That's it, I've had it - Blue Green Algae

[Shawn]

I can't take it any more. I simply cannot beat or keep up with the
blue-green algae outbreak I've had now for about 5 months. I've tried
everything. Blacking out the tank, removing my CO2 system, algicide
treatments - nothing works. It makes my tanks look like crap, and it's
killing all my plants. Their leaves are coated with thick slimy green
sheets of blue-green algae, and they're falling apart little by little. My
plants used to thrive and my tank was lush. My community fish species don't
seem to care one way or another, but for me it's just simply not a joy to
watch my tank anymore.

So now, looks like I face a compete take down. But I have some questions :

1) Do blue-green algae cells die when dried, or do they just do dormant ?
The BGA is infused through my gravel substrate so I need to completely wash
that out when I take down. But do I need to treat it when bleach to ensure
BGA's death ? Or will just rinsing and rinsing and rinsing and then drying
for a while do the trick ?

2) Can I save my plants ? These seems to be the things most covered by BGA.
Right down into the roots in the gravel substrate. Can I bleach-dip the
plants and kill the algae ? Or am I better off throwing them out and
starting over ?

3) My driftwood pieces are also covered in BGA. Should I boil ? Dry ?
Bleach ? What about other things like my filter components. If BGA just
goes dormant when dried, then something more drastic needs to be done to
ensure I complete do away with it, other than just drying.

4) How should I treat my empty tank and for how long ?

Thanks about it. Any other thoughts/advice would be well appreciated.
Thanks.

Shawn

[Richard Sexton]

Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
rid of it.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Shagster]

The ONLY thing that ever worked for me was Myracin. That product is
fabulous. Try it out, and follow the directions exactly.


Troy



"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>
> Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
> rid of it.
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Shawn]

My LFS tells me that Myacin and a whole suite of other anitbiotics and fish
medicine are no longer legal to be sold. Any ideas on where I could get it
online ?

Thanks


"Shagster" > wrote in message
...
> The ONLY thing that ever worked for me was Myracin. That product is
> fabulous. Try it out, and follow the directions exactly.
>
>
> Troy
>
>
>
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
>> rid of it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
>> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
>> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
>
>

[Shawn]

Where can I get KNO3 ? Is that availabe at a LFS ? I do weekly large water
changes - nearly the entire tank actually, leaving just enough for the fish
to keep swimming, before I refill. Then I treat with something called
"ALGAEFIX". This knocked the crap out the BGA (as well as making the rest
of my plants look quite poor), and I contined the treatment for several
weeks, as it said in the directions. But once I stopped, with another
couple weeks the BGA reappeared and gradually got worse again. I don't want
to have to maintain my tank forever on medicine and chemicals. I ran it for
the first 4 years without a single breakout.

Shawn

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>
> Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
> rid of it.
>
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Robert Flory]

Grants Stump remover. Iyt can be gotten at any garden shop, hardware store
or at places like the BORG and yardbirds.

Bob
"Shawn" > wrote in message
...
> Where can I get KNO3 ? Is that availabe at a LFS ? I do weekly large
> water changes - nearly the entire tank actually, leaving just enough for
> the fish to keep swimming, before I refill. Then I treat with something
> called "ALGAEFIX". This knocked the crap out the BGA (as well as making
> the rest of my plants look quite poor), and I contined the treatment for
> several weeks, as it said in the directions. But once I stopped, with
> another couple weeks the BGA reappeared and gradually got worse again. I
> don't want to have to maintain my tank forever on medicine and chemicals.
> I ran it for the first 4 years without a single breakout.
>
> Shawn
>
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Have you tried large water changes and adding kno3? That's how I get
>> rid of it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
>> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
>> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
>
>

[[email protected]]

Shawn you will never have good results at prevention/reoccurance
without using KNO3.

That's a plant nutrient, antibiotics, algefix etc etc etc etc etc are
not.

The focus is growing the plants, not becoming versed in algicdal
products.
I find them to totally useless.

I might use H2O2. bleacj to clean equipment, but I jyust trim and
vacuum the algae out, that never harms the plants and removes the
problem.

BGA/Green water need killed and removed, or they will come back after
you correct the evnvironmental issues that caused the algae.

A 3 day blackout
50% water at the start and the end
Adding 1/4 teaspoon per 25 gal after each water change
Then adding 1/4 teaspoon at least 1-2x a week thereafter will prevent
BGA and other algae from ever bothering you.

Your plants will grow much better as well.

Algaefix, Antibiotics, Myacan, Snake oils will never make your plants
grow better.

3 day blackout is free.
Those are not.

try ordering from Greg www.gregwatson.com

Get:

2lbs or so KNO3
1 lb KH2PO4
1 lb Trace mix with Boron.

Dirt cheap and these actually grow plants and are very easy to dose and
add.

BGA will infect a tasnk about 1-2 months after treatment.
It's always there, so treating the reason why it appears..........poor
plant growth(even if you might not think so) will help prevent any
algae, not just BGA.

Just do this and do all of this advice and you will not have any BGA.
If you delete the KNO3, the BGA will simply come back.

The fisgh should remain in the tank etc, turn off the CO2.
The plants will be fine and live through 3 days of blackout, they are
sent via mail and can easily handle 3 days in the dark.

Regards,
Tom Barr












will

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Shawn > wrote:
>Where can I get KNO3 ? Is that availabe at a LFS ? I do weekly large water
>changes - nearly the entire tank actually, leaving just enough for the fish
>to keep swimming, before I refill. Then I treat with something called
>"ALGAEFIX". This knocked the crap out the BGA (as well as making the rest
>of my plants look quite poor), and I contined the treatment for several
>weeks, as it said in the directions. But once I stopped, with another
>couple weeks the BGA reappeared and gradually got worse again. I don't want
>to have to maintain my tank forever on medicine and chemicals. I ran it for
>the first 4 years without a single breakout.

Ah, ok, the algaefix killed off the firendly bacteria and your
tank is a now going through the algae succession that occurs with
new tank syndrome.

Change 80% of the water a day. On about the 4th day it should be almost
all gone. Keep doing it till it is.

Marcyn is overkill. Water changes alone will fix this, you don't need
more chemnicals. You were right ion figuring out algaefix would eradicate BA
though.

kno3 is potassium nitrate. blue green alage thrices in low nitrate
conditions. Hydroponics stores are the best source of this as nitrate
from a petshop fertilizer bottyle is stupid expensive.

Don't you just love that smell of blue gree n alage?

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[spiral_72]

Hey, I am fighting with the same stuff. I had small patches at 30w of
light. Now that I run 150W I can hardly keep ahead of the stuff, I am
going to try to control phosphates first. I'll let you know haow that
turns out.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[steve]

wrote:
> Shawn you will never have good results at prevention/reoccurance
> without using KNO3.

I took this advice and it has worked for me so far. I did the blackout
for 4 days in my large tank and I make sure to add a small amount of
KN03 weekly at water change time. I monitor the Nitrates and
Phosphates throughout the week and only add KNO3 when the measurable
nitrates are below 5ppm.

> A 3 day blackout
> 50% water at the start and the end
> Adding 1/4 teaspoon KN03 per 25 gal after each water change
> Then adding 1/4 teaspoon at least 1-2x a week thereafter will prevent
> BGA and other algae from ever bothering you.

This is sound advice, as I recommended above. However, I think Tom is
assumming we all have aquatic jungles with low fish loads when he
advises to add KNO3 twice weekly thereafter. Sure, it will ward off
BGA, but without sufficient plant growth you will suffer a green algae
breakout in my experience.

> try ordering from Greg www.gregwatson.com
>
> Get:
>
> 2lbs or so KNO3
> 1 lb KH2PO4
> 1 lb Trace mix with Boron.

