Koi Kote

[Wildkarrde]

I posted this in rec.ponds and am just trying to share. I purchased some
koi kote from www.koi-koteusa.com and used it to coat the slate tile work in
my pond. The stuff worked great! and looks great! It's an epoxy liner
sealer that I put on myself and it was pretty easy. Anyways, I just wanted
to pass it along :)

[Roy]

Just what is so super and unique about this stuff you seem to be
ranting and raving about? For someone who just coated their pond with
this so called marvel you sure do make a lot of claims as to what it
can do, and seems to be a cureall for all pond leaks and
problems.....Or are you a dealer in disguise peddling his
wares.........your claims and advice seems more and more like spam to
me.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:35:39 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> wrote:

>===<>I posted this in rec.ponds and am just trying to share. I purchased some
>===<>koi kote from www.koi-koteusa.com and used it to coat the slate tile work in
>===<>my pond. The stuff worked great! and looks great! It's an epoxy liner
>===<>sealer that I put on myself and it was pretty easy. Anyways, I just wanted
>===<>to pass it along :)
>===<>
>===<>


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Wildkarrde]

Christ almighty! Has it come to that? A person tries to share information
with someone else and has put up with accusations??? I don't get it. I'm
happy with the way my stuff turned out so I say something about it. I
searched long an hard for something that I thought was right and the best I
get is a reply like this? It's pretty funny. I also replied to an Elaine
in another newsgroup about the possibility of harming her fish with pressure
treated wood. No mention of what I coated my pond with but I go **** on
there for believing that when a State mandated poster tells me pressure
treated wood contains poison actually contains poison. I think I'll just
move away from these goofy news groups. Some of you need to learn a few
manners.
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Just what is so super and unique about this stuff you seem to be
> ranting and raving about? For someone who just coated their pond with
> this so called marvel you sure do make a lot of claims as to what it
> can do, and seems to be a cureall for all pond leaks and
> problems.....Or are you a dealer in disguise peddling his
> wares.........your claims and advice seems more and more like spam to
> me.
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:35:39 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>I posted this in rec.ponds and am just trying to share. I purchased
some
> >===<>koi kote from www.koi-koteusa.com and used it to coat the slate tile
work in
> >===<>my pond. The stuff worked great! and looks great! It's an epoxy
liner
> >===<>sealer that I put on myself and it was pretty easy. Anyways, I just
wanted
> >===<>to pass it along :)
> >===<>
> >===<>
>
>
> REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
> Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from
selling GF (and sold
> the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired
from
> helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is
best for
> diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your
fish at Dandy Orandas
> Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS
>

[Katra]

Don't get discouraged... ;-)
Some people are just ass holes!
They can't help themselves. It's probably genetic...

Anyhoo, where did you get this stuff?
It sounds interesting.

What is the guarantee on it time-wise?

In article >,
"Wildkarrde" > wrote:

> Christ almighty! Has it come to that? A person tries to share information
> with someone else and has put up with accusations??? I don't get it. I'm
> happy with the way my stuff turned out so I say something about it. I
> searched long an hard for something that I thought was right and the best I
> get is a reply like this? It's pretty funny. I also replied to an Elaine
> in another newsgroup about the possibility of harming her fish with pressure
> treated wood. No mention of what I coated my pond with but I go **** on
> there for believing that when a State mandated poster tells me pressure
> treated wood contains poison actually contains poison. I think I'll just
> move away from these goofy news groups. Some of you need to learn a few
> manners.
>
> "Roy" > wrote in message

<snipped rudeness>

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

As we go through life thinking heavy thoughts, thought particles
tend to get caught between the ears causing truth decay- so be sure
to use mental floss twice a day. -- Swami Beyondanada

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra

[Wildkarrde]

Thanks for the kind words :) I was really disappointed in that bad comment.
In any event, I got it at www.koi-koteusa.com My pond is a slate tiled pond
on concrete. It's a formal rectangle with a three teired waterfall. I
wanted to maintain the natural look of the slate while waterproofing my pond
so I go their clear koi kote. The stuff worked great in my opinion. I
mixed it up and painted it on just like paint. I have posted my story
several times and while I can't supply picutres right now I should be able
to soon. My camera technique kind of sucked and the images were way too
dark and such. The koi kote guys wanted images of my project and I sent
them the pics. They said they have a graphics person who should be able to
fix them and once they are done they'll use them for their site and send me
corrected copies. So that's kinda cool. Again thx for the kind words :)
"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> Don't get discouraged... ;-)
> Some people are just ass holes!
> They can't help themselves. It's probably genetic...
>
> Anyhoo, where did you get this stuff?
> It sounds interesting.
>
> What is the guarantee on it time-wise?
>
> In article >,
> "Wildkarrde" > wrote:
>
> > Christ almighty! Has it come to that? A person tries to share
information
> > with someone else and has put up with accusations??? I don't get it.
I'm
> > happy with the way my stuff turned out so I say something about it. I
> > searched long an hard for something that I thought was right and the
best I
> > get is a reply like this? It's pretty funny. I also replied to an
Elaine
> > in another newsgroup about the possibility of harming her fish with
pressure
> > treated wood. No mention of what I coated my pond with but I go **** on
> > there for believing that when a State mandated poster tells me pressure
> > treated wood contains poison actually contains poison. I think I'll
just
> > move away from these goofy news groups. Some of you need to learn a few
> > manners.
> >
> > "Roy" > wrote in message
>
> <snipped rudeness>
>
> --
> K.
>
> Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...
>
> As we go through life thinking heavy thoughts, thought particles
> tend to get caught between the ears causing truth decay- so be sure
> to use mental floss twice a day. -- Swami Beyondanada
>
> >,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<
>
>
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
>

[Katra]

In article >,
"Wildkarrde" > wrote:

> Thanks for the kind words :) I was really disappointed in that bad comment.
> In any event, I got it at www.koi-koteusa.com My pond is a slate tiled pond
> on concrete. It's a formal rectangle with a three teired waterfall. I
> wanted to maintain the natural look of the slate while waterproofing my pond
> so I go their clear koi kote. The stuff worked great in my opinion. I
> mixed it up and painted it on just like paint. I have posted my story
> several times and while I can't supply picutres right now I should be able
> to soon. My camera technique kind of sucked and the images were way too
> dark and such. The koi kote guys wanted images of my project and I sent
> them the pics. They said they have a graphics person who should be able to
> fix them and once they are done they'll use them for their site and send me
> corrected copies. So that's kinda cool. Again thx for the kind words :)

Most welcome! :-)
And I look forward to seeing the pictures.
Slate is pretty! But, what we have around here is a LOT of limestone
which tends to be a bit porous. That is why I was interested. It would
be nice to use local, natural stone and this product sounds very
interesting.

Thanks for posting about it!

Kat

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

As we go through life thinking heavy thoughts, thought particles
tend to get caught between the ears causing truth decay- so be sure
to use mental floss twice a day. -- Swami Beyondanada

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra

[Angrie.Woman]

"Wildkarrde" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the kind words :) I was really disappointed in that bad
> comment.
> In any event, I got it at www.koi-koteusa.com My pond is a slate tiled
> pond
> on concrete. It's a formal rectangle with a three teired waterfall.

I'd like to see a picture of the pond.

A

[Angrie.Woman]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
>> Most welcome! :-)
> And I look forward to seeing the pictures.
> Slate is pretty! But, what we have around here is a LOT of limestone
> which tends to be a bit porous. That is why I was interested. It would
> be nice to use local, natural stone and this product sounds very
> interesting.

Are you thinking about coating the limestone to keep it from changing the
chemistry of your water? Do let me know how that works out!

A

[Katra]

In article
>,
"Angrie.Woman" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Most welcome! :-)
> > And I look forward to seeing the pictures.
> > Slate is pretty! But, what we have around here is a LOT of limestone
> > which tends to be a bit porous. That is why I was interested. It would
> > be nice to use local, natural stone and this product sounds very
> > interesting.
>
> Are you thinking about coating the limestone to keep it from changing the
> chemistry of your water? Do let me know how that works out!
>
> A
>
>

That, and to keep it from leaking. :-)
I'm not sure that having the limestone change the water chemistry would
be TOO much of a problem here since we live on limestone plains in
central Texas...

All of the water comes from aquifer water (underground) so it's already
pretty much saturated with limestone.

Once I finally get a pond built, I'll be sure to share!

