EPDM or HDPE

[peter p@n]

I dug a big hole (about 9000 square feet surface; 7 feet max. depth; bank at
4:1 slope) to make a waterfoul and wildlife pond. I have to use a liner. The
selection is between EPDM and HDPE.
which one is better?
do you have any link to suggest?

thanks a lot

pp

[[email protected]]

Hi Peter:
That is a very large area for a liner and will be expensive. If it is
seven feet deep and the soil is compacted it should be able to retain
sufficent level as a wildlife pond, depending the rainfall in your
area or if there is a natural spring feed.
I have purchased liners - for much smaller ponds- from Anjon Building
Products, Chesterfield, MO. and found them very good to deal with. The
best of luck!!!
Richard


http://www.anjonproducts.com/dave.htm

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

What is your plan for filtration? Is HDPE the stiffer, thinner stuff, also
called Permalon? (Off on tangent, where is Ken?)

I've only worked with EPDM, and from other posters here it seems easier to
work with as far as installing pipes and bottom drains. It is heavy though,
especially that much of it. ~ jan

>On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:50:02 GMT, "peter p@n" > wrote:

>I dug a big hole (about 9000 square feet surface; 7 feet max. depth; bank at
>4:1 slope) to make a waterfoul and wildlife pond. I have to use a liner. The
>selection is between EPDM and HDPE.
>which one is better?
>do you have any link to suggest?
>
>thanks a lot
>
>pp
>

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[Bonnie]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
> What is your plan for filtration? Is HDPE the stiffer, thinner stuff, also
> called Permalon? (Off on tangent, where is Ken?)
>
> I've only worked with EPDM, and from other posters here it seems easier to
> work with as far as installing pipes and bottom drains. It is heavy though,
> especially that much of it. ~ jan
>
>
>>On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:50:02 GMT, "peter p@n" > wrote:
>
>
>>I dug a big hole (about 9000 square feet surface; 7 feet max. depth; bank at
>>4:1 slope) to make a waterfoul and wildlife pond. I have to use a liner. The
>>selection is between EPDM and HDPE.
>>which one is better?
>>do you have any link to suggest?
>>
>>thanks a lot
>>
>>pp


I have used both and think they are both very good. The
EPDM will conform to the shape of the pond more easily, but
is very heavy. HDPE will fold and is lighter in weight and
much less expensive. I purchased my HDPE (Permalon) for
Kencofish.com and my EDPM is from Tetra - you can check out
their web sites.

--
Bonnie
NJ

[DH]

Have you considered sodium bentonite? A natural lined pond is usually the
best choice for wildlife. Why do you say you have to use a liner?
Dave
-/-

Try to beat the DragonKoi at Poker Champs...
https://secure.pokerchamps.com/pokerpublic/arequest?acode=DRAGONKOI


"peter p@n" > wrote in message
...
|I dug a big hole (about 9000 square feet surface; 7 feet max. depth; bank
at
| 4:1 slope) to make a waterfoul and wildlife pond. I have to use a liner.
The
| selection is between EPDM and HDPE.
| which one is better?
| do you have any link to suggest?
|
| thanks a lot
|
| pp
|
|

[peter p@n]

>That is a very large area for a liner and will be expensive. If it is
>seven feet deep and the soil is compacted it should be able to retain
>sufficent level as a wildlife pond, depending the rainfall in your
>area or if there is a natural spring feed.

I dug the hole years ago and compacted the soil, but when I fill it (water
from a well) the pond gets empty in a couple of days.

> What is your plan for filtration? Is HDPE the stiffer, thinner stuff, also
> called Permalon?

What do you mean with filtration?
Yes, HDPE is high density polyethylene (like Permalon)

>Have you considered sodium bentonite? A natural lined pond is usually the
>best choice for wildlife. Why do you say you have to use a liner?
>Dave

I considered sodium bentonite, I' d like it, but it implies a lot of soil
moving and waterproofing is not 100% sure.



The main factors in the selection are duration and sturdiness ( maybe my
horse could decide to take a bath...)
anyway I plan to protect the bank with stones and gravel.

thanks to all

pp

[bluegill phil]

If you are close to these people they can save you money. They are the
cheapest I could find http://www.pondliner.com/

[Derek Broughton]

peter p@n wrote:

> I dug a big hole (about 9000 square feet surface; 7 feet max. depth; bank
> at 4:1 slope) to make a waterfoul and wildlife pond. I have to use a
> liner. The selection is between EPDM and HDPE.
> which one is better?