I took this advice also and over did it. Once again, I had what I felt
were alot of plants. Hey, it was more than I ever had! At the time I
had 5 $2.99 bunches of plants and some java fern in a 55g tank. When I
added KH2P04 and KNO3, in no time I had green algae covering every
surface in the tank. Nice furry hairy stuff. It took bleach dips and
massive water changes to clear it. Now, I closely monitor both
nitrates and P04 (phosphate) and only add KN03 and KH2P04 when
necessary. In fact, I haven't dosed with KH2P04 again. I've since
bought some KCI potassium and use that for my K dosing. Now my tank is
running fine. I've also added many more plants and I expect to be
seeing my nitrate levels diminish throughout the week. I haven't yet
though, because the fish food going in has not yet equaled the plant
usage.

http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/plantsFeb13.jpg


> Just do this and do all of this advice and you will not have any BGA.
> If you delete the KNO3, the BGA will simply come back.

Another data point: In my fry tank I had long term BGA that I finally
had to take care of. The clump of java moss in there was turning into
the blob; a great big slimy ball of gelatnus goo. I used the Emycin
antibiotic treatment to kill the BGA and now use a very small dose of
KNO3 to keep it away.


steve

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
steve > wrote:
>
wrote:
>> Shawn you will never have good results at prevention/reoccurance
>> without using KNO3.
>
>I took this advice and it has worked for me so far. I did the blackout
>for 4 days in my large tank and I make sure to add a small amount of
>KN03 weekly at water change time. I monitor the Nitrates and
>Phosphates throughout the week and only add KNO3 when the measurable
>nitrates are below 5ppm.
>
>> A 3 day blackout
>> 50% water at the start and the end
>> Adding 1/4 teaspoon KN03 per 25 gal after each water change
>> Then adding 1/4 teaspoon at least 1-2x a week thereafter will prevent
>> BGA and other algae from ever bothering you.
>
>This is sound advice, as I recommended above. However, I think Tom is
>assumming we all have aquatic jungles with low fish loads when he
>advises to add KNO3 twice weekly thereafter. Sure, it will ward off
>BGA, but without sufficient plant growth you will suffer a green algae
>breakout in my experience.

Keep in mind blue green algae (cyanobacteria) thrives in low nitrate
environments so you shouldn't see it in a tank with a lot of fish.

I don't bother withthe blackout, I want my plants to keep going. I
just changes lots of water.

This is, by the way the problem with using algicides such as peroxide or
algae fix to eradicate the bactraial alage (staghorn, bba, cyanobacteria)
whcih seems to be about the only kinds of alage this stuff kills - once
it's killed the algae you now have the problems that your beneficial
bacteria is gone and the rotting dead alage causes a larger
ammonia problkem than you'd otherwise think. Your crypts will love
you - mmmmmmmmm ammonia - but now you'll get the algae succession
you get with a new tank. So, after using algicide youreally need to
change massiuve amounts of water for a while IMO.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
spiral_72 > wrote:
>Hey, I am fighting with the same stuff. I had small patches at 30w of
>light. Now that I run 150W I can hardly keep ahead of the stuff, I am
>going to try to control phosphates first. I'll let you know haow that
>turns out.

If you eradicate all phosphates you'll have alage problems of a different
nature - green spot alage only thrives with low or no phosphates. You
want to keep a nominal phosphate level - plants absolutely need it and
if they run out they'll stop growing and only the algae will then use
the available light and remaining nbutrients.

Change a LOT of water, this will cause the alage to wesken and release
spores to try to stay alive. Change a lkot of wate the next day and you'll
get rid of most of it. Keep doing it and each day you'll have less and
you'll feel much happier about it. In a few days it'll be gone.

Blue green thrives when the plants used up all the nitrates. Just
don't run out of NO3 again and it won't come back.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Bill]

"Shawn" > Spaketh Thusly:

>I can't take it any more. I simply cannot beat or keep up with the
>blue-green algae outbreak I've had now for about 5 months.
....

>Thanks about it. Any other thoughts/advice would be well appreciated.
I haven't seen any in any of my tanks for a while, but a few years ago I would
get it periodically. Now, I was fighting spots of it and not a whole tank, but
this cured mine for good:
1. Make sure your C02 levels don't fluctuate - keep it as steady as possible.
2. Never skip your water changes - ever (traveling out of state on business
caused me problems).
3. Hydrogen Peroxide - the 3% drugstore brand. 1/4 oz. (that's one quarter of
an ounce of the 3% type) in a 29G tank every two or three days. Apply with a
turkey baster (I got to keep it, my wife didn't want it back, now it's a
permanent part of my aquarium supplies) DIRECTLY on the worst spot. Do the
happy dance as you see it bubble and listen for the BGA screaming in pain :-)
You'll see results the next day. In a bigger tank you can do more, in a
smaller do less. I was very conservative - this amount didn't hurt any fish
and didn't even seem to hurt any bacteria - all my levels stayed the same.
I was able to totally clear out an infestation about the size of a fist in a
week.

I got all the above info here on r.a.f.p, but it was several (3 or 4) years
ago and I can't pin down the time frame close enough to find the thread. I
remember that one person had used at least twice as much as I did and more
often with only very minor problems, but I didn't want to take a chance so I
went very easy with it. If there's no fish in the tank you can use more.

Important: if conditions in the tank are right for it, it WILL come back. Find
and fix the underlying problem while you're clearing it out, or you'll just
have to do it again. And again.

Good luck. Sorry I can't locate the original thread, it had lots of details on
doses and other people's experiences. If you're patient you might be able to
google it up.


--
Bill H. [my "reply to" address is real]
www.necka.net
Molon Labe!

[spiral_72]

Hey, I think I just found out last night why I am growing so much BGA.
I stopped by the LFS on the way home from work and bought a phosphate
test kit. From what I have read it should be 0-1mg/L..... The test kit
measured 0-5mg/L....... clear to blue. Mine registered off the
scale..... It was a deep purple. Guess I need to take some steps to fix
that ASAP. I figure I can buy those phosphate absorbing pills or add A
LOT more plants...... or both.

What do y'all think?

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Bob Alston]

spiral_72 wrote:
> Hey, I think I just found out last night why I am growing so much BGA.
> I stopped by the LFS on the way home from work and bought a phosphate
> test kit. From what I have read it should be 0-1mg/L..... The test kit
> measured 0-5mg/L....... clear to blue. Mine registered off the
> scale..... It was a deep purple. Guess I need to take some steps to fix
> that ASAP. I figure I can buy those phosphate absorbing pills or add A
> LOT more plants...... or both.
>
> What do y'all think?
>
> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>
50% weekly water changes will help a lot.

Bob

[Margolis]

"Bob Alston" > wrote in message
news:9poQd.13251$Zr.10304@okepread03...
> 50% weekly water changes will help a lot.
>
> Bob


unless there is phosphate in the replacement water or the dechlorinator

spiral, check the phosphates in your tap water if that is what you use.
Also, do you use anything like neutral regulator or ph right, etc...?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[spiral_72]

No actually I quit using pH 7.0 about 6 months ago. I saw a post about
phosphate buffers and sure enough.... the stuff was a phosphate buffer.
Currently I use NO chemicals at all and about 1 teaspoon of phosphate
free carbon (Black Diamond) in only one of the filters. I am doing a
30% water change with a vacuum every Saturday just to stay ahead of the
BGA while I try different things. I am going to test my tap (well)
water tonight, thank you. I have tried blackout... it works but only
temporarily. My problem is pretty advanced. In 3-4 days I have a good
covering, primarily on the right side of the tank. This is the side
with only two java ferns and the whisper filter. My plants are
primarily on the left. I would say my tank maintenence is pretty good
although I am still learning. I will NOT start the tank over. What will
I learn from that? It may very well be coming from my tap water....
that'll be great.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Bob Alston]

Margolis wrote:
> "Bob Alston" > wrote in message
> news:9poQd.13251$Zr.10304@okepread03...
>
>>50% weekly water changes will help a lot.
>>
>>Bob
>
>
>
> unless there is phosphate in the replacement water or the dechlorinator
>
> spiral, check the phosphates in your tap water if that is what you use.
> Also, do you use anything like neutral regulator or ph right, etc...?
>
Agree it is possible. But in my experience more likely from the flake
food and overfeeding.