Kat

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

As we go through life thinking heavy thoughts, thought particles
tend to get caught between the ears causing truth decay- so be sure
to use mental floss twice a day. -- Swami Beyondanada

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra

[Angrie.Woman]

You might want to ask in rec.ponds. I was told not to use limestone (if
you're putting fish in it) because it messes up the PH.

Buying rocks sucks!

Angie


"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> >,
> "Angrie.Woman" > wrote:
>
>> "Katra" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Most welcome! :-)
>> > And I look forward to seeing the pictures.
>> > Slate is pretty! But, what we have around here is a LOT of limestone
>> > which tends to be a bit porous. That is why I was interested. It would
>> > be nice to use local, natural stone and this product sounds very
>> > interesting.
>>
>> Are you thinking about coating the limestone to keep it from changing the
>> chemistry of your water? Do let me know how that works out!
> http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra

[Angrie.Woman]

"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> <grins> I will... but the thing is, the water here is already saturated
> with limestone due to the water source!!! Our water all comes from
> underground limestone caves. Limestone aquifer. This part of Texas is
> all one giant limestone bed! Great place to search for sea fossils. :-)
>
> I have to acid my shower head with vinegar on a regular basis. Half the
> nozzles are plugged up right now. :-P I'll probably do it over the
> weekend...

We lived in Austin for a while. Flouride was the big problem with our water.
But Indiana had the most horrid water, as far as minerals go, that I'd ever
seen. I could never keep that white crusty stuff from building up on my
aquarium. And I've had the tank in 5 states over 20 some years. It was only
a problem in Indiana.

If the koi-kote stuff works, it would have been great to use native stones.
Limestone is abundant in central Indiana too.


>
> The water here is SO saturated with dissolved limestone and alkaline,
> one has to watch what you put in for landscaping. Some plants will not
> survive without regular acidification of the soil.
>
> It's better just to "xeriscape", using as many native plants for
> landscaping as possible.

We did that in Florida - lots of drought-tolerant plants. Of course, that
was partially a reflection of my tendency to lose interest in my gardens
once the temperature climbs. That I *know* you can relate to!

A

[Katra]

In article
>,
"Angrie.Woman" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > <grins> I will... but the thing is, the water here is already saturated
> > with limestone due to the water source!!! Our water all comes from
> > underground limestone caves. Limestone aquifer. This part of Texas is
> > all one giant limestone bed! Great place to search for sea fossils. :-)
> >
> > I have to acid my shower head with vinegar on a regular basis. Half the
> > nozzles are plugged up right now. :-P I'll probably do it over the
> > weekend...
>
> We lived in Austin for a while. Flouride was the big problem with our water.
> But Indiana had the most horrid water, as far as minerals go, that I'd ever
> seen. I could never keep that white crusty stuff from building up on my
> aquarium. And I've had the tank in 5 states over 20 some years. It was only
> a problem in Indiana.
>
> If the koi-kote stuff works, it would have been great to use native stones.
> Limestone is abundant in central Indiana too.
>
>
> >
> > The water here is SO saturated with dissolved limestone and alkaline,
> > one has to watch what you put in for landscaping. Some plants will not
> > survive without regular acidification of the soil.
> >
> > It's better just to "xeriscape", using as many native plants for
> > landscaping as possible.
>
> We did that in Florida - lots of drought-tolerant plants. Of course, that
> was partially a reflection of my tendency to lose interest in my gardens
> once the temperature climbs. That I *know* you can relate to!
>
> A
>
>

<grins> I sure can... ;-)

I do a morning walk around to see what is wilting and throw some water
at it, but we usually just take care of the entire yard a couple of
times per week using a reciprocationg sprinkler that is elevated about
4' off the ground, and run it for an hour or so in the evening as it's
cooling off.

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

As we go through life thinking heavy thoughts, thought particles
tend to get caught between the ears causing truth decay- so be sure
to use mental floss twice a day. -- Swami Beyondanada

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra

[Wildkarrde]

Here is another interesting thing the koi kote guys told me. I have read
that cement and concrete leach toxins into the pond. I have also read that
some people are of the belief that it is only leached for about 3 weeks then
disipates. Ok maybe that's true. However, the koi kote guys pointed this
out to me... Since concrete and cement are porous (and I add this because
of the limestone talk above) what do you think happens to the fertilizers
and such you put on your lawn? Anything that gets soaked down into your
lawn can potentially get leached through the concrete or cement into your
pond. Now personally, that was a big selling point for me. Yes I know I'll
get a great many arguments about what is or is not leached through cement
but really, the point is as I tried to point out about pressure treated
wood, if it runs the possibility of putting toxins into my pond why would I
want that? I would want to protect against it. Frankly, my fish can't talk
to me and I just wouldn't feel right allowing a potentialy harmful substance
get into their living environemnt. Which is why I brought koi kote up. I
put it on and now I know I have locked that stuff out. Since my pond is a
formal sort of pond, it is three foot deep into the ground and one foot
above the ground. Not very likely that flooding in my yard will send water
over flowing into the pond. So at least I'm safe there.
Wildkarde
"Katra" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> >,
> "Angrie.Woman" > wrote:
>
> > "Katra" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >,
> > > <grins> I will... but the thing is, the water here is already
saturated
> > > with limestone due to the water source!!! Our water all comes from
> > > underground limestone caves. Limestone aquifer. This part of Texas is
> > > all one giant limestone bed! Great place to search for sea fossils.
:-)
> > >
> > > I have to acid my shower head with vinegar on a regular basis. Half
the
> > > nozzles are plugged up right now. :-P I'll probably do it over the
> > > weekend...
> >
> > We lived in Austin for a while. Flouride was the big problem with our
water.
> > But Indiana had the most horrid water, as far as minerals go, that I'd
ever
> > seen. I could never keep that white crusty stuff from building up on my
> > aquarium. And I've had the tank in 5 states over 20 some years. It was
only
> > a problem in Indiana.
> >
> > If the koi-kote stuff works, it would have been great to use native
stones.
> > Limestone is abundant in central Indiana too.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The water here is SO saturated with dissolved limestone and alkaline,
> > > one has to watch what you put in for landscaping. Some plants will not
> > > survive without regular acidification of the soil.
> > >
> > > It's better just to "xeriscape", using as many native plants for
> > > landscaping as possible.
> >
> > We did that in Florida - lots of drought-tolerant plants. Of course,
that
> > was partially a reflection of my tendency to lose interest in my gardens
> > once the temperature climbs. That I *know* you can relate to!
> >
> > A
> >
> >
>
> <grins> I sure can... ;-)
>
> I do a morning walk around to see what is wilting and throw some water
> at it, but we usually just take care of the entire yard a couple of
> times per week using a reciprocationg sprinkler that is elevated about
> 4' off the ground, and run it for an hour or so in the evening as it's
> cooling off.
>
> --
> K.
>
> Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...
>
> As we go through life thinking heavy thoughts, thought particles
> tend to get caught between the ears causing truth decay- so be sure
> to use mental floss twice a day. -- Swami Beyondanada
>
> >,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<
>
>
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
>

[Wildkarrde]

I will post as soon as I get them back. I asked about them on their forums
and they say they are being worked on. I'll just have to be patient :)
"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wildkarrde" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks for the kind words :) I was really disappointed in that bad
> > comment.
> > In any event, I got it at www.koi-koteusa.com My pond is a slate tiled
> > pond
> > on concrete. It's a formal rectangle with a three teired waterfall.
>
> I'd like to see a picture of the pond.
>
> A
>
>
>

[Katra]

In article >,
"Wildkarrde" > wrote:

> Here is another interesting thing the koi kote guys told me. I have read
> that cement and concrete leach toxins into the pond. I have also read that
> some people are of the belief that it is only leached for about 3 weeks then
> disipates. Ok maybe that's true. However, the koi kote guys pointed this
> out to me... Since concrete and cement are porous (and I add this because
> of the limestone talk above) what do you think happens to the fertilizers
> and such you put on your lawn? Anything that gets soaked down into your
> lawn can potentially get leached through the concrete or cement into your
> pond. Now personally, that was a big selling point for me. Yes I know I'll
> get a great many arguments about what is or is not leached through cement
> but really, the point is as I tried to point out about pressure treated
> wood, if it runs the possibility of putting toxins into my pond why would I
> want that? I would want to protect against it. Frankly, my fish can't talk
> to me and I just wouldn't feel right allowing a potentialy harmful substance
> get into their living environemnt. Which is why I brought koi kote up. I
> put it on and now I know I have locked that stuff out. Since my pond is a
> formal sort of pond, it is three foot deep into the ground and one foot
> above the ground. Not very likely that flooding in my yard will send water
> over flowing into the pond. So at least I'm safe there.
> Wildkarde


For me, the issue would be saving water... ;-) Half of my utility bill
in the summer (which sometimes runs as high as $400.00) is for water,
and my waste water/sewage goes up the more water I use, so putting in a
pond is a serious investment.

