PLEASE HELP. Sorry about the caps but this is urgent.

[Anthropy]

Please help.
We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
silvery \gold type colour.
We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
Brighton)
Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
experiencing this winter?
Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
Thanks.

[Rodney Pont]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:23:56 GMT, Anthropy wrote:

>Please help.
>We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
>and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
>they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
>silvery \gold type colour.
>We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
>off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
>fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
>bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
>There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
>bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
>Brighton)
>Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
>experiencing this winter?
>Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
>Thanks.

You need to check the water parameters, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and
ph. Take a sample of water with you and see if they can test it there
and if the ammonia is high you can buy something to bind it while you
are at the shop. Over 90% of fish deaths are due to poor water quality.
It's likely you will need to change quite a bit of water so get a
tapwater conditioner ready for that, you normally put it into the pond
before the fresh water so that it treats the water as it goes in.

Let us know how things go and what the water tests were.

I take it there isn't any filtration, if so what type is it and is it
clean? If it has a biological section you mustn't clean that in
tapwater since the clorine will kill the biobugs, rinse it in old pond
water. Do you have a pump/fountain to increase the oxygen content?
Can't really say anything more without more info but it could be that
you have a layer of detritus on the bottom of the pond and the warmer
temperature has started it to breakdown and deplete the oxygen. If you
do have a lot of muck in the bottom don't scoop it out with a net at
the moment. It will just release poisonous gasses into the water and
make things worse.

Everything is just guesswork at the moment but I've given you some
starting points.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[Anthropy]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:08:52 +0000 (GMT), "Rodney Pont"
> wrote:

>On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:23:56 GMT, Anthropy wrote:
>
>>Please help.
>>We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
>>and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
>>they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
>>silvery \gold type colour.
>>We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
>>off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
>>fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
>>bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
>>There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
>>bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
>>Brighton)
>>Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
>>experiencing this winter?
>>Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
>>Thanks.
>
>You need to check the water parameters, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and
>ph. Take a sample of water with you and see if they can test it there
>and if the ammonia is high you can buy something to bind it while you
>are at the shop. Over 90% of fish deaths are due to poor water quality.
>It's likely you will need to change quite a bit of water so get a
>tapwater conditioner ready for that, you normally put it into the pond
>before the fresh water so that it treats the water as it goes in.
>
>Let us know how things go and what the water tests were.
>
>I take it there isn't any filtration, if so what type is it and is it
>clean? If it has a biological section you mustn't clean that in
>tapwater since the clorine will kill the biobugs, rinse it in old pond
>water. Do you have a pump/fountain to increase the oxygen content?
>Can't really say anything more without more info but it could be that
>you have a layer of detritus on the bottom of the pond and the warmer
>temperature has started it to breakdown and deplete the oxygen. If you
>do have a lot of muck in the bottom don't scoop it out with a net at
>the moment. It will just release poisonous gasses into the water and
>make things worse.
>
>Everything is just guesswork at the moment but I've given you some
>starting points.

Thanks for the help.
I will certainly take a sample of water and have it tested. Will the
petshop do it? or some kind of kit where I could do it myself?
The pond is very basic. It's in the garden and we tend to leave it
alone other then feeding and cleaning. It has no filtration system nor
any kind of pump or fountain.
Also, here in England right now it's winter but the temperature has
been erratic. On the occasional warm day I have fed the fish a small
amount of food. I know not to feed them under 55f which I haven't.
Could the feeding be the cause?
Is it significant that only (so far) the smaller fish have died?
Thanks.

[kathy]

Any pet shop that sells fish should be able to
test your water for you. They probably also sell
test kits (check the expiration date before purchasing).

I would not feed the fish at all during the winter months
to be on the safe side.

Your pond may have gotten overstocked over the years
and this is why you are having water quality problems at
this point.
Do you have a lot of plants in the pond? Plants help with filtration
but usually only in a lightly stocked pond.