Bob

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
spiral_72 > wrote:
>Hey, I think I just found out last night why I am growing so much BGA.
>I stopped by the LFS on the way home from work and bought a phosphate
>test kit. From what I have read it should be 0-1mg/L..... The test kit
>measured 0-5mg/L....... clear to blue. Mine registered off the
>scale..... It was a deep purple. Guess I need to take some steps to fix
>that ASAP. I figure I can buy those phosphate absorbing pills or add A
>LOT more plants...... or both.
>
>What do y'all think?

I think you havn't been changing water enough. The absorbing pillow will
take longer than you want to wait to work. Change 80% of the weater
till it's gone then doweekly 50% changes. Test your tapwatrer for
phosphatre.

What do you fed? (some foods are higher in PO4 than others)

Do you use carbon? (It can leech phosphate)


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[spiral_72]

I feed TetraMin flakes for tropical fish and four sinking cat pellets
once a day about 7pm. Also about every week and a half I feed frozen
blood worms to replace the flake. I do use carbon, Black Diamond
(pakage says phosphate free)..... a very small amount (1 tsp) in one
filter bag replaced monthly.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Elaine T]

spiral_72 wrote:
> I feed TetraMin flakes for tropical fish and four sinking cat pellets
> once a day about 7pm. Also about every week and a half I feed frozen
> blood worms to replace the flake. I do use carbon, Black Diamond
> (pakage says phosphate free)..... a very small amount (1 tsp) in one
> filter bag replaced monthly.
>
> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>
To test for phosphates in your carbon, set up your phosphate test with
distilled or RO water and drop a few grains of carbon into it.
(Reefkeepers' trick). I believe you're right that Black Diamond does
actually test phosphate free but it can't hurt to try.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Margolis]

"Bob Alston" > wrote in message
news:yvqQd.13255$Zr.12796@okepread03...
> Agree it is possible. But in my experience more likely from the flake
> food and overfeeding.
>



I can't see how overfeeding could get it to go off the scale. Even a whole
can of flake with a high phosphorous content wouldn't get it that high I
wouldn't think.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[spiral_72]

I tested my tap water last night.... 0.25mg/L of phosphate
I wasn't real sure what to do. I cleaned the tank again last night. The
stuff is growing at a tremendous rate. It has attacked my java ferns,
driftwood, rock and gravel but for the most part it has left my Amazon
Swords alone. I can't get over it grows primarily on the right side. I
will test my carbon tonight. I use so little of it, I doubt that's it.
I really do clean quite well, so I doubt it is fish/food waste. I am
scared it will be my substrate. It doesn't really make any sense to
have an outbreak after a year of being setup though.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[spiral_72]

Oh, I am running a blackout starting last night. With any luck I can
get regain some control of this thing.
What do you think? I read in a book (I think) that algae can only take
advantage of a long period of light, while plants can take some
advantage of several shorter periods. Any experience with that? Could I
run my lights for just two hours several times a day and cut down on
algae growth?

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

Spiral,

Rather than going 5 different directions about algae, focus on the dang
plants!
Take care of their needs.

The PO4 issue could be the test kit, you are relying all the issue on
that, that has NOTHING to do with BGA or outbreaks of algae unless it's
too low.

Tell me, anyone, what is the difference between 2ppm of PO4 and say
5ppm of PO4 regarding algae, will one cause algae ansd the other will
not? I've dosed 1-2ppm of PO4 in my tanks for oh..........about 15
years ..........where is my algae?

I'll tell you, it's not there and PO4 excess does not cause algae in a
well planted tank.

Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
will...................

It';s simply much easier and straight forward for a new person to focus
on the plant's needs.

I am over playing the notion of NOT using antibiotics because it's an
easy solution to a more complicated issue.

KNO3 is what the tank is lacking, not antibiotics.

Blackout and antiobiotics merely kill what's there, it does NOT solve
your issue.

Ask your self this: why do I have algae?
Poor plant growth.

When the plants are growing well, you have no algae.
So focus on the plants.

Any plant can handle a 3 day blackout, if you fail to add the KNO3
back, the BGa will come back in a few days, if you fail to add the KNO3
doing the antiobiotic, it'll come back in 1-2 months, perhaps longer if
you feed more etc or somehow start adding more Nitrogen.

The blackout allows you to repeat the KNO3 test and shows you rather
quickly that the lack of KNO3 encourages a BGA bloom. It would have
taken me years to figure that out using antibiotics.............so
pills don't teach you much either.

Stay healthy and you don't get sick and need pills/algae fix, Copper
etc, so keep your plants healthy.
Rather than the quick fix, look at the long term solution, then folks
can get back to talking about plants and not algae .........

This is much easier and actually deceptively simple.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
> wrote:
>Tell me, anyone, what is the difference between 2ppm of PO4 and say
>5ppm of PO4 regarding algae, will one cause algae ansd the other will
>not? I've dosed 1-2ppm of PO4 in my tanks for oh..........about 15
>years ..........where is my algae?

It's here in one of my tanks. Do you want me to mail it to you
or something?

*******.

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[[email protected]]

Sure. Send it, I'll tell you the species too.
My pioint is really, if the algae likes excess, why don't we see it in
tank with obvious excess levels of NO3 and PO4, light, CO2, Fe/traces,
K+, Ca, Mg ??????

Surely excess is 2ppm of orthophosphate(DIP) which is the most
bioavailable form of PO4.
How is that different than say 5ppm?

How much is too much PO4?
I have no practical reason to dose more than 2ppm but I'd like to know
what range causes problems...
I really do not know of an upper limit. If you have some concrete data,
that would be interesting.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[spiral_72]

Well, as much as all that hurt my feelings...... You might have a
point. With the exception of my banana plant, my plant growth is slow
to almost stopped.

"How much is too much PO4?" I've not seen any concrete data either, but
since the test measures 0-5mg/L and assuming the manufacturer is the
expert (Hagen) I figgered 5 was way too much..... and about 2.5 was
acceptable (middle of the test range), while 0 or 2.5 was ideal. Is
that a ridiculous assumption? After all, what good is a gauge if it
reads something other than an ideal or expected quantity?

Just for the record I changed about 30% water in my 55g this weekend
with < 0.25mg/L tap water. Before and after the water change, the test
measured purple (off the scale.) I soaked a handful of my carbon (new,
out of the can) in 16oz of clean tap water... The water was < 0.25mg/L
PO4 before and after I mixed the carbon. I tested my peat (new) using
the same method.... no change in PO4 before and after. I broke off a
small piece of the substrate fertilizer I use.... No change.
Therefore, it appears PO4 is leeching from my substrate or I have
decaying fish waste laying everywhere (which I don't.) The way I figure
it, I can:
1.Sell everything, and give up.
2.Continue to clean the tank twice a week and hope things clear up.
3.Buy lots of plants and/or some PO4 "sponge" and wait.
4.Take Tom Barr's suggestion and:

dose (KNO3) Potassium Nitrate (How do you know mine is low?)

"Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
will............."
(NO3) Nitrates is zero. With my low fish load. it's to be expected.
Lots of people run a very low fish load planted tank. You can't dose
Nitrates. Can you? Nitrates are generated by bacteria breaking
down.....forms of organic waste.
GH is 7d(125ppm) a little on the soft side.
PO4 is very high.... that's what I am concerned with
CO2 by calculation is about 8ppm. Not too bad right?.... a little low
(K) Potassium.... I have no idea.

