Took over tank from someone else - new filter and syphoning question

[Alec M]

Hello all,

After a few years out of the hobby, took over a freshwater tank from a
neighbor who's having first baby, so now back into it!

Setup is a 20-gallon freshwater tank w/ 3 golden barbs (nice size), 3
leopard danios (on the small side) and a pleco (2-3 inches or so) -
haven't identified what type. They're all over 3 years old - I'm
calling the barbs the Golden Girls.

My questions are:

1. Former owner was using a canister-type filter which I didn't have
space for - I have bought a new side mounted power filter that fits.
Now, I realize that by switching filters I have lost many of the
bacteria. I did keep the gravel and about 2/3 of the water that was in
the tank. Think I'll be ok? (LFS said that bacteria would travel w/
the gravel even thought it wasn't an UGF).
Obviously I'll be monitoring ammonia, nitrite, nitrates to see if
anything is happening.

2. Speaking of the gravel - it is beyond filthy - probably hasn't been
siphoned in months. If you stir up the gravel even slightly the tank
is filled with sediment. (and I've had tanks before, so I know this is
way beyond normal) As mentioned above, I did do about a 1/3 water
replacement in the move and syphoned what I could during that process.
I would want to keep on syphoning but obviously don't want to replace
any more of the water at this point.

So - would syphoning through a coffee filter and then putting the water
back be a good idea? Perhaps would need unbleached coffee filter?

Should I just grin and bear it until next water change some weeks down
the road when I could get more dirt syphoned? Would the bacteria be on
the sediment? I'm just wondering if I could ever 'catch up' on
syphoning, if you get what I mean.

Thanks!
Alec in PVD

[Billy]

<inter-thingie-d>

"Alec M" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| Hello all,
|
| After a few years out of the hobby, took over a freshwater tank
from a
| neighbor who's having first baby, so now back into it!

Welcome back.:)


|
| Setup is a 20-gallon freshwater tank w/ 3 golden barbs (nice size),
3
| leopard danios (on the small side) and a pleco (2-3 inches or so) -
| haven't identified what type. They're all over 3 years old - I'm
| calling the barbs the Golden Girls.
|

Don't add anything, sounds like that tank is about loaded.


| My questions are:
|
| 1. Former owner was using a canister-type filter which I didn't
have
| space for - I have bought a new side mounted power filter that
fits.
| Now, I realize that by switching filters I have lost many of the
| bacteria. I did keep the gravel and about 2/3 of the water that
was in
| the tank. Think I'll be ok? (LFS said that bacteria would travel
w/
| the gravel even thought it wasn't an UGF).
| Obviously I'll be monitoring ammonia, nitrite, nitrates to see if
| anything is happening.

Sounds good. SOME bacteria did travel with the gravel, but not enough
to process the fish load you have there. Best bet would have been to
cut a chunk out of the media in the canister and drop it into the new
filter. Currently, you're going to get a cycle. You're watching the
levels already, but be prepared to do some water changes.


|
| 2. Speaking of the gravel - it is beyond filthy - probably hasn't
been
| siphoned in months. If you stir up the gravel even slightly the
tank
| is filled with sediment. (and I've had tanks before, so I know
this is
| way beyond normal) As mentioned above, I did do about a 1/3 water
| replacement in the move and syphoned what I could during that
process.
| I would want to keep on syphoning but obviously don't want to
replace
| any more of the water at this point.

In the past, I have fashioned manual filters so I could siphon the
sub then dump the water back in. In your case, unless you want to
fashion something like this, just siphon the gravel at each water
change and feed very lightly. You'll catch up after a while.


|
| So - would syphoning through a coffee filter and then putting the
water
| back be a good idea? Perhaps would need unbleached coffee filter?

See above. Haden't read this far yet, go for it. Any coffee filter
should be fine, provided it hasn't been used. <g>

|
| Should I just grin and bear it until next water change some weeks
down
| the road when I could get more dirt syphoned? Would the bacteria
be on
| the sediment? I'm just wondering if I could ever 'catch up' on
| syphoning, if you get what I mean.