Some pet shops will take excess fish off your hands. It is
the law in some parts of the US to keep people from
releasing fish into the wild. I advertised my excess fish with
a local club in our area and my fish were caught and adopted
by new pond keepers.

good luck and hope things settle down for you!
kathy

[Rodney Pont]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:39:23 GMT, Anthropy wrote:

>Thanks for the help.
>I will certainly take a sample of water and have it tested. Will the
>petshop do it? or some kind of kit where I could do it myself?
>The pond is very basic. It's in the garden and we tend to leave it
>alone other then feeding and cleaning. It has no filtration system nor
>any kind of pump or fountain.
>Also, here in England right now it's winter but the temperature has
>been erratic. On the occasional warm day I have fed the fish a small
>amount of food. I know not to feed them under 55f which I haven't.
>Could the feeding be the cause?
>Is it significant that only (so far) the smaller fish have died?

As Kathy says you shouldn't really feed on the occasional warm day
since the fish need to be active for long enough to digest the food.
That may happen occasionally down south there but it's unlikely up here
in Yorkshire. A larger specialist shop is more likely to test the water
for you than a small pet shop and you should be able to find a larger
range of test kits and water treatments there as well.

Stocking should be low on an unfiltered pond. The Practical Fishkeeping
website http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk has a stocking guide and
pond volume calculator that's worth looking at.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[fidhw]

The PetSmart shop chain certainly do free water tests, and most aquarium shops will also test a water sample for you if you ask. You won't need much (50ml?) but try and take it fresh and also in a clean sealed container with as little air space above the water as possible (ammonia is volatile). And if they use the Tetra test sticks (a little stick that says it tests everything) bear in mind that these can be very inaccurate for nitrite (I've switched back to using liquid test kits).

Good luck!

[[email protected]]

Rodney Pont wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 15:39:23 GMT, Anthropy wrote:
>
> >Thanks for the help.
> >I will certainly take a sample of water and have it tested. Will the
> >petshop do it? or some kind of kit where I could do it myself?
> >The pond is very basic. It's in the garden and we tend to leave it
> >alone other then feeding and cleaning. It has no filtration system
nor
> >any kind of pump or fountain.
> >Also, here in England right now it's winter but the temperature has
> >been erratic. On the occasional warm day I have fed the fish a small
> >amount of food. I know not to feed them under 55f which I haven't.
> >Could the feeding be the cause?
> >Is it significant that only (so far) the smaller fish have died?
>
> As Kathy says you shouldn't really feed on the occasional warm day
> since the fish need to be active for long enough to digest the food.
> That may happen occasionally down south there but it's unlikely up
here
> in Yorkshire. A larger specialist shop is more likely to test the
water
> for you than a small pet shop and you should be able to find a larger
> range of test kits and water treatments there as well.
>
> Stocking should be low on an unfiltered pond. The Practical
Fishkeeping
> website http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk has a stocking guide
and
> pond volume calculator that's worth looking at.
>
> --
> Regards - Rodney Pont
> The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
> please send any emails to the address below
> e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk
The pond is definitely overstocked. You need to reduce the number of
fish soon even in winter the water quality will be poor. Never be
tempted to feed the fish on nice warm days in the winter because they
can't digest the food which then rots in their stomachs killing them.
Good luck.

[Phisherman]

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 14:23:56 GMT, Anthropy > wrote:

>Please help.
>We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
>and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
>they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
>silvery \gold type colour.
>We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
>off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
>fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
>bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
>There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
>bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
>Brighton)
>Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
>experiencing this winter?
>Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
>Thanks.

It could be a number of things. Taking a couple water sample to be
tested begins troubleshooting the problem. Fish can be very sensitive
to many substances such as paint, adhesives, pesticides, detergents,
etc. which are seemingly non-toxic to humans. If anything, changing
the water or moving the fish to a temporary tank might save them.

Goldfish can tolerate cold water well, but can be traumatized with
fast temperature changes. Have you always had 40 fish in about 350
gallons? "Do not exceed one inch of goldfish to one gallon of water,"
or in your case all of your goldfish can be up to 8.75" and your
capacity is reached.

Please let us know how the goldfish are doing.

[southernbc]

When you say the temperature was over 55 deg. did you mean the air or
the water? The water temp is the one that matters to fish.

Don

Anthropy wrote:
> Please help.
> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
> and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
> they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
> silvery \gold type colour.
> We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
> off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
> fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
> bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
> There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
> bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
> Brighton)
> Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
> experiencing this winter?
> Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
> Thanks.

