Yellow Labs - Behavior Question

[Conqueror]

I have been raising red zebra's with success for years now, recently started
Yellow Lab 29g tank. I ordered them online so was not able pick sexes. Ended
up with 3 males and 3 females. Very unactive fish. They all seem to sit in
nitches under the rocky boulder-like landscape, occasionally changing
positions. Sometimes just sit next to each other. No aggression yet, is this
normal behavior for Labs? Temp 82, PH 8.2, Salinity 1.008? I know I have the
wrong food, have normal OSI Chichlid flakes, will be introducing Spirulina
Flakes exclusivly this afternoon for a couple weeks. Fish were added 1 week
ago, is this inactivity their norm, or do I have a setting wrong?

[NetMax]

"Conqueror" > wrote in message
...
>I have been raising red zebra's with success for years now, recently
>started Yellow Lab 29g tank. I ordered them online so was not able pick
>sexes. Ended up with 3 males and 3 females. Very unactive fish. They all
>seem to sit in nitches under the rocky boulder-like landscape,
>occasionally changing positions. Sometimes just sit next to each other.
>No aggression yet, is this normal behavior for Labs? Temp 82, PH 8.2,
>Salinity 1.008? I know I have the wrong food, have normal OSI Chichlid
>flakes, will be introducing Spirulina Flakes exclusivly this afternoon
>for a couple weeks. Fish were added 1 week ago, is this inactivity their
>norm, or do I have a setting wrong?


I think their behaviour is not that unusual given their short time in a
change of environment. I would expect to see an increase in activity
level as they acclimate to the water, the tank's surroundings and
movements and shadows outside of the tank. They might always have a
lower activity level than your more gregarious Zebras though. Note that
dietarily, these fish are omnivores, unlike your Zebras.
--
www.NetMax.tk

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On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:17:25 -0500, "Conqueror" > wrote:

>I have been raising red zebra's with success for years now, recently started
>Yellow Lab 29g tank. I ordered them online so was not able pick sexes. Ended
>up with 3 males and 3 females. Very unactive fish. They all seem to sit in
>nitches under the rocky boulder-like landscape, occasionally changing
>positions. Sometimes just sit next to each other. No aggression yet, is this
>normal behavior for Labs? Temp 82, PH 8.2, Salinity 1.008? I know I have the
>wrong food, have normal OSI Chichlid flakes, will be introducing Spirulina
>Flakes exclusivly this afternoon for a couple weeks. Fish were added 1 week
>ago, is this inactivity their norm, or do I have a setting wrong?
>

Your tank is too warm. Lower the temp to 77 very slowly. Salinity
1.008? Lake Malawi is not salty (as NaCl) so why are you adding salt?

Common Labidochromis are the main exception to usual Mbuna diet.
Yellow Labs are micropredators so give them a general flake rather
than spirulina. Treat them to clean live food occasionally.


Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software
--
EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Conqueror]

> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:17:25 -0500, "Conqueror" > wrote:
>
>>I have been raising red zebra's with success for years now, recently
>>started
>>Yellow Lab 29g tank. I ordered them online so was not able pick sexes.
>>Ended
>>up with 3 males and 3 females. Very unactive fish. They all seem to sit in
>>nitches under the rocky boulder-like landscape, occasionally changing
>>positions. Sometimes just sit next to each other. No aggression yet, is
>>this
>>normal behavior for Labs? Temp 82, PH 8.2, Salinity 1.008? I know I have
>>the
>>wrong food, have normal OSI Chichlid flakes, will be introducing Spirulina
>>Flakes exclusivly this afternoon for a couple weeks. Fish were added 1
>>week
>>ago, is this inactivity their norm, or do I have a setting wrong?
>>
>
> Your tank is too warm. Lower the temp to 77 very slowly. Salinity
> 1.008? Lake Malawi is not salty (as NaCl) so why are you adding salt?
>
> Common Labidochromis are the main exception to usual Mbuna diet.
> Yellow Labs are micropredators so give them a general flake rather
> than spirulina. Treat them to clean live food occasionally.
>
>
> Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software
> --
> EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
> http://www.easynn.com


I was apparently given bad info far as salinity level, how hard should water
be for Labs?

[CanadianCray]

The water should have high PH & be very hard. Hardness is not a measure of
salinity. Its a measure of GH & KH. That being said. Yellow labs purchased
in most LFS now are acclimated to local water already & can live happily &
breed easily with no added help. You can add some salts to the water it does
help keep them healthy just don't over do it. Oh yeah & as NEtmax said they
are omnivores. They need meet & veggie.

