CO2 or not

[Gill Passman]

My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. But
from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep the
front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
What do you all think????

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. But
> from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
> The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep the
> front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> What do you all think????

Well you could make up a one bottle DIY CO2 and see how it goes.

There are lots of articles on the web about how to do it.

If it doesn't work then you can yank it later. You don't say how big the
tank is - of course over 100L you'll need more than one bottle to get the
CO2 levels up.

All the best,

Oz
>
>

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
> But
> from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
> not.
> The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
> the
> front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> What do you all think????


CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of
the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory
of what you will be doing).

The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until
the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2
pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun
to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its own
eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are
also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats...
etc etc.

The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters. If
your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
slow it's global warming ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. But
> from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
> The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep the
> front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> What do you all think????
>
>
LFS wants to make some money.

I agree that algae is generally harmless, but a tank certainly looks
nicer with the plants free of algae. Any idea how much nitrate is in
your water? You could try feeding less and changing more water to lower
nitrates (if your tapwater has low nitrate).

Also a lot of us are getting good algae control with a plant supplement
called Seachem Flourish Excel. It adds carbon for the plants and seems
to inhibit algae growth at the same time.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...

> CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a steady
> and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of the water
> and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory of what you
> will be doing).

I can vouch for this theory working for real ;)

I did my weekly maintainence today, including a cleaning of all the heaters,
impellers, filter casings, tubes and glass and the algae reduction was
impressive! The plants are fed, macro nutrients via slow release, in the
substrate, and micro nutrients weekly with the water change via liquid in
the water column.

I expected a real green attack, or worse green water, when I started doing
this two weeks ago, but the results are just outstanding - the tank seems to
have stabalised and every single plant pearls every day, and a couple of
them (Asian Ambula and Hygrophilia polysperma) grow at least 1cm per day.
All new growth is abundant and green. My Blue Stricta "forrest" is really
filling out and all of these plant's new leaves are large and bushy - so
much so, I think I am going to have to prune them - I wouldn't have ventured
to say this when diatoms covered all the leaves a while back and I had to
prune them hard.

Even the plant I've had the least sucess with - Corscrew Val., has shot
runners off from both plants, so if I'm not careful I'm going to have and
abundance of Val. soon ;) This is great stuff!!!

Their recovery is outstanding and I feel it's more tailored to my tank now
and not to some emmersive culturing plant place, where they grow in sunlight
in almost hydroponic solutions. The swords have a great time pecking the new
leaves of anything that grows on them.

You're dead right; it's balancing act, and an understanding of the
relationship of a few things, but once you get a handle on it, apart from
bringing a sense of satisfaction because the tank is doing well, it's
something well worth knowing.

Something interesting has happend to the Banana Lilies though - they have
slowed right down. They used to grow like wild fire and I had to trim their
surface leaves regularly to allow light through to the bottom of the tank.
They now shoot occasionally - perhaps they have run their bananas out of
nutrient? - they did get quite damaged by the diatoms.

They are cheaper than other plants any how, so if they lose it then it's not
really a problem. I've manged to cultivate two smaller plants from them, but
they don't have bananas, just nice white roots ;)

The green algae that was threatening is still there but in much reduced
levels this week, and it's mainly confined to two rocks, where the 4 SAE's,
Mystery Snail and 2 Swords have a little munch when they get on the rocks.

So it appears that all this advice about plants out competing algae is
actually right ;)

I can't tell you how thrilled I am with this lush plant growth and receding
algae. There isn't a ditaom in sight either and it looks as though I may
have hit a balance of flora and fauna for now. Of course one little thing
could change everything, but for now it's all seemingly in a reasonable
balance.

I am not sure that the liquid fertilizer is quite right, so I may hunt
around for one with a different balance of nutrients (less phosphate
(reduced fish feed?) and more iron).

>
> The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
> variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until
> the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran out
> of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2 pushes
> the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun to live
> in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its own
> eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
> single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are
> also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats...
> etc etc.

I have been pondering this single bottle issue and I think I may have a
solution:

Instead of a single 2L bottle - use two 1.25L bottles on a T-Connector. Each
bottle has 1 cup of sugar, 1/2 tsp of yeast and 1/2 tsp of baking soda. The
bottles can be cycled in a smaller tank this way, without huge pH/carbonic
acid swings and you ultimately would have more control over the mixtures and
the CO2 system as a whole.

Oz

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Also a lot of us are getting good algae control with a plant supplement
> called Seachem Flourish Excel. It adds carbon for the plants and seems to
> inhibit algae growth at the same time.

I am possibly going to switch to this next week because I think in
combination with brine shrimp pellets (phosphate) my current stuff may be
causing a bit of algae.

There is more light getting into the tank these days because I've cut all of
the surface leaves off the Banana Lilies, so in combination with higher
nutrient levels in the water column it could be causing an algae outbreak.

I added a lot more plants last week and already they are growing and
pearling like mad. They have grown healthy white roots in less than a week
(from bare stalks) and seem to have the green algae in check.

It's mainly confined to the rocks these days and I reckon it looks good to
have a "mossy rock" or two. Besides, there are creatures in my tank now that
like to nibble on it - namely, the SAE's, Swords and Mystery Snail.

I have a little rock in front of the two larger ones with the algae on them
and this has Java Moss on it and all 3 rocks grouped actually look quite
nice. Hopefully, if the Java Moss keeps growing at the astounding rate it is
I can get it grow over all of the rocks.

As a side note to this algae issue - I also removed that nice piece of
driftwood I had in the back right corner - it was suspicious after all - it
used to slime up really quickly and I am starting to think this is where the
spores from the original green algae attack came from, as it was given to my
by a mate who doesn't take care of his tanks or fish very well, and
certainly wouldn't have prepared the wood properly other than water logging
it. I suspect also it came out of his outside gold fish tank which is in
full sunlight and chocked with green crap. It wouldn't stay down anyway and
it was a hassle having tied to a brick ;)

Oz

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
> > But
> > from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
> > not.
> > The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> > question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> > certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
> > the
> > front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> > They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> > fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> > What do you all think????
>
>
> CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
> steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of
> the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory
> of what you will be doing).
>
> The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
> variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until
> the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
> out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2
> pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun
> to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its own
> eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
> single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are
> also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats...
> etc etc.
>
> The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters. If
> your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
> quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
> slow it's global warming ;~).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low being
just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't know the
other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking in the
kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.

What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget this
part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially as
gardening is my other hobby....

[spiral_72]

Oz, I loathe you and your plants!
You obviously have something going right.

Phooey.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
But
> > from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
not.
> > The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> > question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> > certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep the
> > front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> > They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> > fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> > What do you all think????
> >
> >
> LFS wants to make some money.
>
> I agree that algae is generally harmless, but a tank certainly looks
> nicer with the plants free of algae. Any idea how much nitrate is in
> your water? You could try feeding less and changing more water to lower
> nitrates (if your tapwater has low nitrate).
>
> Also a lot of us are getting good algae control with a plant supplement
> called Seachem Flourish Excel. It adds carbon for the plants and seems
> to inhibit algae growth at the same time.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Nitrate is 5, PH is 7.5....tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons. I'll check out
and see if I can get the supplement you mention locally....

Thanks

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Also a lot of us are getting good algae control with a plant supplement
> > called Seachem Flourish Excel. It adds carbon for the plants and seems
to
> > inhibit algae growth at the same time.
>
> I am possibly going to switch to this next week because I think in
> combination with brine shrimp pellets (phosphate) my current stuff may be
> causing a bit of algae.
>
> There is more light getting into the tank these days because I've cut all
of
> the surface leaves off the Banana Lilies, so in combination with higher
> nutrient levels in the water column it could be causing an algae outbreak.
>
> I added a lot more plants last week and already they are growing and
> pearling like mad. They have grown healthy white roots in less than a week
> (from bare stalks) and seem to have the green algae in check.
>
> It's mainly confined to the rocks these days and I reckon it looks good to
> have a "mossy rock" or two. Besides, there are creatures in my tank now
that
> like to nibble on it - namely, the SAE's, Swords and Mystery Snail.
>
> I have a little rock in front of the two larger ones with the algae on
them
> and this has Java Moss on it and all 3 rocks grouped actually look quite
> nice. Hopefully, if the Java Moss keeps growing at the astounding rate it
is
> I can get it grow over all of the rocks.
>
> As a side note to this algae issue - I also removed that nice piece of
> driftwood I had in the back right corner - it was suspicious after all -
it
> used to slime up really quickly and I am starting to think this is where
the
> spores from the original green algae attack came from, as it was given to
my
> by a mate who doesn't take care of his tanks or fish very well, and
> certainly wouldn't have prepared the wood properly other than water
logging
> it. I suspect also it came out of his outside gold fish tank which is in
> full sunlight and chocked with green crap. It wouldn't stay down anyway
and
> it was a hassle having tied to a brick ;)
>
> Oz
>
>
Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and one
small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing it
all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think giving
the other two bits a good clean up would be?

Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off....

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
>>>But
>>>from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
>>>not.
>>>The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
>>>question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
>>>certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
>>>the
>>>front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
>>>They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
>>>fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
>>>What do you all think????
>>
>>
>>CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
>>steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of
>>the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory
>>of what you will be doing).
>>
>>The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
>>variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until
>>the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
>>out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2
>>pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun
>>to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its own
>>eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
>>single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are
>>also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats...
>>etc etc.
>>
>>The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters. If
>>your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
>>quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
>>slow it's global warming ;~).
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low being
> just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't know the
> other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking in the
> kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.
>
> What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget this
> part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially as
> gardening is my other hobby....
>
>
I'd look at adding K (potash), iron, and possibly trace elements along
with the Flourish Excel. You already have some nitrate in the water,
and probably plenty of phosphate.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >>
> >>>My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
> >>>But
> >>>from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
> >>>not.
> >>>The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> >>>question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> >>>certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
> >>>the
> >>>front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> >>>They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> >>>fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> >>>What do you all think????
> >>
> >>
> >>CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
> >>steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of
> >>the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory
> >>of what you will be doing).
> >>
> >>The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
> >>variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until
> >>the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
> >>out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2
> >>pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun
> >>to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its
own
> >>eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
> >>single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are
> >>also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats...
> >>etc etc.
> >>
> >>The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters. If
> >>your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
> >>quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
> >>slow it's global warming ;~).
> >>--
> >>www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low
being
> > just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't know
the
> > other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking in
the
> > kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.
> >
> > What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget
this
> > part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially as
> > gardening is my other hobby....
> >
> >
> I'd look at adding K (potash), iron, and possibly trace elements along
> with the Flourish Excel. You already have some nitrate in the water,
> and probably plenty of phosphate.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

After reading everyones suggestions I added some Nutrafin Plant Gro
tonight - it came with the tank. I already replaced most of the plants this
weekend so here's hoping. As I think we have all agreed, I don't think the
fish suffer but it isn't pretty to look at. I'll look into sourcing the
Flourish Excel.

Thanks for the advice...I'll keep you posted...

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my
>> > tank.
>> > But
>> > from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
>> > not.
>> > The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
>> > question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel
>> > to a
>> > certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
>> > the
>> > front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
>> > They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
>> > fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
>> > What do you all think????
>>
>>
>> CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
>> steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out
>> of
>> the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the
>> theory
>> of what you will be doing).
>>
>> The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
>> variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works
>> until
>> the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
>> out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food.
>> CO2
>> pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite
>> fun
>> to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its
>> own
>> eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
>> single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants
>> are
>> also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with
>> cats...
>> etc etc.
>>
>> The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters.
>> If
>> your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
>> quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
>> slow it's global warming ;~).
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
> Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low
> being
> just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't
> know the
> other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking
> in the
> kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.
>
> What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget
> this
> part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially
> as
> gardening is my other hobby....


If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something
to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
feed newborn fish :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"spiral_72" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Oz, I loathe you and your plants!
> You obviously have something going right.
>
> Phooey.

I am tempted to LOL! because you have no idea of the "pain" I've been
through to get to this stage. (well perhaps you do)

Honestly, it's been touch and go for a couple of months now, and it's only
this week I feel big enough to tell people about it.

The path to this current success was winding and torturous, but that said, I
read a lot, was patient and took the advice of many people in these groups.

In my case it's apparently working. ymmv.

If I can say anything about it, it is this: I am happy it's all happening at
the moment, but as things use up (nutrients in the gravel etc,) and the
small things go in and out of balance, I can't honestly say I can "brag"
like I have been of late ;)

I am hoping the plants keep it up, and that the CO2 doesn't fail. I am
expecting a massive change in circumstances when I replace the fluoro tubes
in a few months for instance.

I have noticed different growth characteristics from the two tubes I use.
The Philips Aquarelle seems to put out a lot of light in the the red part of
the spectrum, in comparison to the Chinese plant spectrum one I have from
LFS#1 - the result is that while the fish look great, I think it's turning
leaves red. It's hard to say because for so long I went with out
fertilization other than fish food and mulm.

The greatest and most solid advice for plants in my experience seems to be -
right sized particles in the substrate, sufficient light intensity and
period (spectrum and CRI independent), macro fetilization via slow release,
micro fertilization via water column, correct plant selection for the amount
of light and nutrient and the right fish to go with all of this, and of
course a stable, reliable and non-polluting CO2 system.

It all seems daunting when you first hear of it all, but given a little time
for it to sink in, the experience of doing and the wisdom of time, it all
seems to come together. BTW, your tanks look just fine to me - there don't
appear to be any massive outages with your stuff either, so I'd say you've
got envious systems too ;) They are just different.

There is also another issue which I don't think a lot of us realise: the
geographical location of tanks - mine are located in a sub-tropical part of
the southern hemisphere (East coast of Australia) and it's quite warm in the
day time here atm. I don't have such a battle on my hands to raise water
temperature as my northern cousins do. Neither is the water quality so bad I
have to play with it. I am lucky living in this lucky land to be honest with
you.

Any way, enough ranting, all I have to really say is application and
patience will get you pearling, growing and oggling :)

Best Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and one
> small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing it
> all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think giving
> the other two bits a good clean up would be?

Well in my experience a boggy slimey piece of wood, even after a bleach
bath, H2O2 dosing, a scrubbing and an airing will do exactly the same thing
again and again. It's the lignin breaking down I suspect.

What I am tinkering with atm, is covering my piece with fibreglass resin.
Either that, or making a fake piece from foam and fibreglass resin - a piece
that will stay down on it's own. I can also get "artistic" with the paint
and have any wood finish I like this way ;) I am thinking this from a
maintinence point of view - so that it can be easily scrubbed and cleaned.

It's also an option for rocks as well. The resin is inert so it doesn't
affect water chemistry, and I subscribe to the KISS principal lately, by
simplifying as many processes as possible so it's easy to diagnose faults as
they happen.

Things leaching into the water column bother me, so I really think
artificial is the way to go in this instance ;)

It's some time off in the future any how, but I'll inform you all through my
photos when it's happened ;)
>
> Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off....

They wouldn't finish a large Mystery Snail or two off I'm betting ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a variety
> of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational problem.
> It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something to nibble
> on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which feed
> newborn fish :o).

Agreed. My view on green algae is that some is okay for the reasons cited
above.

It does look good and it's actually a sign of a healthy biotope as well.

If it gets out of control though it's almost a nightmare from hell ;)

It's all about balance ulimately.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Robert Flory]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
> Instead of a single 2L bottle - use two 1.25L bottles on a T-Connector.
> Each bottle has 1 cup of sugar, 1/2 tsp of yeast and 1/2 tsp of baking
> soda. The bottles can be cycled in a smaller tank this way, without huge
> pH/carbonic acid swings and you ultimately would have more control over
> the mixtures and the CO2 system as a whole.
>
> Oz
If they are available, try what I use plastic .... 1-gallon US juice jugs,
they run for weeks. The cat can't tip them over.