[REBEL JOE]

yOU NEED TO CLEAN POND MUCK OUT AT LEAST once a year. And add a veggie
filter.



http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

[Anthropy]

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 03:00:12 GMT, southernbc >
wrote:


>Anthropy wrote:
>> Please help.
>> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
>> and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
>> they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
>> silvery \gold type colour.
>> We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
>> off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
>> fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
>> bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
>> There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
>> bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
>> Brighton)
>> Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
>> experiencing this winter?
>> Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
>> Thanks.

>When you say the temperature was over 55 deg. did you mean the air or
>the water? The water temp is the one that matters to fish.
>
>Don
>
Firstly thanks to everyone for your help.
Another fish was dead this morning. I noticed it looking poorly
yesterday. When I took it out the pond it's eyes were white and it
had a red patch on its underside. Once again, one of the small ones.
The other fish look fine.
I'm afraid to say the 55f I was referring to was the air. It seems
obvious now you've mentioned it that I should have been measuring the
water temperature.
I've stopped feeding them completely now even though they were quite
lively this morning and obviously wanting food.
We're also going to remove some and take them to the pond in the local
park. Would it be better to remove the big ones or the smaller ones?
I shall get the water testing kit tomorrow and post the results.
Once again, thanks for your help.

[Anthropy]

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:16:46 -0500, (REBEL JOE)
wrote:

>yOU NEED TO CLEAN POND MUCK OUT AT LEAST once a year. And add a veggie
>filter.
>
>
>
>http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

Hi
What is the best time of year to clean the pond? I live in the UK.
When the pond is being cleaned do I store the fish in water taken from
the original pond or in clean water? ( tap water?)
Reading through the posts here it would seem there is a proper order
in which to replace the contents of the pond (plants stones etc) and
water after it has been cleaned. What is it?
What's a veggie filter?
Sorry about all the questions but I'm on a very steep learning curve.
Thanks for any help.

[kathy]

When we clean our pond, in the spring, we drain it down by opening
a valve which sends the water underneath a very happy pine
tree instead of down our water fall.
We net the fish out and store them in a 150 gallon stock tank (many
time pond keepers clubs will have large tanks for loan for this
purpose). This tank is filled with pond water and a net is secured over
the top. It is mostly in the shade. We run an air pump attached to a
bubbler stone in the tank.
Plants are taken out. Placed in the shade, divided or repotted if
needed. We have no rocks in the pond.

The muck is scopped out. Dumped around trees for food. We do not scrub
the sides. No chemicals are used in cleaning.

Put the plants back in. We fill the pond from the hose, adding water
slowly over the day. Add the right amount of dechlor (available at
petstores - also important to know if your water system adds
chloramines which require a different product).

When the pond temperature is the same as the tank temperature (within
10 degrees) we put the fish back in.

A veggie filter is a setup where you run your pond water through a
plethora of plants. In our setup we run the water through a tank filled
with water hyacinth (which I don't think are available in your area)
and then into a waterfall filled with watercress. The plants filter the
fishy waste and use up a lot of the nutrients that single cell algae
thrives on and keep the pond clear. The roots of the plants catch a lot
of the mulm and dirt.

kathy :-)

[jon]

I have both a large koi pond and a goldfish pond of similar size to your
own, I never feed any of them from when it gets cold october'ish until late
March / early April and have never seen any ill effects. As regards the
goldfish I have plenty of plants in their pond and never feed them at any
time, they seem to thrive on this neglect as the original 12 have now
multiplied in to! well I loose count but well past the 40 in your own.
As for maintenance I usually just cut all the plants hard back in
October and net as much rubbish of the bottom as possible and as for the
rest of the year I just top up for evaporation.
A doddle after sorting out the complicated system in the koi Pond.

Jon
Doncaster


"Anthropy" > wrote in message
...
> Please help.
> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
> and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
> they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
> silvery \gold type colour.
> We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
> off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
> fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
> bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
> There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
> bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
> Brighton)
> Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
> experiencing this winter?
> Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
> Thanks.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>"Anthropy" wrote:
>> Please help.
>> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
>> and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
>> they have begun dying. The dead ones are small

Since it is the smaller ones dying, imo, your pond has hit what I call
"critical mass".

My suggestion would be to get a large tub, 20 gallons and fill with clean
(before you stir it up) pond water. Catch 4 of the largest, nicest looking
goldfish and put in this tub.