So, not to start a fight...... What is wrong with this picture? I ask
questions to learn. The phosphates are the only thing I can find that
are out of the ordinary. I don't have a test kit for everything. That
would cost hundreds of dollars. While I agree that low plant growth
must be an indicator of something, I expect to run some extra CO2 and
they will flourish. No? Maybe not. Do I purchase some leaf fertilezer
with iron and all the trace elements and give that a shot? I think I am
going about finding a solution fairly methodically. I sure hope when
this is all finished, someone can search for BGA in Google and find
this trial with a solution.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Nikki Casali]

spiral_72 wrote:
> dose (KNO3) Potassium Nitrate (How do you know mine is low?)
>

Use a nitrate, NO3, test kit.

KNO3 is a molecule composed of elements O, N and K. You knew that,
anyway, yes?

> "Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
> will............."

NO3 is a constituent of KNO3, so is K.

> (NO3) Nitrates is zero. With my low fish load. it's to be expected.

That's your problem. The plants can't use up any further P if N is zero,
hence your high PO4 or P. Your plants are craving for nitrogen!

> Lots of people run a very low fish load planted tank. You can't dose
> Nitrates. Can you? Nitrates are generated by bacteria breaking
> down.....forms of organic waste.

What? Nitrates = NO3. Dosing KNO3 is dosing your tank with nitrates,
plus some potassium. I don't think the plants really care about its source.

Nikki

[Pete]

"spiral_72" > wrote in news:1109008752.449041.270760
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Well, as much as all that hurt my feelings...... You might have a
> point. With the exception of my banana plant, my plant growth is slow
> to almost stopped.
>
.......
>
> "Now poor CO2, lack of NO3, K, traces, GH, PO4 etc sure
> will............."
> (NO3) Nitrates is zero. With my low fish load. it's to be expected.
> Lots of people run a very low fish load planted tank. You can't dose
> Nitrates. Can you? Nitrates are generated by bacteria breaking
> down.....forms of organic waste.
> GH is 7d(125ppm) a little on the soft side.
> PO4 is very high.... that's what I am concerned with
> CO2 by calculation is about 8ppm. Not too bad right?.... a little low
> (K) Potassium.... I have no idea.
>

Hey spiral, just a quick note a fellow aquarist who had a similar
problem... Tom's is the way go to.
I've been down the limiting ferts route, especially phosphates, and it
never really worked and if it did work the plants didn't do well. Now I
actually still have little visable traces of algae around in my tank, so I
know I'm not clean and it could grow, but it just doesn't. It still took
me a little tweaking of using lots of fert and CO2 to get it working. I
have a larger than usual for a fully planted tank (at least compaired to
the pics you see on the web) so I personally use less NO3 and I vacuum my
gravel whenever I move plants from that spot. The nice thing is while you
are working on getting the balance right, even if you have algae at least
your plants are going gangbusters and that's encouraging.... that PO4 will
probably get sucked up by the plants (it's just amazing) and just disappear
unless you got a real hard PO4 source in your gravel.

I'll let Tom do the work and give you the details but I'll tell you right
now that CO2 is way way low. I'm around upper 20s to 30ppm CO2. There's a
note on most charts saying above 20 is bad but I haven't seen a hint of a
problem.

Luck, don't give up ;)
Pete.

PS. if that banana plant is anything like mine, once you get your tank
really running it will take over. It turned into one of those giant ferns
people use in the corned of their office.. it's massive.

[spiral_72]

Um, I didn't know plants could use KNO3 for nitrate. Duh...... I've
just made a note of that.
Well Tom. It looks like you might be "the man" and I need to get the
CO2 Bomb running or a yeast-CO2 generator for temporary. Looks lke I
need to dose some for of nitrates too. I figure theoretically I COULD
add lots of fish for the nitrate, I think I'll do the dosing for right
now.

Man, the fish are easy to keep compared to these plants! On the other
hand, what am I doing? I saw a place on the net selling BGA. Imagine
that! I could have a regular farm here.
Thanks for all the help, really.
my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[steve]

spiral_72 wrote:
> Um, I didn't know plants could use KNO3 for nitrate. Duh...... I've
> just made a note of that.
> Well Tom. It looks like you might be "the man" and I need to get the
> CO2 Bomb running or a yeast-CO2 generator for temporary. Looks lke I
> need to dose some for of nitrates too. I figure theoretically I COULD
> add lots of fish for the nitrate, I think I'll do the dosing for
right
> now.


Well Spiral, Let me tell you a little story about a boy and his fish.
You see, in the beginning, there was a boy who wanted to keep fish in a
square tank made of glass. He kept fish in the water, everyone was
happy. Some fish lived longer than others, some were lucky enough to
die of old age instead of cats, broken heaters, broken tanks, chlorine
poisining and other man made ailments.

Then one day the man realized he wasn't a boy any longer, yet he still
wanted to keep fish in glass tanks, but he had alot more money and he
could keep more fish in more water. These fish too, like their
ancestors, lived pretty much happy lives and some lived a long time.

Now the man, wanting to broaden his horizon and venture into new
aquatic worlds, tried keeping plants alive under water. "Heck, dahlias
are easy enough to grow outdoors in a totally uncontrolled environment,
it should be easy to keep aquatic weeds in water!"

http://Aquaria.Info/members/ervis/

The above site doesn't go into much detail on the real learning
adventure involved. Tom helped me a great deal. He also led me down
the primrose path to madness at the same time. :) I was about where
you are at now, when I started dumping in the ferts. Holy crap! Can
you ever grow algae with lots of light and nutrients! What I was
lacking was enough plants, lots of plants. Thick healthy plants. Only
when I'd covered the bottom of my tank with plants and plant bunches
did I see the algae finally take a backseat.

>From what you've learned so far, you're on the right track. Here's
what I learned in short form.

Kill BGA with a blackout.
Dose KNO3 using the fert calculator on chucks aquarium pages.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/46g.htm
Measure your Nitrates and Phosphate if you have those kits, and dose
accordingly.
With your zillion watt lights, you're going to have to have additional
C02. If you aren't adding any artifically, then your level is between
2 and 3 ppm. See the C02 calculator chart on Chucks Aquarium pages.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/46g.htm
With C02, measurable levels of NPK in the ratio of 8:1:16, you'll be
amazed at how fast the plants grow and even more amazed to see the
remaining algae just sit there, sad, uneven to spread beyond the little
rock you've left it on.

steve

[spiral_72]

My LFS guy said to use Sierra (SP?)flakes instead of TetraMin and
discontinue my sinking pellets for the Corys. He thinks the TetraMin
flakes are high in animal content and my little fish can't do anything
with the sinking pellets, thus they just dissolve into the gravel. I
thought that's what they were supposed to do actually. I thought the
cats picked up all the little pieces, but apparently not. With all that
stuff decaying, that would account for some of the phosphate. I just
can't believe I don't vacuum enough if that is the case. Any thoughts
on this?
I am trying to find a local supplier or KNO3 too.

Oh, Steve. Ya gotta pretty nice tank! Nice job.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Elaine T]

spiral_72 wrote:
> My LFS guy said to use Sierra (SP?)flakes instead of TetraMin and
> discontinue my sinking pellets for the Corys. He thinks the TetraMin
> flakes are high in animal content and my little fish can't do anything
> with the sinking pellets, thus they just dissolve into the gravel. I
> thought that's what they were supposed to do actually. I thought the
> cats picked up all the little pieces, but apparently not. With all that
> stuff decaying, that would account for some of the phosphate. I just
> can't believe I don't vacuum enough if that is the case. Any thoughts
> on this?
> I am trying to find a local supplier or KNO3 too.
>
> Oh, Steve. Ya gotta pretty nice tank! Nice job.
>
> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>
I've never heard of that brand of fish food. I've always had fish do
well on TetraMin but if you want to change foods, how about one of the
Hagen NutraFin series? They're formulated to be low in phosphate.

