Fish tank, but no filter?

[Keith]

In the near future, I'm looking to start up a 75 gallon fish tank.
Probably a community tank (tetras, gouramis, barbs, etc.) with a few
"standard" plants- Elodea, Amazon Sword, etc. Nothing fancy.

I work at a pet store and am able to get everything at cost (which is
excellent!). I started to chart out my fish tank and started to
discuss different methods of filtration. At first, I figured a Fluval
404 would be best. Then, I started brain-storming and decided on a
wet-dry that I'll make myself - it would be about the same price, but
a much better filter. I am not planning on getting drilled tank, but
could make the overflow (without drilling) myself. I was planning on
going to a hardware store for the gravel, lights, and most of the
tubing. I'd get the sump, pump, heater, tank, glass canopy, and stand
from the pet store.

Then last night at a Super Bowl party with some of our neighbors, I
suggested this idea to a friend that has fish tanks. Although she has
plans for a PVC wet-dry system, she said I'd be spending way more money
than I should and that I should go for a pump and a peice of foam from
the craft store. I can switch to a wet-dry later if I would like to,
but I should try this method first. She has two 55 gallons that were
on a sump system, but no longer. She didn't like messing with it and
has found it unnecessary. She's planning on sealing up the drilled
holes in her tank when she moves.

She does mostly planted, natural tanks (we're in GA, USA). After our
discussion, she went home, tested her water, and showed me she had
absolutely no ammonia, a few nitrates, and a little bit of phosphorous.
Other than that, the tank looked good. She also suggested putting a
small layer of mud on the bottom to help cycle the tank quickly and
effectively.

I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
I'm not sure.

Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?

Keith

[Andy Hill]

"Keith" > wrote:
>I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
>seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
>have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
>the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
>you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
>right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
>I'm not sure.
>
>Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
>freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?
>
You can do it, but you'll want to watch your fish load -- the main point of a
filter is to give you more biobugs (via high-surface-area media and the large
flow of oxygenated water through the media) than you'd get without the filter.
You also get better gas exchange at the water surface due to the surface roiling
from the discharge.

If the fish are happy and the water parameters are OK, then it's all good...

[Elaine T]

Keith wrote:
> In the near future, I'm looking to start up a 75 gallon fish tank.
> Probably a community tank (tetras, gouramis, barbs, etc.) with a few
> "standard" plants- Elodea, Amazon Sword, etc. Nothing fancy.
>
> I work at a pet store and am able to get everything at cost (which is
> excellent!). I started to chart out my fish tank and started to
> discuss different methods of filtration. At first, I figured a Fluval
> 404 would be best. Then, I started brain-storming and decided on a
> wet-dry that I'll make myself - it would be about the same price, but
> a much better filter. I am not planning on getting drilled tank, but
> could make the overflow (without drilling) myself. I was planning on
> going to a hardware store for the gravel, lights, and most of the
> tubing. I'd get the sump, pump, heater, tank, glass canopy, and stand
> from the pet store.
>
> Then last night at a Super Bowl party with some of our neighbors, I
> suggested this idea to a friend that has fish tanks. Although she has
> plans for a PVC wet-dry system, she said I'd be spending way more money
> than I should and that I should go for a pump and a peice of foam from
> the craft store. I can switch to a wet-dry later if I would like to,
> but I should try this method first. She has two 55 gallons that were
> on a sump system, but no longer. She didn't like messing with it and
> has found it unnecessary. She's planning on sealing up the drilled
> holes in her tank when she moves.
>
> She does mostly planted, natural tanks (we're in GA, USA). After our
> discussion, she went home, tested her water, and showed me she had
> absolutely no ammonia, a few nitrates, and a little bit of phosphorous.
> Other than that, the tank looked good. She also suggested putting a
> small layer of mud on the bottom to help cycle the tank quickly and
> effectively.
>
> I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
> seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
> have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
> the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
> you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
> right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
> I'm not sure.
>
> Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
> freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?
>
> Keith
>
Sure it's possible to run a large tank on a sponge filter. A sponge
filter is an "actual filter". It provides mechanical and generous
biological filtration to a fishtank. There's no chemical filtration,
but many people don't use chemical filtration anyway for plant tanks.
For a large tank, the sponge has to be quite large, of course. I'd also
tend to use two for redundancy - one in each back corner maybe. Stock
very gradually and test water a lot to be sure of the capacity of your
homemade sponges.