Bob

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my
> >> > tank.
> >> > But
> >> > from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
> >> > not.
> >> > The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> >> > question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel
> >> > to a
> >> > certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep
> >> > the
> >> > front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> >> > They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> >> > fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> >> > What do you all think????
> >>
> >>
> >> CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a
> >> steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out
> >> of
> >> the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the
> >> theory
> >> of what you will be doing).
> >>
> >> The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment
> >> variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works
> >> until
> >> the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran
> >> out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food.
> >> CO2
> >> pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite
> >> fun
> >> to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its
> >> own
> >> eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your
> >> single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants
> >> are
> >> also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with
> >> cats...
> >> etc etc.
> >>
> >> The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters.
> >> If
> >> your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is
> >> quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to
> >> slow it's global warming ;~).
> >> --
> >> www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> >>
> > Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low
> > being
> > just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't
> > know the
> > other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking
> > in the
> > kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons.
> >
> > What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget
> > this
> > part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially
> > as
> > gardening is my other hobby....
>
>
> If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
> variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
> problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something
> to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
> feed newborn fish :o).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with
this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big - I'll
have to move something anyway to get them in.

The problem is more that I have to keep buying new plants than the algae
itself - in some ways it is a good thing as it is helping to keep the tank
balanced. Already have had a Platy fry survive on what he could get
naturally : -). I got some big leafed stuff this weekend to see if these
fare better - the smaller stuff was just getting tangled in the algae and
ending up as a clump one end of the tank - the fish seem to be appreciating
the additional open space.

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and
one
> > small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing
it
> > all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think
giving
> > the other two bits a good clean up would be?
>
> Well in my experience a boggy slimey piece of wood, even after a bleach
> bath, H2O2 dosing, a scrubbing and an airing will do exactly the same
thing
> again and again. It's the lignin breaking down I suspect.
>
> What I am tinkering with atm, is covering my piece with fibreglass resin.
> Either that, or making a fake piece from foam and fibreglass resin - a
piece
> that will stay down on it's own. I can also get "artistic" with the paint
> and have any wood finish I like this way ;) I am thinking this from a
> maintinence point of view - so that it can be easily scrubbed and cleaned.
>
> It's also an option for rocks as well. The resin is inert so it doesn't
> affect water chemistry, and I subscribe to the KISS principal lately, by
> simplifying as many processes as possible so it's easy to diagnose faults
as
> they happen.
>
> Things leaching into the water column bother me, so I really think
> artificial is the way to go in this instance ;)
>
> It's some time off in the future any how, but I'll inform you all through
my
> photos when it's happened ;)
> >
> > Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off....
>
> They wouldn't finish a large Mystery Snail or two off I'm betting ;)
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
BTW I love what you've done with the styro backing.....just wish I had the
artistic ability to do similar for my new Malawi tank - been looking for
something like that for weeks but couldn't find anything local...

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>>If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
>>variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
>>problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something
>>to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
>>feed newborn fish :o).
>>--
>>www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
>
> So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with
> this.

I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if
there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your
tank may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple
bottles to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2
and wiping out your fish population if you aren't careful.

What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
> there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big - I'll
> have to move something anyway to get them in.
>

But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as
the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which
the right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae
eaters. The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks.

I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2.

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:

> So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with
> this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
> there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big - I'll
> have to move something anyway to get them in.
>
> The problem is more that I have to keep buying new plants than the algae
> itself - in some ways it is a good thing as it is helping to keep the tank
> balanced. Already have had a Platy fry survive on what he could get
> naturally : -). I got some big leafed stuff this weekend to see if these
> fare better - the smaller stuff was just getting tangled in the algae and
> ending up as a clump one end of the tank - the fish seem to be appreciating
> the additional open space.
>
> Gill
>
>
I suddenly realized that none of us have asked how much light you have.
It sounds like that tank is getting an awful lot of light to grow big
clumps of thready algae like that. And I bet your platy fry are loving
life! Light is an essential part of the light/CO2/fertilizer/micro
element balance. You mentioned that the room is bright. If your tank
is actually getting sunlight, you'll have to a lot of plants before they
can outcompete the algae.

Clown pl*cos are iffy algae eaters but cool little fish. Bristlenose
plecos are a bit harder-working but you probably don't want another
pleco. For cleaning green algae from glass and broad-leaved plants, I
like Farlowella spp. (stick catfish) myself. They'll often hang out
nose-down in amazon sword plants. Avoid the huge "Royal Farlowella"
which eats the plants right along with the algae. Farlowellas can have
a tough time acclimating and you may lose one, but once you have a fish
that likes your tank it will live for many years.

Another to consider is otocinclus but they tend to eat soft green algaes
and diatoms rather than the big, thready stuff. They are small, shy,
and should be kept in groups.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal
with
> > this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown
Pl*co in
> > there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big -
I'll
> > have to move something anyway to get them in.
> >
> > The problem is more that I have to keep buying new plants than the algae
> > itself - in some ways it is a good thing as it is helping to keep the
tank
> > balanced. Already have had a Platy fry survive on what he could get
> > naturally : -). I got some big leafed stuff this weekend to see if
these
> > fare better - the smaller stuff was just getting tangled in the algae
and
> > ending up as a clump one end of the tank - the fish seem to be
appreciating
> > the additional open space.
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >
> I suddenly realized that none of us have asked how much light you have.
> It sounds like that tank is getting an awful lot of light to grow big
> clumps of thready algae like that. And I bet your platy fry are loving
> life! Light is an essential part of the light/CO2/fertilizer/micro
> element balance. You mentioned that the room is bright. If your tank
> is actually getting sunlight, you'll have to a lot of plants before they
> can outcompete the algae.
>
> Clown pl*cos are iffy algae eaters but cool little fish. Bristlenose
> plecos are a bit harder-working but you probably don't want another
> pleco. For cleaning green algae from glass and broad-leaved plants, I
> like Farlowella spp. (stick catfish) myself. They'll often hang out
> nose-down in amazon sword plants. Avoid the huge "Royal Farlowella"
> which eats the plants right along with the algae. Farlowellas can have
> a tough time acclimating and you may lose one, but once you have a fish
> that likes your tank it will live for many years.
>
> Another to consider is otocinclus but they tend to eat soft green algaes
> and diatoms rather than the big, thready stuff. They are small, shy,
> and should be kept in groups.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Light is very much a big factor although we do have a lot of blinds....the
tank is in a conservatory - beginners mistake.....heat shouldn't be too much
of a factor in the summer as we've learnt over the years how to control it
although I will monitor this summer and consider a cooler if nec. I've
already accepted that the algae control will be a challenge with this amount
of light which is why everyone's ideas are really great - thanks!!!

Do you think that the Twig Catfish would cope with a PH of 7.5? - I did a
google which suggested they prefer more acidic (but you get so much
contradictory info). The Ottos sound appealing but I'll have to shift some
fish to accommodate a group of them.....

More plants might be another option....

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> >>If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
> >>variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
> >>problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish
something
> >>to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
> >>feed newborn fish :o).
> >>--
> >>www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> >>
> >
> > So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal
with
> > this.
>
> I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if
> there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your
> tank may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple
> bottles to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2
> and wiping out your fish population if you aren't careful.
>
> What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
> > there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big -
I'll
> > have to move something anyway to get them in.
> >
>
> But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as
> the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which
> the right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae
> eaters. The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks.
>
> I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2.
>
> Nikki
>
Hi Nikki,
Your water quality must be quite close to mine I guess - I live in Reading.
I think I prefer the idea of trying to tackle this naturally with fish
rather than adding more variables into the tank (ie. CO2) - going off to
research the fish and see what will suit.

Thanks
Gill

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:

> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>>"NetMax" > wrote in message
>>>
>>>>If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
>>>>variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
>>>>problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish
>
> something
>
>>>>to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which
>>>>feed newborn fish :o).
>>>>--
>>>>www.NetMax.tk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal
>
> with
>
>>>this.
>>
>>I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if
>>there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your
>>tank may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple
>>bottles to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2
>>and wiping out your fish population if you aren't careful.
>>
>> What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
>>
>>>there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big -
>
> I'll
>
>>>have to move something anyway to get them in.
>>>
>>
>>But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as
>>the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which
>>the right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae
>>eaters. The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks.
>>
>>I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2.
>>
>>Nikki
>>
>
> Hi Nikki,
> Your water quality must be quite close to mine I guess - I live in Reading.
> I think I prefer the idea of trying to tackle this naturally with fish
> rather than adding more variables into the tank (ie. CO2) - going off to
> research the fish and see what will suit.
>

How did the tank in the conservatory cope with that heat wave in 2003??

BTW, I just ordered some of that Flourish Excel fertiliser from
http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/. I may give it a try in a spare tank
when I find the time as I'm curious about it.

Nikki

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> BTW I love what you've done with the styro backing.....just wish I had the
> artistic ability to do similar for my new Malawi tank - been looking for
> something like that for weeks but couldn't find anything local...

Hi,

there is nothing more to that background other than foam, glue and a knife
and paint.

The hardest bit was cutting thw right size out. The "rocks/stones" are
simply broken bits of foam stuck onto the backing.

I just went 45 degrees with a knife along all the square edges and then
painted it.

Nothing artistic there ;)

It's one of the easiest DIY things I've done for an aquarium to be honest.


Oz


--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if
> there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your tank
> may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple bottles
> to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2 and wiping
> out your fish population if you aren't careful.

Is it hard from the pH reading or hard from GH and KH readings?

You can actually have high pH and soft water. The GH and especially KH
determine the effectiveness of CO2 (carbonic acid)effect on the water. I
really high KH will buffer the water so effectively that nothing can shift
it, or the pH.

The water here in Sydney, Australia, has gone through a phase like this
previously and it's going through one right now, because of the sources
switching frequently (still in drought unfortunatly). For instance when the
KH in my tank was 5dKH a few weeks ago I was at pH 6.8 and getting 15ppm
CO2. This week, however, it's more like pH 7.2 and KH of 7dKH with exactly
the same CO2 bubble rate and reactor. - The water is more buffered, so the
CO2 drops.

It's a relationship, that once you get a grip of the factors, makes perfect
sense.

I think this is what NetMax was intimating when said his tanks are "liquid
rock" ;)

> But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as
> the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which the
> right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae eaters.
> The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks.

This is part of "the balance" I quite often go on about. I have 4 SAE's, 2
Swordtails and a large snail and a medium amount of plants, but I still have
some green algae. It's deliberately left there, but I get the impression
it's actually not doing too well.

The SAE's only spot remove the stuff. The Snail seems more intent on eating
brine shrimp excess on the substrate and the Swordtails take care of new
leaves which have anything on them.

I am off to buy some algae wafer food for the posse today actually because I
think I have the balance too far the other way now.

What I am getting at, is that a certain balance can be achieved using plants
and algae eating creatures. This is obtained at the human/macro level by
balancing nutrient amount and compostion, lighting intensity, spectrum and
period, and to a certain extent, what you actually place in the tank. The
natural balance comes after the macro stage, and even then mechanical
removal of some of it is still needed.

SAE's and Snails don't excuse any of us from glass scraping and gravel
vaccing ;)

Well not me at any rate. Besides, I like getting my hands into the water and
doing the gardening and cleaning, and as an added bonus I can "feel" the KH
of the water ;)

> I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2.

Agreed - especially SAEs if you can get them - Crosselius siamensis only
though. Great little fish - much, much better than those dreadful
look-alikes The Chinese Algae Eater ;)


Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>> Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>> > So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to
>> > deal
> with
>> > this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown
> Pl*co in
>> > there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big -
> I'll
>> > have to move something anyway to get them in.
>> >
>> > The problem is more that I have to keep buying new plants than the
>> > algae
>> > itself - in some ways it is a good thing as it is helping to keep
>> > the
> tank
>> > balanced. Already have had a Platy fry survive on what he could get
>> > naturally : -). I got some big leafed stuff this weekend to see if
> these
>> > fare better - the smaller stuff was just getting tangled in the
>> > algae
> and
>> > ending up as a clump one end of the tank - the fish seem to be
> appreciating
>> > the additional open space.
>> >
>> > Gill
>> >
>> >
>> I suddenly realized that none of us have asked how much light you
>> have.
>> It sounds like that tank is getting an awful lot of light to grow
>> big
>> clumps of thready algae like that. And I bet your platy fry are
>> loving
>> life! Light is an essential part of the light/CO2/fertilizer/micro
>> element balance. You mentioned that the room is bright. If your tank
>> is actually getting sunlight, you'll have to a lot of plants before
>> they
>> can outcompete the algae.
>>
>> Clown pl*cos are iffy algae eaters but cool little fish. Bristlenose
>> plecos are a bit harder-working but you probably don't want another
>> pleco. For cleaning green algae from glass and broad-leaved plants, I
>> like Farlowella spp. (stick catfish) myself. They'll often hang out
>> nose-down in amazon sword plants. Avoid the huge "Royal Farlowella"
>> which eats the plants right along with the algae. Farlowellas can
>> have
>> a tough time acclimating and you may lose one, but once you have a
>> fish
>> that likes your tank it will live for many years.
>>
>> Another to consider is otocinclus but they tend to eat soft green
>> algaes
>> and diatoms rather than the big, thready stuff. They are small, shy,
>> and should be kept in groups.
>>
>> --
>> __ Elaine T __
>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>
> Light is very much a big factor although we do have a lot of
> blinds....the
> tank is in a conservatory - beginners mistake.....heat shouldn't be too
> much
> of a factor in the summer as we've learnt over the years how to control
> it
> although I will monitor this summer and consider a cooler if nec. I've
> already accepted that the algae control will be a challenge with this
> amount
> of light which is why everyone's ideas are really great - thanks!!!
>
> Do you think that the Twig Catfish would cope with a PH of 7.5? - I did
> a
> google which suggested they prefer more acidic (but you get so much
> contradictory info). The Ottos sound appealing but I'll have to shift
> some
> fish to accommodate a group of them.....
>
> More plants might be another option....


Floating plants (Hornwort) or plants which send large lilypad-like leaves
to the surface (Tiger Lotus) have the added advantage of reducing the
light reaching the rest of the tank.