As for sinking pellets, Hikari makes a sinking wafer that doesn't
dissolve into mush in the gravel the way the Tetra one does.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[spiral_72]

I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
something like this:
Store: Hello?
Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
Store:
Store:
Me: Hello?
Store: Um
Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
Store: Um, I dunno.
Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. <click>

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[steve]

spiral_72 wrote:
> I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
> something like this:

Try calling garden shops, nursury's or hydroponic stores. Also, some
old fashioned hardware stores, maybe Ace hardware, will carry stump
remover. A few brands of stump remover are pure Potassium Nitrate.

steve

Or, if you can wait, order from Greg Watson dot com.

[Nikki Casali]

spiral_72 wrote:

> I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
> something like this:
> Store: Hello?
> Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
> Store:
> Store:
> Me: Hello?
> Store: Um
> Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
> Store: Um, I dunno.
> Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. <click>

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nitrate.htm

[Elaine T]

spiral_72 wrote:
> I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
> something like this:
> Store: Hello?
> Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
> Store:
> Store:
> Me: Hello?
> Store: Um
> Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
> Store: Um, I dunno.
> Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. <click>
>
> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>
Oh, geez. LOL! KNO3 is a bomb and gunpowder ingredient! Not as bad as
ammonium nitrate, but could still give people pause.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Bill]

Elaine T > Spaketh Thusly:

>spiral_72 wrote:
>> I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
>> something like this:
>> Store: Hello?
>> Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
>> Store:
>> Store:
>> Me: Hello?
>> Store: Um
>> Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
>> Store: Um, I dunno.
>> Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. <click>
>>
>> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
>> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>>
>Oh, geez. LOL! KNO3 is a bomb and gunpowder ingredient! Not as bad as
>ammonium nitrate, but could still give people pause.
It's also the only ingredient in Green Light brand stump remover. Usually can
be found at Ace hardware or Walmart. I got a lifetime supply (1 lb.) for 5.49
a few years ago.

Mix it 50/50 with sugar and it burns real nice, in case you want to get rid of
that stump real fast :-)

--
Bill H. [my "reply to" address is real]
www.necka.net
Molon Labe!

[spiral_72]

Yup, I got some after work. Finally! The hardware store had some made
of Sodium sulphide (Na2So3) I think..... So, against my principles I
went to the Lowes..... They had the Green Light brand that said it
contained potassium nitrate. I had them pull an MSDS on it just to be
sure. It is supposedly 100%
I tried the stuff in my 16oz jar with water and sure enough.....
Nitrates out the roof!. I put about 1/3 tablespoon in my aquarium
filter. I'll check it out again tonight.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
spiral_72 > wrote:
>I seem to be having a tough time finding local KNO3. It usually goes
>something like this:
>Store: Hello?
>Me: Yea, I have a real quick question, do you sell potassium nitrate?
>Store:
>Store:
>Me: Hello?
>Store: Um
>Me: Y'know? It's used in plant fertilization.
>Store: Um, I dunno.
>Me: Ok, I guess not. Thank-you. <click>

I tried to get some in town last xmas. I went to every pharmacy in town;
when I was a kid and had the money I'd buy some mix it with icing sgar
and make ersatz fireworks. Used to be able to find it anywhere.

Now, NOBODY has it; some places would order it for me if I filled
in a form and it was really expensive. REALLY expensive.

The last guy I went to told me they use it to make crystal meth. OH.

So I went to the local hydroponics shop. You know, the places that
try to look like you'd actually buy $3500 worth of gear to grow ****ing
peppers and basil. Har.

$4 a pound. Bingo.

Letme ask you this. If you were going to buy some to make crytstal meth
and your choices were to fill out a form and pay $4.75 for 4 ounces or
would you go to the store where people buy stuff to grow dope where it's
cheaper and unrestricted?


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[spiral_72]

Nah, I'll bet it has nothing to do with drugs. That's an excuse. You
can always find a way to get high. The guys in my school sniffed
glue.... There were a few that got a momentary high off compressed air.
I'd rather not go into any details how. I'll bet the govt. is more
concerned with the potential of making an explosive.
You can make an explosive (to some extent) with potassium nitrate. It's
rediculous to have to sign for a stinking chemical, it's being done.
Most likely, chemicals will be controlled by the government altogether
in the name of terrorism or some similar rediculous excuse. Next they
will ban testicles altogether.

Um, my algae condition has not improved. I am going to give it a bit
before I change anything more. I expect it would be foolish to add more
plants if the plants I have are running idle. As soon as I find out
what causes my current plants to grow I will add more, which should
take care of the algae problem, right?
There, now I'm following the original post. Right?

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Richard Sexton]

The last resort method (and it is a last resort) of killing
any procaryotic algae (blue green, BBA, staghorn) is to dump
1cc/gallon of hydrogen peroxide in 2 days in a row. On the thid
day it should all be dead. This makes a real mess of your tank chemistry
and beneficial bacteria, but these algae are very sensitive
to the stuff and it hasfor me killed themdead each time.

The problem is though if your tank not inbalance nutrient wise
any single spore not kiled will makeit come back.

I find this easier than physically cleaning it out.

Change LOTS of watr after this. Siphon out all the dead algae
or you'll get an ammonia spike and get - algae.

Also I've read it takes alll the iron out of your water
so change as much as you casn and dose with ferts to feed
the plants.

This doesn't seem to do much if anythung for green/eucaryotic algae;
and I'm guessing that's because they have peroxisomes.

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[Pete]

"spiral_72" > wrote in news:1109257838.263647.17370
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Yup, I got some after work. Finally! The hardware store had some made
> of Sodium sulphide (Na2So3) I think..... So, against my principles I
> went to the Lowes..... They had the Green Light brand that said it
> contained potassium nitrate. I had them pull an MSDS on it just to be
> sure. It is supposedly 100%
> I tried the stuff in my 16oz jar with water and sure enough.....
> Nitrates out the roof!. I put about 1/3 tablespoon in my aquarium
> filter. I'll check it out again tonight.
>

WHOA NELLY!!.
Unless I'm way off here, I think you just dosed your tank to about 20ppm of
Nitrates when you're aiming for around 5ppm. You can use this site for
calculations
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

BTW how is your CO2 levels now, did you jack them up? All the ferts won't
help if you don't get that CO2 to at least 20ish. Treat CO2 just like a
fert, if one thing is missing you won't get stellar growth. FYI any surface
agitation (due to filter output or air bubbler etc.) will lower your CO2
levels. The first indication of something happening (before any algae
changes or plant growth) should be your plants pearling late in the day.

Luck
Pete.

[Robert Flory]

"spiral_72" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yup, I got some after work. Finally! The hardware store had some made
> of Sodium sulphide (Na2So3) I think..... So, against my principles I
> went to the Lowes..... They had the Green Light brand that said it
> contained potassium nitrate. I had them pull an MSDS on it just to be
> sure. It is supposedly 100%
> I tried the stuff in my 16oz jar with water and sure enough.....
> Nitrates out the roof!. I put about 1/3 tablespoon in my aquarium
> filter. I'll check it out again tonight.

Grants Stump remover work for me. I think it is available in many areas in
the USA.
Got mine at Yard Birds.