--
Craig
________________________________
www.CanadianCray.tk
www.Bluecrayfish.com
"Conqueror" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:17:25 -0500, "Conqueror" > wrote:
>>
>>>I have been raising red zebra's with success for years now, recently
>>>started
>>>Yellow Lab 29g tank. I ordered them online so was not able pick sexes.
>>>Ended
>>>up with 3 males and 3 females. Very unactive fish. They all seem to sit
>>>in
>>>nitches under the rocky boulder-like landscape, occasionally changing
>>>positions. Sometimes just sit next to each other. No aggression yet, is
>>>this
>>>normal behavior for Labs? Temp 82, PH 8.2, Salinity 1.008? I know I have
>>>the
>>>wrong food, have normal OSI Chichlid flakes, will be introducing
>>>Spirulina
>>>Flakes exclusivly this afternoon for a couple weeks. Fish were added 1
>>>week
>>>ago, is this inactivity their norm, or do I have a setting wrong?
>>>
>>
>> Your tank is too warm. Lower the temp to 77 very slowly. Salinity
>> 1.008? Lake Malawi is not salty (as NaCl) so why are you adding salt?
>>
>> Common Labidochromis are the main exception to usual Mbuna diet.
>> Yellow Labs are micropredators so give them a general flake rather
>> than spirulina. Treat them to clean live food occasionally.
>>
>>
>> Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software
>> --
>> EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
>> http://www.easynn.com
>
>
> I was apparently given bad info far as salinity level, how hard should
> water be for Labs?
>

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:45:06 -0500, "Conqueror" > wrote:

>
>I was apparently given bad info far as salinity level, how hard should water
>be for Labs?
>

Lake Malawi isn't very hard at all. You can add limestone or coral
gravel to make the water alkaline but you don't need extra chemicals.


Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software
--
EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"
> wrote:

>The water should have high PH & be very hard.

Nope, that's wrong. Lake Malawi is not hard and it's only moderately
alkaline. It is often assume that it is the same as lake Tanganika but
it isn't.


Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software
--
EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Tommi Jensen]

wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"

>>The water should have high PH & be very hard.
Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
like to know if I'm mistaken :)

/tommi

[agent smith]

"Tommi Jensen" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"
>
>>>The water should have high PH & be very hard.
> Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
> like to know if I'm mistaken :)
>
> /tommi

you are mistaken
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1669


Temperature: 78 - 82°F

pH: 7.8 - 8.6

Water Hardness: Very Hard




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On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:36:26 +0100, Tommi Jensen > wrote:

wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"
>
>>>The water should have high PH & be very hard.
>Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
>like to know if I'm mistaken :)
>

You misquoted me.

I said it was wrong.

Malawi is slightly alkaline but it is not very hard.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Tommi Jensen]

wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:36:26 +0100, Tommi Jensen > wrote:
>
>
wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:20:11 -0500, "CanadianCray"
>>
>>>>The water should have high PH & be very hard.
>>
>>Source? just about anything I've read sofar disputes this? I'd very much
>>like to know if I'm mistaken :)
>>
>
>
> You misquoted me.

Very true, for that I apologize, but the question still stand.
look e.g. at the other response to my post and the article it mentions,
another example of wrong assumptions if you are correct.
> I said it was wrong.
which was why I asked "source?".

> Malawi is slightly alkaline but it is not very hard.

/Tommi

[Tommi Jensen]

agent smith wrote:
> you are mistaken
> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1669
> Temperature: 78 - 82°F
> pH: 7.8 - 8.6
> Water Hardness: Very Hard
Misquoted, that's what I've seen in just about any article or other read
material so far. Steve says otherwise, and I'd like to know on what he
bases this.

/Tommmi

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:27:52 +0100, Tommi Jensen > wrote:

>agent smith wrote:
>> you are mistaken
>> http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1669
>> Temperature: 78 - 82°F
>> pH: 7.8 - 8.6
>> Water Hardness: Very Hard
>Misquoted, that's what I've seen in just about any article or other read
>material so far. Steve says otherwise, and I'd like to know on what he
>bases this.
>

By sampling the water in which the fishes were shipped from Lake
Malawi. The exporter said that it was unprocessed lake water.

I think all the recent papers just quote from:

"Talling, J.F., and I.B. Talling. 1965. The chemical composition of
African lake waters. Internationale Revue der Gesamte Hydrobiologie
50 (3): 421-463."

Their paper is multiple site sampling. It's not specific to where most
of the aquarium fish live. Most of the coastal region are not
particularly hard water but there are some areas where the water is
hard.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Amateur Cichlids]

"Tommi Jensen" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
>> I said it was wrong.
> which was why I asked "source?".
>
> /Tommi


One of my pet peeves is people quoting websites as their main source of
information. As much as I enjoy reading the Cichlid-Forum and respect Marc
and Eric, just because it's written in an article on their site doesn't make
it right. With that said.

Sources for hardness. One must remember that pH and hardness is not the same
everywhere on the lake. Water will be lower in pH and softer where rivers
flow into the lakes.

According to Ad Konings in Malawi Cichlids 2nd edition, pH in Lake Malawi
is between 7.8 and 8.5. He does mention that the conductivity in Lake Malawi
(a measure of of mineral content) is relatively low when compared to the
other lakes in the Rift Valley at 200-260 microSiemens.
The only mention he makes of general hardness is that is should be
maintained above three degrees to help maintain the pH. He also mentions the
importance of dissolved oxygen.

In "A Fishkeeper's Guide to African Cichlids" by Paul Loiselle, he puts
total hardness of Lake Tanganyika at 10-12 degrees and Lake Malawi he
comments is less mineralized with a general hardness of 6-10 degrees. I
wouldn't say it was soft, but I would not agree with any of the articles
that say "Very Hard" either.