The effectiveness of CO2 (on plant growth) diminishes in an environment
where the water is highly buffered and the pH is high.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>> Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and
>> one
>> small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure
>> removing it
>> all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think
>> giving
>> the other two bits a good clean up would be?
>
> Well in my experience a boggy slimey piece of wood, even after a bleach
> bath, H2O2 dosing, a scrubbing and an airing will do exactly the same
> thing again and again. It's the lignin breaking down I suspect.
>
> What I am tinkering with atm, is covering my piece with fibreglass
> resin. Either that, or making a fake piece from foam and fibreglass
> resin - a piece that will stay down on it's own. I can also get
> "artistic" with the paint and have any wood finish I like this way ;) I
> am thinking this from a maintinence point of view - so that it can be
> easily scrubbed and cleaned.
>
> It's also an option for rocks as well. The resin is inert so it doesn't
> affect water chemistry, and I subscribe to the KISS principal lately,
> by simplifying as many processes as possible so it's easy to diagnose
> faults as they happen.
>
> Things leaching into the water column bother me, so I really think
> artificial is the way to go in this instance ;)
>
> It's some time off in the future any how, but I'll inform you all
> through my photos when it's happened ;)
>>
>> Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off....
>
> They wouldn't finish a large Mystery Snail or two off I'm betting ;)
>
> Oz

Somewhere in this article
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=driftwood/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=1/IPC=ca/SHE=0/H=2/SIG=12glgllfh/EXP=1109207595/*-http%3A//www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/aquascaping/wood.shtml
there is an explanation why you should not scrub the bio-film of off
driftwood, except in the area affected.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "spiral_72" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Oz, I loathe you and your plants!
>> You obviously have something going right.
>>
>> Phooey.
>
> I am tempted to LOL! because you have no idea of the "pain" I've been
> through to get to this stage. (well perhaps you do)
>
> Honestly, it's been touch and go for a couple of months now, and it's
> only this week I feel big enough to tell people about it.
>
> The path to this current success was winding and torturous, but that
> said, I read a lot, was patient and took the advice of many people in
> these groups.
>
> In my case it's apparently working. ymmv.
>
> If I can say anything about it, it is this: I am happy it's all
> happening at the moment, but as things use up (nutrients in the gravel
> etc,) and the small things go in and out of balance, I can't honestly
> say I can "brag" like I have been of late ;)
>
> I am hoping the plants keep it up, and that the CO2 doesn't fail. I am
> expecting a massive change in circumstances when I replace the fluoro
> tubes in a few months for instance.
>
> I have noticed different growth characteristics from the two tubes I
> use. The Philips Aquarelle seems to put out a lot of light in the the
> red part of the spectrum, in comparison to the Chinese plant spectrum
> one I have from LFS#1 - the result is that while the fish look great, I
> think it's turning leaves red. It's hard to say because for so long I
> went with out fertilization other than fish food and mulm.
>
> The greatest and most solid advice for plants in my experience seems to
> be - right sized particles in the substrate, sufficient light intensity
> and period (spectrum and CRI independent), macro fetilization via slow
> release, micro fertilization via water column, correct plant selection
> for the amount of light and nutrient and the right fish to go with all
> of this, and of course a stable, reliable and non-polluting CO2 system.
>
> It all seems daunting when you first hear of it all, but given a little
> time for it to sink in, the experience of doing and the wisdom of time,
> it all seems to come together. BTW, your tanks look just fine to me -
> there don't appear to be any massive outages with your stuff either, so
> I'd say you've got envious systems too ;) They are just different.
>
> There is also another issue which I don't think a lot of us realise:
> the geographical location of tanks - mine are located in a sub-tropical
> part of the southern hemisphere (East coast of Australia) and it's
> quite warm in the day time here atm. I don't have such a battle on my
> hands to raise water temperature as my northern cousins do. Neither is
> the water quality so bad I have to play with it. I am lucky living in
> this lucky land to be honest with you.
>
> Any way, enough ranting, all I have to really say is application and
> patience will get you pearling, growing and oggling :)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Oz


To Oz,
Based on what I think is the excellent advice you provide, and the short
time which you have been researching in earnest, I have the feeling that
you are neither typical or representative of the average hobbyist. I
would say that your results and your level of knowledge is exceptional,
and the only drawback that your accurate and well intentioned
observations might sometimes have, is when the less 'exceptional' try to
reproduce them ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal
>
> with
>
>>>this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown
>
> Pl*co in
>
>>>there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big -
>
> I'll
>
>>>have to move something anyway to get them in.
>>>
>>>The problem is more that I have to keep buying new plants than the algae
>>>itself - in some ways it is a good thing as it is helping to keep the
>
> tank
>
>>>balanced. Already have had a Platy fry survive on what he could get
>>>naturally : -). I got some big leafed stuff this weekend to see if
>
> these
>
>>>fare better - the smaller stuff was just getting tangled in the algae
>
> and
>
>>>ending up as a clump one end of the tank - the fish seem to be
>
> appreciating
>
>>>the additional open space.
>>>
>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I suddenly realized that none of us have asked how much light you have.
>> It sounds like that tank is getting an awful lot of light to grow big
>>clumps of thready algae like that. And I bet your platy fry are loving
>>life! Light is an essential part of the light/CO2/fertilizer/micro
>>element balance. You mentioned that the room is bright. If your tank
>>is actually getting sunlight, you'll have to a lot of plants before they
>>can outcompete the algae.
>>
>>Clown pl*cos are iffy algae eaters but cool little fish. Bristlenose
>>plecos are a bit harder-working but you probably don't want another
>>pleco. For cleaning green algae from glass and broad-leaved plants, I
>>like Farlowella spp. (stick catfish) myself. They'll often hang out
>>nose-down in amazon sword plants. Avoid the huge "Royal Farlowella"
>>which eats the plants right along with the algae. Farlowellas can have
>>a tough time acclimating and you may lose one, but once you have a fish
>>that likes your tank it will live for many years.
>>
>>Another to consider is otocinclus but they tend to eat soft green algaes
>>and diatoms rather than the big, thready stuff. They are small, shy,
>>and should be kept in groups.
>>
>>--
>> __ Elaine T __
>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>
>
> Light is very much a big factor although we do have a lot of blinds....the
> tank is in a conservatory - beginners mistake.....heat shouldn't be too much
> of a factor in the summer as we've learnt over the years how to control it
> although I will monitor this summer and consider a cooler if nec. I've
> already accepted that the algae control will be a challenge with this amount
> of light which is why everyone's ideas are really great - thanks!!!
>
> Do you think that the Twig Catfish would cope with a PH of 7.5? - I did a
> google which suggested they prefer more acidic (but you get so much
> contradictory info). The Ottos sound appealing but I'll have to shift some
> fish to accommodate a group of them.....
>
> More plants might be another option....
>

I kept a Farlowella at pH 7.4 for years. Just acclimate the fish to
your tankwater carefully. Also, if you get one that's been at LFS for a
couple of weeks, it should be used to your local pH. We did often have
some fish in new shipments die so don't buy new imports if you can help it.

More plants are ALWAYS an option for me! *grin*

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> Somewhere in this article
> http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=driftwood/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=1/IPC=ca/SHE=0/H=2/SIG=12glgllfh/EXP=1109207595/*-http%3A//www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/aquascaping/wood.shtml
> there is an explanation why you should not scrub the bio-film of off
> driftwood, except in the area affected.

Thanks, I know this article well and it was considered before I finally
removed my piece of wood from the tank.

I am just over it. On re-reading though, I think it's probably not a good
idea to cover it in resin, so the artificial wood is the route I am going to
take, if at all.

I added quite a few more plants today (I will photograph it and upload it to
the photo-blog some time over this coming weekend), and the tank is starting
to get short on free swimming space.

That's it now for the plants. I can just divide from here on in. I still
have 4 red plants on order at LFS#1, but I may lay off them for the time
being because my pearling has stopped because of increased carbon
consumption and the time is approaching where aquascaping is going to be the
issue.

I also added 5 more Serpae, 2 female swords and single Hockey Stick (to
replace the stargate loss;); I put my sick Serpae out of her misery as she
just wasn't getting any better unfortunately, so I thought while I was at
LFS#2 today 5 more wouldn't hurt;)

So in a (now) quite heavily planted, CO2 injected 220L/58gal tank I have a
total of 45 fish, and I'd say I am at the limit on the fish side right now.
There isn't enough space, quite frankly, for the wood, and it really was
more trouble than it was worth to me.

It must have been affecting the pH though, because my pH has been hovering
around 7.0 since I removed it. It was previously 6.6 to 6.8. As long as I
keep the CO2 up I can keep the pH down from it's natural 7.8.

Because I've got 4SAE's (which are growing pretty fast I might add) and 4
swords and a Mystery Snail, I bought some wafers today, because all of these
things have the algae completly under control and I'm particularly worried
about the SAE's not getting enough greens.

Strange thing happened though when I fed them tonight - the SAE's went for
the ground brine shrimp pellets floating on the surface and the Swords,
Serpae and Gourami went for the wafers - it was very funny watching the
non-bottom dwellers tossing the disks around and scrapping over the off
shoots ;)

Oz

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> To Oz,
> Based on what I think is the excellent advice you provide, and the short
> time which you have been researching in earnest, I have the feeling that
> you are neither typical or representative of the average hobbyist. I
> would say that your results and your level of knowledge is exceptional,
> and the only drawback that your accurate and well intentioned observations
> might sometimes have, is when the less 'exceptional' try to reproduce them
> ;~).

Well, thanks! I try to be as illustrative as possible with my answers and
conversations but I think I have propensity to rave a bit.

I still need advice though and when all is said and done, all of my
knowledge has come from links provided by Google searching of web and groups
and many more useful links have come from these discussion groups - nothing
the average person couldn't do, to be honest.

Currently, advice I am tending give is actually coming from personal
experience, but over-all I just can't believe how "into" this I got so soon.
I thought I learn about computers fast, but this takes the cake ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Nikki Casali]

NetMax wrote:
> The effectiveness of CO2 (on plant growth) diminishes in an environment
> where the water is highly buffered and the pH is high.

Are you saying that 25 mg/L of CO2 in highly buffered water is less
conducive to plant growth than 25 mg/L of CO2 in lightly buffered water?

Nikki

[Nikki Casali]

Ozdude wrote:

> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if
>>there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your tank
>>may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple bottles
>>to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2 and wiping
>>out your fish population if you aren't careful.
>
>
> Is it hard from the pH reading or hard from GH and KH readings?
>

Without CO2 additions, the pH is 8.1 in a stocked tank. Goes up to 8.3
without fish and plants. The GH is 340 mg/L. The KH is 220 mg/L.

> You can actually have high pH and soft water. The GH and especially KH
> determine the effectiveness of CO2 (carbonic acid)effect on the water. I
> really high KH will buffer the water so effectively that nothing can shift
> it, or the pH.
>
I get my tanks down to pH 7.25 with no problems with compressed CO2
cylinder. It's about 90 bubbles per minute in my 330L. I keep hearing
about end of tank dumps so I got myself a couple of pH controllers. The
bubble rate seems to be proportional to the room temperature. Slow in
the morning, faster in the evening. The controller keeps check on that.

> The water here in Sydney, Australia, has gone through a phase like this
> previously and it's going through one right now, because of the sources
> switching frequently (still in drought unfortunatly). For instance when the
> KH in my tank was 5dKH a few weeks ago I was at pH 6.8 and getting 15ppm
> CO2. This week, however, it's more like pH 7.2 and KH of 7dKH with exactly
> the same CO2 bubble rate and reactor. - The water is more buffered, so the
> CO2 drops.
>

Who tells you when the water switches? That could prove deadly to the
fish if you're controlling the pH through a pH controller.

> It's a relationship, that once you get a grip of the factors, makes perfect
> sense.
>
The pH/KH/CO2 relationship? Yes.

> I think this is what NetMax was intimating when said his tanks are "liquid
> rock" ;)
>
340 mg/L Total Hardness, I suppose there's still a bit to go before
Liquid Rock status. Maybe not.

>
> This is part of "the balance" I quite often go on about. I have 4 SAE's, 2
> Swordtails and a large snail and a medium amount of plants, but I still have
> some green algae. It's deliberately left there, but I get the impression
> it's actually not doing too well.

That's so cruel. Poking fun at that algae. You turn your back and before
you know it...

> The SAE's only spot remove the stuff.

I think my SAE removed that one BIG spot in my aquarium.

>
> I am off to buy some algae wafer food for the posse today actually because I
> think I have the balance too far the other way now.
>

Ever few days I drop in a leaf of Romaine lettuce. The Ancistrus love
the stuff, although it's usually only the big Ancistrus who really gets
to eat it, the bully he is. It's shuffle, shuffle and whack with the
tail, "Mine!"

> What I am getting at, is that a certain balance can be achieved using plants
> and algae eating creatures. This is obtained at the human/macro level by
> balancing nutrient amount and compostion, lighting intensity, spectrum and
> period, and to a certain extent, what you actually place in the tank. The
> natural balance comes after the macro stage, and even then mechanical
> removal of some of it is still needed.
>
Ooh, I'm going all cross-eyed. :-)

> SAE's and Snails don't excuse any of us from glass scraping and gravel
> vaccing ;)
>
Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp:
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg

> I can "feel" the KH of the water ;)
>
I bet that takes some practice!

>
>>I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2.
>
>
> Agreed - especially SAEs if you can get them - Crosselius siamensis only
> though. Great little fish - much, much better than those dreadful
> look-alikes The Chinese Algae Eater ;)
>

I don't believe there's a substitute for SAE. Maybe a few dozen Amano
shrimp? Do they eat BBA?

Nikki

[steve]

Ozdude wrote:

> Currently, advice I am tending to give is actually coming from
personal
> experience, but over-all I just can't believe how "into" this I got
so soon.
> I thought I learned about computers fast, but this takes the cake ;)
>
> Oz

You and me both, Oz. It isn't that suprising for me though, based on
my past eh, hobbies (read obsessions). Years back, a friend took me
bass fishing. By the end of that year I had subscribed to 2 magazines,
bought one of every kind of bass lure from Bass Pro Shops and countless
other vendors, and had 6 fishing poles that I took to the lakes weekly.
A few years later while shopping for my son's 12th birthday I found
some model rockets. I'd done them as a youngster and we had a great
time the following weekend. Finding the internet then, (1998) I was
subjected to more information on the subject than I could ever dream
of. From here: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4186/

to here: http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/hojocrew3.jpg

in just a few short years.

Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store or have a 7
tiered pond-aquarium-vivarium combo large enough to scuba dive in. :)

steve

[Nikki Casali]

steve wrote:
> Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store

That would put an end to the hobby...

Nikki

[Angrie.Woman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. But
> from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not.
> The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep the
> front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> What do you all think????

If you don't mind the algae in the tank, why get rid of it?

A

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:

<snip>

> Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp:
> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg
>

Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the
contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords.

I just took a shot of mine last night.
http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow
into that jungle kinda look.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
> steve wrote:
> > Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store
>
> That would put an end to the hobby...
>
> Nikki
>
I almost went that route in the '90s when the first round of the
obsession hit. I had a friend who has run a store and loves to do it. I
actually did end up working weekends in LFS. I made extra cash, got a
discount, and had great fun netting every fish, plant, or invertebrate
imaginable on the busy weekend fish aisle. Just don't touch carpet
anemones with bare hands and expect to be soaked when you have to catch
a foot-long koi!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
<snip>

> Strange thing happened though when I fed them tonight - the SAE's went for
> the ground brine shrimp pellets floating on the surface and the Swords,
> Serpae and Gourami went for the wafers - it was very funny watching the
> non-bottom dwellers tossing the disks around and scrapping over the off
> shoots ;)
>
> Oz

When I worked in a pet shop, that was one of the most enjoyable parts,
feeding the fish. About 120 tanks, and while I could do it in about 20
minutes, my preference was to spread it out over the morning (or evening).
I found that it benefited the customers a lot when they saw the various
foods and techniques available. Your post reminded me of the games of
soccer some fish would have. Drop a single algae wafer in a 60g tank of
Silver dollars, and invariably one will get it in his mouth and run with it.
Soon someone wrestles it out of his mouth, until it is stolen by someone
else (and so on). I could get about 3 wafers in simultaneous play. Similar
gameplay would be happening in the tank of Tiger barbs, Monos, Piranhas,
Pacus, Congo tetras, and stealing foods from the cats (and vice-versa) was
part of the game. The big Pacus would take the wafer in its mouth and spin
it, chewing it into a progressively smaller disk. Sometimes they would even
spin 2 disks at the same time (with varying degrees of success ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>
> >>>"NetMax" > wrote in message
> >>>
> >>>>If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a
> >>>>variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational
> >>>>problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish
> >
> > something
> >
> >>>>to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms
which
> >>>>feed newborn fish :o).
> >>>>--
> >>>>www.NetMax.tk
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal
> >
> > with
> >
> >>>this.
> >>
> >>I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if
> >>there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your
> >>tank may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple
> >>bottles to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2
> >>and wiping out your fish population if you aren't careful.
> >>
> >> What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in
> >>
> >>>there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big -
> >
> > I'll
> >
> >>>have to move something anyway to get them in.
> >>>
> >>
> >>But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as
> >>the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which
> >>the right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae
> >>eaters. The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks.
> >>
> >>I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2.
> >>
> >>Nikki
> >>
> >
> > Hi Nikki,
> > Your water quality must be quite close to mine I guess - I live in
Reading.
> > I think I prefer the idea of trying to tackle this naturally with fish
> > rather than adding more variables into the tank (ie. CO2) - going off to
> > research the fish and see what will suit.
> >
>
> How did the tank in the conservatory cope with that heat wave in 2003??
>
> BTW, I just ordered some of that Flourish Excel fertiliser from
> http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/. I may give it a try in a spare tank
> when I find the time as I'm curious about it.
>
> Nikki
>
Didn't have the tank then....but since 2003 we've made some changes in there
so it doesn't get too hot...