Try mixing it with diesel .....it and ammonium nitrate with diesel make a
good explosive too ;-) They use it in the open pit mines to shatter the
coal so it can be scooped up and loaded.
Bob

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Pete > wrote:
>"spiral_72" > wrote in news:1109257838.263647.17370
:
>
>> Yup, I got some after work. Finally! The hardware store had some made
>> of Sodium sulphide (Na2So3) I think..... So, against my principles I
>> went to the Lowes..... They had the Green Light brand that said it
>> contained potassium nitrate. I had them pull an MSDS on it just to be
>> sure. It is supposedly 100%
>> I tried the stuff in my 16oz jar with water and sure enough.....
>> Nitrates out the roof!. I put about 1/3 tablespoon in my aquarium
>> filter. I'll check it out again tonight.
>>
>
>WHOA NELLY!!.
>Unless I'm way off here, I think you just dosed your tank to about 20ppm of
>Nitrates when you're aiming for around 5ppm. You can use this site for
>calculations
>http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm

So? I aim for 20-30 ppm and don't use CO2. I slipped a digit once and had
200 pm for a month. No shrimp, plant, fish or snail was adversely affected.

Nitrates don't kill fish, poeple kill fish.

--
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[Richard Sexton]

>Try mixing it with diesel .....it and ammonium nitrate with diesel make a
>good explosive too ;-) They use it in the open pit mines to shatter the
>coal so it can be scooped up and loaded.

IIRC, Ammonium nitrate and diesel is the most powerful non-nuclear explosive
thee is. It's how they dug the Panama canal. Something like 5 bags of
ammonium nitrate and 5 gallons of diesel leaves a half mile wide crater.

*BRING*

"Hello?"

"Uh, yeah..."

It's the NSA. It's for you.

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1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Pete]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in :


>>
>>WHOA NELLY!!.
>>Unless I'm way off here, I think you just dosed your tank to about
>>20ppm of Nitrates when you're aiming for around 5ppm. You can use this
>>site for calculations
>>http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm
>
> So? I aim for 20-30 ppm and don't use CO2. I slipped a digit once and
> had 200 pm for a month. No shrimp, plant, fish or snail was adversely
> affected.
>
> Nitrates don't kill fish, poeple kill fish.
>

Never said it killed fish. Was really more a comment on a large initial
does for a tank in problems with new ferts and while trying to balance it
out.

I've done the same thing with phosphates, but then my tank was plant loaded
already and didn't have any algae problems. Don't want him to find his
algae problem growing worse and then giving up on the fert idea.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Pete > wrote:
(Richard Sexton) wrote in :
>
>
>>>
>>>WHOA NELLY!!.
>>>Unless I'm way off here, I think you just dosed your tank to about
>>>20ppm of Nitrates when you're aiming for around 5ppm. You can use this
>>>site for calculations
>>>http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm
>>
>> So? I aim for 20-30 ppm and don't use CO2. I slipped a digit once and
>> had 200 pm for a month. No shrimp, plant, fish or snail was adversely
>> affected.
>>
>> Nitrates don't kill fish, poeple kill fish.
>>
>
>Never said it killed fish. Was really more a comment on a large initial
>does for a tank in problems with new ferts and while trying to balance it
>out.

Fair enough, bit too low of a nitrate level will cause algae too, specifically
blue green algae.

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[Pete]

(Richard Sexton) wrote in :

> In article >,
> Pete > wrote:
(Richard Sexton) wrote in :
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>WHOA NELLY!!.
>>>>Unless I'm way off here, I think you just dosed your tank to about
>>>>20ppm of Nitrates when you're aiming for around 5ppm. You can use
>>>>this site for calculations
>>>>http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm
>>>
>>> So? I aim for 20-30 ppm and don't use CO2. I slipped a digit once
>>> and had 200 pm for a month. No shrimp, plant, fish or snail was
>>> adversely affected.
>>>
>>> Nitrates don't kill fish, poeple kill fish.
>>>
>>
>>Never said it killed fish. Was really more a comment on a large
>>initial does for a tank in problems with new ferts and while trying to
>>balance it out.
>
> Fair enough, bit too low of a nitrate level will cause algae too,
> specifically blue green algae.
>

Yeah, I had it higher myself before, but tried moving to lower levels as I
have a med-high fish load and wanted to make sure the NH4 (a real algae
booster) is also being used up and it seemed to work well. All a process
of trying certain levels and observing the reactions.

Pete.

[[email protected]]

> Um, my algae condition has not improved. I am going to give it a bit
> before I change anything more. I expect it would be foolish to add
more
> plants if the plants I have are running idle. As soon as I find out
> what causes my current plants to grow I will add more, which should
> take care of the algae problem, right?
> There, now I'm following the original post. Right?
> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

Try doing a 3 day blackout, that will kill the BGA as will antibiotics.

But if you want prevention and removal over the long term, address the
plant's needs.

Remove as much BGA as you can. Clean filter, prune any thing overgrown
that's draping across the surface of the water.
Do 50% water change, add KNO3 at 1/4 teaspoon per 25 gal of tank.
Wait 3 days, turn off CO2, cover with trashbags, (2 so that no light at
all gets in), remove after 3 days, add the same amount of KNO3 back,
hook up CO2, make sure you have enough CO2, then add that much KNO3
2-3x a week there after and do good sized water changes(say 50%)
weekly.

Your plants will grow if you give them what they need, K+, NO3, CO2,
light, traces, GH, and PO4 etc.

This will prevent any algae, not just BGA, from infecting your tank in
the future for many years.

When you neglect the tank and the plant's needs, the plants slow down
their growth and then if severe enough, the algae appear.

So always focus on the plant's needs, then you have no algae issues to
speak of.

This concept is both simple and effective.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[spiral_72]

I added 1/2 a teaspoon about 4 days ago without much (if any) change in
nitrates. Last night after my tank maintenance I added another 1/2
teaspoon. Wednesday and Saturday I cleaned very, very well with the
gravel vac. About 30% water each time. I don't think the phosphate
levels have changed much but my nitrates have increased slightly. Next
weekend it's time for another round of substrate fertilizer.

I'm not real sure the algae is growing any slower. Maybe a little.

Tom, I've noted your proceedure. Currently I don't have a way to add
CO2. I will work on that this week if possible. I am considering
setting up a yeast reactor for now..... Never did that un' before.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

Blackout works on non CO2 tanks, but you still need to address the
plant's need and have enough plant density. Growrh rate is slower but
is still there.
Cut the KNO3 down afterward and feed your fish more.

Add SeaChem Equilibrium and stop doing water changes.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[[email protected]]

Add about 1/4 teaspoon of the SeaChem EQ once every 1-2 weeks per 25
gal.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Add about 1/4 teaspoon of the SeaChem EQ once every 1-2 weeks per 25
> gal.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
>
I see that it's mostly plant nutrients, but where does all the calcium
go if you're not doing water changes?

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[[email protected]]

the only thing I never understood is if it's a problem with low
nitrates why change the water then?

if you're getting rid of spores, that's futile because of the high
turnover of the bacteria anyway.

as i understand it old water=more nitrates, as long as you feed the
fish more, and got a well-cycled tank to convert ammonia.

been dealing with this problem, the whole time with my 4 year old
planted. the funny thing is when I stopped changing water as
frequently, the bga change from the dense black mat, to a more
manageable brown scum (still smells the same with that swampy odor), it
never goes away completely with maramycin.

realistically, your goal has to be to achieve some acceptable balance
with removeable or mimimal amounts. the high phos that drives it is
largely from the tap water anyway (if you do frequent changes), so the
only way to get low phos without using chems is to move to a different
town.

you just got to work with the cards you've been dealt.

______
http://www.indiecookbooks.com
nothing but reviews of independent cookbooks from churches, community
groups, and self-published authors.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
> wrote:
>the only thing I never understood is if it's a problem with low
>nitrates why change the water then?

I've never seen BGA in newly setup tanks even with plants moved to
it that are BGA infected. I'm wondering if it's a buildup or
something like organics that is a prerequisite.