Sealing the bottom to prevent any excess water loss would probably make
the Koi kote pay for itself in one summer! And, controlling any nitrogen
leaching from garden fertilizer would of course be beneficial. Thanks
for mentioning that!

The pond is going in under my trees so will be at least mostly shaded...

We are looking into controlled drip irrigation and additional
xeriscaping to cut back on water usage. It's just getting to expensive
during the 5 hottest months of the year!

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra

[Roy]

Come back one or two years from now and tell the forum just how well
this koi kote has held up. Especially since its applied on the
substrate you describe. I'll bet any money its gonna start peeling or
blistering by that time. It relies on the substrate for its integrity,
and it gets moisture from both sides..I fyou want a good material to
make a good pond use some Polyurea..........its not a do it your self
project by any means but its the new wave of Koi and water
gardens........and needs no substrate to support it. The final details
on applicatin, and pricing is durrently being hammered out and a new
division is being formed by many of the industires in regards to
proper and controlled applications in regards to Poly Ureas compounds
so there is a standard in effect........
Polyureas come under many different brand names, gator guard, pond
koat, etc etc..........do it once and forget about it. Make a
decision later to add or modify the pond, not a problem as its
expandable and entails no problems in doing so unlike liners
do...Seems to me all these big time koi fanciers with their high end
pumps and filtration setups have no problems with natural stones or
leeching concrete...........There is different kinds of cements /
concrete in use that are virtually water proof and will not allow
leeching thorugh. Of course do not expect a comnpany that relies on a
product line to have anything bad to say about it, or a person that
just spent the money on it to start badmouthing it,. its way way too
early in the game for any decisions other than it looks good, to be
made. Polyureas on the other hand has been in use a long time, and is
now just coming in tot the light and down in price to be affordable by
most........and its bound to get cheaper once certain standards are
established, which is is the works now.




..On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 03:16:08 -0600, Katra
> wrote:

>===<>In article >,
>===<> "Wildkarrde" > wrote:
>===<>
>===<>> Here is another interesting thing the koi kote guys told me. I have read
>===<>> that cement and concrete leach toxins into the pond. I have also read that
>===<>> some people are of the belief that it is only leached for about 3 weeks then
>===<>> disipates. Ok maybe that's true. However, the koi kote guys pointed this
>===<>> out to me... Since concrete and cement are porous (and I add this because
>===<>> of the limestone talk above) what do you think happens to the fertilizers
>===<>> and such you put on your lawn? Anything that gets soaked down into your
>===<>> lawn can potentially get leached through the concrete or cement into your
>===<>> pond. Now personally, that was a big selling point for me. Yes I know I'll
>===<>> get a great many arguments about what is or is not leached through cement
>===<>> but really, the point is as I tried to point out about pressure treated
>===<>> wood, if it runs the possibility of putting toxins into my pond why would I
>===<>> want that? I would want to protect against it. Frankly, my fish can't talk
>===<>> to me and I just wouldn't feel right allowing a potentialy harmful substance
>===<>> get into their living environemnt. Which is why I brought koi kote up. I
>===<>> put it on and now I know I have locked that stuff out. Since my pond is a
>===<>> formal sort of pond, it is three foot deep into the ground and one foot
>===<>> above the ground. Not very likely that flooding in my yard will send water
>===<>> over flowing into the pond. So at least I'm safe there.
>===<>> Wildkarde
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>For me, the issue would be saving water... ;-) Half of my utility bill
>===<>in the summer (which sometimes runs as high as $400.00) is for water,
>===<>and my waste water/sewage goes up the more water I use, so putting in a
>===<>pond is a serious investment.
>===<>
>===<>Sealing the bottom to prevent any excess water loss would probably make
>===<>the Koi kote pay for itself in one summer! And, controlling any nitrogen
>===<>leaching from garden fertilizer would of course be beneficial. Thanks
>===<>for mentioning that!
>===<>
>===<>The pond is going in under my trees so will be at least mostly shaded...
>===<>
>===<>We are looking into controlled drip irrigation and additional
>===<>xeriscaping to cut back on water usage. It's just getting to expensive
>===<>during the 5 hottest months of the year!


REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from selling GF (and sold
the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired from
helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is best for
diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your fish at Dandy Orandas
Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS

[Wildkarrde]

Polyurea was waaay too expensive. As far as how well this stuff holds up,
they told me that they have seen 10+ years of service from trout hatcheries
in Canada with no problems. I've also been to the polyurea.com web site and
read the whole thing. In a nutshell it's apples and oranges. This new
division you speak of that's being formed regarding the proper application
of polyurea is nothing more than the same thing you are saying that I am
doing. A bunch of guys that apply the stuff on a daily basis trying to
decide how much cash they are willing to loose to accommodate the pond
industry. Let's face it, pond enthusiasts are all over the place and many
of the things that get done in this area are because of trial and error.
The coating I chose to use has been through it's trials. I'm not the first
one using. Hell, if it's good enough for the London Aquarium in England,
it's got to be good enough for my small time pond, and I didn't have to
spend a ton of cash to have a crew come in and do it for me. I put it on
myself.

I find it very interesting that when someone finds something they are happy
with or can vouch for, there has always got to be someone out there that
says "Hey, I never heard of them so they must suck!" "You better be careful
about those guys or the guy that just bought some." How irresponsible. You
don't hear me saying bad stuff about polyurea products do you? No. I
simply think that they were too expensive for me and I found an alternative
that I ended up liking. Does that make me tainted in some way or biased?
No, because I haven't told you anything that wasn't presented to me. The
koi kote guys didn't push me into a sale. I made my own mind up.

Now let's see how cheap polyureas do get. I bet the material will get
cheaper but the application will not budge as much. It has to be applied in
a very specific way. Go check their site out and see for yourself.
Finally, as far as leaching toxins through cement or concrete. Go read any
State drawn up reports about how concrete works and what regulations the
Government puts on it. For me, I just felt the added safety of NOT allowing
any extra bad crap into my pond was what I wanted. Heck, I personally don't
care what you put in your pond Roy. That's your choice. FYI Roy, this was
not meant as a confrontation post. I just feel like any time I speak about
my purchase I get crapped on and it usually comes from someone who hasn't
even tried the product like I did. That's biased.
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Come back one or two years from now and tell the forum just how well
> this koi kote has held up. Especially since its applied on the
> substrate you describe. I'll bet any money its gonna start peeling or
> blistering by that time. It relies on the substrate for its integrity,
> and it gets moisture from both sides..I fyou want a good material to
> make a good pond use some Polyurea..........its not a do it your self
> project by any means but its the new wave of Koi and water
> gardens........and needs no substrate to support it. The final details
> on applicatin, and pricing is durrently being hammered out and a new
> division is being formed by many of the industires in regards to
> proper and controlled applications in regards to Poly Ureas compounds
> so there is a standard in effect........
> Polyureas come under many different brand names, gator guard, pond
> koat, etc etc..........do it once and forget about it. Make a
> decision later to add or modify the pond, not a problem as its
> expandable and entails no problems in doing so unlike liners
> do...Seems to me all these big time koi fanciers with their high end
> pumps and filtration setups have no problems with natural stones or
> leeching concrete...........There is different kinds of cements /
> concrete in use that are virtually water proof and will not allow
> leeching thorugh. Of course do not expect a comnpany that relies on a
> product line to have anything bad to say about it, or a person that
> just spent the money on it to start badmouthing it,. its way way too
> early in the game for any decisions other than it looks good, to be
> made. Polyureas on the other hand has been in use a long time, and is
> now just coming in tot the light and down in price to be affordable by
> most........and its bound to get cheaper once certain standards are
> established, which is is the works now.
>
>
>
>
> .On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 03:16:08 -0600, Katra
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>In article >,
> >===<> "Wildkarrde" > wrote:
> >===<>
> >===<>> Here is another interesting thing the koi kote guys told me. I
have read
> >===<>> that cement and concrete leach toxins into the pond. I have also
read that
> >===<>> some people are of the belief that it is only leached for about 3
weeks then
> >===<>> disipates. Ok maybe that's true. However, the koi kote guys
pointed this
> >===<>> out to me... Since concrete and cement are porous (and I add this
because
> >===<>> of the limestone talk above) what do you think happens to the
fertilizers
> >===<>> and such you put on your lawn? Anything that gets soaked down
into your
> >===<>> lawn can potentially get leached through the concrete or cement
into your
> >===<>> pond. Now personally, that was a big selling point for me. Yes I
know I'll
> >===<>> get a great many arguments about what is or is not leached through
cement
> >===<>> but really, the point is as I tried to point out about pressure
treated
> >===<>> wood, if it runs the possibility of putting toxins into my pond
why would I
> >===<>> want that? I would want to protect against it. Frankly, my fish
can't talk
> >===<>> to me and I just wouldn't feel right allowing a potentialy harmful
substance
> >===<>> get into their living environemnt. Which is why I brought koi
kote up. I
> >===<>> put it on and now I know I have locked that stuff out. Since my
pond is a
> >===<>> formal sort of pond, it is three foot deep into the ground and one
foot
> >===<>> above the ground. Not very likely that flooding in my yard will
send water
> >===<>> over flowing into the pond. So at least I'm safe there.
> >===<>> Wildkarde
> >===<>
> >===<>
> >===<>For me, the issue would be saving water... ;-) Half of my utility
bill
> >===<>in the summer (which sometimes runs as high as $400.00) is for
water,
> >===<>and my waste water/sewage goes up the more water I use, so putting
in a
> >===<>pond is a serious investment.
> >===<>
> >===<>Sealing the bottom to prevent any excess water loss would probably
make
> >===<>the Koi kote pay for itself in one summer! And, controlling any
nitrogen
> >===<>leaching from garden fertilizer would of course be beneficial.
Thanks
> >===<>for mentioning that!
> >===<>
> >===<>The pond is going in under my trees so will be at least mostly
shaded...
> >===<>
> >===<>We are looking into controlled drip irrigation and additional
> >===<>xeriscaping to cut back on water usage. It's just getting to
expensive
> >===<>during the 5 hottest months of the year!
>
>
> REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
> Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from
selling GF (and sold
> the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired
from
> helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is
best for
> diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your
fish at Dandy Orandas
> Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS
>