In the mineral break down, Lake Malawi contains more Calcium and Magnesium
Carbonates and some Silicates than Lake Tanganyika.
Lake Tanganyika contains Sodium, Magnesium, Potassium and a small percentage
of Calcium. These in the forms of Carbonates, Chloride, Sulfates and
Silicates.

Cheers,
Tim
www.fishaholics.org

[Tommi Jensen]

Amateur Cichlids wrote:
> One of my pet peeves is people quoting websites as their main source of
> information. As much as I enjoy reading the Cichlid-Forum and respect Marc
> and Eric, just because it's written in an article on their site doesn't make
> it right. With that said.
Very much agreed - which is why I'm inquiring about the sources of this
observation, while this newly fangled `intarweb' is a great resource for
aquarists, it's also the source of much controversy and many disputing
`facts'. that, and nothing more is the reason I'm asking - because
unless you have ready access to a local ph.d in african riftlakes,
you're going to have to eihter go there yourself to measure hardness,
ph, etc - or rely on whatever informtion you're granted - disputing or
not, and then make your best acessment.

that somebody's posted it on usenet doesn't make it more true than an
article ;)

I realize that it might have come off blunt, but being concise is imho
more important.

having said all that, I think it's great that this thread's lured out
some people with knowledge (well sourced too) I thank you all for that :)

> Sources for hardness. One must remember that pH and hardness is not the same
> everywhere on the lake. Water will be lower in pH and softer where rivers
> flow into the lakes.
>
> According to Ad Konings in Malawi Cichlids 2nd edition, pH in Lake Malawi
> is between 7.8 and 8.5. He does mention that the conductivity in Lake Malawi
> (a measure of of mineral content) is relatively low when compared to the
> other lakes in the Rift Valley at 200-260 microSiemens.
> The only mention he makes of general hardness is that is should be
> maintained above three degrees to help maintain the pH. He also mentions the
> importance of dissolved oxygen.
>
> In "A Fishkeeper's Guide to African Cichlids" by Paul Loiselle, he puts
> total hardness of Lake Tanganyika at 10-12 degrees and Lake Malawi he
> comments is less mineralized with a general hardness of 6-10 degrees. I
> wouldn't say it was soft, but I would not agree with any of the articles
> that say "Very Hard" either.
Right - having `researched' - i.e. google->more articles with "dubious"
sources - it'd seem that Taganyika is quite hard, whereas malawi could
be considered `soft' in comparison, yet still relatively hard.

> In the mineral break down, Lake Malawi contains more Calcium and Magnesium
> Carbonates and some Silicates than Lake Tanganyika.
> Lake Tanganyika contains Sodium, Magnesium, Potassium and a small percentage
> of Calcium. These in the forms of Carbonates, Chloride, Sulfates and
> Silicates.


and thanks alot for this imho invaluable contribution to my knowledge :P


/Tommi

[Sandy Birrell]

Tommi Jensen wrote:
> Amateur Cichlids wrote:
>> One of my pet peeves is people quoting websites as their main source of
>> information. As much as I enjoy reading the Cichlid-Forum and respect
>> Marc and Eric, just because it's written in an article on their site
>> doesn't make it right. With that said.
> Very much agreed - which is why I'm inquiring about the sources of this
> observation, while this newly fangled `intarweb' is a great resource for
> aquarists, it's also the source of much controversy and many disputing
> `facts'. that, and nothing more is the reason I'm asking - because
> unless you have ready access to a local ph.d in african riftlakes,
> you're going to have to eihter go there yourself to measure hardness,
> ph, etc - or rely on whatever informtion you're granted - disputing or
> not, and then make your best acessment.


If you want to get really technical have a look at these sites.



http://www.crle.uoguelph.ca/malawi/



http://www.gemswater.org/atlas-gwq/table7-e.html



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[[email protected]]

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:39:39 +0100, Tommi Jensen > wrote:

>Right - having `researched' - i.e. google->more articles with "dubious"
>sources - it'd seem that Taganyika is quite hard, whereas malawi could
>be considered `soft' in comparison, yet still relatively hard.

Yep, it's all relative. Malawi is hard relative to most African rivers
but soft relative to most of the other rift lakes. The hardness is
related to the age of lakes and how long the minerals have been
accumulating. For example Tanganika is much older than Malawi.

In the late 1960's Peter Davies sent his first big Malawi shipment to
London. It came with a bottle of water to be tested. All I got was a
pair of auratus, a pair of elongatus and a water analysis.

Some years later a shipment from Malawi arrived in Manchester. One of
the bags had no fish! We thought is was a short shipment but later
realised it was just a space filler. It was an opportunity for further
water analysis. I remember the pH was near neutral and water was quite
soft. I know the pH may have reduced during the two days it took to
get from Malawi to Manchester but I don't know of any reason for the
water to soften. Chemists?

We didn't want to repeat the mistakes that had cost the Tanganika
keepers in the early sixties. Tanganika was thought to be the same
water as the Congo.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com