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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> In article . com>,
> > wrote:
>
>>the only thing I never understood is if it's a problem with low
>>nitrates why change the water then?
>
>
> I've never seen BGA in newly setup tanks even with plants moved to
> it that are BGA infected. I'm wondering if it's a buildup or
> something like organics that is a prerequisite.
>
>
Pasteur Institute's defined Cyanobacter culture medium used for
freshwater, soil, and thermal strains.

g/l mM
NaNO3 1.5 17.65
(replaced with 10 mM NaHCO3 for nitrogen-fixing strains)
K2HPO4.3H20 0.04 0.18
MgSO4.7H2O 0.075 0.30
CaCl2.2H2O 0.036 0.25
Citric acid 0.006 0.03
Ferric ammonium citrate 0.006 0.03
EDTA (disodium magnesium) 0.001 0.003
Na2CO3 0.02 0.19

Trace metal mix A5+Co 1 ml
Deionized water to 1 l
pH after autoclaving and cooling: 7.4

Trace metals A5+Co
Ingredient g/l
H3BO3 2.86
MnCl2.4H2O 1.81
ZnSO4.7H2O 0.222
Na2MoO4.2H2O 0.390
CuSO4.5H2O 0.079
Co(NO3)2.6H2O 0.049

See anything that could build up over time? I think maybe it's the
phosphate, since that's at 40 ppm. New tanks don't usually have that
generous an amount of phosphate. Of course, a defined medium at a
culture collection is designed to support long-term growth so that much
phosphate probably isn't necessary in the short term.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[spiral_72]

I'm not real sure what I have learned from this whole BGA thing. I have
learned many things it is NOT.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

Plant tissue.

Over a 3-9 month peroid, large amounts of cuttings are removed from the
tank.

Just like a CO2 enriched tank, except slower...........hence smaller
amounts dosed less frequently.
Higher Ca is less of an issue, K+ also helps and can become limiting,
we can add CaCO3 etc for Ca and KH to the gravel(eg Onyx sand).

The two box model:
Nutrients (Fish food, organic or inorganic KNO3 etc) in = plant
biomass/filter cleaning out.

As more nutrients are needed to maintain growth rates with CO2 and more
light, the bacteria can not process and break down the organic nutrient
waste fast enough and build up occurs.
Then you get algae.

So we add inorganic nutrients like KNO3 and other inorganic readily
bioavailable nutrients.
While slower growth rates in non CO2 tanks are slow enough to supply
many plants, fish food is hardly balanced for plant health and needs in
many species. It'll do okay, but a few small dosing changes will
greatly improve a non CO2 tank.

Adding SeaChem Equilbrium of a mix of MgSO4/CaCl2/K2SO4 etc and some
traces can help if added 1-2x a week at small amounts.

Try it and see. It takes more time than CO2 enriched tanks to see it,
but it will help and you should be able to see an improvement soon.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[spiral_72]

Thanks, there are too many variables. I am afraid to add nutrients at
random but there is no way I can determine what the exact levels are
for each nutrient. Even if I could, it'd be a full time job monitoring
the stuff. I understand why dosing nitrates is required. I just don't
feel like a chemistry lesson right now and would just like to enjoy the
fish :) Takes work though, eh?

I am going to get the exact fertilizer you recommended if I can find
it. If not I'll make some kind of educated(?) desicion based on the
compounds you give me. I assume that is a liquid, right?

Something else I just realized too. My Amazon Swords began developing
yellow/brown areas on many of the leaves and quit growing just about
the time the BGA started taking over. I guess that should have been an
indicator. I'll google those symptoms and see what I find.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Richard Sexton]

>Something else I just realized too. My Amazon Swords began developing
>yellow/brown areas on many of the leaves and quit growing just about
>the time the BGA started taking over. I guess that should have been an
>indicator. I'll google those symptoms and see what I find.

So right away you knoe something is wrong with their nutrients.

Ironically crpts can do really well in a tank full of BGA. I've
never figured that out. By really well I mean bigger longer leaves than
when it's cleared up.

--
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[spiral_72]

Yea, my banana plant is growing out the top of the tank! I actually
think it's growing faster than the algae. Everything else is doing
pretty poor though.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

Actually no, it's rather easy to determine the nutrient levels and
maintain them in one simple step.

No chem lesson at all, you can make cereal right?
Add enough cereal to fill the bowl, add 2 cups of milk, 2 teaspoons of
sugar etc.

Or I can say add 250 grams of endospermous carbohydrates and 9.5 grams
of sucrose to 450mls of bovine protein mammary milk.

In a nut shell, you do large weekly water changes(say 50%) each week to
prevent anything from building up and and dose 2-4x a week to prevent
anything from running out.
the names can be whatever you want them to be, but ultimately all you
are doing is adding Nitrate, PO4 , K+ (the NPK numbers of bags of
fertilizer) and traces.

Farmer do this without chem lessons all the time.

In this manner you provide a stable range of all the nutrients cheaply,
easily and without using a test kit except for CO2(KH/pH).

An example routine for a 20 gal tank with high light:

50% water change

Add: 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3
1/16 or a smidge of KH2PO4
If GH is lower than 3-5 out of the tap, Add SeaChem Equlibrium(1/4
teaspoon)

Next day add 5 ml of trace

wait one day, add the KNO3/KH2PO4 again, next day add the trace again

Add the KNO3/KH2PO4
Trace again the next day

Water change: repeat ad nauseum.

Dosing 1/4 teaspoon of powered KNO3 = 1.67 grams according to a lab
scale with 10 levels averages.

This added to 20 gal= 10-11ppm of NO3. Error is about 1ppm of NO3.

Name one hobby kit that can be that accurate?

We dose excess nutrients in all cases, nothign wrong with that as long
as we don't get too far off base and the water changes prevent folks
from lousing it up.

You can guessimate and use the plants as the indicator as you become
more skilled and dose less or go longer without water changes.

Again, no test kit is needed.

As long as you keep up on dosing and water changes, this is a very
simple method and no hassle if you put an automatic water changer on
your tank, python style water changer etc or hard plumb a drain/refill.

KH2PO4, KNO3 are very cheap, SeaChem Eq is relatively cheap as well for
the once a week dosing. Traces are not too bad at this amount.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>Something else I just realized too. My Amazon Swords began developing
>>yellow/brown areas on many of the leaves and quit growing just about
>>the time the BGA started taking over. I guess that should have been an
>>indicator. I'll google those symptoms and see what I find.
>
>
> So right away you knoe something is wrong with their nutrients.
>
> Ironically crpts can do really well in a tank full of BGA. I've
> never figured that out. By really well I mean bigger longer leaves than
> when it's cleared up.
>
BGA is fixes nitrogen so I assume your BGA tank is low on NO3. In a
tank full of BGA, individual BGA cells would be continually dying and
falling to the substrate. Perhaps the crypts find dead BGA a better
nitrogen source than NO3 in the water column.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard Sexton]

>>>Something else I just realized too. My Amazon Swords began developing
>>>yellow/brown areas on many of the leaves and quit growing just about

I looked this up in the Dupla book under plant diagnosis and
it said "nutrient problem. change lost of water and add nutrients".

>> Ironically crpts can do really well in a tank full of BGA. I've
>> never figured that out. By really well I mean bigger longer leaves than
>> when it's cleared up.
>>
>BGA is fixes nitrogen so I assume your BGA tank is low on NO3. In a
>tank full of BGA, individual BGA cells would be continually dying and
>falling to the substrate. Perhaps the crypts find dead BGA a better
>nitrogen source than NO3 in the water column.

Perhaps. Is it jus tme or does BGA sort of reek of ammonia? Crypts
just love amonia. Also, a shaded crypt is a big crypt, and the
mass of stem pants covering the surface blocking the light
causes the crypts underneath to try harder to reach out for light.