[Walter]

Its a hard process to control thickness that is required using a
brush or roller, and over rocks etc your bound to get thin spots..its
the nature of using brushes and rollers.......So really you are a
simple sale........with a statement such as If they use dit at such
and such its good enough for me..yea right, Contractors screw up every
day with products, and using it at such and such a place is certainly
no guarantee of being a good deal or product by any means.......I
certainly have nothing against your use of li kote one way or anouther
its the way your post came out it makes you sound like you have a
vested interest in it, which IMHO I still think you do, but thats
neither here nor there. No what the polyurea folks are doing is not
what you say. They are setting a standard so folks can expect to have
it to a standard instead of some fly by nights criteria with no
warranty other than what you may get out of the installer. Polyurea
will be backed by a factory warranty as long as the installer is
certified, and the pond is built accordance to these newly worked out
standards..........In the long run Polyureas is not all that expensive
considering the long term investment and its ability to last and be
easily added to for expansion or redesign. Polyureas is a self
supporting substance for the most part, unlike koi kote which is
basically a 2 part catylyst coating that needs to be applied to a
substrate. Post in a year or two how well it is holding up, odds are
your gonna have had to make a recoat and spot coats here and
there........its almost a guaranteed thing in that aspect.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:24:32 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> wrote:

>===<>Polyurea was waaay too expensive. As far as how well this stuff holds up,
>===<>they told me that they have seen 10+ years of service from trout hatcheries
>===<>in Canada with no problems. I've also been to the polyurea.com web site and
>===<>read the whole thing. In a nutshell it's apples and oranges. This new
>===<>division you speak of that's being formed regarding the proper application
>===<>of polyurea is nothing more than the same thing you are saying that I am
>===<>doing. A bunch of guys that apply the stuff on a daily basis trying to
>===<>decide how much cash they are willing to loose to accommodate the pond
>===<>industry. Let's face it, pond enthusiasts are all over the place and many
>===<>of the things that get done in this area are because of trial and error.
>===<>The coating I chose to use has been through it's trials. I'm not the first
>===<>one using. Hell, if it's good enough for the London Aquarium in England,
>===<>it's got to be good enough for my small time pond, and I didn't have to
>===<>spend a ton of cash to have a crew come in and do it for me. I put it on
>===<>myself.
>===<>
>===<>I find it very interesting that when someone finds something they are happy
>===<>with or can vouch for, there has always got to be someone out there that
>===<>says "Hey, I never heard of them so they must suck!" "You better be careful
>===<>about those guys or the guy that just bought some." How irresponsible. You
>===<>don't hear me saying bad stuff about polyurea products do you? No. I
>===<>simply think that they were too expensive for me and I found an alternative
>===<>that I ended up liking. Does that make me tainted in some way or biased?
>===<>No, because I haven't told you anything that wasn't presented to me. The
>===<>koi kote guys didn't push me into a sale. I made my own mind up.
>===<>
>===<>Now let's see how cheap polyureas do get. I bet the material will get
>===<>cheaper but the application will not budge as much. It has to be applied in
>===<>a very specific way. Go check their site out and see for yourself.
>===<>Finally, as far as leaching toxins through cement or concrete. Go read any
>===<>State drawn up reports about how concrete works and what regulations the
>===<>Government puts on it. For me, I just felt the added safety of NOT allowing
>===<>any extra bad crap into my pond was what I wanted. Heck, I personally don't
>===<>care what you put in your pond Roy. That's your choice. FYI Roy, this was
>===<>not meant as a confrontation post. I just feel like any time I speak about
>===<>my purchase I get crapped on and it usually comes from someone who hasn't
>===<>even tried the product like I did. That's biased.
>===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> Come back one or two years from now and tell the forum just how well
>===<>> this koi kote has held up. Especially since its applied on the
>===<>> substrate you describe. I'll bet any money its gonna start peeling or
>===<>> blistering by that time. It relies on the substrate for its integrity,
>===<>> and it gets moisture from both sides..I fyou want a good material to
>===<>> make a good pond use some Polyurea..........its not a do it your self
>===<>> project by any means but its the new wave of Koi and water
>===<>> gardens........and needs no substrate to support it. The final details
>===<>> on applicatin, and pricing is durrently being hammered out and a new
>===<>> division is being formed by many of the industires in regards to
>===<>> proper and controlled applications in regards to Poly Ureas compounds
>===<>> so there is a standard in effect........
>===<>> Polyureas come under many different brand names, gator guard, pond
>===<>> koat, etc etc..........do it once and forget about it. Make a
>===<>> decision later to add or modify the pond, not a problem as its
>===<>> expandable and entails no problems in doing so unlike liners
>===<>> do...Seems to me all these big time koi fanciers with their high end
>===<>> pumps and filtration setups have no problems with natural stones or
>===<>> leeching concrete...........There is different kinds of cements /
>===<>> concrete in use that are virtually water proof and will not allow
>===<>> leeching thorugh. Of course do not expect a comnpany that relies on a
>===<>> product line to have anything bad to say about it, or a person that
>===<>> just spent the money on it to start badmouthing it,. its way way too
>===<>> early in the game for any decisions other than it looks good, to be
>===<>> made. Polyureas on the other hand has been in use a long time, and is
>===<>> now just coming in tot the light and down in price to be affordable by
>===<>> most........and its bound to get cheaper once certain standards are
>===<>> established, which is is the works now.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> .On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 03:16:08 -0600, Katra
>===<>> > wrote:
>===<>>
>===<>> >===<>In article >,
>===<>> >===<> "Wildkarrde" > wrote:
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>> Here is another interesting thing the koi kote guys told me. I
>===<>have read
>===<>> >===<>> that cement and concrete leach toxins into the pond. I have also
>===<>read that
>===<>> >===<>> some people are of the belief that it is only leached for about 3
>===<>weeks then
>===<>> >===<>> disipates. Ok maybe that's true. However, the koi kote guys
>===<>pointed this
>===<>> >===<>> out to me... Since concrete and cement are porous (and I add this
>===<>because
>===<>> >===<>> of the limestone talk above) what do you think happens to the
>===<>fertilizers
>===<>> >===<>> and such you put on your lawn? Anything that gets soaked down
>===<>into your
>===<>> >===<>> lawn can potentially get leached through the concrete or cement
>===<>into your
>===<>> >===<>> pond. Now personally, that was a big selling point for me. Yes I
>===<>know I'll
>===<>> >===<>> get a great many arguments about what is or is not leached through
>===<>cement
>===<>> >===<>> but really, the point is as I tried to point out about pressure
>===<>treated
>===<>> >===<>> wood, if it runs the possibility of putting toxins into my pond
>===<>why would I
>===<>> >===<>> want that? I would want to protect against it. Frankly, my fish
>===<>can't talk
>===<>> >===<>> to me and I just wouldn't feel right allowing a potentialy harmful
>===<>substance
>===<>> >===<>> get into their living environemnt. Which is why I brought koi
>===<>kote up. I
>===<>> >===<>> put it on and now I know I have locked that stuff out. Since my
>===<>pond is a
>===<>> >===<>> formal sort of pond, it is three foot deep into the ground and one
>===<>foot
>===<>> >===<>> above the ground. Not very likely that flooding in my yard will
>===<>send water
>===<>> >===<>> over flowing into the pond. So at least I'm safe there.
>===<>> >===<>> Wildkarde
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>For me, the issue would be saving water... ;-) Half of my utility
>===<>bill
>===<>> >===<>in the summer (which sometimes runs as high as $400.00) is for
>===<>water,
>===<>> >===<>and my waste water/sewage goes up the more water I use, so putting
>===<>in a
>===<>> >===<>pond is a serious investment.
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>Sealing the bottom to prevent any excess water loss would probably
>===<>make
>===<>> >===<>the Koi kote pay for itself in one summer! And, controlling any
>===<>nitrogen
>===<>> >===<>leaching from garden fertilizer would of course be beneficial.
>===<>Thanks
>===<>> >===<>for mentioning that!
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>The pond is going in under my trees so will be at least mostly
>===<>shaded...
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>We are looking into controlled drip irrigation and additional
>===<>> >===<>xeriscaping to cut back on water usage. It's just getting to
>===<>expensive
>===<>> >===<>during the 5 hottest months of the year!
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> REMEMBER: "This is worth repeating for benefit of al newbies!
>===<>> Jo Ann asked Dr. Solo to remind people that while she has retired from
>===<>selling GF (and sold
>===<>> the business to Ken Fischer http://dandyorandas.com/) she has NOT retired
>===<>from
>===<>> helping people with sick GF and koi FOR FREE. 251-649-4790 phoning is
>===<>best for
>===<>> diagnosis. but, can try email put "help sick fish" in subject. Get your
>===<>fish at Dandy Orandas
>===<>> Dandy Orandas Dandy Orandas........you guys got that DANDY ORANDAS
>===<>>
>===<>
>===<>