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and
> >> one
> >> small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure
> >> removing it
> >> all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think
> >> giving
> >> the other two bits a good clean up would be?
> >
> > Well in my experience a boggy slimey piece of wood, even after a bleach
> > bath, H2O2 dosing, a scrubbing and an airing will do exactly the same
> > thing again and again. It's the lignin breaking down I suspect.
> >
> > What I am tinkering with atm, is covering my piece with fibreglass
> > resin. Either that, or making a fake piece from foam and fibreglass
> > resin - a piece that will stay down on it's own. I can also get
> > "artistic" with the paint and have any wood finish I like this way ;) I
> > am thinking this from a maintinence point of view - so that it can be
> > easily scrubbed and cleaned.
> >
> > It's also an option for rocks as well. The resin is inert so it doesn't
> > affect water chemistry, and I subscribe to the KISS principal lately,
> > by simplifying as many processes as possible so it's easy to diagnose
> > faults as they happen.
> >
> > Things leaching into the water column bother me, so I really think
> > artificial is the way to go in this instance ;)
> >
> > It's some time off in the future any how, but I'll inform you all
> > through my photos when it's happened ;)
> >>
> >> Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off....
> >
> > They wouldn't finish a large Mystery Snail or two off I'm betting ;)
> >
> > Oz
>
> Somewhere in this article
>
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=driftwood/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=1/IPC=ca/SHE=0/H=2/SIG=12glgllfh/EXP=1109207595/*-http%3A//www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/aquascaping/wood.shtml
> there is an explanation why you should not scrub the bio-film of off
> driftwood, except in the area affected.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
Thanks for the link....answered a few other questions I was asking myself
about driftwood...:-)

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Somewhere in this article
> >
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=driftwood/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=1/IPC=ca/SHE=0/H=2/SIG=12glgllfh/EXP=1109207595/*-http%3A//www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/aquascaping/wood.shtml
> > there is an explanation why you should not scrub the bio-film of off
> > driftwood, except in the area affected.
>
> Thanks, I know this article well and it was considered before I finally
> removed my piece of wood from the tank.
>
> I am just over it. On re-reading though, I think it's probably not a good
> idea to cover it in resin, so the artificial wood is the route I am going
to
> take, if at all.
>
> I added quite a few more plants today (I will photograph it and upload it
to
> the photo-blog some time over this coming weekend), and the tank is
starting
> to get short on free swimming space.
>
> That's it now for the plants. I can just divide from here on in. I still
> have 4 red plants on order at LFS#1, but I may lay off them for the time
> being because my pearling has stopped because of increased carbon
> consumption and the time is approaching where aquascaping is going to be
the
> issue.
>
> I also added 5 more Serpae, 2 female swords and single Hockey Stick (to
> replace the stargate loss;); I put my sick Serpae out of her misery as she
> just wasn't getting any better unfortunately, so I thought while I was at
> LFS#2 today 5 more wouldn't hurt;)
>
> So in a (now) quite heavily planted, CO2 injected 220L/58gal tank I have a
> total of 45 fish, and I'd say I am at the limit on the fish side right
now.
> There isn't enough space, quite frankly, for the wood, and it really was
> more trouble than it was worth to me.
>
> It must have been affecting the pH though, because my pH has been hovering
> around 7.0 since I removed it. It was previously 6.6 to 6.8. As long as I
> keep the CO2 up I can keep the pH down from it's natural 7.8.
>
> Because I've got 4SAE's (which are growing pretty fast I might add) and 4
> swords and a Mystery Snail, I bought some wafers today, because all of
these
> things have the algae completly under control and I'm particularly worried
> about the SAE's not getting enough greens.
>
> Strange thing happened though when I fed them tonight - the SAE's went for
> the ground brine shrimp pellets floating on the surface and the Swords,
> Serpae and Gourami went for the wafers - it was very funny watching the
> non-bottom dwellers tossing the disks around and scrapping over the off
> shoots ;)
>
> Oz
>
>
>
What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size.

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> u...
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> <snip>
>
> > Strange thing happened though when I fed them tonight - the SAE's went
for
> > the ground brine shrimp pellets floating on the surface and the Swords,
> > Serpae and Gourami went for the wafers - it was very funny watching the
> > non-bottom dwellers tossing the disks around and scrapping over the off
> > shoots ;)
> >
> > Oz
>
> When I worked in a pet shop, that was one of the most enjoyable parts,
> feeding the fish. About 120 tanks, and while I could do it in about 20
> minutes, my preference was to spread it out over the morning (or evening).
> I found that it benefited the customers a lot when they saw the various
> foods and techniques available. Your post reminded me of the games of
> soccer some fish would have. Drop a single algae wafer in a 60g tank of
> Silver dollars, and invariably one will get it in his mouth and run with
it.
> Soon someone wrestles it out of his mouth, until it is stolen by someone
> else (and so on). I could get about 3 wafers in simultaneous play.
Similar
> gameplay would be happening in the tank of Tiger barbs, Monos, Piranhas,
> Pacus, Congo tetras, and stealing foods from the cats (and vice-versa) was
> part of the game. The big Pacus would take the wafer in its mouth and spin
> it, chewing it into a progressively smaller disk. Sometimes they would
even
> spin 2 disks at the same time (with varying degrees of success ;~).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
My bigger clowns now play catch with any wafers/sinking tabs....usually get
them mid-tank and then carry them off....The Gouramis try and steal them
from the smaller clowns but wouldn't dare try it on the bigger ones....great
fun to watch...

[Gill Passman]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank.
But
> > from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or
not.
> > The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in
> > question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a
> > certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep the
> > front and sides clear so I can see my "babies"....
> > They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more
> > fish...the tank has enough in there as is...
> > What do you all think????
>
> If you don't mind the algae in the tank, why get rid of it?
>
> A
>
>
Although I think that it plays a part in the overall balance of the tank it
isn't very pretty. What I'm looking for is ideas of ways of controlling it
in addition to scraping and vacuuming gravel - I just had to replace most of
my plants this weekend because of it which could start to get a bit
expensive in the long run....

Gill

[Nikki Casali]

Elaine T wrote:
> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp:
>> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg
>>
>
> Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the
> contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords.
>

Aquascaping, what's that? You'd have to hypnotise me and ask my
subconscious creativity. Anything artistically pleasing is purely
accidental. I deny all responsibility, I tell ya, lol!

> I just took a shot of mine last night.
> http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow
> into that jungle kinda look.

That makes a great photo for advertising 5 gallon hex tanks. A slice of
paradise. Shame it's too small for scuba diving! I'll have to experiment
with a 13L tank I've got hanging around.

Nikki

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Elaine T wrote:
> > Nikki Casali wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp:
> >> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg
> >>
> >
> > Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the
> > contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords.
> >
>
> Aquascaping, what's that? You'd have to hypnotise me and ask my
> subconscious creativity. Anything artistically pleasing is purely
> accidental. I deny all responsibility, I tell ya, lol!
>
> > I just took a shot of mine last night.
> > http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow
> > into that jungle kinda look.
>
> That makes a great photo for advertising 5 gallon hex tanks. A slice of
> paradise. Shame it's too small for scuba diving! I'll have to experiment
> with a 13L tank I've got hanging around.
>
> Nikki
>
Looking at your tanks I think more plants is a must this weekend!!!!

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Elaine T wrote:
>>
>>>Nikki Casali wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp:
>>>>http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg
>>>>
>>>
>>>Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the
>>>contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords.
>>>
>>
>>Aquascaping, what's that? You'd have to hypnotise me and ask my
>>subconscious creativity. Anything artistically pleasing is purely
>>accidental. I deny all responsibility, I tell ya, lol!
>>
>>
>>>I just took a shot of mine last night.
>>>http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow
>>>into that jungle kinda look.
>>
>>That makes a great photo for advertising 5 gallon hex tanks. A slice of
>>paradise. Shame it's too small for scuba diving! I'll have to experiment
>>with a 13L tank I've got hanging around.
>>
>>Nikki
>>
>
> Looking at your tanks I think more plants is a must this weekend!!!!
>
>
*grin* If you can find an open patch of gravel, there's room for
another plant! I have no problem algae in mine (knock wood) - just a
bit on the glass and rocks. As I said, I think the Flourish Excel is
helping and it has made a definate difference in growth.

You might want to look for some easy fast growers like hygro, hornwort,
water wisteria (put it in a bright spot), or Rotala rotundifolia.
Grasses like valisneria or saggitaria are also good. They'll use up the
nitrates and grow fast enough to keep from getting covered with algae.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> When I worked in a pet shop, that was one of the most enjoyable parts,
> feeding the fish. About 120 tanks, and while I could do it in about 20
> minutes, my preference was to spread it out over the morning (or evening).
> I found that it benefited the customers a lot when they saw the various
> foods and techniques available. Your post reminded me of the games of
> soccer some fish would have. Drop a single algae wafer in a 60g tank of
> Silver dollars, and invariably one will get it in his mouth and run with
> it.
> Soon someone wrestles it out of his mouth, until it is stolen by someone
> else (and so on). I could get about 3 wafers in simultaneous play.
> Similar
> gameplay would be happening in the tank of Tiger barbs, Monos, Piranhas,
> Pacus, Congo tetras, and stealing foods from the cats (and vice-versa) was
> part of the game. The big Pacus would take the wafer in its mouth and spin
> it, chewing it into a progressively smaller disk. Sometimes they would
> even
> spin 2 disks at the same time (with varying degrees of success ;~).

It's funny isn't it?

I just came from my AM inspection of the tank and most of the Serpae are
vibrating at each other which I guess means they are mating ;)

The male starts vibrating/fluttering, or is it the female? - moves off into
some vegetation and the partner follows and starts a little vibrating itself
if it's in the mood. Funny thing about this is I never see the actual
intercourse. It is either very fast, or no seemingly actually happening. I
am getting quite an experiential knowledge of this fish's behaviour.

The Black Phantoms do a slightly similar thing at times, but they are mostly
concerned with turning black and twirling around each other in displays of
territorial dominance - looking like little Orca in the process :). The
females seem to be far more aggressive in this lot too.

Every scrap of that food I was talking about was gone this morning, so I am
starting to reconsider the feeding frequency. Perhaps once per day isn't
enough for these particular types of fish? I have a feeling that once
they've digested their meal they are ready again (about 30 minutes), so I
may experiment with building it up to 3 smaller feedings over the lighting
period of the tank.

Ah, the joys of fish keeping, and who says that fish don't have personality?
;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When I worked in a pet shop, that was one of the most enjoyable parts,
> > feeding the fish. About 120 tanks, and while I could do it in about 20
> > minutes, my preference was to spread it out over the morning (or
evening).
> > I found that it benefited the customers a lot when they saw the various
> > foods and techniques available. Your post reminded me of the games of
> > soccer some fish would have. Drop a single algae wafer in a 60g tank of
> > Silver dollars, and invariably one will get it in his mouth and run with
> > it.
> > Soon someone wrestles it out of his mouth, until it is stolen by someone
> > else (and so on). I could get about 3 wafers in simultaneous play.
> > Similar
> > gameplay would be happening in the tank of Tiger barbs, Monos, Piranhas,
> > Pacus, Congo tetras, and stealing foods from the cats (and vice-versa)
was
> > part of the game. The big Pacus would take the wafer in its mouth and
spin
> > it, chewing it into a progressively smaller disk. Sometimes they would
> > even
> > spin 2 disks at the same time (with varying degrees of success ;~).
>
> It's funny isn't it?
>
> I just came from my AM inspection of the tank and most of the Serpae are
> vibrating at each other which I guess means they are mating ;)
>
> The male starts vibrating/fluttering, or is it the female? - moves off
into
> some vegetation and the partner follows and starts a little vibrating
itself
> if it's in the mood. Funny thing about this is I never see the actual
> intercourse. It is either very fast, or no seemingly actually happening. I
> am getting quite an experiential knowledge of this fish's behaviour.
>
> The Black Phantoms do a slightly similar thing at times, but they are
mostly
> concerned with turning black and twirling around each other in displays of
> territorial dominance - looking like little Orca in the process :). The
> females seem to be far more aggressive in this lot too.
>
> Every scrap of that food I was talking about was gone this morning, so I
am
> starting to reconsider the feeding frequency. Perhaps once per day isn't
> enough for these particular types of fish? I have a feeling that once
> they've digested their meal they are ready again (about 30 minutes), so I
> may experiment with building it up to 3 smaller feedings over the lighting
> period of the tank.
>
> Ah, the joys of fish keeping, and who says that fish don't have
personality?
> ;)
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
I don't believe for one instance that fish don't have personality....Ok
maybe when I just kept goldfish as a kid I thought that....but every single
one of my fish has it's own quirks...maybe that's why I love them so much
:-)

[Ozdude]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Who tells you when the water switches? That could prove deadly to the fish
> if you're controlling the pH through a pH controller.

Sydney Water have a web site that's pretty on the ball, but basically I have
a mate who works for them and tells me where the water is coming from at any
particular time. I test the water at this end out of the tap to confirm.

I've taken to mixing rain water with tap water at about 50/50 lately and
especially if the pH and hardness shoot right up. I am not bothered about
minerals in the water because I use this stuff I get from K-Mart, which a
lot of Oz Aquarists are shy of for some reason, which basically puts the
minerals back in the water. It's got Acroflavin in it, which bothers me a
little, but at the concentrations it's in it's not going to kill anything.

The dechlorinator I have switched to also replaces electrolytes (sounds like
salts to me ;) so as long as I don't do a massive (more than 50%) water
change there isn't a lot of danger of osmatic shock.

Any way it must be ok because every one in the tank is as randy as, full of
life, full of colour, slimey and apparently happy ;)

Even the plants are going off so I think it's safe to say my tank is
reasonably balanced and stable at this particular point in time.

>> This is part of "the balance" I quite often go on about. I have 4 SAE's,
>> 2 Swordtails and a large snail and a medium amount of plants, but I still
>> have some green algae. It's deliberately left there, but I get the
>> impression it's actually not doing too well.
>
> That's so cruel. Poking fun at that algae. You turn your back and before
> you know it...