Again, see above. Sounds like you've got a good grasp on this, you're
going to be just fine! I wouldn't worry too much. If they've survived
this long in those conditions, they will survive a bit longer in
steadily improving conditions.

billy

[NetMax]

"Alec M" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello all,
>
> After a few years out of the hobby, took over a freshwater tank from a
> neighbor who's having first baby, so now back into it!
>
> Setup is a 20-gallon freshwater tank w/ 3 golden barbs (nice size), 3
> leopard danios (on the small side) and a pleco (2-3 inches or so) -
> haven't identified what type. They're all over 3 years old - I'm
> calling the barbs the Golden Girls.
>
> My questions are:
>
> 1. Former owner was using a canister-type filter which I didn't have
> space for - I have bought a new side mounted power filter that fits.
> Now, I realize that by switching filters I have lost many of the
> bacteria. I did keep the gravel and about 2/3 of the water that was in
> the tank. Think I'll be ok? (LFS said that bacteria would travel w/
> the gravel even thought it wasn't an UGF).
> Obviously I'll be monitoring ammonia, nitrite, nitrates to see if
> anything is happening.
>
> 2. Speaking of the gravel - it is beyond filthy - probably hasn't been
> siphoned in months. If you stir up the gravel even slightly the tank
> is filled with sediment. (and I've had tanks before, so I know this is
> way beyond normal) As mentioned above, I did do about a 1/3 water
> replacement in the move and syphoned what I could during that process.
> I would want to keep on syphoning but obviously don't want to replace
> any more of the water at this point.
>
> So - would syphoning through a coffee filter and then putting the water
> back be a good idea? Perhaps would need unbleached coffee filter?
>
> Should I just grin and bear it until next water change some weeks down
> the road when I could get more dirt syphoned? Would the bacteria be on
> the sediment? I'm just wondering if I could ever 'catch up' on
> syphoning, if you get what I mean.
>
> Thanks!
> Alec in PVD


There are various types of bacteria and the aerobic nitrifying bacteria
that you are worried about are mostly along the surfaces (filter media,
glass, first layer of substrate etc). They are not in the water or deep
in the gravel. The 2nd bacteria which you will find in the gravel are
more of the anaerobic bacteria which breaks down organic matter. These
are usually not hard to get established as they have the more typical
life cycle measured in minutes rather than hours. I would rinse the
substrate well with luke-warm water. This will get rid of all the
unwanted detritus and still keep alive some of the bacteria. After that,
as you said, monitor levels, feed sparingly and cross-seed the filter
media from another tank if available.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Alec M]

Thnx all for the great (and fast!) advice

Can't believe I didn't think of getting material from old filter -
D'Oh! moment there. Now it's all dried out in my basement. (Kept the
filter just in case).

Will watch the cycle. The fish seem happy at this point (48 hours
:-))

Full load, eh? I remember when I first had the hobby about 25 years
ago it seems that people used to put a lot more in the tank (and no one
talked about the nitrogen cycle). About 4 years ago when I went in for
the hobby a second time fish load recommendations had been reduced
considerably.

I agree, wasn't thinking of putting in anything else in near future
anyhow.

Must say that the leopard danios in particular are pretty
geriatric-looking - like the fishy equivalent of an old cat or dog...
one w/ a potbelly, the other a bit of lordosis, etc... very active
schooling though -seem to have a great time.

Was hoping to add my favorite kuhli loaches one of these days, but have
read that they are not Pleco-compatible.

It's nice to have a tank again.

I think I'm going to try the coffee filter and see how it goes to clean
the sediment.

Espresso anyone????

Best,
Alec in PVD

[Andy Hill]

"Alec M" > wrote:
>Should I just grin and bear it until next water change some weeks down
>the road when I could get more dirt syphoned? Would the bacteria be on
>the sediment? I'm just wondering if I could ever 'catch up' on
>syphoning, if you get what I mean.
>
Should've transferred the media over to the new filter, but that's water under
the bridge at this point....the biobugs start to die off pretty quick once their
oxygen supply is cut off.

Personally, I'd be doing siphoning every day or so until I had that gravel
cleaned up -- it's just more of a load on your biofilter, and potentially could
even go anaerobic on you. Until your biofilter gets re-established, you're
going to be needing frequent water changes anyhow to keep the ammonia and
nitrite levels down.

Personally, I'm curious why you couldn't keep the canister -- mine just sits
down in the tank stand -- better than the side mount for my uses.

[Robert Flory]

"Alec M" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thnx all for the great (and fast!) advice
>
> Can't believe I didn't think of getting material from old filter -
> D'Oh! moment there. Now it's all dried out in my basement. (Kept the
> filter just in case).
>
How dry, how long? Might be better than nothing.
Bob

[Alec M]

Andy Hill wrote:

>
> Personally, I'd be doing siphoning every day or so until I had that
gravel
> cleaned up -- it's just more of a load on your biofilter, and
potentially could
> even go anaerobic on you. Until your biofilter gets re-established,
you're
> going to be needing frequent water changes anyhow to keep the ammonia
and
> nitrite levels down.

good point - I might go for that - didn't want to overstress them w/
water changes - so like 20% perhaps every day or so?
>
> Personally, I'm curious why you couldn't keep the canister -- mine
just sits
> down in the tank stand -- better than the side mount for my uses.

