Proposed new reef tank: comments requested

[Don Geddis]

I'm thinking of building a custom reef tank. I designed it myself, which you
can see at
http://reef.geddis.org/new/

So far though, I've only had a 55 gallon (1/4-circle bow front) tank, for a
few years. So I'm a little worried that I don't have the experience to make
good choices in my design.

I'd appreciate it if any of you more experienced people could take a look,
and give me suggestions for things in my design that won't work as well as I
hope, or perhaps suggestions for improvements. If you were building a new
tank from scratch, what would you put in it?

Some of my goals/concerns:

1. I want seahorses, sea anemones, and a coral reef. These things have
different requirements. But I don't want the effort of separate tanks.
So I'm thinking of trying a large tank with partitions, the way some LFSs
display animals. Anyone done this at home before?

2. I've recently seen a no-moving-parts surge device. Even LFSs don't usually
have surges, but rumors (e.g. from the Waikiki aquarium in Hawaii) suggest
that the chaotic random water motion is a huge benefit to coral growth.
Anyone built a home aquarium with a surge?

3. I'm hoping for excellent reliability. In a complex system, this generally
means few moving parts, and redundant equipment. So I'm going to try to
get a few small heaters, rather than one big one; two return pumps, rather
than a single pump, etc. Anyone have more reliablity advice? The pumps and
heaters sound feasible, but has anyone actually used multiple protein
skimmers or calcium reactors?

4. My basic plan is filtration with live rock, live sand (deep sand bed), and
a protein skimmer. I don't know much about them, but other people sometimes
use miracle mud (to slowly add trace elements), and/or a charcoal filter
(to un-yellow the water?). Anyone have recommendations about adding either
of those?

Comments on these topics, or anything else on the design, would be
appreciated. So far I've just been wasting my time with a drawing program,
designing my dream tank, and haven't spent any money. Now would be the time
to fix mistakes, before the cash starts pouring down the drain!

Thanks,

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
There are many stages to a man's life. In the first stage, he is young and
eager, like a beaver. In the second stage, he wants to build things, like
dams, and maybe chew down some trees. In the third stage, he feels trapped,
and then ``skinned.'' I'm not sure what the fourth stage is.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[Chris Gentry]

Comments in text

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Geddis" >
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Proposed new reef tank: comments requested


> I'm thinking of building a custom reef tank. I designed it myself, which
you
> can see at
> http://reef.geddis.org/new/
>
> So far though, I've only had a 55 gallon (1/4-circle bow front) tank, for
a
> few years. So I'm a little worried that I don't have the experience to
make
> good choices in my design.
>
> I'd appreciate it if any of you more experienced people could take a look,
> and give me suggestions for things in my design that won't work as well as
I
> hope, or perhaps suggestions for improvements. If you were building a new
> tank from scratch, what would you put in it?
>
> Some of my goals/concerns:
>
> 1. I want seahorses, sea anemones, and a coral reef. These things have
> different requirements. But I don't want the effort of separate tanks.
> So I'm thinking of trying a large tank with partitions, the way some
LFSs
> display animals. Anyone done this at home before?
>

Now I've only just set up my first reef tank yesterday, but I've been doing
research on this for a long time. I just wanted to state that, so you know
that this is just my opinion only.

As for the anemones and coral reef, couldn't you stick them in the same
tank? I thought that would be ok. I don't know anything about seahorses,
so I'll leave that for now...

> 2. I've recently seen a no-moving-parts surge device. Even LFSs don't
usually
> have surges, but rumors (e.g. from the Waikiki aquarium in Hawaii)
suggest
> that the chaotic random water motion is a huge benefit to coral growth.
> Anyone built a home aquarium with a surge?
>

good water movement is essential for a reef tank, but I've heard that surge
devices can be noisy. If I was building my own tank, I would personally go
with a closed loop system.