LOL!. It's hardly having a chance to replicate and grow, to be honest. I
actually wish they'd all leave it alone because it looks quite good. To that
end I've bought some algae wafers for the bottom dwellers, so they don't
have to gnash their teeth on rock to get their greens ;)


> Ever few days I drop in a leaf of Romaine lettuce. The Ancistrus love the
> stuff, although it's usually only the big Ancistrus who really gets to eat
> it, the bully he is. It's shuffle, shuffle and whack with the tail,
> "Mine!"

I used to do this with blanched Cauliflower leaves from my garden, BUT I had
a heart attack when I suddenly realised after I ate the cauliflower that the
leaves were polluted with chemicals, and no matter how hard or much I
blanched or nuked them the bitter taste of chemical wasn't going away.

I hadn't considered it may be poisoning the critters - I live right under
the flight path for Mascot Airport (3rd or 4th busiest in the world) and
747's and all sorts of things come over so close you feel like you could
reach up an touch them. - I was harvesting leaves one day and a Jumbo went
over the garden and it was particularly low so I looked up - about 20
seconds after I had tilted my head my reading glasses got all these little
particulate dropletts on the glass.

It was jet fuel!!!!! So I thought - well the fish aren't getting of this
stuff which has been subjected to months and months of these deposits - it
was no wonder that no matter how much I washed the cauliflowers they always
tasted bitter! I was poisoning myself as well. Eeek!. So growing food crops
is out for me due to too much pollution.

I am glad I realised this is one of the factors that propbably killed
Mystery Snail #2 and the Chinese Algae Eater who'd both had a chew on my
cualiflower leaves a couple of days before their passing.

The wafers I bought weren't cheap - Haikari Brand - but the fish love them
and I have peace of mind there are 0 pollutants in them ;)

>> I can "feel" the KH of the water ;)
>>
> I bet that takes some practice!

I can feel the softness actually. But I have no idea without testing what
the numbers actually are ;)

> I don't believe there's a substitute for SAE. Maybe a few dozen Amano
> shrimp? Do they eat BBA?

Almost definately.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Nikki Casali wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp:
>> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg
>>
>
> Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the
> contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords.

Nikki,

the plant on the foreground left with the round leaves - is that Cardamine?

If it si how old is it? I got something similar yesterday and it's quite
strappy and no-where near as lush as your one ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .

> I just took a shot of mine last night.
> http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow into
> that jungle kinda look.

It's getting there isn't it? :)

That's one thing I've noticed with plants - when they grow in the tank takes
on an otherworldy look, and they certainly don't look like the day you
planted them out.

Congratulations - that looks like a really nice little tank.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"steve" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store or have a 7
> tiered pond-aquarium-vivarium combo large enough to scuba dive in. :)

Me too. The girl at the Pet Warehouse gave me information about
dechlorinators as I was buying my regular yesterday and she was trying
really hard to impart her understanding to me about what electrolyte
replacement was for.

I listened and left without additional comment (I thanked her for her
advice) but I thought to myself - perhaps I should start looking for a job
in the aquarium industry? ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> steve wrote:
> > Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store
>
> That would put an end to the hobby...

That's a problem for me too - too many hobbies have turned into jobs and in
the process I've gone off them - music was the first and I am old enough now
to know better I guess ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size.

1 Mystery Snail
1 Male Honey Gourami
4 SAE
4 Sword Tails
6 Black Neon Tetra
6 Penguin/Hockey Stick Tetra
9 Black Phantom Tetra
10 Serpae Tetra
11 Neon Tetra

Hey! that's 52 fish. Sorry, it was late last night and my mind was on other
matters when I reported 45 (like how to get DOS USB2.0 happening ;)).

So I am definitely close to, if not at the limit for this tank.

Time to sit back now and maintain it - the stocking phase is concluded for
the time being.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size.
>
> 1 Mystery Snail
> 1 Male Honey Gourami
> 4 SAE
> 4 Sword Tails
> 6 Black Neon Tetra
> 6 Penguin/Hockey Stick Tetra
> 9 Black Phantom Tetra
> 10 Serpae Tetra
> 11 Neon Tetra
>
> Hey! that's 52 fish. Sorry, it was late last night and my mind was on
other
> matters when I reported 45 (like how to get DOS USB2.0 happening ;)).
>
> So I am definitely close to, if not at the limit for this tank.
>
> Time to sit back now and maintain it - the stocking phase is concluded for
> the time being.
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
I really don't think I can go more fish....so plants has to be the option
right now until I can get my son to take some of my fish into his new
tank....I might only have 33 but they are bigger than yours

[Elaine T]

Ozdude wrote:

> I just came from my AM inspection of the tank and most of the Serpae are
> vibrating at each other which I guess means they are mating ;)
>
> The male starts vibrating/fluttering, or is it the female? - moves off into
> some vegetation and the partner follows and starts a little vibrating itself
> if it's in the mood. Funny thing about this is I never see the actual
> intercourse. It is either very fast, or no seemingly actually happening. I
> am getting quite an experiential knowledge of this fish's behaviour.
>
> The Black Phantoms do a slightly similar thing at times, but they are mostly
> concerned with turning black and twirling around each other in displays of
> territorial dominance - looking like little Orca in the process :). The
> females seem to be far more aggressive in this lot too.
>
You voyeur, you! The only fish that internally fertilize are the
livebearers. With the rest, the female lays eggs either on a solid
substrate or by scattering and then the male fertilizes them either as
she lays or shortly thereafter.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Nikki Casali]

Ozdude wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size.
>
>
> 1 Mystery Snail
> 1 Male Honey Gourami
> 4 SAE
> 4 Sword Tails
> 6 Black Neon Tetra
> 6 Penguin/Hockey Stick Tetra
> 9 Black Phantom Tetra
> 10 Serpae Tetra
> 11 Neon Tetra
>
2 Angelfish
7 Ancistrus
2 Otocinclus
2 Upside Down Catfish
4 Mollies
3 SAE
1 Ruby Shark

21 fish. Not many for a 330L tank! The icing on the cake will be 4 Clown
Loaches. But only when I regain the confidence to have them.

> Hey! that's 52 fish. Sorry, it was late last night and my mind was on other
> matters when I reported 45 (like how to get DOS USB2.0 happening ;)).
>

I see, you're trying to house train your pet DinOSaur too. Good luck.

Nikki

[Nikki Casali]

Ozdude wrote:
> Nikki,
>
> the plant on the foreground left with the round leaves - is that Cardamine?
>
It's a type of Hydrocotyle or Pennywort. I took a photo of it a few
weeks back when it was deficient in a nutrient. Iron most probably.
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/HYDROCOTYLE.JPG

> If it si how old is it? I got something similar yesterday and it's quite
> strappy and no-where near as lush as your one ;)

This plant grows as fast as a weed can grow. Leaves don't last for more
than a few weeks before they're pruned. The last prune sent 90% of its
mass into the bin. I feel bad, but it's only a plant. No need to
anthropomorphise!

Nikki

[Robert Flory]

"spiral_72" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Oz, I loathe you and your plants!
> You obviously have something going right.
>
> Phooey.
>
> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>

I go for a jungle look ...

http://www.angelfire.com/wy2/wyogeo/aquariums/

Now I just have to sort it out and learn to landscape.

Myself and some of my favorite rocks from a recent Utah visit

Bob

[Robert Flory]

Oh well ,no one would have been interested me the rocks...the url got lost
somewhere
Bob

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
...
>
> "spiral_72" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Oz, I loathe you and your plants!
>> You obviously have something going right.
>>
>> Phooey.
>>
>> my aquarium page, info and pics at:
>> www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>>
>
> I go for a jungle look ...
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/wy2/wyogeo/aquariums/
>
> Now I just have to sort it out and learn to landscape.
>
> Myself and some of my favorite rocks from a recent Utah visit
>
> Bob
>

[Elaine T]

Ozdude wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>
>>I just took a shot of mine last night.
>>http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow into
>>that jungle kinda look.
>
>
> It's getting there isn't it? :)
>
> That's one thing I've noticed with plants - when they grow in the tank takes
> on an otherworldy look, and they certainly don't look like the day you
> planted them out.
>
> Congratulations - that looks like a really nice little tank.
>
> Oz
>
Thanks! I always love watching new planted tanks grow. I know exactly
what you mean about otherworldly. I've never managed one quite as
otherworldly as some of Amano's...maybe one of these years.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Elaine T]

Nikki Casali wrote:
>
>
> Elaine T wrote:
>
>> Nikki Casali wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp:
>>> http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg
>>>
>>
>> Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the
>> contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords.
>>
>
> Aquascaping, what's that? You'd have to hypnotise me and ask my
> subconscious creativity. Anything artistically pleasing is purely
> accidental. I deny all responsibility, I tell ya, lol!
>
>> I just took a shot of mine last night.
>> http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow
>> into that jungle kinda look.
>
>
> That makes a great photo for advertising 5 gallon hex tanks. A slice of
> paradise. Shame it's too small for scuba diving! I'll have to experiment
> with a 13L tank I've got hanging around.
>
> Nikki
>
Thanks! Small tanks are fun because something like a medium sized crypt
can become a centerpiece. There's a 2 gallon cube tank in LFS and it is
an absolute lush jungle with only a handful of plants. I'm SO tempted
to get one of these little tanks and replace my 2 gallon hex.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Elaine T]

Robert Flory wrote:
> "spiral_72" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Oz, I loathe you and your plants!
>>You obviously have something going right.
>>
>>Phooey.
>>
>>my aquarium page, info and pics at:
>>www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html
>>
>
>
> I go for a jungle look ...
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/wy2/wyogeo/aquariums/
>
> Now I just have to sort it out and learn to landscape.
>
> Myself and some of my favorite rocks from a recent Utah visit
>
> Bob
>
>
Wow! I bet your fish are happy in that mass of green. What is the
reddish stem plant that's in the midground of the closer end of the tank
in the Jungle #2? It looks like it might be a thin-leaved Ludwigia?
I'm trying to choose a reddish plant and I like that one.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...


> I see, you're trying to house train your pet DinOSaur too. Good luck.

LOL! Actually a friend bought, against my advice, a USB2.0 removable HD for
a Hard Drive transfer/back-up. The program he was using couldn't image XP
while it was up and running. In the end I forgot about the "training" and
found a program that does it under Windows - too hard under DOS - it wasn't
meant to be IMO - I did get it to work in the end but as with all DinOSaur
matters one has to ask why bother when Windoze can do it better and with a
GUI ;)

Anyway, after that I sat down a drew with pencil and paper, my new
"aquascape". I've decided to remove the Pongol completely after information
that it's a bog version of Mondo Grass (as I suspected) ,which gives more
latitude for getting better placement for the plants.

The fish I have all need a fair amount of open swimming space at times. So
I've designed it to push all the tall plants to the back. The newer Blue
Strictas to the front and try to get the Java Moss (which is growing like
no-ones business) to cover the two rocks.

I am a little concerned that my GH and KH may be off the scale because I
bought a 5 in 1 test strip thing (JBL Brand from Deutchland) and it gave off
the scale readings for the hardness. I will test again tomorrow because I
think I may have caused false positive readings by testing about 10 minutes
after a 10% water change with tap water. Too eager to see if it worked ;)

The fish seem fine and all are randy as buggery, but there is another
(potential) problem which has to do with dissolved gasses and plant growth,
and that's the water temp. I can't get it down below 30C because the ambient
temperature is so high for so long lately. We're smack in the middle of
summer weather here and it's bothering me that hot water holds less oxygen,
CO2 etc., and it may be affecting the pH and KH and causing stress of the
osmotic variety.

I guess if I aquascape the plants right I will be able to put the wood back
in because that seems to have been doing more, consistently, for lowering
the pH than CO2 injection does - while the hardness is so high (I think) and
until I can get a supply of rain water (RO isn't an option for me) the wood
is the only thing I have which can lower the hardness. I am not sure about
lowering the KH with chemicals, particularly acids because the fish actually
seem fine.

It's on going, so we'll see as of tomorrow A.M. and then again at Midday and
then again at late P.M. just before the lights go out. I hope it was
nothing more than the price of impatience and a false positive reading. I
wouldn't like to pull the rocks out too because that would leave the tank at
the mercy of the CO2..we'll see it how it goes after further future testing.

I am sort of confident everything's okay and I need to get more sleep and
concentrate more on the tasks at hand ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
> Nikki
>

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> You voyeur, you! The only fish that internally fertilize are the
> livebearers. With the rest, the female lays eggs either on a solid
> substrate or by scattering and then the male fertilizes them either as she
> lays or shortly thereafter.

Ah! well there you go! - there's something I didn't know - so I guess I
won't see a physical union then.? How boring! for the fish as well.

One of the Hockeys sprayed what I think was eggs tonight - they were doing
their usual lighting dashes around the tank that they always do at sunset (I
am sure they can see the sun going down outside through the curtins even
though they have blaring fluoro lights above them simulating tropical
mid-day sun) and on one particularly furious sprint from one end to the
other all these white things sprayed out from the back of one of the three
in the chase. I didn't see it directly, but out of the corner of my eye.

When I turned to look at it all directly there was a tank wide feeding
frenzy, so I'd be surprised if Hockey Stick Tetra males ever get a chance to
fertilise their eggs. ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Elaine T]

Ozdude wrote:

snip...

> I am a little concerned that my GH and KH may be off the scale because I
> bought a 5 in 1 test strip thing (JBL Brand from Deutchland) and it gave off
> the scale readings for the hardness. I will test again tomorrow because I
> think I may have caused false positive readings by testing about 10 minutes
> after a 10% water change with tap water. Too eager to see if it worked ;)
>
> The fish seem fine and all are randy as buggery, but there is another
> (potential) problem which has to do with dissolved gasses and plant growth,
> and that's the water temp. I can't get it down below 30C because the ambient
> temperature is so high for so long lately. We're smack in the middle of
> summer weather here and it's bothering me that hot water holds less oxygen,
> CO2 etc., and it may be affecting the pH and KH and causing stress of the
> osmotic variety.

30C is certainly on the high side. However, high and stable is usually
OK. What's bad is if it goes up during the day and drops at night.
I've lowered summertime tank temps in the past by replacing my glass
canopy with fluorescent lighting diffuser. It's often called "eggcrate"
and is a sheet of open white plastic squares. You get it at hardware
stores. It allows for some evaporative cooling, especially if you clip
a little fan to the side of the tank. You can lower temps a couple of
degrees this way. You also may want to consider running an airstone at
night when the plants are using oxygen rather than providing it.

Also, don't sweat osmotic stress as long as pH and KH aren't shifting
around. Fish can adapt to a lot of different stable conditions. Yours
are clearly content and it may be the high temps that are inducing spawning.
>
> I guess if I aquascape the plants right I will be able to put the wood back
> in because that seems to have been doing more, consistently, for lowering
> the pH than CO2 injection does - while the hardness is so high (I think) and
> until I can get a supply of rain water (RO isn't an option for me) the wood
> is the only thing I have which can lower the hardness. I am not sure about
> lowering the KH with chemicals, particularly acids because the fish actually
> seem fine.

You could also filter over peat or use blackwater extract. Most
sof****er fish really like blackwater. But I'm not convinced you need
to mess with your water.
>
> It's on going, so we'll see as of tomorrow A.M. and then again at Midday and
> then again at late P.M. just before the lights go out. I hope it was
> nothing more than the price of impatience and a false positive reading. I
> wouldn't like to pull the rocks out too because that would leave the tank at
> the mercy of the CO2..we'll see it how it goes after further future testing.

