough.
>>
>>So basically I've probably killed her. I put her back in the main tank
>>where the male proceeded to chase her around again. will find some pvc
>>tomorrow but I doubt she'll make it thru the night. I hate myself.
>>And I probably found the reason why they got ich in the first place,
>>right? weekly 50% water changes with grossly different pH.
>>
>>Someone just tell me why my next door neighbor, who has FOUR full sized
>>gouramis in a ten gallon tank with plastic plants, who monthly puts
>>them in a bucket and cleans the whole tank including the gravel in the
>>bathtub so the tank must be constantly cycling, doesn't lose fish?
>
>
> Sorry to hear that you are having such a bad run. For your neighbor's
> tank, the only thing I can think of is that with large frequent changes,
> the source water and tank water are very similar, so there is less water
> shock. Plastic plants become your filters as they are coated with
> bacteria (though how effective they are is a whole new discussion), and
> the fish are stable. Stabilized fish can go through a lot of abuse. It
> does take about 4-6 month of problem-free living under reasonably good
> conditions for your fish to become 'stablized' and eerily immune to many
> of our mistakes. This is where you hear bizarre stories which cannot be
> repeated. Basically it matches a group who cannot kill their fish with
> neglect, against a group who love and tweak their fish to an early grave.
> The ideal is a happy medium between those extremes.
>
>
>>And now what do I do? I mean, I live in Los Angeles - there are
>>thousands of people with fish tanks who do not do one tenth the
>>research or care one one hundredth as much as I do about their fish who
>>pour LA water right in their tanks. I guarantee the majority of people
>>do not condition the pH of the water they do water changes with. I
>>mean, I wouldn't even know HOW.
>
>
> This is where there is a lot to be said about leaving the water alone as
> much as possible, but in your case, the CO2 was for the plants. Perhaps
> the introduction of the CO2 could have been done later?
>
>
>>My plants are beautiful. I think maybe next week when all the fish are
>>dead I'll just have a water garden. I AM SO DEPRESSED.
>
>
> You know that we would help any way we could, (but LA is a little out of
> my way). We are here for ya, Mandy. This is a sport of patience
> (especially to get started), and with all you have learned through
> research, it will be a breeze once you are past the LA LFS diseases.
> Sorry, I'm not being very inspirational. I'll let Elaine take over.

As if I know what to say...

Well, first, if you found the problem, that's good news! And there's no
need for an aquatic garden. I'm sure everybody here has had a wipeout
at some time or another and it does indeed suck. Unfortunately,
sometimes this is an unforgiving hobby. But your fish aren't even dead
yet. "I'm not dead...I'm getting better." "No you're not, you'll be
stone dead in a moment."

I'm thinking it's time for formalin/malachite green since the spots are
spreading and you had to lower temps. I know it's toxic, but from what
I've read 81 degrees is too low for killing ich. Does your research
agree? Until my recent troubles, Quick Cure had always worked and it
doesn't hurt plants or your bio filter. I've treated tanks with
cardinals and they can tolerate 3/4 of the dose. (If you don't add salt
and get the tank too warm with a new, untested heater. *thwaps self*)
Be sure to remove your carbon before you use it.

Also, your little female ram might just make it yet. My ram did - s/he
(not sure yet) is the only fish that survived my ich debacle. Most
cichlids are very sturdy, and even the more sensitive ones like rams and
discus will surprise you sometimes. The PVC should help - if she's
still around tomorrow, I'd add at least 10 pieces if not more. You want
enough so the male gets confused as to where the female went. And when
you take it back out, watch out for otos suckered onto the insides. ;-)

Funny to read that you're in LA. I'm in San Diego. My water is
currently pH 7.8, GH 14, 15 ppm nitrates, reeks of chlorine, tastes
awful, and leaves scale on everything. Frankly, I think our water
sucks. Since my tanks are tiny, I collect rainwater or buy 25
cent/gallon Glacier vending machine RO water and mix that half with the
tapwater. Hauling around that much RO water is not really practical for
you, unfortunately. I wonder how your nitrates would be changing 25% of
the water instead of 50% each week? Often 25% a week is plenty to
maintain a planted tank and doesn't cause such big changes in water
parameters. You might also try pouring in small amounts of water over a
long enough period that your fish don't get shocked and your CO2 can
keep the pH down.

We're all pulling for you and your fish. Hang in there!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Ozdude

February 12th 05, 03:04 PM

> I'm thinking it's time for formalin/malachite green since the spots are
> spreading and you had to lower temps. I know it's toxic, but from what
> I've read 81 degrees is too low for killing ich. Does your research
> agree? Until my recent troubles, Quick Cure had always worked and it
> doesn't hurt plants or your bio filter. I've treated tanks with cardinals
> and they can tolerate 3/4 of the dose. (If you don't add salt and get the
> tank too warm with a new, untested heater. *thwaps self*) Be sure to
> remove your carbon before you use it.