Now catch the rest to take to the pond store (not to the local pond unless
you have permission). Being one of the volunteer workers at a similar
"local pond" I'm not happy with people that do that. Completely drain the
pond and muck it out as Kathy mentioned. A shop vac, if you have one, works
quite well. I will repeat, rinse sides, but don't scrub. Put plants back
in, refill with needed water treatments and place tub, with the 4 keeper
goldfish, in the pond *do not turn them loose yet* add some of the fresh
pond water to the tub. Let tub float around pond overnight, and release
them in the morning... or if the evening is warm add an airstone.

To prevent critical mass from happening again, don't feed these fish ever!
They will keep their own population down within the means of the pond
providing. I'd also figure out a way to cover the pond in the fall to keep
leaves and such out. You can see how I do that with my ponds on my website.
~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Rodney Pont]

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:09:13 GMT, Anthropy wrote:

>Another fish was dead this morning. I noticed it looking poorly
>yesterday. When I took it out the pond it's eyes were white and it
>had a red patch on its underside. Once again, one of the small ones.
>The other fish look fine.

It sounds like you have a bacterial infection. Do you have a wet and
dry vacuum cleaner? They are too powerful to clean the bottom of a pond
normally but if you could restrict the inlet pipe somehow to decrease
the flow you might just be able to suck the muck up from the bottom.

About the best treatment you can get in the UK is a combination of
PimaFix and Melafix from API. This combination can treat both internal
and external bacteria. You can only get antibiotics from a vet. PimaFix
was only released last year and I haven't had to try it so I don't have
any personal recommendation but it does sound as if you have an
internal bacterial infection and it's one of the things that thrive in
colder water and MelaFix on it's own won't help with an internal
infection although it is very good for external ones.

>We're also going to remove some and take them to the pond in the local
>park. Would it be better to remove the big ones or the smaller ones?

You mustn't take fish and put them anywhere else without permission. A
lot of fish that we used to be able to keep in the UK are now banned
because people have been dumping them.

You fish are ill and you could just spread this illness to those in the
park pond if you put them in even with the councils permission and that
could wipe out the fish already in there.

Goldfish don't survive long in native waters. They aren't camouflaged
like native fish so are an easy target for predators.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

[RichToyBox]

The replies about water quality and water testing are very good, but with a
fish showing a red spot on the bottom, and the smaller fish being the first
to die, I would suspect there may also be a problem with parasites. Check
with a local koi club and see if they have someone that can do a microscopic
examination. If they find parasites, they will have recommendations on
treatments available in your area.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"Anthropy" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 03:00:12 GMT, southernbc >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Anthropy wrote:
>>> Please help.
>>> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
>>> and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
>>> they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and appear to be a
>>> silvery \gold type colour.
>>> We don't do anything to the pond other than feed the fish and clear
>>> off the leaves and stuff off the surface and until now all has been
>>> fine. We haven't changed the food nor put anything in the water. The
>>> bigger fish seem to be OK but 5 have died in the last week.
>>> There is no residue or anything usual about the pond. The fish are a
>>> bit slow but that is just the cold (It's winter here England,
>>> Brighton)
>>> Could it be something to do with the fluctuating temperature we're
>>> experiencing this winter?
>>> Please, if you can help or recommend anything we'd be most grateful.
>>> Thanks.
>
>>When you say the temperature was over 55 deg. did you mean the air or
>>the water? The water temp is the one that matters to fish.
>>
>>Don
>>
> Firstly thanks to everyone for your help.
> Another fish was dead this morning. I noticed it looking poorly
> yesterday. When I took it out the pond it's eyes were white and it
> had a red patch on its underside. Once again, one of the small ones.
> The other fish look fine.
> I'm afraid to say the 55f I was referring to was the air. It seems
> obvious now you've mentioned it that I should have been measuring the
> water temperature.
> I've stopped feeding them completely now even though they were quite
> lively this morning and obviously wanting food.
> We're also going to remove some and take them to the pond in the local
> park. Would it be better to remove the big ones or the smaller ones?
> I shall get the water testing kit tomorrow and post the results.
> Once again, thanks for your help.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Anthropy" > wrote in message
...
> Please help.
> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
> and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
> they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and ....
=====================
That's an awful lot of goldfish for such a small pond. To make it worse you
don't have aeration or a filter. They may be suffocating. How much "gunk"
is on the bottom of this pond? The water may be foul and stagnant.