> 3. I'm hoping for excellent reliability. In a complex system, this
generally
> means few moving parts, and redundant equipment. So I'm going to try
to
> get a few small heaters, rather than one big one; two return pumps,
rather
> than a single pump, etc. Anyone have more reliablity advice? The
pumps and
> heaters sound feasible, but has anyone actually used multiple protein
> skimmers or calcium reactors?
>

With a reef tank, daily maintenance is ideal. I've read in some places that
it is a must. So if a piece of equipment goes down on you, then you will
know about it soon enough if you are checking up on your tank daily. The
multiple heaters are a good idea. (Although in reef tanks, most people worry
about cooling.) However I would just buy another return pump and have it on
hand, I would not put it in the system. That would just mean twice the
water flow that you need. As for the skimmers and reactors, there are many
people that don't use a skimmer (Even though there are many people saying
they are essential) also, calcium reactors are not essential. So again, if
you are checking your tank daily, then you should be able to catch a faulty
skimmer or reactor in time to replace/fix it. Putting multiple hardware in
the system would not be a real help, since you would have to adjust it to do
just half of the normal load.

> 4. My basic plan is filtration with live rock, live sand (deep sand bed),
and
> a protein skimmer. I don't know much about them, but other people
sometimes
> use miracle mud (to slowly add trace elements), and/or a charcoal
filter
> (to un-yellow the water?). Anyone have recommendations about adding
either
> of those?
>

My research has led me to believe that the LR, DSB, and skimmer are ideal
filtration. I do not know about miracle mud. I gather the charcoal is a
matter of your personal choice.

> Comments on these topics, or anything else on the design, would be
> appreciated. So far I've just been wasting my time with a drawing
program,
> designing my dream tank, and haven't spent any money. Now would be the
time
> to fix mistakes, before the cash starts pouring down the drain!
>

Your overall design is basically 3 tanks. 1 sump and 2 displays. I was
just reading your page, and you say you don't want the hassle of multiple
tanks, and yet this seems to be that type of system. One question on that.
Where are you going to put the lights inbetween tanks? -Chris

> Thanks,
>
> -- Don
>
__________________________________________________ __________________________
___
> Don Geddis
http://reef.geddis.org/
> There are many stages to a man's life. In the first stage, he is young
and
> eager, like a beaver. In the second stage, he wants to build things, like
> dams, and maybe chew down some trees. In the third stage, he feels
trapped,
> and then ``skinned.'' I'm not sure what the fourth stage is.
> -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[Don Geddis]

"Chris Gentry" > wrote on Fri, 11 Feb 2005:
> As for the anemones and coral reef, couldn't you stick them in the same
> tank? I thought that would be ok.

Yes, it's possible, and in fact I've done that in my current tank.

The problem is that anemones sometimes decide to move. And they have very
powerful stinging abilities. It's kind of sad if you spend a year growing some
rare stony coral, and then in a few hours one of the anemones decides to camp
on that same spot for awhile, and kills off the coral during the visit.
That's frustrating.

So I'd feel safer separating the anemones from the corals.

> I don't know anything about seahorses,
> so I'll leave that for now...

Basically, corals want strong water movement, but seahorses are poor swimmers,
and need very gentle movement only. Hence the conflict, in the same tank.

> good water movement is essential for a reef tank, but I've heard that surge
> devices can be noisy. If I was building my own tank, I would personally go
> with a closed loop system.

Noise is an issue. I'll try to find out if a surge can be relatively quiet.
Or, at least, if the noise is "nice" waterfall white noise, rather than "bad"
metal/power hum noise.

> With a reef tank, daily maintenance is ideal. I've read in some places that
> it is a must. So if a piece of equipment goes down on you, then you will
> know about it soon enough if you are checking up on your tank daily.

My hope is to build a system that is more reliable than this, and that does
not in fact require daily maintenance.

Exactly as you suggest, I'd like a piece of equipment to be able to go down,
but for the system to _not_ collapse when that happens.

> However I would just buy another return pump and have it on hand, I would
> not put it in the system. That would just mean twice the water flow that
> you need. As for the skimmers and reactors, there are many people that
> don't use a skimmer (Even though there are many people saying they are
> essential) also, calcium reactors are not essential. So again, if you are
> checking your tank daily, then you should be able to catch a faulty skimmer
> or reactor in time to replace/fix it.

Notice how you've required extra manual labor (checking everything in the tank
daily). My goal is to reduce this manual labor.