I was perusing a Thai Betta web site
(http://www.siamsbestbettas.com/diseases.html) last evening and it kept
going on about the dried leaves of the Indian Almond Tree (also known as
Ketapung or Huu Kwang). It recommends them for all bacterial infections,
mites and parasites in fish and plants and they say it's one of aquaria's
great unknown natural treatments.

Humans can also ingest various parts of the tree to cure a barrage of
ailments.

There is an Indian supermarket near me which I'm going to check out for
these leaves and I will report back on the sucess or not of using them. If
it gets this white thing off the bottom lip of one of my female Serpae then
I'll be over the moon.

Someone suggested here that it might be a parasite on my fish, but I'im
really not sure what it is. She's feeding and mating as normal and her
colour is a healthy flaming orange, so it's got me what it might be.

There is also a plant (tree) that is native to Oz called the Melaleuca
(Melaleuca exuvia) (pronounced Mella-luke-a), which I believe is a pest
plant in the Florida Everglades, but I just discovered that it's one of the
main ingredients in AP's MelaFix, so perhaps this Oz tree has the same sort
of action as the Indian Almond?

The site info on the Almond treatment states that it will turn the water
brown and drop the pH a bit, but in the case of Tetras, Gouramis, some
Cichlids and Bettas, it could also cause a spawning, seeing it makes "black
water".

Like I said, if I can source it, I'll check it out and get back to y'all
about it - I like natural products for tanks - they usually cost less too ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Angrie.Woman

February 12th 05, 05:17 PM

Mandy

February 13th 05, 12:54 AM

Thanks you guys, thanks so much for your support.
Going to use Quick Cure. Off to the store now.

I have the heat back up to about 85 - should Ieave it there? I can't
mix meds and I've been using aquarisol. Given all my various issues,
would a brand new carbon filter cartridge remove all the copper and
crap over night or do I need to do a huge water change and how much?
I'm not using any filter right now, just have the water moving thru to
the bio wheel.

What exactly do you recommend for me to get the quick cure in there as
quickly as possible?

By the way - my co2 hasn't been working for almost a week. Think it
might be the bogwood bringing the pH down?

Elaine - the rams have mended their fences and are in love again.
Imagine that! She looks a lot better than she did yesterday. Poor
Elvis looks he fell into a vat of powder...

Thanks again for your help, my friends. Let's concentrate on the next
step - how do I best change from Aquarisol to quick cure?

Elaine T

February 13th 05, 10:12 AM

Mandy wrote:
> Thanks you guys, thanks so much for your support.
> Going to use Quick Cure. Off to the store now.
>
> I have the heat back up to about 85 - should Ieave it there? I can't
> mix meds and I've been using aquarisol. Given all my various issues,
> would a brand new carbon filter cartridge remove all the copper and
> crap over night or do I need to do a huge water change and how much?
> I'm not using any filter right now, just have the water moving thru to
> the bio wheel.
>
> What exactly do you recommend for me to get the quick cure in there as
> quickly as possible?
>
> By the way - my co2 hasn't been working for almost a week. Think it
> might be the bogwood bringing the pH down?
>
> Elaine - the rams have mended their fences and are in love again.
> Imagine that! She looks a lot better than she did yesterday. Poor
> Elvis looks he fell into a vat of powder...
>
> Thanks again for your help, my friends. Let's concentrate on the next
> step - how do I best change from Aquarisol to quick cure?
>

Yes, carbon filter overnight, lower temps back to 80 (formalin is more
toxic at high temps), change only 25% of the water to avoid stressing
anyone, and use 3/4 of a dose of quick cure. BTW, I've used one dose of
Aquarisol with Quick Cure and not had a problem.

Watch Elvis closely. If he starts gilling hard and acting lethargic the
parasites are in his gills and you need to be more aggressive. Move him
to quarantine with water from the main tank, aerate, and treat him with
any sort of non-iodized salt. Grocery store kosher salt, pickling salt,
rock salt, or aquarium salt are all fine. Start at 1 tsp/gallon, add 1
tsp/gallon that evenining, and a third the next day for a total of 3
tsp/gallon. When you change water, add back salt as well. Leave the
salt until spots are gone for 5 or 6 days. To move him back out of
quarantine, you'll have to gradually lower the salt with small water
changes.