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Paul]

Snip
> A veggie filter is a setup where you run your pond water through a
> plethora of plants. In our setup we run the water through a tank filled
> with water hyacinth (which I don't think are available in your area)
> and then into a waterfall filled with watercress. The plants filter the
> fishy waste and use up a lot of the nutrients that single cell algae
> thrives on and keep the pond clear. The roots of the plants catch a lot
> of the mulm and dirt.
>
> kathy :-)
>

We can get water hyacinth but tend to use them as annuals as I have
never managed to find a solution to keeping them over winter. They have
been spread in various directions from my indoor tanks to buckets in the
green house but all usually die. If anyone know how to overwinter
successfull it would be a great help. If not I tend to by some more of
ebay each year.

Paul

[Anthropy]

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 23:44:14 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote:

>
>"Anthropy" > wrote in message
...
>> Please help.
>> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet). We've had it for about 5 years
>> and everything was great. It contains about 40 goldfish but recently
>> they have begun dying. The dead ones are small and ....
>=====================
>That's an awful lot of goldfish for such a small pond. To make it worse you
>don't have aeration or a filter. They may be suffocating. How much "gunk"
>is on the bottom of this pond? The water may be foul and stagnant.
>
>Carol.... the frugal ponder...
>"Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi all and thanks for your help.
Firstly no fish have died in 5 days, hooray, and the remaining fish
look healthy and hungry but I am not feeding them, at all.
here are the results of the pond water test. The test is called Tetra
Pond Test and it does pH, KH, GH, NO2, NO3,

pH = 7.2
KH = Between 0.d - 3.d
GH = 10.d
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 0
(The "dot" is instead of a small circle, degrees I think? which isn't
on my keyboard)

According to the instructions on the box all is OK with the water.
Maybe some more food plants for the water and fish are needed however
I still don't know why the other fish died and that's worrying.
We ran two tests and the results of the second were slightly different
to the first so the validity of the test could be called into
question.
Thanks for the help.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>>> We have a pond, about 3 x 4 x 4 (feet).
>Firstly no fish have died in 5 days, hooray, and the remaining fish
>look healthy and hungry but I am not feeding them, at all.
>here are the results of the pond water test. The test is called Tetra
>Pond Test and it does pH, KH, GH, NO2, NO3,
>
>pH = 7.2
>KH = Between 0.d - 3.d
>GH = 10.d
>NO2 = 0
>NO3 = 0
>
>According to the instructions on the box all is OK with the water.

Well, maybe. Your KH reading is 0 - 3, if it is 0 there's a problem, if it
is 3, problem is still possible. To know for sure, check your pH at dusk &
dawn. If there is a variance of more than 0.4, you need to add buffer
(baking soda) to stablize it. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ Windsong ~]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
To know for sure, check your pH at dusk &
> dawn. If there is a variance of more than 0.4, you need to add buffer
> (baking soda) to stablize it. ~ jan
=======================
That's only temporary. If he needs buffering he's be better off hanging a
sack of crushed shells in the pool or adding them to the filter he really
should have with that many fish. Shells or limestone gravel work slower
with less PH shock and work 24/7.
--

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Derek Broughton]

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

> "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> To know for sure, check your pH at dusk &
>> dawn. If there is a variance of more than 0.4, you need to add buffer
>> (baking soda) to stablize it. ~ jan
> =======================
> That's only temporary. If he needs buffering he's be better off hanging a
> sack of crushed shells in the pool or adding them to the filter he really
> should have with that many fish. Shells or limestone gravel work slower
> with less PH shock and work 24/7.

Well, any buffering is only temporary :-) But you're right, shells or
limestone work better for the long term. I disagree though that he's
"better off". If you have serious pH swings, you need to get them under
control immediately. The shell solution would take weeks - during which
time there'd still be large pH swings. Baking soda won't cause any pH
shock that the fish aren't already enduring on a twice-daily basis, and
it'll only do it once. Once you get the baking soda to stabilize the pH,
_then_ use shells or limestone to keep it stable.
--
derek

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:05:30 -0400, Derek Broughton >
wrote:

>Well, any buffering is only temporary :-) But you're right, shells or
>limestone work better for the long term. I disagree though that he's
>"better off". If you have serious pH swings, you need to get them under
>control immediately. The shell solution would take weeks - during which
>time there'd still be large pH swings. Baking soda won't cause any pH
>shock that the fish aren't already enduring on a twice-daily basis, and
>it'll only do it once. Once you get the baking soda to stabilize the pH,
>_then_ use shells or limestone to keep it stable.