What you have to watch for (especially in a planted tank) is the sponge
clogging with detritus. With a sponge filter, the sponge doubles as
mechanical filter so as gunk builds up in it, the flow slows and
biological filtration efficiency drops. Like a sponge from a power
filter, the remedy is to squeeze the gunk out in a bucket of old tank
water. If you have two going, you can alternate cleaning them to keep
bacterial populations up.

Sponge filters are used a lot in sick tanks and tanks for raising fry
where a lot of biological filtration is needed and a strong current is
not desirable. I think canister and HOB filters are more popular for
home aquaria because they look nicer than a big sponge sitting in the
tank. They're also more flexible and provide more circulation.

Here's a store that sells a cheap sponge filter designed for raising
angelfish fry in large tanks.
http://www.angelsplus.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db=angelsplus.dat
And another link on making a sponge filter for a 55 gallon tank. This is
a nice plan because it's run by a powerhead.
http://www.hagblomfoto.com/article_spongefilter.htm

There's a bunch more info out there if you Google on sponge filter.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Dan J.S.]

"Keith" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> In the near future, I'm looking to start up a 75 gallon fish tank.
> Probably a community tank (tetras, gouramis, barbs, etc.) with a few
> "standard" plants- Elodea, Amazon Sword, etc. Nothing fancy.
>
> I work at a pet store and am able to get everything at cost (which is
> excellent!). I started to chart out my fish tank and started to
> discuss different methods of filtration. At first, I figured a Fluval
> 404 would be best. Then, I started brain-storming and decided on a
> wet-dry that I'll make myself - it would be about the same price, but
> a much better filter. I am not planning on getting drilled tank, but
> could make the overflow (without drilling) myself. I was planning on
> going to a hardware store for the gravel, lights, and most of the
> tubing. I'd get the sump, pump, heater, tank, glass canopy, and stand
> from the pet store.
>
> Then last night at a Super Bowl party with some of our neighbors, I
> suggested this idea to a friend that has fish tanks. Although she has
> plans for a PVC wet-dry system, she said I'd be spending way more money
> than I should and that I should go for a pump and a peice of foam from
> the craft store. I can switch to a wet-dry later if I would like to,
> but I should try this method first. She has two 55 gallons that were
> on a sump system, but no longer. She didn't like messing with it and
> has found it unnecessary. She's planning on sealing up the drilled
> holes in her tank when she moves.
>
> She does mostly planted, natural tanks (we're in GA, USA). After our
> discussion, she went home, tested her water, and showed me she had
> absolutely no ammonia, a few nitrates, and a little bit of phosphorous.
> Other than that, the tank looked good. She also suggested putting a
> small layer of mud on the bottom to help cycle the tank quickly and
> effectively.
>
> I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
> seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
> have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
> the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
> you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
> right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
> I'm not sure.
>
> Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
> freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?
>
> Keith
>

Actually it's funny you mentioned it. I believe your neighbor is 100%
right... as long as there is a pump that circulates water, and some foam to
keep the heterotrophic bacteria happy, your tank will be just fine... just
make sure the pump is moving the surface of the water for aeration.