For that size, I really think you have to go with HDPE. EPDM is way too
heavy to work with at that size (it was as much as I could handle alone for
about 250sq ft. surface - about 1000 sq.ft. of actual EPDM).

For a size where you could use either, I wouldn't say either was really
better, just different.
--
derek

[George]

"peter p@n" > wrote in message
...
> >That is a very large area for a liner and will be expensive. If it is
>>seven feet deep and the soil is compacted it should be able to retain
>>sufficent level as a wildlife pond, depending the rainfall in your
>>area or if there is a natural spring feed.
>
> I dug the hole years ago and compacted the soil, but when I fill it (water
> from a well) the pond gets empty in a couple of days.
>
>> What is your plan for filtration? Is HDPE the stiffer, thinner stuff, also
>> called Permalon?
>
> What do you mean with filtration?
> Yes, HDPE is high density polyethylene (like Permalon)
>
>>Have you considered sodium bentonite? A natural lined pond is usually the
>>best choice for wildlife. Why do you say you have to use a liner?
>>Dave
>
> I considered sodium bentonite, I' d like it, but it implies a lot of soil
> moving and waterproofing is not 100% sure.
>
>
>
> The main factors in the selection are duration and sturdiness ( maybe my horse
> could decide to take a bath...)
> anyway I plan to protect the bank with stones and gravel.
>
> thanks to all
>
> pp

I don't know what the difference is in the cost, but maybe you should look inito
using a geotextile fabric. My understanding is that they are much easier to lay
down in a large hole such as yours.

http://www.sarnafilus.com/index/waterproofing_w/products_wp/accessories_wp/separation_and_leveling_layers_wp.htm

[DH]

Bentonite will seal it as good as any natural pond and you can reshape,
dredge or use an excavator on it without draining it. I would suggest you
get a small piece of HDPE and put some gravel on it and have the horse walk
on it before you decide. Make sure it is rounded gravel and a foot thick.

--
Try to beat the DragonKoi at Poker Champs...
https://secure.pokerchamps.com/pokerpublic/arequest?acode=DRAGONKOI

For more information on Poker Champs go here:
http://www.pokerchamps.com/
Remember to enter referer code DRAGONKOI when you join!
"peter p@n" > wrote in message
...
| >That is a very large area for a liner and will be expensive. If it is
| >seven feet deep and the soil is compacted it should be able to retain
| >sufficent level as a wildlife pond, depending the rainfall in your
| >area or if there is a natural spring feed.
|
| I dug the hole years ago and compacted the soil, but when I fill it (water
| from a well) the pond gets empty in a couple of days.
|
| > What is your plan for filtration? Is HDPE the stiffer, thinner stuff,
also
| > called Permalon?
|
| What do you mean with filtration?
| Yes, HDPE is high density polyethylene (like Permalon)
|
| >Have you considered sodium bentonite? A natural lined pond is usually the
| >best choice for wildlife. Why do you say you have to use a liner?
| >Dave
|
| I considered sodium bentonite, I' d like it, but it implies a lot of soil
| moving and waterproofing is not 100% sure.
|
|
|
| The main factors in the selection are duration and sturdiness ( maybe my
| horse could decide to take a bath...)
| anyway I plan to protect the bank with stones and gravel.
|
| thanks to all
|
| pp
|
|

[angela.copley]

DH Wrote:
> Bentonite will seal it as good as any natural pond and you can reshape,
> dredge or use an excavator on it without draining it. I would suggest
> you
> get a small piece of HDPE and put some gravel on it and have the horse
> walk
> on it before you decide. Make sure it is rounded gravel and a foot
> thick.
>
> --
> Try to beat the DragonKoi at Poker Champs...
> http://tinyurl.com/5u38p
>
> For more information on Poker Champs go he
> http://www.pokerchamps.com/
> Remember to enter referer code DRAGONKOI when you join!
> "peter p@n" wrote in message
> ...
> | That is a very large area for a liner and will be expensive. If it
> is
> | seven feet deep and the soil is compacted it should be able to
> retain
> | sufficent level as a wildlife pond, depending the rainfall in your
> | area or if there is a natural spring feed.
> |
> | I dug the hole years ago and compacted the soil, but when I fill it
> (water
> | from a well) the pond gets empty in a couple of days.
> |
> | What is your plan for filtration? Is HDPE the stiffer, thinner
> stuff,
> also
> | called Permalon?
> |
> | What do you mean with filtration?
> | Yes, HDPE is high density polyethylene (like Permalon)
> |
> | Have you considered sodium bentonite? A natural lined pond is usually
> the
> | best choice for wildlife. Why do you say you have to use a liner?
> | Dave
> |
> | I considered sodium bentonite, I' d like it, but it implies a lot of
> soil
> | moving and waterproofing is not 100% sure.
> |
> |
> |
> | The main factors in the selection are duration and sturdiness ( maybe
> my
> | horse could decide to take a bath...)
> | anyway I plan to protect the bank with stones and gravel.
> |
> | thanks to all
> |
> | pp
> |
> |
I am considering bentomat but cannot locate a uk retailer. Does anyone
have this information?