Right-O, he doesn't even need shells if his source water has good
buffering, as me thinks he might not being doing "Frequent Partial Water
Changes" which would also keep the buffer up, along with provide other
beneficial duties. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[REBEL JOE]

How long will the shells be affective. Do you change them every year?
What kind of shells and where do you get them?



http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

[Anthropy]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:29:24 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:05:30 -0400, Derek Broughton >
>wrote:
>
>>Well, any buffering is only temporary :-) But you're right, shells or
>>limestone work better for the long term. I disagree though that he's
>>"better off". If you have serious pH swings, you need to get them under
>>control immediately. The shell solution would take weeks - during which
>>time there'd still be large pH swings. Baking soda won't cause any pH
>>shock that the fish aren't already enduring on a twice-daily basis, and
>>it'll only do it once. Once you get the baking soda to stabilize the pH,
>>_then_ use shells or limestone to keep it stable.
>
>Right-O, he doesn't even need shells if his source water has good
>buffering, as me thinks he might not being doing "Frequent Partial Water
>Changes" which would also keep the buffer up, along with provide other
>beneficial duties. ~ jan
>
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
Hi.
Thanks for the info.
When you say shells, do you mean shells I would find on the beach? or
is there a specific type I should use?
So, firstly I should add some baking soda, how much? whilst waiting
for the shells to kick in.
We do add water to the pond in Summer if the water level is noticeably
down, in the Autumn and Winter we tend to leave it to the rain.
Thanks.

[Derek Broughton]

REBEL JOE wrote:

> How long will the shells be affective. Do you change them every year?
> What kind of shells and where do you get them?

Shells are handy because they're effective as long as you have some -
they'll dissolve in acidic water. So, if you put them in a mesh bag, or
something like that, add more whenever it starts looking a little thin.
You never need to "change" them, just replace them.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

Anthropy wrote:

> When you say shells, do you mean shells I would find on the beach? or

Any shells work (even egg shells, should do), but you should be able to find
crushed oyster shell in pond or aquarium stores. If not, Dolomitic lime in
any garden store.

> So, firstly I should add some baking soda, how much? whilst waiting
> for the shells to kick in.

I'll leave that calculation for Jan - I missed the size of your pond.

> We do add water to the pond in Summer if the water level is noticeably
> down, in the Autumn and Winter we tend to leave it to the rain.

This will tend to acidify your pond, because even in areas without
significant acid rain problems, rain is usually more acidic than your tap
water and completely without buffering.
--
derek

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>> So, firstly I should add some baking soda, how much? whilst waiting
>> for the shells to kick in.
>
>I'll leave that calculation for Jan - I missed the size of your pond.

Dang, thought I was gonna get out of that one. ;o) By my calculations ~
360 gallons (1368 liters). I'd add 1/2 cup of baking soda and recheck my
KH.... but....

>> We do add water to the pond in Summer if the water level is noticeably
>> down, in the Autumn and Winter we tend to leave it to the rain.

With this additional info..... I'd check the KH of my tap water, remove 20%
of the water from the pond and refill.

As water evaporates it leaves behind heavy metals and salts. Rain water
will dilute those, but it brings in its own source of pollution as it
cleans the air while falling. New water has minerals that fish need to stay
healthy. So if there is enough buffering in the tap water, I'd do 20% water
changes every week for 4 to 6 weeks and then monthly (since it is a
goldfish garden pond) thereafter. ~ jan


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> ~ Windsong ~ wrote:
>
> > "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > To know for sure, check your pH at dusk &
> >> dawn. If there is a variance of more than 0.4, you need to add buffer
> >> (baking soda) to stablize it. ~ jan
> > =======================
> > That's only temporary. If he needs buffering he's be better off hanging
a
> > sack of crushed shells in the pool or adding them to the filter he
really
> > should have with that many fish. Shells or limestone gravel work slower
> > with less PH shock and work 24/7.
=========================
> Well, any buffering is only temporary :-) But you're right, shells or
> limestone work better for the long term.

# I know. I used them myself. Now I use limestone rocks from the woods
behind my house.

I disagree though that he's
> "better off". If you have serious pH swings, you need to get them under
> control immediately.