Rocks? I hope you're not using limestone rocks. It's much better to
control KH with a bit of baking soda because you can measure and control
what's going into the water. That could be the source of your high KH
readings, and of course they will dissolve faster at higher temps.
>
> I am sort of confident everything's okay and I need to get more sleep and
> concentrate more on the tasks at hand ;)

Yes. Fish are spawning and plants are growing so everything is OK.
>
> Oz
>


--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> 30C is certainly on the high side. However, high and stable is usually
> OK. What's bad is if it goes up during the day and drops at night. I've
> lowered summertime tank temps in the past by replacing my glass canopy
> with fluorescent lighting diffuser. It's often called "eggcrate" and is a
> sheet of open white plastic squares. You get it at hardware stores. It
> allows for some evaporative cooling, especially if you clip a little fan
> to the side of the tank. You can lower temps a couple of degrees this
> way. You also may want to consider running an airstone at night when the
> plants are using oxygen rather than providing it.

Well it's been on my mind to put an air stone on a timer to start 30 mintes
after lights out, but because I'm not sure about my hardness right now and
seeing no-one is gasping at the surface overnight or in the morning I may
wait a little longer, but thanks for the heads-up.

I haven't re-tested for hardness yet, but will do so PM tonight just before
lights out.

I would do your vent proposal if it weren't for one thing - I have 10 quite
able jumpers in my tank and I'm sure they would somehow make it through the
egg crate openings ;)

I have been moving the lighting canopy backwards and blowing a room fan over
the exposed water surface, but it only drops the top 1/3 by about 1 degree
C.

>
> Also, don't sweat osmotic stress as long as pH and KH aren't shifting
> around. Fish can adapt to a lot of different stable conditions. Yours
> are clearly content and it may be the high temps that are inducing
> spawning.

You are correct ;) The fish are the indicator. As I said no-one is gasping
or hanging. I guess also there is another benifit to these high temps. and
that is that most ich and things like that aren't going to be able to get a
hold in the tank while the temp is on the high side. No wonder they are all
so hungry all the time - their metabolisms are in high gear ;)

I also can't imagine that in the wild, especially in the regions my fish
hail from, that water temps do regularly rise above 30C at this time of
year - especially in the Amazon/Rio Negro basin pools, and in Bangladesh and
Mexico where the Gourami and Swords come from.

My LFS#1 guy stated once that if I wasn't careful I would kill my fish with
kindness - so maybe I should chill out and relax a little? ;)


> You could also filter over peat or use blackwater extract. Most sof****er
> fish really like blackwater. But I'm not convinced you need to mess with
> your water.

Neither am I to be honest. The more I think about what I stated in the
previous post, the more I think the tank is ok, and I just managed a false
postive test through impatient testing - new toy and all that ;)

> Rocks? I hope you're not using limestone rocks. It's much better to
> control KH with a bit of baking soda because you can measure and control
> what's going into the water. That could be the source of your high KH
> readings, and of course they will dissolve faster at higher temps.

That's true - no they aren't limestones by my testing (with pH Down instead
of **** weak Vinegar). I really think after what my water board mate has
told me that it's more likely coming from the tap on water changes. When all
things are considered and time is allowed for the chemistry to settle - if
anything I think the tank should bring the hardness down.

Any way it's due to rain again soon, so I'll get out there and mix some
rainwater with the tap water and see if that makes a difference and then
I'll be closer to knowing where my (possible) hardness is coming from ;)


> Yes. Fish are spawning and plants are growing so everything is OK.

Thanks for the reassuring words - I'm going to chill out and enjoy my tank.
The flow has reduced quite a bit on my main filter, so I may attend to that,
but apart from that - I think now I'm stocked and planted it's just time to
sit back and enjoy it ;)

thanks for your words and advice, as always,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Robert Flory]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
> Wow! I bet your fish are happy in that mass of green. What is the
> reddish stem plant that's in the midground of the closer end of the tank
> in the Jungle #2? It looks like it might be a thin-leaved Ludwigia? I'm
> trying to choose a reddish plant and I like that one.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
I'm trying to find out.... I got it at a SFBAAPS plant swap. So much gets
passed around I loose track of what is what is what.
I'm slowly trying to get everyhting identified. I'll try to find out.

That tank has barely 2 effective watts per gallon, tank 1 has 80 watts for
55 gallons. I use Tom Barrs methodm with ferts.

bob

[Nikki Casali]

Ozdude wrote:

> I have been moving the lighting canopy backwards and blowing a room fan over
> the exposed water surface, but it only drops the top 1/3 by about 1 degree
> C.

A couple of summers ago, I placed a small fan a few inches away from the
surface of the water. It drove the temperature down by an incredible 5
degrees C. The down side is that almost 1 cm of water was evaporating
per day.

Why only the top 1/3? Wouldn't you expect convection to even that out?

Nikki

[Lisa]

Hey, that reminds me - I noticed an increasingly yucky smell last week
when I opened the hinged glass lid on my 46-g bowfront. I had just
done a water change, and the water level was quite high - near the top
of the lid. The smell, combined with an oily sheen on top of the
water, led me to believe that perhaps not enough oxygenation was
happening. I began thinking that too much of the tank's surface was
being covered by the glass. There was only a 2-in. strip in the back,
where I suppose some air exchange would occur. I wanted to increase
this exchange without losing any fish to jumping. OTOH, I still wanted
to be able to lift the hinged front section as needed.

So, I bought some stiff PVC mesh from Home Depot and cut it to fit the
shape of the front portion of the glass lid. Since my lid allows
partitions to slide in and out, I slid out the glass panel, used it as
a template to cut the mesh, and then slid the mesh panel into place. I
was able to attach the lift-clip to the front of the mesh panel, too.
My tank lid is now about 1/3 glass (where the light fixture rests) and
the rest is composed of the plastic mesh instead. The mesh portion
probably wouldn't bear a lot of weight, but it is more than enough to
prevent suicide jumps.

I have noticed more water loss to evaporation, but I'll bet that I have
improved the oxygen levels in my tank by a lot. There is no more bad
smell, and no more oily sheen on the surface.

I wonder why full glass lids are often presented as the norm in
aquariums? Doesn't more/better air exchange = healthier fish?
Logically, shouldn't there be more (fish-safe) openings in aquarium
lids to allow for better air circulation - or am I mistaken in this
assumption? (which is entirely possible . . .)<g>

Just wondering. . .

- Lisa in Central Coast CA

Nikki Casali wrote:
> Ozdude wrote:
>
> > I have been moving the lighting canopy backwards and blowing a room
fan over
> > the exposed water surface, but it only drops the top 1/3 by about 1
degree
> > C.
>
> A couple of summers ago, I placed a small fan a few inches away from
the
> surface of the water. It drove the temperature down by an incredible
5
> degrees C. The down side is that almost 1 cm of water was evaporating

> per day.
>
> Why only the top 1/3? Wouldn't you expect convection to even that
out?
>
> Nikki

[Richard Sexton]

>I wonder why full glass lids are often presented as the norm in
>aquariums? Doesn't more/better air exchange = healthier fish?

If you have an air driven filter this is less of an issue as you're
always introducing new air. With a power filter, no.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Ozdude]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Ozdude wrote:
>
>> I have been moving the lighting canopy backwards and blowing a room fan
>> over the exposed water surface, but it only drops the top 1/3 by about 1
>> degree C.
>
> A couple of summers ago, I placed a small fan a few inches away from the
> surface of the water. It drove the temperature down by an incredible 5
> degrees C. The down side is that almost 1 cm of water was evaporating per
> day.
>
> Why only the top 1/3? Wouldn't you expect convection to even that out?

It was actually in indication that circulation wasn't that good, and the
lights were having an effect.

I am actually amazed at the amount of heat that transposes to the water from
two 36W fluoro tubes - I thought the balast got hot and not the tubes?

I've changed the filter outflow pattern and now all of the water column is
moving.

I think I've added too many fish though because my Ammonia is high for the
first time and the water has gone cloudy.

The fan now lowers the whole tank by about 1C, and in combination with a
couple of frozen bottles I can get it down by about 3 degrees C, which is
acceptable for me. (26C)

Gees, I hope I haven't killed my bacteria off. - time to reconsider freeding
frequency and amount again, and if it doesn't do a natural cycling I think
I'll get the 10Gal going again and place the Buenos Aires Tetras and the
Hockeys in that tank. I am concerned my plants, which have taken a fair bit
of effort to get growing will be consumed by the ravinous little Buenos
Aires ;)

I am taking some water to the LFS#1 this morning after I have fnished here
to get a clearer picture of all of my levels, particularly DH, KH and CO2.

I had a thought about this chemical inbalance of late too - perhaps this new
"magic" decholrinator I've been using that "replaces lost electrolytes" is
increasing the TDS in the tank, and following on from that the GH and KH at
the same time?
It could also be in combination with the Seachem Flourish I've been using -
it's all dissolved solids that I'm adding I figure ?

I'll know better after a visit to the LFS. Ammonia bothers me because I've
never had it rise above 0 in this tank and now it's registering 5ppm and I
have white cloudy water. Bacteria, I know, which indicates the biological
filtration isn't coping. The water smells earthy too at the surface.

Still, by cutting back on feed, syphoning gravel every day to remove the
un-eaten particulate food remains and replacing water with distilled or rain
water, I should be able to get some decent balance back in the short term.

As with most of this stuff, though, I'll just have to wait and observe and
take appropriate action - I know of no way to artificially speed up a
Nitrogen Cycle with lasting effects.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Ozdude wrote:
> >
> >> I have been moving the lighting canopy backwards and blowing a room fan
> >> over the exposed water surface, but it only drops the top 1/3 by about
1
> >> degree C.
> >
> > A couple of summers ago, I placed a small fan a few inches away from the
> > surface of the water. It drove the temperature down by an incredible 5
> > degrees C. The down side is that almost 1 cm of water was evaporating
per
> > day.
> >
> > Why only the top 1/3? Wouldn't you expect convection to even that out?
>
> It was actually in indication that circulation wasn't that good, and the
> lights were having an effect.
>
> I am actually amazed at the amount of heat that transposes to the water
from
> two 36W fluoro tubes - I thought the balast got hot and not the tubes?
>
> I've changed the filter outflow pattern and now all of the water column is
> moving.
>
> I think I've added too many fish though because my Ammonia is high for the
> first time and the water has gone cloudy.
>
> The fan now lowers the whole tank by about 1C, and in combination with a
> couple of frozen bottles I can get it down by about 3 degrees C, which is
> acceptable for me. (26C)
>
> Gees, I hope I haven't killed my bacteria off. - time to reconsider
freeding
> frequency and amount again, and if it doesn't do a natural cycling I think
> I'll get the 10Gal going again and place the Buenos Aires Tetras and the
> Hockeys in that tank. I am concerned my plants, which have taken a fair
bit
> of effort to get growing will be consumed by the ravinous little Buenos
> Aires ;)
>
> I am taking some water to the LFS#1 this morning after I have fnished here
> to get a clearer picture of all of my levels, particularly DH, KH and CO2.
>
> I had a thought about this chemical inbalance of late too - perhaps this
new
> "magic" decholrinator I've been using that "replaces lost electrolytes" is
> increasing the TDS in the tank, and following on from that the GH and KH
at
> the same time?
> It could also be in combination with the Seachem Flourish I've been
using -
> it's all dissolved solids that I'm adding I figure ?
>
> I'll know better after a visit to the LFS. Ammonia bothers me because I've
> never had it rise above 0 in this tank and now it's registering 5ppm and I
> have white cloudy water. Bacteria, I know, which indicates the biological
> filtration isn't coping. The water smells earthy too at the surface.
>
> Still, by cutting back on feed, syphoning gravel every day to remove the
> un-eaten particulate food remains and replacing water with distilled or
rain
> water, I should be able to get some decent balance back in the short term.
>
> As with most of this stuff, though, I'll just have to wait and observe and
> take appropriate action - I know of no way to artificially speed up a
> Nitrogen Cycle with lasting effects.
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
I think after reading all this and the rest of the threads I think I might
just try adding more plants and eventually some SAEs....Plus I've just had
to move the internal from my main (had twopumps/filters) to my son's new
tank to try and save a crisis in his new tank so I want things to settle
again - don't want to risk more inbalance...plus he IS PUTTING IN MORE
PLANTS....he is watching me type this...LOL

Hey you guys give great advice and the discussions are brilliant for helping
to make an informed decision.....

The only problem is having had to do this with the pumps/filters I now have
to wait a bit longer for my Malawi tank - currently all rocks and nowhere to
go :-(

I think this is great for a relative beginner like me *grin*

[Nikki Casali]

Ozdude wrote:
> Gees, I hope I haven't killed my bacteria off. - time to reconsider freeding
> frequency and amount again, and if it doesn't do a natural cycling I think
> I'll get the 10Gal going again and place the Buenos Aires Tetras and the
> Hockeys in that tank. I am concerned my plants, which have taken a fair bit
> of effort to get growing will be consumed by the ravinous little Buenos
> Aires ;)
>

How could you have killed off the bacteria?

> I am taking some water to the LFS#1 this morning after I have fnished here
> to get a clearer picture of all of my levels, particularly DH, KH and CO2.

The CO2 will be a difficult one to measure, unless you put the sample in
an air-tight container filled completely.

> I had a thought about this chemical inbalance of late too - perhaps this new
> "magic" decholrinator I've been using that "replaces lost electrolytes" is
> increasing the TDS in the tank, and following on from that the GH and KH at
> the same time?
> It could also be in combination with the Seachem Flourish I've been using -
> it's all dissolved solids that I'm adding I figure ?

Do you have a TDS meter to check with?

> I'll know better after a visit to the LFS. Ammonia bothers me because I've
> never had it rise above 0 in this tank and now it's registering 5ppm and I
> have white cloudy water. Bacteria, I know, which indicates the biological
> filtration isn't coping. The water smells earthy too at the surface.

I don't understand how this could have suddenly happened. 5ppm??

> Still, by cutting back on feed, syphoning gravel every day to remove the
> un-eaten particulate food remains and replacing water with distilled or rain
> water, I should be able to get some decent balance back in the short term.
>
> As with most of this stuff, though, I'll just have to wait and observe and
> take appropriate action - I know of no way to artificially speed up a
> Nitrogen Cycle with lasting effects.

Get your plants pearling even more!! They'll suck out the ammonia like
there's no tomorrow. Or starve them of NO3 and they'll probably go for
the N in the NH3/NH4+. Or/and increase your light intensity and get that
lonely clump of algae on your side temporarily.

Nikki

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> I think after reading all this and the rest of the threads I think I might
> just try adding more plants and eventually some SAEs....Plus I've just had
> to move the internal from my main (had twopumps/filters) to my son's new
> tank to try and save a crisis in his new tank so I want things to settle
> again - don't want to risk more inbalance...plus he IS PUTTING IN MORE
> PLANTS....he is watching me type this...LOL

He's on the ball ;) You can't have enough plants IMO. They are wonderful not
only as chemical sponges and filters but they look so good. I love it when
mine pearl - it's sort of satisfying.

I started the 10Gal up again today and seeded it's new dual sponge filter
with squeezings from my main tank filters (A Resun Magi-700 and a Hailea
HD1500 internal types) and one real plant ("Pongol" Grass) and a bag of
gravel from the established tank.

The LFS where I took my water for testing had a sale on so I bought up on
cheap plastic plants and put them in there and I've adapted a 7W CF lamp for
light.

The tank looks good and I left it to clear (this time it's got river sand as
the substrate instead of small gravel so it took a few hours to clear) and
then moved all 5 Buenos Aires Tetras over to it. Quite frankly I don't, at
this moment, care if the tank has to cycle with them in it or not because I
can't bare to see the little buggers nibble one more plants new growth down
to it's stalk, chase another fish out of apparent aggression, or nip the
beautiful long fins of my Lyretails any longer.