--
angela.copley

[Derek Broughton]

angela.copley wrote:

> I am considering bentomat but cannot locate a uk retailer. Does anyone
> have this information?

Bentonite is just a fine clay. Quite likely with a different name on your
side of the pond :-) I'd talk to landscapers.
--
derek

[dkat]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> angela.copley wrote:
>
> > I am considering bentomat but cannot locate a uk retailer. Does anyone
> > have this information?
>
> Bentonite is just a fine clay. Quite likely with a different name on your
> side of the pond :-) I'd talk to landscapers.
> --
> derek

From a potter's point of view - different clays are not the same fish....

from digitalfire.com

Bentonite is the most plastic, impermeable, and fine grained common clay
material used in ceramics.

Raw bentonite is generally a pale green, buff, cream, or grey material
composed of the clay mineral montmorillonite. Its origin can be traced to
ancient volcanic eruptions where fine volcanic ash particles were carried by
winds and deposited in discrete layers which altered over time from the
glassy state to claystone.

There is a huge variation in the chemistries of bentonites, it is impossible
to specify an average. The analysis shown only attempts to represent the
amounts you might find in a common variety.

In North America, bentonites are mined in Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota and
Saskatchewan and used in things like porcelain, toothpaste, tablets,
cosmetics, oil drilling mud, oven cleaners, insecticides, putty, paint, ink,
paper, polishes, cleansing agents, explosives, detergents, plastics and
rubber.

Fine particle size: Bentonite is colloidal and typically 10 times finer than
ball clay. It can have a surface area of almost 1000 square meters per gram
(50 times that of kaolin, 5000 times that of silica flour).

Plasticity: Because of their active electrolytic behavior and fine particle
size, bentonites exhibit extremely high plasticity (and associated high
shrinkage). In pottery and porcelain clay bodies additions of only 2% can
produce marked improvements in workability and dry strength.

Bentonite is far too plastic to prepare test specimens (e.g. for drying,
strength and shrinkage evaluation). However, a mix of 10-20% virgin material
with 80-90% calcined can be extruded and formed (test specimens will still
shrink to a very small size).

Thixotropy: Bentonite is valuable in preventing suspensions from settling
over time because it tends to gel. Thus, it is common to see bentonite in
glaze recipes. While typical industrial thixotropic agents employ various
mechanisms bentonite works by charge attraction. Charges develop on the
surfaces and edges of dispersed particles and give rise to a stable
'house-of-cards' structure that can be disrupted by shear stress. However
when the stress is removed, the structure reestablishes itself.

Swelling: Most bentonites expand (as much as 15 times) when added to water.
This characteristic is valuable in thickening liquids and slurries and is
another contributing factor to maintaining suspensions. Bentonite is used in
large quantities in the gas and oil drilling industries to suspend high
specific gravity slurries which are used as a medium to float out the chunks
of rock cut by the drill bit.

Chemically inert, Inorganic, Non-irritating: Formulations which are not
fired are not altered chemically by bentonite additions. Bentonite does not
support organic growth. Thus it is suitable as a carrier for personal care
products like hand cream and cosmetics.

Binder: Bentonite binds particles together in ceramic bodies to make them
stronger in the green or dry state. Its minute particles fill voids between
others to produce a more dense mass. Adding bentonite to glazes imparts
better dry strength and a harder and more durable surface.

Suspender: Maximum suspending benefit can be achieved by blunging bentonite
with the water before adding the other dry materials (to insure that every
particle is whetted on all sides). However, this can be difficult even with
a propeller mixer. If necessary dry mix the bentonite with the silica or
feldspar then blunge thoroughly (for hours if possible).