# Which is difficult for a newbie with a box of Baking Soda in his/her
hand. They invariably add too much and kill their fish or not enough and do
nothing helpful. The shells or limestone rock is a lot safer although a
bit slower acting.

The shell solution would take weeks - during which
> time there'd still be large pH swings.

# Weeks? It took a few days in my 150 gallon inground kiddy-pool. You
dint use enough perhaps?

Baking soda won't cause any pH
> shock that the fish aren't already enduring on a twice-daily basis,

# You can't know that unless you're THERE measuring the BS and pH of the
water with this newbie.

and
> it'll only do it once. Once you get the baking soda to stabilize the pH,

# Stabilize it for how long - 12 hours, maybe 24 hours?

> _then_ use shells or limestone to keep it stable.

# Then this newbie better be able to sit at his pondside measuring, adding
a tad more BS, measuring the PH, adding a little more BS,... measuring - and
he better be prepared for an immediate partial water change if he adds too
much and the fish go into PH shock.
--

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
Completely FREE software:
http://www.pricelessware.org/thelist/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ Windsong ~]

"Anthropy" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the info.
> When you say shells, do you mean shells I would find on the beach? or
> is there a specific type I should use?

## Any shells. Or you can use limestone rock or crushed coral. I use
limestone rock since I get it for free where I live.

> So, firstly I should add some baking soda, how much? whilst waiting
> for the shells to kick in.

## This is why I would never recommend BS to a newbie. I know several cases
where they added a little too much and killed half the fish in their ponds
or fishrtanks before they realized there was a "problem." You have to add
a small amount and check the PH in about 5 minutes, add more, check again,
add more, check again.... better yet get some crushed coral or limestone
gravel at the local pet store.

> We do add water to the pond in Summer if the water level is noticeably
> down, in the Autumn and Winter we tend to leave it to the rain.

## You really need to be doing partial water changes at the very least every
month - with fresh dechlorinated water. You also should at have some type
of aeration if you don't want a filter.
--

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:24:24 -0600, "~ Windsong ~" <P@P> wrote:

>## This is why I would never recommend BS to a newbie.

He posted all the water quality measurements, so I'd hardly call this one a
"newbie". ;) And he has had the pond for 5 years.... granted he had other
interests than reading all the latest reports on ponding during those 5
years..... so now we're bringing him up to speed. I've already concluded
he's a quick study. ;)

> I know several cases
>where they added a little too much and killed half the fish in their ponds
>or fishrtanks before they realized there was a "problem."

IME, that's usually because there was ammonia in the system and they made
it toxic by bringing the pH up. It wasn't the baking soda, imo. I had my
lily pond reading a pH below 7.0 and I ran that pH up with BS at 8.0 and
even the tadpoles didn't mind. It was better than the fluctuation of not
enough buffer.

The recommendation of BS is a sound one, as he showed no Ammonia. Also BS
last, it isn't like vinegar, gone in 12-24 hours. The only thing that
degrades it is the filtration process, natural or man-made. Slower with the
former.

>## You really need to be doing partial water changes at the very least every
>month - with fresh dechlorinated water. You also should at have some type
>of aeration if you don't want a filter.

If the fish load is kept down by the natural process of feeding only what
the pond can provide, he's fine. After all, this pond has run for 5 years
without any maintenance. I think the OP was in the UK? Therefore no extreme
temperatures of hot or cold. All he needs to do, IMHO, after the problem of
buffer is solved is do those water changes. If he doesn't have a pump,
overflow, and protect the pond from leaves in the fall and keep the bottom
clean.

Btw, once the bottom is clean from the major muck out needed. A shop vac
(wet/dry vac) periodically run along the bottom when pond is full will keep
the bottom fairly clean. So you don't have to go thru the major muck out
again.... hopefully. :o) ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Derek Broughton]

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

> The shell solution would take weeks - during which
>> time there'd still be large pH swings.
>
> # Weeks? It took a few days in my 150 gallon inground kiddy-pool. You
> dint use enough perhaps?

OK, I'll bow to your experience - I haven't tried it, but I really didn't
think it would work so fast.

> Baking soda won't cause any pH
>> shock that the fish aren't already enduring on a twice-daily basis,
>
> # You can't know that unless you're THERE measuring the BS and pH of the
> water with this newbie.