[Morse]

Don't see any reason for Sponge Filters not working, a lot of Internal
Filters are just that ie: Power head drawing water through a sponge.
I use an Internal (as well as a canister & UGF) in my Oscar tank mainly to
remove a lot of solid crap.
Works fine.
Bob.
K> I work at a pet store and am able to get everything at cost (which is
K> excellent!). I started to chart out my fish tank and started to
K> discuss different methods of filtration. At first, I figured a Fluval
K> 404 would be best. Then, I started brain-storming and decided on a
K> wet-dry that I'll make myself - it would be about the same price, but
K> a much better filter. I am not planning on getting drilled tank, but
K> could make the overflow (without drilling) myself. I was planning on
K> going to a hardware store for the gravel, lights, and most of the
K> tubing. I'd get the sump, pump, heater, tank, glass canopy, and stand
K> from the pet store.

K> Then last night at a Super Bowl party with some of our neighbors, I
K> suggested this idea to a friend that has fish tanks. Although she has
K> plans for a PVC wet-dry system, she said I'd be spending way more money
K> than I should and that I should go for a pump and a peice of foam from
K> the craft store. I can switch to a wet-dry later if I would like to,
K> but I should try this method first. She has two 55 gallons that were
K> on a sump system, but no longer. She didn't like messing with it and
K> has found it unnecessary. She's planning on sealing up the drilled
K> holes in her tank when she moves.

K> She does mostly planted, natural tanks (we're in GA, USA). After our
K> discussion, she went home, tested her water, and showed me she had
K> absolutely no ammonia, a few nitrates, and a little bit of phosphorous.
K> Other than that, the tank looked good. She also suggested putting a
K> small layer of mud on the bottom to help cycle the tank quickly and
K> effectively.

K> I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
K> seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
K> have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
K> the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
K> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
K> you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
K> right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
K> I'm not sure.

K> Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
K> freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?


With best regards, Morse. E-mail:

[Robert Flory]

"Keith" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
> seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
> have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
> the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
> you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
> right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
> I'm not sure.
>
> Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
> freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?
>
> Keith
>
I know a local Angel fish breeder who uses sponge filters in bare bottom
tanks.
http://www.angelswest.com/
check out sponge filters. They are driven by an air line. No water pumps.
That will give you an idea of what sponges can do.

Bob

[Keith]

Ah, very true. I guess what I meant is it's not a "typical" filter one
would think of for a 75 gallon. As far as the chemical filtration, I
don't ususally use that anyway.

[Dick]

On 7 Feb 2005 11:34:02 -0800, "Keith" > wrote:

>In the near future, I'm looking to start up a 75 gallon fish tank.
>Probably a community tank (tetras, gouramis, barbs, etc.) with a few
>"standard" plants- Elodea, Amazon Sword, etc. Nothing fancy.
>
>I work at a pet store and am able to get everything at cost (which is
>excellent!). I started to chart out my fish tank and started to
>discuss different methods of filtration. At first, I figured a Fluval
>404 would be best. Then, I started brain-storming and decided on a
>wet-dry that I'll make myself - it would be about the same price, but
>a much better filter. I am not planning on getting drilled tank, but
>could make the overflow (without drilling) myself. I was planning on
>going to a hardware store for the gravel, lights, and most of the
>tubing. I'd get the sump, pump, heater, tank, glass canopy, and stand
>from the pet store.
>
>Then last night at a Super Bowl party with some of our neighbors, I
>suggested this idea to a friend that has fish tanks. Although she has
>plans for a PVC wet-dry system, she said I'd be spending way more money
>than I should and that I should go for a pump and a peice of foam from
>the craft store. I can switch to a wet-dry later if I would like to,
>but I should try this method first. She has two 55 gallons that were
>on a sump system, but no longer. She didn't like messing with it and
>has found it unnecessary. She's planning on sealing up the drilled
>holes in her tank when she moves.
>
>She does mostly planted, natural tanks (we're in GA, USA). After our
>discussion, she went home, tested her water, and showed me she had
>absolutely no ammonia, a few nitrates, and a little bit of phosphorous.
> Other than that, the tank looked good. She also suggested putting a
>small layer of mud on the bottom to help cycle the tank quickly and
>effectively.
>
>I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
>seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
>have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
>the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
>you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
>right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
>I'm not sure.
>
>Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
>freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?
>
>Keith

I got tired just reading your ambitious plans. I have 5 tanks ranging
from 10 to 75 gallons. I have given filtering a lot of thought in the
2 years (this time) of keeping fish. The 75 has two Penguin 330s. I
started off the tank using commercial cartridges with charcoal. I no
longer use charcoal. I removed the charcoal and only use the frame to
hold a fine filter material.