[Angrie.Woman]

"Walter" > wrote in message
...
>
>.... Contractors screw up every
> day with products, and using it at such and such a place is certainly
> no guarantee of being a good deal or product by any
> means.......I<clip>Polyurea
> will be backed by a factory warranty as long as the installer is
> certified, and the pond is built accordance to these newly worked out
> standards


Those statements right there are more than enough to make me choose a
do-it-yourself type product like the OP described.

1. I doubt my pond is going to be built to meet any professional standards.

2. After battling contractors with manufacturers over roofing shingles and
vinyl siding, I have no desire to entangle myself in yet another "nobody
assumes responsibilty" bout of fingerpointing. It will be a cold day in hell
before I hire another contractor. If I can't do it, then it doesn't need to
be done.

My pond is supposed to be my peaceful little project, not a way for the rest
of the world to make a buck and call themselves "professionals."

A

[Roy]

Naw it sound like you need to do your homework better......

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:15:46 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Walter" > wrote in message
...
>===<>>
>===<>>.... Contractors screw up every
>===<>> day with products, and using it at such and such a place is certainly
>===<>> no guarantee of being a good deal or product by any
>===<>> means.......I<clip>Polyurea
>===<>> will be backed by a factory warranty as long as the installer is
>===<>> certified, and the pond is built accordance to these newly worked out
>===<>> standards
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>Those statements right there are more than enough to make me choose a
>===<>do-it-yourself type product like the OP described.
>===<>
>===<>1. I doubt my pond is going to be built to meet any professional standards.
>===<>
>===<>2. After battling contractors with manufacturers over roofing shingles and
>===<>vinyl siding, I have no desire to entangle myself in yet another "nobody
>===<>assumes responsibilty" bout of fingerpointing. It will be a cold day in hell
>===<>before I hire another contractor. If I can't do it, then it doesn't need to
>===<>be done.
>===<>
>===<>My pond is supposed to be my peaceful little project, not a way for the rest
>===<>of the world to make a buck and call themselves "professionals."
>===<>
>===<>A
>===<>

[Wildkarrde]

Oh boy *rolls eyes* Purchase whatever you guys want. I don;t really care.
But like AngrieWoman said, contractors are a pain in the butt. I have known
too many of them over the past year that told me they were professionals on
my home project. Guess what? My home still isn't done but everything I set
out to do on my pond is on track. At least I know I did a good job on my
pond and that's good enough for me.
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Naw it sound like you need to do your homework better......
>
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:15:46 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>
> >===<>"Walter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >===<>>
> >===<>>.... Contractors screw up every
> >===<>> day with products, and using it at such and such a place is
certainly
> >===<>> no guarantee of being a good deal or product by any
> >===<>> means.......I<clip>Polyurea
> >===<>> will be backed by a factory warranty as long as the installer is
> >===<>> certified, and the pond is built accordance to these newly worked
out
> >===<>> standards
> >===<>
> >===<>
> >===<>Those statements right there are more than enough to make me choose
a
> >===<>do-it-yourself type product like the OP described.
> >===<>
> >===<>1. I doubt my pond is going to be built to meet any professional
standards.
> >===<>
> >===<>2. After battling contractors with manufacturers over roofing
shingles and
> >===<>vinyl siding, I have no desire to entangle myself in yet another
"nobody
> >===<>assumes responsibilty" bout of fingerpointing. It will be a cold day
in hell
> >===<>before I hire another contractor. If I can't do it, then it doesn't
need to
> >===<>be done.
> >===<>
> >===<>My pond is supposed to be my peaceful little project, not a way for
the rest
> >===<>of the world to make a buck and call themselves "professionals."
> >===<>
> >===<>A
> >===<>
>
>

[Wildkarrde]

As a matter of fact, I think I'll just move on to go finish my pond. This
banter back and forth is tiresome. I hope you all fair well with your ponds
and if not ask Roy for some help. He's sounds like he's even installed
polyurea. Maybe co-invented it or something. But either way he has all the
answers.
"Wildkarrde" > wrote in message
...
> Oh boy *rolls eyes* Purchase whatever you guys want. I don;t really care.
> But like AngrieWoman said, contractors are a pain in the butt. I have
known
> too many of them over the past year that told me they were professionals
on
> my home project. Guess what? My home still isn't done but everything I
set
> out to do on my pond is on track. At least I know I did a good job on my
> pond and that's good enough for me.
> "Roy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Naw it sound like you need to do your homework better......
> >
> > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:15:46 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >===<>
> > >===<>"Walter" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >===<>>
> > >===<>>.... Contractors screw up every
> > >===<>> day with products, and using it at such and such a place is
> certainly
> > >===<>> no guarantee of being a good deal or product by any
> > >===<>> means.......I<clip>Polyurea
> > >===<>> will be backed by a factory warranty as long as the installer is
> > >===<>> certified, and the pond is built accordance to these newly
worked
> out
> > >===<>> standards
> > >===<>
> > >===<>
> > >===<>Those statements right there are more than enough to make me
choose
> a
> > >===<>do-it-yourself type product like the OP described.
> > >===<>
> > >===<>1. I doubt my pond is going to be built to meet any professional
> standards.
> > >===<>
> > >===<>2. After battling contractors with manufacturers over roofing
> shingles and
> > >===<>vinyl siding, I have no desire to entangle myself in yet another
> "nobody
> > >===<>assumes responsibilty" bout of fingerpointing. It will be a cold
day
> in hell
> > >===<>before I hire another contractor. If I can't do it, then it
doesn't
> need to
> > >===<>be done.
> > >===<>
> > >===<>My pond is supposed to be my peaceful little project, not a way
for
> the rest
> > >===<>of the world to make a buck and call themselves "professionals."
> > >===<>
> > >===<>A
> > >===<>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

[Roy]

Nope sorry to say but I sure wished I was the inventor of
Polyurea........But I can put you in touch with the inventor if you
want.........and no he doe snot get anything out of it, as he invente
dit when he worked for another company....Evidently forums are not cut
out for your tastes are they, you sure do tire when you can't really
come up with a better reason for lkoi kote than Polyurea ....bsides
usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just needs to do
more research before you comit and you would not be having a half
finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is good one
and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you did better
on your selection of pond coaytings.