For example, with no calcium reactor, you have to add calcium daily, no?
I'm interested in building a system that requires the _least_ human
intervention.

> Putting multiple hardware in the system would not be a real help, since you
> would have to adjust it to do just half of the normal load.

But that's exactly my plan. What's wrong with building in dual equipment,
each with half the load? That way, an equipment failure doesn't make the
system collapse.

> Your overall design is basically 3 tanks. 1 sump and 2 displays. I was
> just reading your page, and you say you don't want the hassle of multiple
> tanks, and yet this seems to be that type of system.

I basically meant multiple separate water systems. With the downside being
that you need to manage salinity, water changes, calcium, nitrates, disease,
etc. separately for each tank.

I'm fixing this by having multiple tanks and tank sections, but only a single
water system. So I only need to measure the water chemistry once, not
separately for each section.

My goal is reducing human maintenance. My design should allow that, whereas
fully separate tanks would increase the maintenance effort.

> One question on that. Where are you going to put the lights inbetween
> tanks?

Hanging off the bottom of the top shelf, which is supporting the top tank.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail
in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this?
And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive
them there. The only difference is that there is no cat.
-- Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio

[Mr Dad]

I understand wanting to minimize work on the tank however a reef tank
requires work. That is most of the fun.

If you can not find the time to take care of it properly I would not waste
your time.


R
"Don Geddis" > wrote in message
...
> "Chris Gentry" > wrote on Fri, 11 Feb 2005:
> > As for the anemones and coral reef, couldn't you stick them in the same
> > tank? I thought that would be ok.
>
> Yes, it's possible, and in fact I've done that in my current tank.
>
> The problem is that anemones sometimes decide to move. And they have very
> powerful stinging abilities. It's kind of sad if you spend a year growing
some
> rare stony coral, and then in a few hours one of the anemones decides to
camp
> on that same spot for awhile, and kills off the coral during the visit.
> That's frustrating.
>
> So I'd feel safer separating the anemones from the corals.
>
> > I don't know anything about seahorses,
> > so I'll leave that for now...
>
> Basically, corals want strong water movement, but seahorses are poor
swimmers,
> and need very gentle movement only. Hence the conflict, in the same tank.
>
> > good water movement is essential for a reef tank, but I've heard that
surge
> > devices can be noisy. If I was building my own tank, I would personally
go
> > with a closed loop system.
>
> Noise is an issue. I'll try to find out if a surge can be relatively
quiet.
> Or, at least, if the noise is "nice" waterfall white noise, rather than
"bad"
> metal/power hum noise.
>
> > With a reef tank, daily maintenance is ideal. I've read in some places
that
> > it is a must. So if a piece of equipment goes down on you, then you
will
> > know about it soon enough if you are checking up on your tank daily.
>
> My hope is to build a system that is more reliable than this, and that
does
> not in fact require daily maintenance.
>
> Exactly as you suggest, I'd like a piece of equipment to be able to go
down,
> but for the system to _not_ collapse when that happens.
>
> > However I would just buy another return pump and have it on hand, I
would
> > not put it in the system. That would just mean twice the water flow
that
> > you need. As for the skimmers and reactors, there are many people that
> > don't use a skimmer (Even though there are many people saying they are
> > essential) also, calcium reactors are not essential. So again, if you
are
> > checking your tank daily, then you should be able to catch a faulty
skimmer
> > or reactor in time to replace/fix it.
>
> Notice how you've required extra manual labor (checking everything in the
tank
> daily). My goal is to reduce this manual labor.
>
> For example, with no calcium reactor, you have to add calcium daily, no?
> I'm interested in building a system that requires the _least_ human
> intervention.
>
> > Putting multiple hardware in the system would not be a real help, since
you
> > would have to adjust it to do just half of the normal load.
>
> But that's exactly my plan. What's wrong with building in dual equipment,
> each with half the load? That way, an equipment failure doesn't make the
> system collapse.
>
> > Your overall design is basically 3 tanks. 1 sump and 2 displays. I was
> > just reading your page, and you say you don't want the hassle of
multiple
> > tanks, and yet this seems to be that type of system.
>
> I basically meant multiple separate water systems. With the downside
being
> that you need to manage salinity, water changes, calcium, nitrates,
disease,
> etc. separately for each tank.
>
> I'm fixing this by having multiple tanks and tank sections, but only a
single
> water system. So I only need to measure the water chemistry once, not
> separately for each section.
>
> My goal is reducing human maintenance. My design should allow that,
whereas
> fully separate tanks would increase the maintenance effort.
>
> > One question on that. Where are you going to put the lights inbetween
> > tanks?
>
> Hanging off the bottom of the top shelf, which is supporting the top tank.
>
> -- Don
>
__________________________________________________ __________________________
___
> Don Geddis
http://reef.geddis.org/
> You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his
tail
> in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand
this?
> And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they
receive
> them there. The only difference is that there is no cat.
> -- Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio

[Don Geddis]

"Mr Dad" > wrote on Fri, 11 Feb 2005:
> I understand wanting to minimize work on the tank however a reef tank
> requires work. That is most of the fun.

I disagree. Most of the fun is watching the healthy animals move about and
grow.

I wouldn't call it "fun" to measure nitrates, add calcium, and disassemble
and clean return pumps.

Keep in mind that it's not as though I'm completely ignorant about what it
takes to run a reef tank. I've had a 55-gallon for a few years. So I
understand at least the basics.

But I can still appreciate that I'd be happier if I could spend a little
less time on equipment maintenance, and a little more on watching the animals.
Surely that's not an unusual goal. After all, why did people invent things
like calcium reactors, and auto-top off systems? Seems like lots of people
are interested in running good reef tanks, but with less human intervention.

> If you can not find the time to take care of it properly I would not waste
> your time.

That seems a bizarre thing to say. I want my water chemistry to be very
high quality, and my animals to be very happy living there. What else could
"take care of it properly" mean? I'm just trying to achieve that while
minimizing the hours I spend maintaining equipment and water parameters.
I don't see why that seems to bother you.

Finally, if you looked at my design
http://reef.geddis.org/new/
you might have noticed that I've added lots of special features just to make
the lives of the animals better, such as slow water flow for seahorses, and
a strong periodic surge of water in the reef tank for corals. I'm designing
for the specific requirements of individual species. Surely they'll be better
off than someone that just grabs a used tank off eBay and dumps a mix of
seahorses, anemones, and corals in the same container.

But you're criticizing me, not because the animals will suffer, but because
I don't get joy out of running chemical test kits, and scrubbing the insides
of water pumps?

Maybe you should repair motorcycles or something, instead of trying to keep
sal****er animals alive...

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with a
wooden stake. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

[Marc Levenson]

So Don, it has been over a month. Have you gotten started
on this project?

Marc


Don Geddis wrote:

> I'm thinking of building a custom reef tank. I designed it myself, which you
> can see at
> http://reef.geddis.org/new/
>
> So far though, I've only had a 55 gallon (1/4-circle bow front) tank, for a
> few years. So I'm a little worried that I don't have the experience to make
> good choices in my design.
>
> I'd appreciate it if any of you more experienced people could take a look,
> and give me suggestions for things in my design that won't work as well as I
> hope, or perhaps suggestions for improvements. If you were building a new
> tank from scratch, what would you put in it?
>
> Some of my goals/concerns:
>
> 1. I want seahorses, sea anemones, and a coral reef. These things have
> different requirements. But I don't want the effort of separate tanks.
> So I'm thinking of trying a large tank with partitions, the way some LFSs
> display animals. Anyone done this at home before?
>
> 2. I've recently seen a no-moving-parts surge device. Even LFSs don't usually
> have surges, but rumors (e.g. from the Waikiki aquarium in Hawaii) suggest
> that the chaotic random water motion is a huge benefit to coral growth.
> Anyone built a home aquarium with a surge?
>
> 3. I'm hoping for excellent reliability. In a complex system, this generally
> means few moving parts, and redundant equipment. So I'm going to try to
> get a few small heaters, rather than one big one; two return pumps, rather
> than a single pump, etc. Anyone have more reliablity advice? The pumps and
> heaters sound feasible, but has anyone actually used multiple protein
> skimmers or calcium reactors?
>
> 4. My basic plan is filtration with live rock, live sand (deep sand bed), and
> a protein skimmer. I don't know much about them, but other people sometimes
> use miracle mud (to slowly add trace elements), and/or a charcoal filter
> (to un-yellow the water?). Anyone have recommendations about adding either
> of those?
>
> Comments on these topics, or anything else on the design, would be
> appreciated. So far I've just been wasting my time with a drawing program,
> designing my dream tank, and haven't spent any money. Now would be the time
> to fix mistakes, before the cash starts pouring down the drain!
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
> There are many stages to a man's life. In the first stage, he is young and
> eager, like a beaver. In the second stage, he wants to build things, like
> dams, and maybe chew down some trees. In the third stage, he feels trapped,
> and then ``skinned.'' I'm not sure what the fourth stage is.
> -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