I think this also explains why crypts are bigger in large tanks;
less light down at the substrate than with a small tank with
the same light.


--
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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>>Something else I just realized too. My Amazon Swords began developing
>>>>yellow/brown areas on many of the leaves and quit growing just about
>
>
> I looked this up in the Dupla book under plant diagnosis and
> it said "nutrient problem. change lost of water and add nutrients".
>
>
>>>Ironically crpts can do really well in a tank full of BGA. I've
>>>never figured that out. By really well I mean bigger longer leaves than
>>>when it's cleared up.
>>>
>>
>>BGA is fixes nitrogen so I assume your BGA tank is low on NO3. In a
>>tank full of BGA, individual BGA cells would be continually dying and
>>falling to the substrate. Perhaps the crypts find dead BGA a better
>>nitrogen source than NO3 in the water column.
>
>
> Perhaps. Is it jus tme or does BGA sort of reek of ammonia? Crypts
> just love amonia. Also, a shaded crypt is a big crypt, and the
> mass of stem pants covering the surface blocking the light
> causes the crypts underneath to try harder to reach out for light.
>
> I think this also explains why crypts are bigger in large tanks;
> less light down at the substrate than with a small tank with
> the same light.
>
>
BGA reeks alright. It usually smells fishy to me. It's the smell I
associate with high nitrites or a dead fish in the tank, and usually
sends me scrambling for my nitrite test kit...which always tests 0.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[spiral_72]

Tom,

You're my hero.

I've copied and pasted you post to my "stuff" folder. I got paid today
so I am gonna visit the LFS for SeaChem or something like it. I have
been slowly aquiring a list of aquarium chemicals. I'll try to add
KH2PO4 to the inventory.

Algae growth is about half what I started. I know I am getting
somewhere..... slowly.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

www.gregwatson.com has all the raw ferts you need.

Just do niot let the names freak you out.
You are not going into an area iof tech plant keeping here, it's quite
simple and easy.
If you want, later if you are curious and cannot stand it, you can
learn chem and plant physiology.

I was anti chem initially myself.
So you might change.

I test a lot, but it's to answer specific questions and so I do not
have continue testing.....
There is an end to that.

Once you get a good feel, you can change the routine and reduce water
changes, ferts etc little by little and see what routine gives you the
results you desire.

Watch the plants, see what they do.

I think once you start on this, you can always go back and use this as
a default if you get in trouble.
Or just use it and not mess with it.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Get connected
www.BarrReport.com Get the information

[spiral_72]

Thanks for the link. I am going to use off the shelf fertilizers for
right now. I gotta get this thing under control and there's no need to
start taking more risks than necessary.

I am dosing KNO3 to keep my nitrates at 7-10ppm

I've run several doses of Epsom salts because I had it and it was an
ingredient in PMDD

I have started using a leaf fertilizer that had the stuff you
recommended plus more. It also specifically mentioned there were NO
nitrates or phosphates in the mixture.

I am continuing a Serra substrate fertilizer at 3 tablets per month
near the roots of plants.... quality stuff!.

I have just begun a DIY CO2 bomb...... It will have been running for 3
days tonight.

I am still running 25% water changes once a week with a modified
vacuuming proceedure.... very light gravel disruption (like the tope
1/4")

BGA growth has decreased very little. Last week something wierd
happened. 3 days after my water change there was little BGA growth. I
thought I had the stuff licked. That night when I got home from work
there had been an BGA explosion. Green stuff everywhere. I changed
water one day early last week.

Results:
My banana plants are growing like crazy. Multiple new leaves and 5
shoots. Java ferns are stable with no growth. Amazon swords are
suffering slowly. There are a few new but withered leaves while others
are spotted with brown/yellow areas but very green overall. I planted
some other stuff that looks similar to Hornwort but nicer. It seems to
be stable, no growth. There does not seem to be any other forms of
algae or fungus in the tank..... The fish seem unaffected by the whole
thing. My Corys have spawned several times. The CO2 is my last resort
other than medication...... Just waiting


my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Richard Sexton]

>BGA growth has decreased very little. Last week something wierd
>happened. 3 days after my water change there was little BGA growth. I
>thought I had the stuff licked. That night when I got home from work
>there had been an BGA explosion. Green stuff everywhere. I changed
>water one day early last week.

I keep suggesting massive daily water changes but never hear
how that's worked or not worked for you.

The first step to get rid of this crap is to get the tank
very clean. I siphon out all waste, gravel vac then diatom
the tank - and change lots of water. Lots and lots.

My well water here is apparantly the perfect growth medium
for staghorn which is tengentially related to BBA. Every other
algae I can lick but this one is a problem for me. I've
had to resort to chemical means to eradicate it complete
and have found peroxide can be made to work with some difficulty
and Aquarium Pharmecuticals Algae Fix kills it dead overnight
much more safely (albit it kills all invertenrates). Copper
sulphate will do the same.



--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[spiral_72]

Hey, I apologize..... There have been so many suggestions that I want
to carry out each methodically. I really appreciate all the feedback
but it's hard to use it all.... I don't want to change 100% water, add
1/2 pound of nitrates, washdown my gravel, pump CO2, ect. ect. ect. all
at the same time. I wouldn't know what worked. Y'know? I have even
tried H2O2 in my small tank (it has a touch of BGA nothing like this
though).

I definitely will try to change the water much more frequently. I don't
know how long I will have to do that..... I can't promise to do it
everyday but I should certainly be able to do it every other day.

One thing I forgot to mention is I cut the light quantity in half....
same duration (12hours). Not really any change though.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[spiral_72]

I run almost a 50% water change last night. I added a little KNO3 to
keep the nitrates up to 10ppm. I am going to dose fertilizer tonight.
(it got tool late last night). Still pumping CO2. pH dropped to 7.1

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

Doesn't matter what environmental changes you make, you will still need
to kill what's there.
a series of water changes can likely succeed, so can the blackout I
suggest which addresses the plant's needs with the KNO3, CO2 etc.
Carbon from the CO2 is 40%+ of the dry weight of the plants.
K and N from NO3 are a good lion's share of the rest.

Blackout is simple and takes 3 days, BGa will come back if you do not
add the KNO3.
KNO3 you can get at home dept for 5$ for a year's supply. Most folks
have a 1/4 teaspoon.

Pretty simple.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[spiral_72]

I run about a 50% water change two days ago (I wasn't able to last
night) but when got home yesterday the tank was perfectly clear. No,
really. No bga at all. No traces, no dead bga. None. Yea I vacuumed as
much bga as I could but I didn't get it all. All the plants are a
brilliant green. I don't understand. It's just gone!

Time will tell I guess. I am gonna run another water change tonight. I
am scared of changing too much water just because my tap is 7.6pH. The
water in my tank is (now) 7.1 with the CO2.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[spiral_72]

Yup, I've got the KNO3. Been dosing to keep nitrates at 10ppm

Oh, yea. A phosphate test showed levels off the scale immediately after
the 50% water change. I don't understand that. I can only assume the
test is accurate. It reads 0-0.25ppm for my tap water.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

Just make sure you add plenty of KNO3 and KH2PO4.

Keep up on it and keep things clean and you'll be alright.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[spiral_72]

No BGA as of last night. pH=7.1 NO3=10ppm PO4=off the scale

I changed about 30% water while vacuuming, and installed a phosphate
sponge I just bought. The vacuum really didn't pull much out of the
gravel. The phosphate spong is supposed to remove 20mg/L in 30gallons
of water. According to my calculations that'd be 10.9mg/L assuming I
have 55gallons of water in my 55 gallon aquarium (which I probably
don't). The directions say "if the phosphate levels ain't 0.02mg/L or
less after 4 days, change the sponge for a fresh one"

I must say I have learned much during this experience. Thanks Tom.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html