On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:54:55 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> wrote:

>===<>As a matter of fact, I think I'll just move on to go finish my pond. This
>===<>banter back and forth is tiresome. I hope you all fair well with your ponds
>===<>and if not ask Roy for some help. He's sounds like he's even installed
>===<>polyurea. Maybe co-invented it or something. But either way he has all the
>===<>answers.
>===<>"Wildkarrde" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> Oh boy *rolls eyes* Purchase whatever you guys want. I don;t really care.
>===<>> But like AngrieWoman said, contractors are a pain in the butt. I have
>===<>known
>===<>> too many of them over the past year that told me they were professionals
>===<>on
>===<>> my home project. Guess what? My home still isn't done but everything I
>===<>set
>===<>> out to do on my pond is on track. At least I know I did a good job on my
>===<>> pond and that's good enough for me.
>===<>> "Roy" > wrote in message
>===<>> ...
>===<>> > Naw it sound like you need to do your homework better......
>===<>> >
>===<>> > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:15:46 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
>===<>> > > wrote:
>===<>> >
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> > >===<>"Walter" > wrote in message
>===<>> > ...
>===<>> > >===<>>
>===<>> > >===<>>.... Contractors screw up every
>===<>> > >===<>> day with products, and using it at such and such a place is
>===<>> certainly
>===<>> > >===<>> no guarantee of being a good deal or product by any
>===<>> > >===<>> means.......I<clip>Polyurea
>===<>> > >===<>> will be backed by a factory warranty as long as the installer is
>===<>> > >===<>> certified, and the pond is built accordance to these newly
>===<>worked
>===<>> out
>===<>> > >===<>> standards
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> > >===<>Those statements right there are more than enough to make me
>===<>choose
>===<>> a
>===<>> > >===<>do-it-yourself type product like the OP described.
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> > >===<>1. I doubt my pond is going to be built to meet any professional
>===<>> standards.
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> > >===<>2. After battling contractors with manufacturers over roofing
>===<>> shingles and
>===<>> > >===<>vinyl siding, I have no desire to entangle myself in yet another
>===<>> "nobody
>===<>> > >===<>assumes responsibilty" bout of fingerpointing. It will be a cold
>===<>day
>===<>> in hell
>===<>> > >===<>before I hire another contractor. If I can't do it, then it
>===<>doesn't
>===<>> need to
>===<>> > >===<>be done.
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> > >===<>My pond is supposed to be my peaceful little project, not a way
>===<>for
>===<>> the rest
>===<>> > >===<>of the world to make a buck and call themselves "professionals."
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> > >===<>A
>===<>> > >===<>
>===<>> >
>===<>> >
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>
>===<>

[Wildkarrde]

As I said I did. I'm happy why aren't you?
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Nope sorry to say but I sure wished I was the inventor of
> Polyurea........But I can put you in touch with the inventor if you
> want.........and no he doe snot get anything out of it, as he invente
> dit when he worked for another company....Evidently forums are not cut
> out for your tastes are they, you sure do tire when you can't really
> come up with a better reason for lkoi kote than Polyurea ....bsides
> usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just needs to do
> more research before you comit and you would not be having a half
> finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is good one
> and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you did better
> on your selection of pond coaytings.
>
>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:54:55 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>As a matter of fact, I think I'll just move on to go finish my pond.
This
> >===<>banter back and forth is tiresome. I hope you all fair well with
your ponds
> >===<>and if not ask Roy for some help. He's sounds like he's even
installed
> >===<>polyurea. Maybe co-invented it or something. But either way he has
all the
> >===<>answers.
> >===<>"Wildkarrde" > wrote in message
> ...
> >===<>> Oh boy *rolls eyes* Purchase whatever you guys want. I don;t
really care.
> >===<>> But like AngrieWoman said, contractors are a pain in the butt. I
have
> >===<>known
> >===<>> too many of them over the past year that told me they were
professionals
> >===<>on
> >===<>> my home project. Guess what? My home still isn't done but
everything I
> >===<>set
> >===<>> out to do on my pond is on track. At least I know I did a good
job on my
> >===<>> pond and that's good enough for me.
> >===<>> "Roy" > wrote in message
> >===<>> ...
> >===<>> > Naw it sound like you need to do your homework better......
> >===<>> >
> >===<>> > On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:15:46 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
> >===<>> > > wrote:
> >===<>> >
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> > >===<>"Walter" > wrote in message
> >===<>> > ...
> >===<>> > >===<>>
> >===<>> > >===<>>.... Contractors screw up every
> >===<>> > >===<>> day with products, and using it at such and such a place
is
> >===<>> certainly
> >===<>> > >===<>> no guarantee of being a good deal or product by any
> >===<>> > >===<>> means.......I<clip>Polyurea
> >===<>> > >===<>> will be backed by a factory warranty as long as the
installer is
> >===<>> > >===<>> certified, and the pond is built accordance to these
newly
> >===<>worked
> >===<>> out
> >===<>> > >===<>> standards
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> > >===<>Those statements right there are more than enough to make
me
> >===<>choose
> >===<>> a
> >===<>> > >===<>do-it-yourself type product like the OP described.
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> > >===<>1. I doubt my pond is going to be built to meet any
professional
> >===<>> standards.
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> > >===<>2. After battling contractors with manufacturers over
roofing
> >===<>> shingles and
> >===<>> > >===<>vinyl siding, I have no desire to entangle myself in yet
another
> >===<>> "nobody
> >===<>> > >===<>assumes responsibilty" bout of fingerpointing. It will be
a cold
> >===<>day
> >===<>> in hell
> >===<>> > >===<>before I hire another contractor. If I can't do it, then
it
> >===<>doesn't
> >===<>> need to
> >===<>> > >===<>be done.
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> > >===<>My pond is supposed to be my peaceful little project, not
a way
> >===<>for
> >===<>> the rest
> >===<>> > >===<>of the world to make a buck and call themselves
"professionals."
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> > >===<>A
> >===<>> > >===<>
> >===<>> >
> >===<>> >
> >===<>>
> >===<>>
> >===<>>
> >===<>>
> >===<>
> >===<>
>
>

[Angrie.Woman]

"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>....bsides
> usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just needs to do
> more research before you comit and you would not be having a half
> finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is good one
> and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you did better
> on your selection of pond coaytings.

So, you're saying that the contractors that the manufacturers claimed were
qualified to install the product weren't very good. So, what good is the
qualification then? Besides writing off a weekend seminar in Vegas, I mean.

A

[Wildkarrde]

Angrie.Woman ~ we should just let this one go. It will do nothing more than
annoy the heck out of us who simply try to offer imput and assistance based
on our best knowledge.
I think I'll just lurk here from now on.
"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >....bsides
> > usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just needs to do
> > more research before you comit and you would not be having a half
> > finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is good one
> > and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you did better
> > on your selection of pond coaytings.
>
> So, you're saying that the contractors that the manufacturers claimed were
> qualified to install the product weren't very good. So, what good is the
> qualification then? Besides writing off a weekend seminar in Vegas, I
mean.
>
> A
>
>
>
>

[Roy]

No, what I said was up until now, there has never been a standard to
apply Polyurea. Each and every contractor that used it, used the basic
info and what ever else he thought best. Some used a geocloth backer,
others did not, so used it to spray and make a seal over PVC others
did not, and all these installations had various outcomes. NO one was
actually cewrtified by anyone, to any extent that it amounted to a
hill of beans........it was just whjat ever worked
best.......Therefore lots if not most pond pwners, if a problem came
up had to rely on the installer to make it right as it never was
inteneded for a pond for koi etc to beigin with......so it was always
a pass the buck situation in regards to whose problem it was, the
product being inferior or the installation / pond design technique.