It is my theory that filters remove nothing from the water, they
merely hold solids until the water flow erodes larger material into
particles small enough to flow through. Not only does this make the
particles almost invisible, but I conjecture, makes them easier for
the bacteria to convert.

I also believe the best maintenance for the tank is regular water
changes. I change 20% twice weekly. I am very happy with this
approach after 6 months. The fine filter media keeps the water clear,
my fish and plants are doing fine and I don't fuss with the filters
except when the flow decreases.

Good luck with your project.

dick

[Dick]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:13:34 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Keith wrote:
>> In the near future, I'm looking to start up a 75 gallon fish tank.
>> Probably a community tank (tetras, gouramis, barbs, etc.) with a few
>> "standard" plants- Elodea, Amazon Sword, etc. Nothing fancy.
>>
>> I work at a pet store and am able to get everything at cost (which is
>> excellent!). I started to chart out my fish tank and started to
>> discuss different methods of filtration. At first, I figured a Fluval
>> 404 would be best. Then, I started brain-storming and decided on a
>> wet-dry that I'll make myself - it would be about the same price, but
>> a much better filter. I am not planning on getting drilled tank, but
>> could make the overflow (without drilling) myself. I was planning on
>> going to a hardware store for the gravel, lights, and most of the
>> tubing. I'd get the sump, pump, heater, tank, glass canopy, and stand
>> from the pet store.
>>
>> Then last night at a Super Bowl party with some of our neighbors, I
>> suggested this idea to a friend that has fish tanks. Although she has
>> plans for a PVC wet-dry system, she said I'd be spending way more money
>> than I should and that I should go for a pump and a peice of foam from
>> the craft store. I can switch to a wet-dry later if I would like to,
>> but I should try this method first. She has two 55 gallons that were
>> on a sump system, but no longer. She didn't like messing with it and
>> has found it unnecessary. She's planning on sealing up the drilled
>> holes in her tank when she moves.
>>
>> She does mostly planted, natural tanks (we're in GA, USA). After our
>> discussion, she went home, tested her water, and showed me she had
>> absolutely no ammonia, a few nitrates, and a little bit of phosphorous.
>> Other than that, the tank looked good. She also suggested putting a
>> small layer of mud on the bottom to help cycle the tank quickly and
>> effectively.
>>
>> I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
>> seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
>> have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
>> the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
>> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
>> you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
>> right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
>> I'm not sure.
>>
>> Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
>> freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?
>>
>> Keith
>>
>Sure it's possible to run a large tank on a sponge filter. A sponge
>filter is an "actual filter". It provides mechanical and generous
>biological filtration to a fishtank. There's no chemical filtration,
>but many people don't use chemical filtration anyway for plant tanks.
>For a large tank, the sponge has to be quite large, of course. I'd also
>tend to use two for redundancy - one in each back corner maybe. Stock
>very gradually and test water a lot to be sure of the capacity of your
>homemade sponges.
>
>What you have to watch for (especially in a planted tank) is the sponge
>clogging with detritus. With a sponge filter, the sponge doubles as
>mechanical filter so as gunk builds up in it, the flow slows and
>biological filtration efficiency drops. Like a sponge from a power
>filter, the remedy is to squeeze the gunk out in a bucket of old tank
>water. If you have two going, you can alternate cleaning them to keep
>bacterial populations up.