I'm not using a formal tank stand - no good place in what I'm using for
it - would have to drill some holes which I'm not ready to do. Of
course I could've set it up temporarily until new filter
established...more water under the bridge... it's all coming back -
that's what happens when you get out of the hobby for a while.

Anyhow so far so good with tests - but it's only been 48 hours.

Thnx everyone for the comments

[Andy Hill]

"Alec M" > wrote:
>Andy Hill wrote:
>> Personally, I'd be doing siphoning every day or so until I had that gravel
>> cleaned up -- it's just more of a load on your biofilter, and potentially could
>> even go anaerobic on you. Until your biofilter gets re-established, you're
>> going to be needing frequent water changes anyhow to keep the ammonia and
>> nitrite levels down.
>
>good point - I might go for that - didn't want to overstress them w/
>water changes - so like 20% perhaps every day or so?
>
Yeah 20-25% per day would be how I'd handle it. Assuming you're using
something like a Python, you can clean an awful lot of muck out with a 25%
change. Just be sure to dechlorinate and keep the temperatures matched (since
you've done this before, I'm probably teaching Grandpa how to suck eggs, but
it's worth repeating).

[Alec M]

Believe me - since I've been out of it -easy to forget the details -
yeah I'm matching temperature and dechlorinating - I did notice when
doing nitrate testing last night (had forgotten what a pain that one
is) that the FishDoc (little blue fish in docs outfit - forget the
brand) touted their own tapwater conditioning product that also removes
nitrates - do standard dechlorination products do that too? I'm using
the stuff I've always used.. starts w/ M (sorry, at work, not at
tank).

And I guess I mathematically *could* be a grandfather - but it'd be
pushing it.

A.

[Andy Hill]

"Alec M" > wrote:
>Believe me - since I've been out of it -easy to forget the details -
>yeah I'm matching temperature and dechlorinating - I did notice when
>doing nitrate testing last night (had forgotten what a pain that one
>is) that the FishDoc (little blue fish in docs outfit - forget the
>brand) touted their own tapwater conditioning product that also removes
>nitrates - do standard dechlorination products do that too? I'm using
>the stuff I've always used.. starts w/ M (sorry, at work, not at
>tank).
>
Water conditioner that removes nitrates? Never heard of such a beast (Doc
Wellfish brand or not). There're a few products out there than will detoxify
nitrites (that's -ites, not -ates) in addition to breaking down chlorine and
chloramines (Seachem Prime is the one I normally use, but I think it's pretty
much Tweedledee vs. Tweedledum among the brands). Nitrates I've always
controlled with water changes (for freshwater, anyhow...sal****er is a whole
'nother story).

[Alec M]

I'm at home - so for what it's worth - looking at the Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals instructions for their Nitrate test "Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Purifier will remove all pollutants,
including nitrate, from the tap water - making water changes
beneficial"

Not a big issue, since I expect to keep on doing water changes,
obviously - fish look happy today - it's nice to have a tank again.

[Andy Hill]

"Alec M" > wrote:
>I'm at home - so for what it's worth - looking at the Aquarium
>Pharmaceuticals instructions for their Nitrate test "Aquarium
>Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Purifier will remove all pollutants,
>including nitrate, from the tap water - making water changes
>beneficial"
>
Ah, that beast. Sorry, I was thinking you were referring to a liquid. The
Aquarium Purifier is a big honking filter you attach to your tap -- useful if
you have really crappy water (e.g., it's full of nitrates or phosphates coming
right out of the pipes), and a Reverse Osmosis unit just ain't in the ol'
budget. It'd be a project to try to hook it up to scrub tank water. Probably
wouldn't last real long, either -- I think the filters (replaceable) are only
rated for around 500 gallons.

[Alec M]

Hello all,

I thought it would be interesting to post a follow-up. It's still
early days, but:

1. I've been doing a 20% water change about 3 times a week -
syphoning as much junk as I can - there's been some slight improvement
in the amount of gunk that comes up, but still icky. Coffee filter
(bright idea number 1) didn't work well - too weak w/ the syphon.