Your low pH without CO2 is most likely from a lack of carbonate
buffering (KH) in the water. Carbon hungry plants can pull dissolved
carbonates out of the water, drop KH, and make the water very
susceptible to pH changes from lack of buffering. The pH of tank water
tends to go down, so pH usually drops when kH is low rather than rising.
If you have a kH test kit, see what the kH is in your tank. It needs
to be around 5 dKH for good buffering.

The water change will put some carbonates back but start monitoring your
pH even if you don't have a KH test kit. Ideally, don't change anything
until your fish are well. However, if the pH is actually falling, add
1/2 tsp of baking soda dissolved in some water (your tank IS 37 gal,
right?). Wait a day and add 1/2 tsp more. This is enough to raise KH
about 2 degrees and should prevent a crash. If you have a test kit,
keep adding daily until you've gotten to 5 dKH, or wherever you want to
be for your DIY CO2.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Mandy

February 13th 05, 05:36 PM

THANK YOU. I have a KH test kit. I'm going to do all of the above,
exactly. I'll let you know how it goes.

One question - if I have to move Elvis into quarantine for salt
treatment, do I also use the quick cure in that tank? If not, do I
slowly raise temp again?

I'll keep you guys updated.

ps - everyone is still alive... And they're STILL eating like pigs. I
call that "hope". :)

Elaine T

February 13th 05, 07:26 PM

Mandy wrote:
> THANK YOU. I have a KH test kit. I'm going to do all of the above,
> exactly. I'll let you know how it goes.
>
> One question - if I have to move Elvis into quarantine for salt
> treatment, do I also use the quick cure in that tank? If not, do I
> slowly raise temp again?
>
> I'll keep you guys updated.
>
> ps - everyone is still alive... And they're STILL eating like pigs. I
> call that "hope". :)
>
The salt itself should kill ich swarmers once you're up to 3 tsp/gallon.
Since you would use the main tank water Elvis is used to to set up
quarantine, there will be Quick Cure in the water. Hopefully he won't
have to go to quarantine anyway.

Active, eating fish definately means they're holding their own.

Did I remember to tell you the Quick Cure (or any formalin/malachite ich
med) needs 4 extra treatments 3 days apart with a water change before
each treatment once spots are gone? That keeps killing swarmers as they
hatch into the tank water and prevents recurrences.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Mandy

February 15th 05, 11:39 PM

So today is Day Three. I last saw my babies this morning when I dosed
and fed them. They looked MUCH better. I expect to see an improvement
again when I get home tonight.

Yay!

So if I understand you correctly, Elaine, as today is 2/15, I should
plan to dose for another three days beginning on 2/19? That's 2/16,
2/17, 2/18 without meds. I can put a new filter cartrige in? I have
no filter in there now, since the carbon is sewn into the Eclipse
filter cartriges. But then when I redose, I take out the new cartridge
- can I save it and put it in again after the following three days?
How should I do that?

Thanks!

Elaine T

February 16th 05, 12:21 AM

Mandy wrote:
> So today is Day Three. I last saw my babies this morning when I dosed
> and fed them. They looked MUCH better. I expect to see an improvement
> again when I get home tonight.
>
> Yay!
>
> So if I understand you correctly, Elaine, as today is 2/15, I should
> plan to dose for another three days beginning on 2/19? That's 2/16,
> 2/17, 2/18 without meds. I can put a new filter cartrige in? I have
> no filter in there now, since the carbon is sewn into the Eclipse
> filter cartriges. But then when I redose, I take out the new cartridge
> - can I save it and put it in again after the following three days?
> How should I do that?
>
> Thanks!
>
Yay! I'm so glad they're looking better.

Leave the carbon out. That's why I hate filters like Eclipses - not
enough control over your filtration. Get a sponge (like an aquaclear
sponge) from your fish store, cut a hole in it, and put it on the filter
intake to give some mechanical filtration if you need it. The meds will
break down - especially the formalin, but you need them in the water as
long as possible. Remember, you're not treating spots on the fish, but
killing free-swimming parasites in the water that are continually
hatching out of cysts on the glass and substrate.

Today is 2/15 and I assume you've been dosing daily? If there's still a
yellowish tinge to the water and very few spots, back down because 3
days of daily dosing should have enough medicine in the water. Don't
dose tomorrow and see if the spots aren't gone. If not, change at least
25% of the water and dose again on 2/17. At 80 degrees, they really
should be gone by then. If not, maybe add another half dose on 2/18.
As long as there are still spots, you are balancing toxicity against
killing parasites.

Once the spots are gone, I think you misunderstood me. You give 4 extra
doses, one on every third day to kill any swarmers that hatch from the
substrate. So for example if spots are gone on 2/18 then 2/21, 2/24,
2/27, and 3/2 would be your four doses. Then you finally get to put an
Eclipse cartridge with carbon in on 3/5.

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__ Elaine T __
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