Gees! and I thought Serpaes were bad! I can see why this tetra after being
the most popular went out of vogue. Interestingly they have all lost their
red finnage in the smaller tank. At least they can chase each other there
and there is nothing vegetable for them to eat;) I guess when they get over
the shock their colour will return.

It's the first time I've felt belligerence towards a species of fish, but
they **** me, to be honest ;)

Lesson here: don't impulse buy fish ;)

My water tests have my GH at 14ppm and KH at 10ppm, so when I moved the
little buggers out of the tank, some plants got uprooted and moved trying to
net them, so I took the opportunity to do a 30% water change, filter
maintenance and flow check and I removed the rock I suspect of raising the
hardness. The remaining rock is a red/brown sandstone-ish type, but it
doesn't fizz at all with any type of acid placed on it, so I'm confident
that's not leeching anything major.

I've weighted the wood I took out with the remaining rock, moved some of the
plants around to suit the new layout and replaced 30% water consisting of
15% Rain water and 15% dechlorinated tap water. It's clear for now and my
hands came out of the water at least feeling like it was softer than earlier
in the day. Plus it's nice to see the wood in the tank again.

I'll test the pH, GH and KH in the afternoon tomorrow (24 hours later) and
see if it's dropped down to more realistic levels. My pH was high before
lights on today too - 7.4, so hopefully when I test tomorrow I'll see GH at
8 or so, the KH at 6 or preferably 5 and the pH somewhere between 6.8 and
7.2 - fingers crossed. I also reseeded the CO2 generators so that will be
pumping by morning.

> Hey you guys give great advice and the discussions are brilliant for
> helping
> to make an informed decision.....

The more the merrier I say :) All views considered here - advice gleaned,
and discussions welcomed.

>
> The only problem is having had to do this with the pumps/filters I now
> have
> to wait a bit longer for my Malawi tank - currently all rocks and nowhere
> to
> go :-(
>
> I think this is great for a relative beginner like me *grin*

You seem to be doing just fine. I am re-newed to the hobby myself after a 30
year break. So you can imagine it's all changed quite radically - testing
anything other than pH was unheard of in the 1970's and you were limited to
UGF'd and box corner filters, air pumps and putty and glass aquariums.

It's come such a long way since then it's like Sci-Fi now - and so much
information and just about anything has a product for it these days ;)

Still, I'm all about making sure that my fish don't suffer first and then I
get the delight of the tank after that.

I spent most of this evening just watching my tanks and it was very peaceful
and relaxing ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Ozdude wrote:
>> Gees, I hope I haven't killed my bacteria off. - time to reconsider
>> freeding frequency and amount again, and if it doesn't do a natural
>> cycling I think I'll get the 10Gal going again and place the Buenos Aires
>> Tetras and the Hockeys in that tank. I am concerned my plants, which have
>> taken a fair bit of effort to get growing will be consumed by the
>> ravinous little Buenos Aires ;)
>>
>
> How could you have killed off the bacteria?
A number of ways by my reckoning:

Washing in chlorinated water (although Dick would dispute this I think ;)
Stopping the filters for too long (more than 20 minutes).
Letting the sponges dry/air out.
Using chemical meds. - like Tri-Sulpher as I had done earlier in the week.
Not cleaning the media and letting the mass go anaerobic.

When I made this comment I wasn't thinking that even if the filter media
bacteria die, there is always the biofilm on the water surface, tank walls
and gravel, plus on the leaves of the plants and in the water column itself.

I was just concerned that my water was a little milky straight after
maintenance, but I also forgot that I had disturbed one of the kitty litter
pots with plants in it and there was a large "puff" of silt at one stage.

Any way, I discovered when I awoke this morning, crystal clear water, so
sorry for being a panic merchant ;)


> The CO2 will be a difficult one to measure, unless you put the sample in
> an air-tight container filled completely.

I can calculate it from the KH and pH on a chart. I don't need accurate ppm
on this - I just need to know if I'm achieving 15ppm or higher. Given the
hardness readings from the LFS tests though I am not getting sufficient CO2
at the moment.

GH is 14ppm and the KH is 10ppm. I've taken steps to reduce it, so I'll test
agin tomorrow and see if my little tweeks worked.

I've removed the suspicious rock, replaced the driftwood, recharged the CO2
generators and did a 30% water change using 50/50 rain water and
de-clorinated tap water.

It felt softer on my skin when I removed my hands from the tank and the
Tetras seemed to be enjoying themselves.

Any way we'll see tomorrow after 24 hours has passed.

> Do you have a TDS meter to check with?

Nope.

>
>> I'll know better after a visit to the LFS. Ammonia bothers me because
>> I've never had it rise above 0 in this tank and now it's registering 5ppm
>> and I have white cloudy water. Bacteria, I know, which indicates the
>> biological filtration isn't coping. The water smells earthy too at the
>> surface.
>
> I don't understand how this could have suddenly happened. 5ppm??

Easy - overfeeding, raise in water temp, more waste and respiration from the
50 or so inhabitants of the tank (as it was yesterday), die off of filter
bacteria.

It's probably just the filters catching up and my test timing was
inopportune. It read 0.5 - is that 5ppm? Any way it's always been 0 so
anything above that is cause for concern with me ;)

I'll test again tomorrow PM and I don't expect any of the readings I got
today to be near where they are today.

> Get your plants pearling even more!! They'll suck out the ammonia like
> there's no tomorrow. Or starve them of NO3 and they'll probably go for the
> N in the NH3/NH4+. Or/and increase your light intensity and get that
> lonely clump of algae on your side temporarily.

Well by replacing the driftwood, recharging the CO2, removing the suss rock
and liquid fertilizing with Seachem Flourish, I can't do much more to make
them pearl. I left the lights on for two extra hours this evening and I did
notice after I moved the Buenos Aires Tetras over to the small tank, and sat
down and watched for a while that most plants were pearling, just not in
obvious visible streams like they have done.

I think it will all settle down over the coming week and all I need to do is
perhaps one extra water change in the middle of next week, but only really
to clean the gravel and feed the plants. It won't hurt the fish though ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...

Hardness readings: (it's late and I should go to bed;)

They weren't ppm - they were dGH and dKH - duh!

Oz

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
>I am concerned my plants, which have taken a fair bit
>> of effort to get growing will be consumed by the ravinous little
>> Buenos Aires ;)
<snip>
>
> Get your plants pearling even more!! They'll suck out the ammonia like
> there's no tomorrow. Or starve them of NO3 and they'll probably go for
> the N in the NH3/NH4+. Or/and increase your light intensity and get
> that lonely clump of algae on your side temporarily.
>
> Nikki


AFAIK, plants will most readily consume the most basic NH3/4 first. When
there is none, they then consume the slightly more difficult NO2 and then
when there is no NO2, they go after NO3. Planted tanks with zero NO3
will not have a perceptible whiff of NO2 or NH3/4.

Buenos Aires Tetras (BATs) are IMNSHO PITAs. They make for a good
species tank, perhaps with a ground crew, but mixing them with other
mid-water fish is a PITA. Try medium mild cichlids (Lemons, Firemouths
etc) as tank-mates, anything big enough to not be annoyed by them, and
even tempered enough not to take a piece out of them, and not big enough
to eat them.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > I think after reading all this and the rest of the threads I think I
might
> > just try adding more plants and eventually some SAEs....Plus I've just
had
> > to move the internal from my main (had twopumps/filters) to my son's new
> > tank to try and save a crisis in his new tank so I want things to settle
> > again - don't want to risk more inbalance...plus he IS PUTTING IN MORE
> > PLANTS....he is watching me type this...LOL
>
> He's on the ball ;) You can't have enough plants IMO. They are wonderful
not
> only as chemical sponges and filters but they look so good. I love it when
> mine pearl - it's sort of satisfying.
>
> I started the 10Gal up again today and seeded it's new dual sponge filter
> with squeezings from my main tank filters (A Resun Magi-700 and a Hailea
> HD1500 internal types) and one real plant ("Pongol" Grass) and a bag of
> gravel from the established tank.
>
> The LFS where I took my water for testing had a sale on so I bought up on
> cheap plastic plants and put them in there and I've adapted a 7W CF lamp
for
> light.
>
> The tank looks good and I left it to clear (this time it's got river sand
as
> the substrate instead of small gravel so it took a few hours to clear) and
> then moved all 5 Buenos Aires Tetras over to it. Quite frankly I don't, at
> this moment, care if the tank has to cycle with them in it or not because
I
> can't bare to see the little buggers nibble one more plants new growth
down
> to it's stalk, chase another fish out of apparent aggression, or nip the
> beautiful long fins of my Lyretails any longer.
>
> Gees! and I thought Serpaes were bad! I can see why this tetra after being
> the most popular went out of vogue. Interestingly they have all lost their
> red finnage in the smaller tank. At least they can chase each other there
> and there is nothing vegetable for them to eat;) I guess when they get
over
> the shock their colour will return.
>
> It's the first time I've felt belligerence towards a species of fish, but
> they **** me, to be honest ;)
>
> Lesson here: don't impulse buy fish ;)
>
> My water tests have my GH at 14ppm and KH at 10ppm, so when I moved the
> little buggers out of the tank, some plants got uprooted and moved trying
to
> net them, so I took the opportunity to do a 30% water change, filter
> maintenance and flow check and I removed the rock I suspect of raising the
> hardness. The remaining rock is a red/brown sandstone-ish type, but it
> doesn't fizz at all with any type of acid placed on it, so I'm confident
> that's not leeching anything major.
>
> I've weighted the wood I took out with the remaining rock, moved some of
the
> plants around to suit the new layout and replaced 30% water consisting of
> 15% Rain water and 15% dechlorinated tap water. It's clear for now and my
> hands came out of the water at least feeling like it was softer than
earlier
> in the day. Plus it's nice to see the wood in the tank again.
>
> I'll test the pH, GH and KH in the afternoon tomorrow (24 hours later) and
> see if it's dropped down to more realistic levels. My pH was high before
> lights on today too - 7.4, so hopefully when I test tomorrow I'll see GH
at
> 8 or so, the KH at 6 or preferably 5 and the pH somewhere between 6.8 and
> 7.2 - fingers crossed. I also reseeded the CO2 generators so that will be
> pumping by morning.
>
> > Hey you guys give great advice and the discussions are brilliant for
> > helping
> > to make an informed decision.....
>
> The more the merrier I say :) All views considered here - advice gleaned,
> and discussions welcomed.
>
> >
> > The only problem is having had to do this with the pumps/filters I now
> > have
> > to wait a bit longer for my Malawi tank - currently all rocks and
nowhere
> > to
> > go :-(
> >
> > I think this is great for a relative beginner like me *grin*
>
> You seem to be doing just fine. I am re-newed to the hobby myself after a
30
> year break. So you can imagine it's all changed quite radically - testing
> anything other than pH was unheard of in the 1970's and you were limited
to
> UGF'd and box corner filters, air pumps and putty and glass aquariums.
>
> It's come such a long way since then it's like Sci-Fi now - and so much
> information and just about anything has a product for it these days ;)
>
> Still, I'm all about making sure that my fish don't suffer first and then
I
> get the delight of the tank after that.
>
> I spent most of this evening just watching my tanks and it was very
peaceful
> and relaxing ;)
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
Glad to hear your tank(s) getting sorted :-)

I know exactly what you mean about impulse buying....being a "newby" that's
what happened with me...and now when I want specific fish I have to be very
careful not to over-stock or cause problems for the ones I have now - I'm
quite amazed at my will power when I go to the LFS and manage to resist. But
it's really not that hard when I know that taking care of the ones I've got
are the priority before any new ones. Definitely want the SAE's but I'm
going to have to carefully consider moving out some of the current residents
(maybe need yet another tank "he, he"). Luckily it's another 3 weeks or so
before the LFS will have some ready to sell (arriving next week
apparently)....so maybe I'll have thought of a solution by then. I'm trying
to be real, real careful to fully research and be selective with the Malawi
tank which still needs water but it's got the rocks/caves set up, and then
that's a new challenge - trying to keep it up without plants - or the bare
minimum if possible - I'll try some and see how they cope.

Got another 7 plants for the tank on top of the ones I put in last week, had
a good scrub and tug at some of the stringier stuff - ended up with a pea
soup for about 30 mins until it cleared!!! Also removed the fakes to make
room for them. Couldn't get any floating plants like suggested but I'll keep
looking. Still haven't decided about the CO2 unit or not yet. Tanks looking
pretty good at the moment but after what I spent on plants the last 7 days I
would rather hope so. I'm pretty sure it won't last once the algae grows
again over the next few days. Mr Pleck seems to be making progress on the
back of the tank and his bit of wood where he has tunnelled out a
house....but it really is too much for him to take on on his own.

Also got some more plants for my son's tank so that's looking pretty good -
plus he very rarely gets algae (not fair).....

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
<snip>

> I'm trying
> to be real, real careful to fully research and be selective with the
> Malawi
> tank which still needs water but it's got the rocks/caves set up, and
> then
> that's a new challenge - trying to keep it up without plants - or the
> bare
> minimum if possible - I'll try some and see how they cope.
<snip>

Gill, the topic of live plants and Malawian (Rift lake) cichlids is full
of erroneous information and worthy of an entirely new thread. I have
had a love/hate relationship with live plants and Rift lake cichlids for
a long time (since my first Iodotropheus sprengerae Rusty cichlid in
1972). If I can offer a few snippets of advice:

1) The tank must be fully planted with a variety of plants *before* a
fish sets fin in there. Psychologically, this makes the plants more like
scenery than salad.

2) Overplant a wide assortment using a range of different leaf
structures. Thick wide leaves (Amazon, Anubius), very thin leaves (Java
moss, Cabomba, Hornwort) and unsavoury leaves (Java Ferns, Onion plant)
have a very good chance of surviving if their environment is not
destroyed (root base), so protect the roots from being dug up. Plants
like Vals, Crypts, and small Echinodoras are more like salad to the fish
which will eat them.

3) There is a tremendous range of fish in Lake Malawi (and/or Tanganyika
and Victoria), many of whom will not be hard on plants (carnivores,
insectivores) and others who are lawn-mowers, so do your research very
carefully. Some good choices might be from the Aulonocara, Cyphotilapia,
Labidochromis, Julidochromis, Lamprologus, and bad choices might come
from the Pseudotropheus, Haplochromis, Melanochromis and Labeotropheus,
but I am generalising and the individual species should be researched.
Note also their eventual size and territorial requirements.

4) Besides eating them, or accidentally uprooting them, cichlids will
destroy plants because they are in their line of sight, or they are
bored, or they are stressed. Keeping a light load of cichlids in a
fairly harmonious arrangement will increase your gardening chances.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> Buenos Aires Tetras (BATs) are IMNSHO PITAs. They make for a good species
> tank, perhaps with a ground crew, but mixing them with other mid-water
> fish is a PITA. Try medium mild cichlids (Lemons, Firemouths etc) as
> tank-mates, anything big enough to not be annoyed by them, and even
> tempered enough not to take a piece out of them, and not big enough to eat
> them.

Well they are alone in 10 gal tank so they can do their thing until I get
the $$'s to get a couple of bigger tank mates - I've always wanted a pair of
Electric Yellows - would they be okay do you think?

Ta,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .


> Glad to hear your tank(s) getting sorted :-)

Ta, the hardness and pH have dropped today -so I am a little relieved.
>
> I know exactly what you mean about impulse buying....being a "newby"
> that's
> what happened with me...and now when I want specific fish I have to be
> very
> careful not to over-stock or cause problems for the ones I have now - I'm
> quite amazed at my will power when I go to the LFS and manage to resist.
> But
> it's really not that hard when I know that taking care of the ones I've
> got
> are the priority before any new ones.