I _can_ know that. He's not going to kill his fish (with pH shock) by
dumping in baking soda. Jan figured it would take a cup to fix a buffer
problem. He could throw the whole box in there, and it wouldn't _harm_ the
fish. If he's got pH swings that are enough to shock the fish, I can
guarantee you that _at the high end_ he's in the vicinity of the pH that
will be assured by baking soda. Throwing in the baking soda will stop the
swings and set the pH between 8 and 8.4.

That said, there is the issue of ammonia. _if_ he's got ammonia, that needs
to be fixed before playing with pH - but there's been no hint of that.
--
derek

[MurkyWaters]

you would be well advised to go to KOIPHEN.COM if you really and
truly need correct info and no shotgun treatment method, in a forum
where there are no self appointed gods and goddesses where the folks
would see right thorugh this bunch with their theorys and treatments
they push!

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:27:14 GMT, Anthropy > wrote:

>===<>Hi.
>===<>Thanks to everyone for your help.
>===<> Although I did lose one more fish none have died in 8 days. I feel
>===<>the problem may have been in feeding them in winter so no food till
>===<>march. I'm also halving the amount of fish in the pond and by reading
>===<>this group have picked up many tips and hints that I really should
>===<>have known before undertaking a pond, like the shells in the pond etc
>===<>Once again , thanks.

[~ Windsong ~]

"Anthropy" > wrote in message
...
> Hi.
> Thanks to everyone for your help.
> Although I did lose one more fish none have died in 8 days. I feel
> the problem may have been in feeding them in winter so no food till
> march. I'm also halving the amount of fish in the pond and by reading
> this group have picked up many tips and hints that I really should
> have known before undertaking a pond, like the shells in the pond etc
> Once again , thanks.
------------------------------------
I'm glad to hear everything is going so much better for you. :-)
I just cleaned out one of my 150 gallon inground kiddy pools and
as soon as it's a little warmer will put no more than 4 or 5 adult goldfish
in it
along with some plants. A small pump wrapped in window screen acts
as a filter and feeds the small waterfall (aeration.)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"When I feed the poor, they call me a saint; when I ask
why they are poor, they call me a communist. "
~~~~~~~ }<((((((o>
"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Mon, 21 Feb Windsong ~" wrote
under Please Help (so I took the liberty to move under a different title):

>------------------------------------
>I'm glad to hear everything is going so much better for you. :-)
>I just cleaned out one of my 150 gallon inground kiddy pools and
>as soon as it's a little warmer will put no more than 4 or 5 adult goldfish
>in it >along with some plants. A small pump wrapped in window screen acts
> as a filter and feeds the small waterfall (aeration.)

You go girl. Had a nice day here, I could have done a little
bit outside, but had other errands. Still, I wouldn't had gone so far as to
play with water. ;) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[~ Windsong ~]

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On Mon, 21 Feb Windsong ~" wrote
> under Please Help (so I took the liberty to move under a different title):
>
> >------------------------------------
> >I'm glad to hear everything is going so much better for you. :-)
> >I just cleaned out one of my 150 gallon inground kiddy pools and
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >as soon as it's a little warmer will put no more than 4 or 5 adult
goldfish
> >in it >along with some plants. A small pump wrapped in window screen
acts
> > as a filter and feeds the small waterfall (aeration.)
>
> You go girl. Had a nice day here, I could have done a little
> bit outside, but had other errands. Still, I wouldn't had gone so far as
to
> play with water. ;) ~ jan
>
> ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
=====================================
It was a beautiful day here. Like spring. Actually I've been working on
this pool on warm days for awhile now. The rock necklace was about the only
thing left to finish... and it was so pretty outside. All the daffodils
are coming up and are full of buds. Hyacinths are coming up. The pansies
are blooming. I can't wait for spring. :-)
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Benign Vanilla]

"Anthropy" > wrote in message
...
> Hi.
> Thanks to everyone for your help.
> Although I did lose one more fish none have died in 8 days. I feel
> the problem may have been in feeding them in winter so no food till
> march. I'm also halving the amount of fish in the pond and by reading
> this group have picked up many tips and hints that I really should
> have known before undertaking a pond, like the shells in the pond etc
> Once again , thanks.

Glad to hear things are working out for you. The group on rec.ponds is often
very reciptive to new questions and old questions alike. If you have them,
ask them!


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.