Elaine, I don't even worry about the filter media bacteria. I clean
the filters in my two Penguin 330s at the same time and see no
problems. My other 4 tanks have only one filter each so they always
have the media cleaned. There seems to be lots of theories about
where bacteria live and how they need to be pampered. My experience
indicates they are far more dispersed in the system and hardy enough
to live through my handling. I even use tap water to clean the media!

dick
>
>Sponge filters are used a lot in sick tanks and tanks for raising fry
>where a lot of biological filtration is needed and a strong current is
>not desirable. I think canister and HOB filters are more popular for
>home aquaria because they look nicer than a big sponge sitting in the
>tank. They're also more flexible and provide more circulation.
>
>Here's a store that sells a cheap sponge filter designed for raising
>angelfish fry in large tanks.
>http://www.angelsplus.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db=angelsplus.dat
>And another link on making a sponge filter for a 55 gallon tank. This is
>a nice plan because it's run by a powerhead.
>http://www.hagblomfoto.com/article_spongefilter.htm
>
>There's a bunch more info out there if you Google on sponge filter.

[Philip Lewis]

"Keith" > writes:
>Does anyone have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor?

I hardly ever run major mechanical filters on my tanks.

I ususally keep a low fish/high plant load though... so i guess i
should say i use natural filters. ;)

I do have hang over the back pumps on all my tanks, but the media is
just floss and i only rarely rinse the bags of gunk. (the houseplants
get the resulting gunky water. ;)

My sal****er has an in-tank heater/pump which has some large pore
filter in it... but it's more for water movement.

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

[Elaine T]

Dick wrote:


>>What you have to watch for (especially in a planted tank) is the sponge
>>clogging with detritus. With a sponge filter, the sponge doubles as
>>mechanical filter so as gunk builds up in it, the flow slows and
>>biological filtration efficiency drops. Like a sponge from a power
>>filter, the remedy is to squeeze the gunk out in a bucket of old tank
>>water. If you have two going, you can alternate cleaning them to keep
>>bacterial populations up.
>
>
> Elaine, I don't even worry about the filter media bacteria. I clean
> the filters in my two Penguin 330s at the same time and see no
> problems. My other 4 tanks have only one filter each so they always
> have the media cleaned. There seems to be lots of theories about
> where bacteria live and how they need to be pampered. My experience
> indicates they are far more dispersed in the system and hardy enough
> to live through my handling. I even use tap water to clean the media!
>
> dick
>
Heh. I've actually always cleaned my filter media under running
tapwater too. And I agree with you that it's darned hard to lose
biological filtration simply from cleaning filters in a properly
maintained tank. However I'm conservative about my recommendations
around here. You never know when a lurker who reads a post is
maintaining a tank that's so overstocked or dirty that cleaning the tank
and all of the filters at the same time will actually spike ammonia.
People told me about lost fish all the time at the LFS where I worked
from cleaning tanks after waiting 6 months or a year.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Tom Randy]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 18:26:59 -0800, Robert Flory wrote:

>
> "Keith" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>> I've worked at a zoo and have done research with fish and have never
>> seen a tank that doesn't have an actual filter before. Does anyone
>> have experience with this or tried this besides my neighbor? I like
>> the idea and it would save me some money. However, I'm very skeptical.
>> Although the sump would be better, is it truly necessary? I mean,
>> you'll have your nitrifying bacteria in the gravel and on the sponge,
>> right? Everything is telling me, "you can't do this", but now
>> I'm not sure.
>>
>> Oh, one more question - what other groups are people involved in with
>> freshwater aquariums? Are there other ones available?
>>
>> Keith
>>
> I know a local Angel fish breeder who uses sponge filters in bare bottom
> tanks.
> http://www.angelswest.com/
> check out sponge filters. They are driven by an air line. No water pumps.
> That will give you an idea of what sponges can do.
>
> Bob


Sponge filters work GREAT. I use a dirt magnet Jr. in a 5 gal with a
Whisper 10 pump, that pump is pretty darn quiet!

Tom