Yes, I agree. I am learning this "lesson". Something that's apparent to me
on contemplating the foolishness of the act (I should know better at the
time) is that a fish in a shop display is meant to grab your attention, and
frequently their behaviour isn't the same in the shop as it is in your tank.

You are absolutely correct about the consideration of your established tank
at home while you are oggling at desirables in the shop.

I've also discovered that buying for a purpose is better than buying for
display ;)

> Definitely want the SAE's but I'm
> going to have to carefully consider moving out some of the current
> residents
> (maybe need yet another tank "he, he"). Luckily it's another 3 weeks or so
> before the LFS will have some ready to sell (arriving next week
> apparently)....so maybe I'll have thought of a solution by then. I'm
> trying
> to be real, real careful to fully research and be selective with the
> Malawi
> tank which still needs water but it's got the rocks/caves set up, and then
> that's a new challenge - trying to keep it up without plants - or the bare
> minimum if possible - I'll try some and see how they cope.

If I can give you some advice on feeding SAEs in the absense of real stuff,
it would be to get some algae wafers and feed them to them about 1 hour
before lights out - after the Cichlids have had their fill.

>
> Got another 7 plants for the tank on top of the ones I put in last week,
> had
> a good scrub and tug at some of the stringier stuff - ended up with a pea
> soup for about 30 mins until it cleared!!! Also removed the fakes to make
> room for them. Couldn't get any floating plants like suggested but I'll
> keep
> looking. Still haven't decided about the CO2 unit or not yet. Tanks
> looking
> pretty good at the moment but after what I spent on plants the last 7 days
> I
> would rather hope so. I'm pretty sure it won't last once the algae grows
> again over the next few days. Mr Pleck seems to be making progress on the
> back of the tank and his bit of wood where he has tunnelled out a
> house....but it really is too much for him to take on on his own.

I use Mystery Snail power and some Swordtails for stuff the SAE's miss ;)

>
> Also got some more plants for my son's tank so that's looking pretty
> good -
> plus he very rarely gets algae (not fair).....

No - it's just a different tank. Tanks are like people - all different and
all capable of unique things ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>

[Elaine T]

Ozdude wrote:
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Buenos Aires Tetras (BATs) are IMNSHO PITAs. They make for a good species
>>tank, perhaps with a ground crew, but mixing them with other mid-water
>>fish is a PITA. Try medium mild cichlids (Lemons, Firemouths etc) as
>>tank-mates, anything big enough to not be annoyed by them, and even
>>tempered enough not to take a piece out of them, and not big enough to eat
>>them.
>
>
> Well they are alone in 10 gal tank so they can do their thing until I get
> the $$'s to get a couple of bigger tank mates - I've always wanted a pair of
> Electric Yellows - would they be okay do you think?
>
> Ta,
>
> Oz
>
First, you don't get a pair - you need more females than males. Second,
Labidochromis caeruleus can grow to 4" so they would outgrow a 10
gallon tank. That WOULD make a cool display in a 30 gal, though.

Waitaminute - your Buenos Aires tetras can grow to 3". Didn't you say
you have 5? Methinks that 10 gallon is going to be pretty crowded in a
few months from tetras alone.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> Ozdude wrote:
>> "NetMax" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Buenos Aires Tetras (BATs) are IMNSHO PITAs. They make for a good
>>>species tank, perhaps with a ground crew, but mixing them with other
>>>mid-water fish is a PITA. Try medium mild cichlids (Lemons,
>>>Firemouths etc) as tank-mates, anything big enough to not be annoyed
>>>by them, and even tempered enough not to take a piece out of them, and
>>>not big enough to eat them.
>>
>>
>> Well they are alone in 10 gal tank so they can do their thing until I
>> get the $$'s to get a couple of bigger tank mates - I've always wanted
>> a pair of Electric Yellows - would they be okay do you think?
>>
>> Ta,
>>
>> Oz
>>
> First, you don't get a pair - you need more females than males.
> Second, Labidochromis caeruleus can grow to 4" so they would outgrow a
> 10 gallon tank. That WOULD make a cool display in a 30 gal, though.
>
> Waitaminute - your Buenos Aires tetras can grow to 3". Didn't you say
> you have 5? Methinks that 10 gallon is going to be pretty crowded in a
> few months from tetras alone.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Regarding Electric yellows, there is more than one fish by that name.
Besides the caeruleus which Elaine already covered, there is one in the
Aulonocara? group (Electric Yellow Peacock?). Like the caeruleus,
compatible with the BATs, but originate from higher pH water than the
waters around Brazil ;~). A peacock/BAT combination would require a 55g,
while the mbuna/BAT could get by in a 45g. Only BATs would require the
30g as indicated (a 30g long, 36" would be best).

*warning* the following is intended for mature audiences and is not
suitable for all ages

If you want to rid yourself of BATs, and no pet shop is willing to take
them, and you want to keep all your friends ;~), then another option is
to keep them with Oscars. They will 'co-exist', for possibly weeks or
months, giving the Oscars much needed exercise.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> First, you don't get a pair - you need more females than males. Second,
> Labidochromis caeruleus can grow to 4" so they would outgrow a 10 gallon
> tank. That WOULD make a cool display in a 30 gal, though.
>
> Waitaminute - your Buenos Aires tetras can grow to 3". Didn't you say you
> have 5? Methinks that 10 gallon is going to be pretty crowded in a few
> months from tetras alone.

Oh, crickey! You are right - I keep forgetting that fish do grow. I guess
they wll be all on their own then ;)

I can see another tank coming ;)

I knew I was catching MTS. I think the next one will be a Cichlid Tank - or
perhaps even Discus.

I'd better get a job first so I can afford the electricty bills for all of
these tanks ;)

Once again, thanks for the heads-up.

Oz


--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> If you want to rid yourself of BATs, and no pet shop is willing to take
> them, and you want to keep all your friends ;~), then another option is to
> keep them with Oscars. They will 'co-exist', for possibly weeks or
> months, giving the Oscars much needed exercise.

Hehe! I think, to save some money, chemistry and overcrowding issues I'll
just leave 5 BATS in the tank with their plastic plants and sandy bottom.
They have mostly regained their red finnage and they are eating like
ravinous little pigs today. It's good though - I see flashes of silver and
red while I'm watching TV - I'm sure the big tank's inhabitants can see them
in the other tank across the room and are very glad they are as far away
from them as possible;)

Oh, well - many lessons learnt these last two days - most importantly -
NEVER impulse buy fish ;)

I should have been suspicious when they were the only species in the shop
tank and with no plants. I have also been too busy concentrating on the
Congo Tetra in my research of species.

Elaine and yourself have also alerted me to the fact that BATs grow to 3",
so that's going to be 15" of fish in a 10GAL tank, and it isn't a long
tank - it's square. Still they have them in a globe shaped display tank at
the front of the shop where I bought them and they seem to be fine swimming
around and around that digusting cruel vessel - I thought round fish bowls
and the like were illegal in Australia after submissions by the RSPCA?

Why do I feel MTS feelings right now :)

Oz


--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "NetMax" > Spake Unto All:

>If you want to rid yourself of BATs, and no pet shop is willing to take
>them, and you want to keep all your friends ;~), then another option is
>to keep them with Oscars. They will 'co-exist', for possibly weeks or
>months, giving the Oscars much needed exercise.

Seems to me malawi or central-american cichlid tanks (with e.g.
convicts) would be pretty ideal for BAT's. Either the cichlid eat the
BATs, or they coexist, and either way is a win as there wont be any
plants for the BATs to destroy and the BATs are robust enough to
handle medium sized cichlids.

After all, they're not truly evil fish. Unlike tiger barbs and chinese
algae eaters I feel there is a place for them in aquaristics - just
not in planted community tanks.

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> If you want to rid yourself of BATs, and no pet shop is willing to
>> take them, and you want to keep all your friends ;~), then another
>> option is to keep them with Oscars. They will 'co-exist', for
>> possibly weeks or months, giving the Oscars much needed exercise.
>
> Hehe! I think, to save some money, chemistry and overcrowding issues
> I'll just leave 5 BATS in the tank with their plastic plants and sandy
> bottom. They have mostly regained their red finnage and they are eating
> like ravinous little pigs today. It's good though - I see flashes of
> silver and red while I'm watching TV - I'm sure the big tank's
> inhabitants can see them in the other tank across the room and are very
> glad they are as far away from them as possible;)
>
> Oh, well - many lessons learnt these last two days - most importantly -
> NEVER impulse buy fish ;)
>
> I should have been suspicious when they were the only species in the
> shop tank and with no plants. I have also been too busy concentrating
> on the Congo Tetra in my research of species.
>
> Elaine and yourself have also alerted me to the fact that BATs grow to
> 3", so that's going to be 15" of fish in a 10GAL tank, and it isn't a
> long tank - it's square. Still they have them in a globe shaped display
> tank at the front of the shop where I bought them and they seem to be
> fine swimming around and around that digusting cruel vessel - I thought
> round fish bowls and the like were illegal in Australia after
> submissions by the RSPCA?
>
> Why do I feel MTS feelings right now :)
>
> Oz


If you are like me, you will either get rid of the unwanted fish or build
a bio-tope around them. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground
;~). Incidentally, Mike mentioned that they are not good with plants,
but I've had no experience with them in planted tanks. If I was to
guess, I would have said that they would mostly ignore the plants.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
...

> After all, they're not truly evil fish. Unlike tiger barbs and chinese
> algae eaters I feel there is a place for them in aquaristics - just
> not in planted community tanks.

I can see they would be good in a species tank, perhaps with bigger tetras
like the Congo and maybe even Hatchet Fish, but I don't think just for being
themselves they should be subjected to predators just because I made the
mistake;)

I meant to state in a previous post that my belligerence towards these fish
isn't the fishes fault at all - it's mine - completely my doing.

They are behaving completely normally, and it is I who did the "bad thing" -
my thinking and actions.

Well at least I won't do that ever again - impulse buying living creatures
without researching them is a no no for me as of this event ;)

You live and learn ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .

> If you are like me, you will either get rid of the unwanted fish or build
> a bio-tope around them. There doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground
> ;~). Incidentally, Mike mentioned that they are not good with plants, but
> I've had no experience with them in planted tanks. If I was to guess, I
> would have said that they would mostly ignore the plants.

Well, they do have a sort of biotope around them now in the 10GAL. The
lighting is subdued, the gravel is dark and mixed with river sand and they
have quite a few plastic plants and a plastic rock. The tank actually looks
better than I thought and I am over the moon with the dual sponge filter I
am using. It cleared the milky water (from the substrate particulates, not
bacteria) in less than 72 hours. And currently the water is beautifully
clear and healthy for tetras.

I tested the water today (see my Sad Day post for parameters) and it's
perfect for Tetras - they may even breed in the tank they are now in if the
pH goes any lower, but I'm hoping if they do, they eat the eggs - I don't
want any more of this fish ;).

They certainly didn't ignore my plants, in fact they have a preference, in
my experience, for the new leaves of Wisteria, Ambula and Stricta. All
nibbled to the stalk, but all sprouting again today.

The general advice about them and plants out there, suggests if you are
going to use real plants then they should ideally be the fast growing types,
which is a sort of conundrum really because to grow plants fast you need
lots of light first, so even if you had floating things like Hornwort to
give the fish cover the lower stem plants wouldn't receive the required
light.

I believe also they won't touch Val. - they didn't touch mine and they
certainly aren't touching the Pongol Grass in the current tank they are in.

Everything I read about them seems to be right though - fin nipping, greedy,
plant eating little piranahs! :)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Ozdude" > Spake Unto All:

>I believe also they won't touch Val. - they didn't touch mine and they
>certainly aren't touching the Pongol Grass in the current tank they are in.

Same here. Vals go unmolested (so far, anyway).

>Everything I read about them seems to be right though - fin nipping, greedy,
>plant eating little piranahs! :)

Seems like it, yeah. Big & boisterous, but not truly bad, and quite
attractive. As I said, I think they'd be good as dithers for an
mbuna/convict/firemouth etc medium sized cichlids-tank.

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mean_Chlorine" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> After all, they're not truly evil fish. Unlike tiger barbs and chinese
>> algae eaters I feel there is a place for them in aquaristics - just
>> not in planted community tanks.
>
> I can see they would be good in a species tank, perhaps with bigger
> tetras like the Congo and maybe even Hatchet Fish, but I don't think
> just for being themselves they should be subjected to predators just
> because I made the mistake;)
>
> I meant to state in a previous post that my belligerence towards these
> fish isn't the fishes fault at all - it's mine - completely my doing.
>
> They are behaving completely normally, and it is I who did the "bad
> thing" - my thinking and actions.
>
> Well at least I won't do that ever again - impulse buying living
> creatures without researching them is a no no for me as of this event
> ;)
>
> You live and learn ;)
>
> Oz


I have to admit to doing my share of impulse buying. Sometimes you see
some beautiful specimens, and you have some vague ideas of the
requirements from their closest relatives. Bring them home to a bare
tank (cover and filter) and then start researching and setting up a new
tank for them. I get away with it by having several tanks available, but
I know I should research first, not after (we can't be saints all the
time, when opportunity knocks... ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> I have to admit to doing my share of impulse buying. Sometimes you see
> some beautiful specimens, and you have some vague ideas of the
> requirements from their closest relatives. Bring them home to a bare tank
> (cover and filter) and then start researching and setting up a new tank
> for them. I get away with it by having several tanks available, but I
> know I should research first, not after (we can't be saints all the time,
> when opportunity knocks... ;~).

Ain't that the truth? I spotted a 100L cube tank today at the LFS, so I can
safely say I am catching MTS - but even so, careful species consideration
will be made before stocking it, if I get it.

At least I won't have to worry about buying real plants for it - mine are
growing so fast I am going to have excess soon.

I am slightly attracted to Cichlids, Angels and Discus, but I think I should
get my chemistry and water management understood and under control before I
contemplate any new additions.

As a side note about my current water problems (previous post) - I just
remembered that the LFS lady did tell me today when were discussing the
issues, that lots of her customers have been in over the last week claiming
their fish are just dying off - she says it's the tap water and that the TDS
levels are all over the place, and on top of that she supects there are
elevated levels of metals in it.

There isn't a lot we can do it seems, as the sources will be changing all
the time until the dams fill up, which is a way off yet. I dislike droughts
because they cause unstable water out of the tap as the water company
scrapes for every gallon they can get to maintain supply.

I can't afford a water purifier at this point in time, so I am just going to
have to watch it I think.

I think this also demonstrates another issue about impulse buying too - most
LFS's have huge shop wide filtration systems which aren't subject as
frequently as home tanks are, to water quality variations, so I'm starting
to think that patience isn't just the solution to impulse buying, but
knowledge of source water, target water and species are pretty important
before you part with your hard earned cash ;) Informed is happy IMO :)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
<snip>
>
> I think this also demonstrates another issue about impulse buying too -
> most LFS's have huge shop wide filtration systems which aren't subject
> as frequently as home tanks are, to water quality variations, so I'm
> starting to think that patience isn't just the solution to impulse
> buying, but knowledge of source water, target water and species are
> pretty important before you part with your hard earned cash ;) Informed
> is happy IMO :)
>
> Oz


Yup, this is where the hobby balloons out to include lots of technical
sciences, but in a fun way. You're not the first to encounter an
unstable water supply. Other than RO filtering, the other low tech
solution is to have BIG tanks with light fish loads. Your water change
quantity is a function of fish-load, so smaller water changes in large
tanks are much less susceptible to water parameter variations and toxins.
--
www.NetMax.tk