There was only one outfit that was reliable and had been doing
installs for a few years, and were large enough to have the backing of
a major urea manufacturer. Now all the manuf have gotten together, as
well as any interested installers along with the inventer, and they
are going over processes and preceedures, aimed only ata ponds and
water gardens........and come up with a set of standards, which the
feel is best, so if problems do arise down the road, there is
something there that can be used to guide them., as well as make jobs
more standard in regards to what you get for what you spend, in terms
of coating thickness etc. There is just too much variation and thus
price differences between all the applicators, so hopefully now it
will be standardiszed, and the pond owner can see a guidline as to
what should be as well as what they are getting, and have somnething
to judge their pond construction process against instead of just
"well this is the way its always been done" type of deal.

Previously to get a warranty (if any) it was a battle between
installer and manufacturer of the polyureas.....and usually it was the
installer who redid the pond free and the manuf supplied the coatings
or the installer had to bite the bullet himself for redoing it and
supplying the coating... So with standards in place and a given
standard per sq foot cost per installation prices should come down,
and if you use a certified backed installer you should have more
peace of mind and a decent factory backed warranty. I am not pushing
polyureas by no means, as I have no intentions of having a polyureas
lined pond, but they will be cheaper in price than a concrete pond but
somewhat higher than a liner type. but overall offer more benefits in
the long run than either liner or concrete will.

Its a new industry in regards to utilizing it in ponds for koi etc,
but its been in use for many many years with containment faciities,
which do have a standard in place.

As to your statement, what good is a qualification.....nothing in all
reality if its not carried out properly and a done right, but thats
true in any aspect of anything else in this world, from a shoddy made
pair of shoes to a shoddy made car or house.........Someone somewhere
is always going to cut a corner, so as always its still best to have
references, do some research, and then make your choice. At least
the average ponder will have something to bump up his specs to as
compared to what should be, and a list of qualified (did not say
reliable) installers.


On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:48:45 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
> wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>===<>>....bsides
>===<>> usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just needs to do
>===<>> more research before you comit and you would not be having a half
>===<>> finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is good one
>===<>> and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you did better
>===<>> on your selection of pond coaytings.
>===<>
>===<>So, you're saying that the contractors that the manufacturers claimed were
>===<>qualified to install the product weren't very good. So, what good is the
>===<>qualification then? Besides writing off a weekend seminar in Vegas, I mean.
>===<>
>===<>A
>===<>
>===<>

[Wildkarrde]

Ok but the question still remains, how are they going to lower the price?
The material itself is already low. The equipment they have to use to apply
it will remain the same. The only way the price will go down is if the
installers see fit to cut into their margin (and I have no idea how big or
small that is) and offer up a savings that way. Once people are used to
making X amount it becomes easier to justify why they need to make X amount.
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> No, what I said was up until now, there has never been a standard to
> apply Polyurea. Each and every contractor that used it, used the basic
> info and what ever else he thought best. Some used a geocloth backer,
> others did not, so used it to spray and make a seal over PVC others
> did not, and all these installations had various outcomes. NO one was
> actually cewrtified by anyone, to any extent that it amounted to a
> hill of beans........it was just whjat ever worked
> best.......Therefore lots if not most pond pwners, if a problem came
> up had to rely on the installer to make it right as it never was
> inteneded for a pond for koi etc to beigin with......so it was always
> a pass the buck situation in regards to whose problem it was, the
> product being inferior or the installation / pond design technique.
>
> There was only one outfit that was reliable and had been doing
> installs for a few years, and were large enough to have the backing of
> a major urea manufacturer. Now all the manuf have gotten together, as
> well as any interested installers along with the inventer, and they
> are going over processes and preceedures, aimed only ata ponds and
> water gardens........and come up with a set of standards, which the
> feel is best, so if problems do arise down the road, there is
> something there that can be used to guide them., as well as make jobs
> more standard in regards to what you get for what you spend, in terms
> of coating thickness etc. There is just too much variation and thus
> price differences between all the applicators, so hopefully now it
> will be standardiszed, and the pond owner can see a guidline as to
> what should be as well as what they are getting, and have somnething
> to judge their pond construction process against instead of just
> "well this is the way its always been done" type of deal.
>
> Previously to get a warranty (if any) it was a battle between
> installer and manufacturer of the polyureas.....and usually it was the
> installer who redid the pond free and the manuf supplied the coatings
> or the installer had to bite the bullet himself for redoing it and
> supplying the coating... So with standards in place and a given
> standard per sq foot cost per installation prices should come down,
> and if you use a certified backed installer you should have more
> peace of mind and a decent factory backed warranty. I am not pushing
> polyureas by no means, as I have no intentions of having a polyureas
> lined pond, but they will be cheaper in price than a concrete pond but
> somewhat higher than a liner type. but overall offer more benefits in
> the long run than either liner or concrete will.
>
> Its a new industry in regards to utilizing it in ponds for koi etc,
> but its been in use for many many years with containment faciities,
> which do have a standard in place.
>
> As to your statement, what good is a qualification.....nothing in all
> reality if its not carried out properly and a done right, but thats
> true in any aspect of anything else in this world, from a shoddy made
> pair of shoes to a shoddy made car or house.........Someone somewhere
> is always going to cut a corner, so as always its still best to have
> references, do some research, and then make your choice. At least
> the average ponder will have something to bump up his specs to as
> compared to what should be, and a list of qualified (did not say
> reliable) installers.
>
>
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:48:45 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>
> >===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >===<>>....bsides
> >===<>> usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just needs to do
> >===<>> more research before you comit and you would not be having a half
> >===<>> finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is good
one
> >===<>> and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you did
better
> >===<>> on your selection of pond coaytings.
> >===<>
> >===<>So, you're saying that the contractors that the manufacturers
claimed were
> >===<>qualified to install the product weren't very good. So, what good
is the
> >===<>qualification then? Besides writing off a weekend seminar in Vegas,
I mean.
> >===<>
> >===<>A
> >===<>
> >===<>
>
>

[Angrie.Woman]

"Wildkarrde" > wrote in message
...
> Angrie.Woman ~ we should just let this one go. It will do nothing more
> than
> annoy the heck out of us who simply try to offer imput and assistance
> based
> on our best knowledge.
> I think I'll just lurk here from now on.


You're right of course. I can't block the whole thread because I want to see
the pix of the pond. :)

A

[Roy]

Dunno, but from whats been stated the prices should come down
substantially. I'm not in that cat killing by any means......no
polyureas is in my future but its interesting to see what progress
with it is being made and this is a start.

I can only assume, and this is an assumption, some installers use
geotextile as a backing material, others use different
substrates.......yet others say they have had ponds in place for years
with nothing other than the dirt as the support in place as once its
cured its self supporting and needs no support, so popossibly thats a
means of reducing costs not having to need a backing of any type. Just
going to have to see what the standards are when they get it all
hashed out.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:46:24 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> wrote:

>===<>Ok but the question still remains, how are they going to lower the price?
>===<>The material itself is already low. The equipment they have to use to apply
>===<>it will remain the same. The only way the price will go down is if the
>===<>installers see fit to cut into their margin (and I have no idea how big or
>===<>small that is) and offer up a savings that way. Once people are used to
>===<>making X amount it becomes easier to justify why they need to make X amount.
>===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
...
>===<>> No, what I said was up until now, there has never been a standard to
>===<>> apply Polyurea. Each and every contractor that used it, used the basic
>===<>> info and what ever else he thought best. Some used a geocloth backer,
>===<>> others did not, so used it to spray and make a seal over PVC others
>===<>> did not, and all these installations had various outcomes. NO one was
>===<>> actually cewrtified by anyone, to any extent that it amounted to a
>===<>> hill of beans........it was just whjat ever worked
>===<>> best.......Therefore lots if not most pond pwners, if a problem came
>===<>> up had to rely on the installer to make it right as it never was
>===<>> inteneded for a pond for koi etc to beigin with......so it was always
>===<>> a pass the buck situation in regards to whose problem it was, the
>===<>> product being inferior or the installation / pond design technique.
>===<>>
>===<>> There was only one outfit that was reliable and had been doing
>===<>> installs for a few years, and were large enough to have the backing of
>===<>> a major urea manufacturer. Now all the manuf have gotten together, as
>===<>> well as any interested installers along with the inventer, and they
>===<>> are going over processes and preceedures, aimed only ata ponds and
>===<>> water gardens........and come up with a set of standards, which the
>===<>> feel is best, so if problems do arise down the road, there is
>===<>> something there that can be used to guide them., as well as make jobs
>===<>> more standard in regards to what you get for what you spend, in terms
>===<>> of coating thickness etc. There is just too much variation and thus
>===<>> price differences between all the applicators, so hopefully now it
>===<>> will be standardiszed, and the pond owner can see a guidline as to
>===<>> what should be as well as what they are getting, and have somnething
>===<>> to judge their pond construction process against instead of just
>===<>> "well this is the way its always been done" type of deal.
>===<>>
>===<>> Previously to get a warranty (if any) it was a battle between
>===<>> installer and manufacturer of the polyureas.....and usually it was the
>===<>> installer who redid the pond free and the manuf supplied the coatings
>===<>> or the installer had to bite the bullet himself for redoing it and
>===<>> supplying the coating... So with standards in place and a given
>===<>> standard per sq foot cost per installation prices should come down,
>===<>> and if you use a certified backed installer you should have more
>===<>> peace of mind and a decent factory backed warranty. I am not pushing
>===<>> polyureas by no means, as I have no intentions of having a polyureas
>===<>> lined pond, but they will be cheaper in price than a concrete pond but
>===<>> somewhat higher than a liner type. but overall offer more benefits in
>===<>> the long run than either liner or concrete will.
>===<>>
>===<>> Its a new industry in regards to utilizing it in ponds for koi etc,
>===<>> but its been in use for many many years with containment faciities,
>===<>> which do have a standard in place.
>===<>>
>===<>> As to your statement, what good is a qualification.....nothing in all
>===<>> reality if its not carried out properly and a done right, but thats
>===<>> true in any aspect of anything else in this world, from a shoddy made
>===<>> pair of shoes to a shoddy made car or house.........Someone somewhere
>===<>> is always going to cut a corner, so as always its still best to have
>===<>> references, do some research, and then make your choice. At least
>===<>> the average ponder will have something to bump up his specs to as
>===<>> compared to what should be, and a list of qualified (did not say
>===<>> reliable) installers.
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:48:45 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
>===<>> > wrote:
>===<>>
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
>===<>> ...
>===<>> >===<>>....bsides
>===<>> >===<>> usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just needs to do
>===<>> >===<>> more research before you comit and you would not be having a half
>===<>> >===<>> finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is good
>===<>one
>===<>> >===<>> and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you did
>===<>better
>===<>> >===<>> on your selection of pond coaytings.
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>So, you're saying that the contractors that the manufacturers
>===<>claimed were
>===<>> >===<>qualified to install the product weren't very good. So, what good
>===<>is the
>===<>> >===<>qualification then? Besides writing off a weekend seminar in Vegas,
>===<>I mean.
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>A
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>> >===<>
>===<>>
>===<>>
>===<>
>===<>

[Wildkarrde]

Yes I have heard of each of those methods as well. The funny thing is to
watch two or more that apply it differently go back and forth trying to out
proove the other on which way is the best way. I can only imagine what that
conference will be like. It may end up resembling a peace treaty talk LOL.
We'll see.
"Roy" > wrote in message
...
> Dunno, but from whats been stated the prices should come down
> substantially. I'm not in that cat killing by any means......no
> polyureas is in my future but its interesting to see what progress
> with it is being made and this is a start.
>
> I can only assume, and this is an assumption, some installers use
> geotextile as a backing material, others use different
> substrates.......yet others say they have had ponds in place for years
> with nothing other than the dirt as the support in place as once its
> cured its self supporting and needs no support, so popossibly thats a
> means of reducing costs not having to need a backing of any type. Just
> going to have to see what the standards are when they get it all
> hashed out.
>
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:46:24 -0800, "Wildkarrde"
> > wrote:
>
> >===<>Ok but the question still remains, how are they going to lower the
price?
> >===<>The material itself is already low. The equipment they have to use
to apply
> >===<>it will remain the same. The only way the price will go down is if
the
> >===<>installers see fit to cut into their margin (and I have no idea how
big or
> >===<>small that is) and offer up a savings that way. Once people are
used to
> >===<>making X amount it becomes easier to justify why they need to make X
amount.
> >===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
> ...
> >===<>> No, what I said was up until now, there has never been a standard
to
> >===<>> apply Polyurea. Each and every contractor that used it, used the
basic
> >===<>> info and what ever else he thought best. Some used a geocloth
backer,
> >===<>> others did not, so used it to spray and make a seal over PVC
others
> >===<>> did not, and all these installations had various outcomes. NO one
was
> >===<>> actually cewrtified by anyone, to any extent that it amounted to
a
> >===<>> hill of beans........it was just whjat ever worked
> >===<>> best.......Therefore lots if not most pond pwners, if a problem
came
> >===<>> up had to rely on the installer to make it right as it never was
> >===<>> inteneded for a pond for koi etc to beigin with......so it was
always
> >===<>> a pass the buck situation in regards to whose problem it was, the
> >===<>> product being inferior or the installation / pond design
technique.
> >===<>>
> >===<>> There was only one outfit that was reliable and had been doing
> >===<>> installs for a few years, and were large enough to have the
backing of
> >===<>> a major urea manufacturer. Now all the manuf have gotten together,
as
> >===<>> well as any interested installers along with the inventer, and
they
> >===<>> are going over processes and preceedures, aimed only ata ponds and
> >===<>> water gardens........and come up with a set of standards, which
the
> >===<>> feel is best, so if problems do arise down the road, there is
> >===<>> something there that can be used to guide them., as well as make
jobs
> >===<>> more standard in regards to what you get for what you spend, in
terms
> >===<>> of coating thickness etc. There is just too much variation and
thus
> >===<>> price differences between all the applicators, so hopefully now it
> >===<>> will be standardiszed, and the pond owner can see a guidline as
to
> >===<>> what should be as well as what they are getting, and have
somnething
> >===<>> to judge their pond construction process against instead of just
> >===<>> "well this is the way its always been done" type of deal.
> >===<>>
> >===<>> Previously to get a warranty (if any) it was a battle between
> >===<>> installer and manufacturer of the polyureas.....and usually it was
the
> >===<>> installer who redid the pond free and the manuf supplied the
coatings
> >===<>> or the installer had to bite the bullet himself for redoing it and
> >===<>> supplying the coating... So with standards in place and a given
> >===<>> standard per sq foot cost per installation prices should come
down,
> >===<>> and if you use a certified backed installer you should have more
> >===<>> peace of mind and a decent factory backed warranty. I am not
pushing
> >===<>> polyureas by no means, as I have no intentions of having a
polyureas
> >===<>> lined pond, but they will be cheaper in price than a concrete pond
but
> >===<>> somewhat higher than a liner type. but overall offer more benefits
in
> >===<>> the long run than either liner or concrete will.
> >===<>>
> >===<>> Its a new industry in regards to utilizing it in ponds for koi
etc,
> >===<>> but its been in use for many many years with containment
faciities,
> >===<>> which do have a standard in place.
> >===<>>
> >===<>> As to your statement, what good is a qualification.....nothing in
all
> >===<>> reality if its not carried out properly and a done right, but
thats
> >===<>> true in any aspect of anything else in this world, from a shoddy
made
> >===<>> pair of shoes to a shoddy made car or house.........Someone
somewhere
> >===<>> is always going to cut a corner, so as always its still best to
have
> >===<>> references, do some research, and then make your choice. At
least
> >===<>> the average ponder will have something to bump up his specs to as
> >===<>> compared to what should be, and a list of qualified (did not say
> >===<>> reliable) installers.
> >===<>>
> >===<>>
> >===<>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 04:48:45 GMT, "Angrie.Woman"
> >===<>> > wrote:
> >===<>>
> >===<>> >===<>
> >===<>> >===<>"Roy" > wrote in message
> >===<>> ...
> >===<>> >===<>>....bsides
> >===<>> >===<>> usuing a lame excuse "the contractors" I think ya just
needs to do
> >===<>> >===<>> more research before you comit and you would not be
having a half
> >===<>> >===<>> finished or poorly finished everything...afterall there is
good
> >===<>one
> >===<>> >===<>> and bad ones, eveidently you picked the bad ones, hope you
did
> >===<>better
> >===<>> >===<>> on your selection of pond coaytings.
> >===<>> >===<>
> >===<>> >===<>So, you're saying that the contractors that the
manufacturers
> >===<>claimed were
> >===<>> >===<>qualified to install the product weren't very good. So,
what good
> >===<>is the
> >===<>> >===<>qualification then? Besides writing off a weekend seminar in
Vegas,
> >===<>I mean.
> >===<>> >===<>
> >===<>> >===<>A
> >===<>> >===<>
> >===<>> >===<>
> >===<>>
> >===<>>
> >===<>
> >===<>
>
>