--
Personal Page:
http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[Don Geddis]

Marc Levenson > wrote on Thu, 17 Mar 2005:
> So Don, it has been over a month. Have you gotten started on this project?

I don't know much about building things myself, so I'm getting quotes from
a carpenter for making the cabinet, and from TruVu for building the acrylic
tanks.

Haven't seen a price tag yet :-), but the first reaction from the carpenter
was that it wouldn't work. That it's very hard to make a cabinet that can
support the water weight of the top tank, while still allowing a middle display
tank. I'm not a structural engineer or anything, and I surely don't want the
cabinet to collapse after a few months and destroy my tanks! So we're having
"discussions" about how to alter my cabinet design so that it still works,
but perhaps is more stable/strong.

Anyway Marc, did you get a chance to scan through the URL
http://reef.geddis.org/new/
I have to admit, when I posted here originally, I was kind of hoping that you
might notice and comment :-).

Any thoughts? Anything about the design strike you as something that I'm
going to regret a month after I set the thing up?

Now's the time to fix the design, before I actually get the thing built!

Thanks,

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Whenever I see a rainbow, at first it makes me happy. But then I wonder if, on
other planets, they have better ones.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

> Don Geddis wrote:
>> I'm thinking of building a custom reef tank. I designed it myself, which you
>> can see at
>> http://reef.geddis.org/new/
>> So far though, I've only had a 55 gallon (1/4-circle bow front) tank, for a
>> few years. So I'm a little worried that I don't have the experience to make
>> good choices in my design.
>> I'd appreciate it if any of you more experienced people could take a look,
>> and give me suggestions for things in my design that won't work as well as I
>> hope, or perhaps suggestions for improvements. If you were building a new
>> tank from scratch, what would you put in it?
>> Some of my goals/concerns:
>> 1. I want seahorses, sea anemones, and a coral reef. These things have
>> different requirements. But I don't want the effort of separate tanks.
>> So I'm thinking of trying a large tank with partitions, the way some LFSs
>> display animals. Anyone done this at home before?
>> 2. I've recently seen a no-moving-parts surge device. Even LFSs don't
>> usually
>> have surges, but rumors (e.g. from the Waikiki aquarium in Hawaii) suggest
>> that the chaotic random water motion is a huge benefit to coral growth.
>> Anyone built a home aquarium with a surge?
>> 3. I'm hoping for excellent reliability. In a complex system, this
>> generally
>> means few moving parts, and redundant equipment. So I'm going to try to
>> get a few small heaters, rather than one big one; two return pumps, rather
>> than a single pump, etc. Anyone have more reliablity advice? The pumps and
>> heaters sound feasible, but has anyone actually used multiple protein
>> skimmers or calcium reactors?
>> 4. My basic plan is filtration with live rock, live sand (deep sand bed),
>> and
>> a protein skimmer. I don't know much about them, but other people sometimes
>> use miracle mud (to slowly add trace elements), and/or a charcoal filter
>> (to un-yellow the water?). Anyone have recommendations about adding either
>> of those?
>> Comments on these topics, or anything else on the design, would be
>> appreciated. So far I've just been wasting my time with a drawing program,
>> designing my dream tank, and haven't spent any money. Now would be the time
>> to fix mistakes, before the cash starts pouring down the drain!
>> Thanks,
>> -- Don