2. Pleco didn't like the change and died after a week or so - former
owner has since told me that he'd gone through a few plecos in the tank
- so who knows.

3. Barbs and danios seem happy as clams - a ragged bunch but I'm
getting particularly endeared to the 3 barbs who follow me around the
tank and look over my shoulder while I'm working.

4. So far (and I realize it's only been 3 weeks) - ammonia has
remained undetectible, and so have nitrites... nitrates have gone down
from about 40 ppm as per the first test to between 10 and 20 today.

So - nothing cycling happening yet - I'm having a slight hope that
maybe enough bacteria did come over in the gravel and I do have enough
of the right kinds. A few more weeks will tell.

So, a few weeks down the road - when I'm sure about cycling - I'd like
to add something in the bottom. Not a big pleco fan (maybe he picked
up on that??) and was thinking of Cory's. However now the wisdom seems
to be that they want to be in groups of 6??? (I always used to have 2
or 3). Obviously 6 would be too much for a 20 gallon tank.

Again, current load is 3 nice sized gold barbs and 3 pretty stunted (as
in small) zebra danios - all about 3 years old, I'm told.

Other possibility I used to keep are kuhli loaches - however I'm
thinking that the gravel currently in the tank (which I really don't
want to mess w/ for now) is kinda more pebbly than gravely - and I know
they like to dig in.

I have added a couple of live plants (aponogeton) and might add a
couple more.

(PS - yes, hadn't realized that the Aquarium Water Purifier was a
gadget - I'd also thought it was liquid).

Thanks to all!

Alec in PVD

[Andy Hill]

"Alec M" > wrote:
>1. I've been doing a 20% water change about 3 times a week -
>syphoning as much junk as I can - there's been some slight improvement
>in the amount of gunk that comes up, but still icky. Coffee filter
>(bright idea number 1) didn't work well - too weak w/ the syphon.
>
Man, that's just nasty. I'm somewhat amazed the tank didn't have a pH crash
somewhere along the way -- the local water must be well buffered.

>4. So far (and I realize it's only been 3 weeks) - ammonia has
>remained undetectible, and so have nitrites... nitrates have gone down
>from about 40 ppm as per the first test to between 10 and 20 today.
>
>So - nothing cycling happening yet - I'm having a slight hope that
>maybe enough bacteria did come over in the gravel and I do have enough
>of the right kinds. A few more weeks will tell.
>
Well, the other possibility is that the tank is already cycled, and your water
changes are masking the nitrate buildup. I wouldn't stop cleaning the gravel
just to check the theory, 'tho...as long as the water parameters are OK, it's
all good.

>So, a few weeks down the road - when I'm sure about cycling - I'd like
>to add something in the bottom. Not a big pleco fan (maybe he picked
>up on that??) and was thinking of Cory's. However now the wisdom seems
>to be that they want to be in groups of 6??? (I always used to have 2
>or 3). Obviously 6 would be too much for a 20 gallon tank.
>
>Again, current load is 3 nice sized gold barbs and 3 pretty stunted (as
>in small) zebra danios - all about 3 years old, I'm told.
>
>Other possibility I used to keep are kuhli loaches - however I'm
>thinking that the gravel currently in the tank (which I really don't
>want to mess w/ for now) is kinda more pebbly than gravely - and I know
>they like to dig in.
>
Maybe a couple-three Zebra loaches? Nice community fish, and they stay
relatively small.

[sophie]

In message . com>, Alec
M > writes
>Hello all,
>
>I thought it would be interesting to post a follow-up. It's still
>early days, but:
>
>1. I've been doing a 20% water change about 3 times a week -
>syphoning as much junk as I can - there's been some slight improvement
>in the amount of gunk that comes up, but still icky. Coffee filter
>(bright idea number 1) didn't work well - too weak w/ the syphon.
>
>2. Pleco didn't like the change and died after a week or so - former
>owner has since told me that he'd gone through a few plecos in the tank
>- so who knows.
>
>3. Barbs and danios seem happy as clams - a ragged bunch but I'm
>getting particularly endeared to the 3 barbs who follow me around the
>tank and look over my shoulder while I'm working.
>
>4. So far (and I realize it's only been 3 weeks) - ammonia has
>remained undetectible, and so have nitrites... nitrates have gone down
>from about 40 ppm as per the first test to between 10 and 20 today.
>
>So - nothing cycling happening yet - I'm having a slight hope that
>maybe enough bacteria did come over in the gravel and I do have enough
>of the right kinds. A few more weeks will tell.
>
>So, a few weeks down the road - when I'm sure about cycling - I'd like
>to add something in the bottom. Not a big pleco fan (maybe he picked
>up on that??) and was thinking of Cory's. However now the wisdom seems
>to be that they want to be in groups of 6??? (I always used to have 2
>or 3). Obviously 6 would be too much for a 20 gallon tank.
>
>Again, current load is 3 nice sized gold barbs and 3 pretty stunted (as
>in small) zebra danios - all about 3 years old, I'm told.
>
>Other possibility I used to keep are kuhli loaches - however I'm
>thinking that the gravel currently in the tank (which I really don't
>want to mess w/ for now) is kinda more pebbly than gravely - and I know
>they like to dig in.
>
>I have added a couple of live plants (aponogeton) and might add a
>couple more.
>
>(PS - yes, hadn't realized that the Aquarium Water Purifier was a
>gadget - I'd also thought it was liquid).
>
>Thanks to all!
>
>Alec in PVD