Firing: Standard grades typically vitrify (around Orton cone 6-10) to grey
to deep red coloration. However soluble salts can be so high that they form
a glaze on pure test specimens. Utility grades often contain granular iron
material that causes specking in clay bodies. Still a white body can often
tolerate a few percent bentonite without firing significantly darker,
although it is important to use a finely ground ceramic grade to avoid
specking (finer than 200 mesh).

There are a number of white firing and highly refined bentonites produced
for the ceramic industry. However they tend to have much less plasticity and
are many times more expensive.

[~Roy~]

A ponder only needs ro be concerned with western bentonite if your
interested in sealing a dirt type pond.........which on average
swells up to 20- 22 times its dry size. It is sodium based IIRC. There
is also huge deposits of Bentonite in the southeast, with Alabama
having one of the largest bentonite mines, but it is calcium
based......and will only swell up to 5 x its dry size........I use
both western and southern bentonite for my greensand (foundry sand for
casting metals) as one bentonite is not suitable as it lacks what the
other has, so blends are necessary. The mine here is only about 10
miles from my place, and I have free access to any bentonite that gets
spilled on the floor of the warehouse.......they bring in western
bentonite and stock it here, and I also get it as its always busting
bags and large 10,000 pound containers its shipped in......Bentonite
(western) will seal a pond very effectively if its mixed in the soil
prior to filling the pond with water, or if a pond leaks it can be
braodcast on the surface, and seepage or flowing leaks will pull it
into the voids where it accumulates and swells thus effectively
plugging up a leak or sealing a seeping pond. Its dirt cheap. The so
called Koi clay is actually southern bentonite........both western and
southern are montmoriliate (sp?) clays, and are collodial in nature. I
would look for a place in the UK that sells foundry products and ask
for it there. I know foundry work is big stuff in the UK, so its bound
to be there as its the most commonly used material for making
greensand.......They should have sodium asa well as calcium bentonites
as it takes both kinds to make foundry sands.

I may have the calcium mixed up with the sodium, but western what ever
it is is whats used for sealing ponds........and koi clay is southern





==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

[Derek Broughton]

dkat wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> angela.copley wrote:
>>
>> > I am considering bentomat but cannot locate a uk retailer. Does anyone
>> > have this information?
>>
>> Bentonite is just a fine clay. Quite likely with a different name on
>> your
>> side of the pond :-) I'd talk to landscapers.
>
> From a potter's point of view - different clays are not the same fish....

Absolutely true, and thanks for the in-depth definition. I wasn't trying to
imply that Angela could just use any kind of clay (though I might have
managed to do just that :-) ), but that possibly she can't find bentonite
because it's practically a tradition to give things different English names
on different sides of The Pond.
--
derek

[Ann in Houston]

I don't know if I got a bad piece or what, but I have never heard
anyone with the same problem I had with my permalon liner. It
separated. And it leaked after less than five years. We put in a new
EPDM liner this spring. I was very surprised that the permalon did
that, considering the purpose for which it is made. I don't know if
our extreme heat, day after day made the difference or what.
It really undermined any chance of having a flexible liner in the new
koi pond we built. DH had always distrusted flexibles, and that just
clinched it. So, our new pond is not nearly deep enough because it is
hard to get rigid liners more than 30 inches deep.

[Derek Broughton]

Ann in Houston wrote:

> I don't know if I got a bad piece or what, but I have never heard
> anyone with the same problem I had with my permalon liner. It

It's not uncommon (or at least it wasn't with early HDPEs), I've heard of it
happening a few times. Yes, it's a bad piece.
--
derek

[DKat]

--
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

- H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> dkat wrote:
>
>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> angela.copley wrote:
>>>
>>> > I am considering bentomat but cannot locate a uk retailer. Does anyone
>>> > have this information?
>>>
>>> Bentonite is just a fine clay. Quite likely with a different name on
>>> your
>>> side of the pond :-) I'd talk to landscapers.
>>
>> From a potter's point of view - different clays are not the same fish....
>
> Absolutely true, and thanks for the in-depth definition. I wasn't trying
> to
> imply that Angela could just use any kind of clay (though I might have
> managed to do just that :-) ), but that possibly she can't find bentonite
> because it's practically a tradition to give things different English
> names
> on different sides of The Pond.
> --
> derek
Sorry - didn't mean to imply that... just being chatty and adding the info I
had. Communicating hard... Thinking hard... must go ponder.... Mongo just
great pawn in life.