get kuhlis.

and here is a plan.
buy sand. rinse sand.
beg/borrow an old baby bath, or several large buckets - make sure they
are completely clean of soap/detergents etc.
remove as much water as possible from tank into baby bath/buckets
without siphoning any gunk out of gravel - the idea being to keep as
much as possible
put fish in baby bath/buckets with the water.
remove everything else, including gravel, from your old tank.
rinse gravel in dechlorinated water and put maybe a quarter back.
put sand in tank, with gravel - mix them up nicely.
put old water, fish, and definitely-not-cleaned filter back into tank -
adding extra decjlorinator now for the rinsed sand wouldn't be a bad
idea.
wait a while and check they're ok.
get (& quarantine if possible) kuhlis.

's'actually quite easy, it's what I did when I changed to sand. took
maybe a couple of hours max.

the water will be old & this shouldn't shock the fish too much, you
might possibly get a mini-cycle but it should be pretty mini, and water
changes should keep it under control.
--
sophie
who is probably too much of a newbie
to be giving this kind of advice

[Alec M]

If the tank did cycle again - wouldn't I have picked up nitrites at
some point while it was cycling? (in addition to the nitrates?) - I
tested ph, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates every time.

one of these days the gravel will be (relatively) clean

seems like loaches (zebra or kuhli) might be the way to go. I miss
not having Corys though - I've always loved their personality - but
kuhlies are awesome too (thnx for the suggestion, Sophie).

Alec in PVD

[Alec M]

Thnx Sophie,

I like the idea of mixing the sand and gravel -

I don't like my gravel very much - so good option.

And I like the idea of kuhlis again.

Best,
Alec

[Andy Hill]

"Alec M" > wrote:
>If the tank did cycle again - wouldn't I have picked up nitrites at
>some point while it was cycling? (in addition to the nitrates?) - I
>tested ph, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates every time.
>
Not necessarily. Since the tank was established, and only the filter was new,
there were still plenty of biobugs on the other surfaces of the tank. Tank was
somewhat understocked, too (roughly 10" of fish in a 20 gallon, IIRC), and
cleaning the gravel probably actually reduced the bioload on the tank. Quite
possible that ammonia and nitrite never really had a chance to rise to
detectable levels.

[[email protected]]

Welcome back to the hobby buddy! I had to take a 10 (yes that's 10) or
so year break from the hobby because my dad was so paranoid about
having any kind of new pets at all. He finally cracked and let me get
back into it as long as I was reasonable and didn't put a tank in every
room of the house! Anyway - I love this hobby so much and I am glad to
be back as of a year and few months ago. I use my computer as a support
for the fish keeping hobby - finding sources for products I have read
about in catalogs and aquarium keeping magazines and reading even tons
more about the aquarium hobby on the net like I am doing right now. I
have solved most if not all of the problems I have always wanted to
find a fix for so far. I love java fern plants in my tanks and hope
that those plants will reduce the amount of gravel cleaning I need to
do because 2 of my tanks always have baby fancy guppies in them and I
don't want to accidentally siphon any of them out and them dieing
because of it. I do a 15-20% water change to all 3 tanks every 2 weeks
with a foam media in the siphon tube to make sure no babies get sucked
in. Anyway - welcome back into the hobby!

P.s. - a long time ago I bought what I found out later was a loach of
some kind and it had been being sold as an eel, you might like them a
lot but don't try them if you're using an undergravel filter as they
like to live under them (I had one be seen only 3 times in 1 or two
years above the undergravel filter - they're nocturnal as well. Later!