Precautions for higher-than-recommended Goldfish density

[Gfishery]

My Red Cap Oranda (Reagan) was chasing and scaring my Orange Fantail (Carter) initially.
I really didn't want to, but my wife insisted on getting another Orange Fantail (Clinton) to create a "balance" in the tank.
Now Clinton chases Reagan around sometimes, and Carter is much braver now.
(Any similarity of my fish names to the names of anyone you might know is purely coincidental)

I have a WalMart basic 10 gallon tank kit ($30), which includes Tetra's Whisper 5-15 power filter and some other accessories.

I am doing daily 0.5 gallon water changes with water treated with TetraAqua's AquaSafe and EasyBalance (with Nitraban).
And I've got one of those SeaChem AmmoniaAlert monitors in my tank.

If my wife insists on getting another Goldfish (Bush?), I WILL get a bigger tank.
In the meantime, is there anything I should do or look out for, given the higher-than-recommended fish density in my tank?
(still lower density compared to the LFS though)

[bettasngoldfish]

The filtration system at the lfs is more likely much better than what
you have at home. There is a continuos supply of fresh water being
pumped into the tanks at all times. You will not be able to do the
same at home with any tank. Putting four goldfish in a ten gallon
tank not knowing any better is one thing but when you know better, well
that's just down right cruel. If your wife insists on adding another
fish then maybe you should bring the check book with you and purchase
a fifty five gallon tank while your there. Then you could move the
fish from the ten gallon to the fifty five and use the ten gallon as a
quarantine for the new fish. BTW, you should be using a power filter
rated for double the size tank you are using it on in a goldfish tank.
I would suggest adding a second power filter and adding at least one
air stone. Good luck to you.

[Starfish]

By the way....its 1 GOLDFISH per 10 GALLONS...
You are 2 fish overstocked....even if they are tiny little fish...they grow
and produce that much waste that they will end up dieing an slow and
painfull death...

For your new tank...to house 4 fush humanely you would need a 50 gallon
tank.
If you dont believe me, ask anyone else here...Im sure they can back me up!

Anyways..good luck with the fish
"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
> My Red Cap Oranda (Reagan) was chasing and scaring my Orange Fantail
> (Carter) initially.
> I really didn't want to, but my wife insisted on getting another Orange
> Fantail (Clinton) to create a "balance" in the tank.
> Now Clinton chases Reagan around sometimes, and Carter is much braver now.
> (Any similarity of my fish names to the names of anyone you might know is
> purely coincidental)
>
> I have a WalMart basic 10 gallon tank kit ($30), which includes Tetra's
> Whisper 5-15 power filter and some other accessories.
>
> I am doing daily 0.5 gallon water changes with water treated with
> TetraAqua's AquaSafe and EasyBalance (with Nitraban).
> And I've got one of those SeaChem AmmoniaAlert monitors in my tank.
>
> If my wife insists on getting another Goldfish (Bush?), I WILL get a
> bigger tank.
> In the meantime, is there anything I should do or look out for, given the
> higher-than-recommended fish density in my tank?
> (still lower density compared to the LFS though)
>
>
>

[Gfishery]

"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message ps.com...
> The filtration system at the lfs is more likely much better than what
> you have at home. There is a continuos supply of fresh water being
> pumped into the tanks at all times. You will not be able to do the
> same at home with any tank. Putting four goldfish in a ten gallon
> tank not knowing any better is one thing but when you know better, well
> that's just down right cruel. If your wife insists on adding another
> fish then maybe you should bring the check book with you and purchase
> a fifty five gallon tank while your there. Then you could move the
> fish from the ten gallon to the fifty five and use the ten gallon as a
> quarantine for the new fish. BTW, you should be using a power filter
> rated for double the size tank you are using it on in a goldfish tank.
> I would suggest adding a second power filter and adding at least one
> air stone. Good luck to you.

There's 3 small goldfish in the ten gallon tank now, not 4.
The plan was to have 2, until we found the Oranda was harassing the Fantail.
So much for mixing goldfish.

The LFS employee said 3 was about the max we shoud have in our 10 gallon tank.
Why would a LFS employee suggest something that is downright cruel?
The consensus here appears to be 10 gallons per goldfish, and that's why I didn't want to get the third.
So if we get another goldfish, I will be getting at least a 40 gallon (possibly larger) tank.

And I think keeping 1 lonely goldfish in a 10 gallon tank is very cruel too.
Goldfish are not bettas.
So why do they even sell 10 gallon tanks for goldfish?
The box my tank came in indicated that it was OK for goldfish.
And they have smaller ones for goldfish too.

My current Whisper filter is creating a noticeable current.
And this is not a model where the flow can be controlled.
Anyone else with a Whisper 5-15 filter notice this?
Won't increasing the flow rate by adding a second power filter create a stronger current for the fish?
If the current filter won't suffice for 3 goldfish, I'll upgrade the tank size & filter rather than increase the water current for
the fish.

[Ed VanDyke]

I think the "Goldfish Bowl" has given all of society a horrible opinion on
what it takes for these messy creatures to survive.
You should upgrade in stages. First get the larger tank. (even a 20 or 30
gal, keep one fish in the 10 gal) Once the water is aged, move some fish
into it. Stay on top of water changes. A couple paydays later, buy the
filter. As time goes on you can add aerator, decorations, etc. Their new,
larger home won't be ideal at first, but it's better than where they are
now.

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
>
> "bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> The filtration system at the lfs is more likely much better than what
>> you have at home. There is a continuos supply of fresh water being
>> pumped into the tanks at all times. You will not be able to do the
>> same at home with any tank. Putting four goldfish in a ten gallon
>> tank not knowing any better is one thing but when you know better, well
>> that's just down right cruel. If your wife insists on adding another
>> fish then maybe you should bring the check book with you and purchase
>> a fifty five gallon tank while your there. Then you could move the
>> fish from the ten gallon to the fifty five and use the ten gallon as a
>> quarantine for the new fish. BTW, you should be using a power filter
>> rated for double the size tank you are using it on in a goldfish tank.
>> I would suggest adding a second power filter and adding at least one
>> air stone. Good luck to you.
>
> There's 3 small goldfish in the ten gallon tank now, not 4.
> The plan was to have 2, until we found the Oranda was harassing the
> Fantail.
> So much for mixing goldfish.
>
> The LFS employee said 3 was about the max we shoud have in our 10 gallon
> tank.
> Why would a LFS employee suggest something that is downright cruel?
> The consensus here appears to be 10 gallons per goldfish, and that's why I
> didn't want to get the third.
> So if we get another goldfish, I will be getting at least a 40 gallon
> (possibly larger) tank.
>
> And I think keeping 1 lonely goldfish in a 10 gallon tank is very cruel
> too.
> Goldfish are not bettas.
> So why do they even sell 10 gallon tanks for goldfish?
> The box my tank came in indicated that it was OK for goldfish.
> And they have smaller ones for goldfish too.
>
> My current Whisper filter is creating a noticeable current.
> And this is not a model where the flow can be controlled.
> Anyone else with a Whisper 5-15 filter notice this?
> Won't increasing the flow rate by adding a second power filter create a
> stronger current for the fish?
> If the current filter won't suffice for 3 goldfish, I'll upgrade the tank
> size & filter rather than increase the water current for
> the fish.
>
>

[Katra]

In article >,
"Gfishery" > wrote:

> "bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> > The filtration system at the lfs is more likely much better than what
> > you have at home. There is a continuos supply of fresh water being
> > pumped into the tanks at all times. You will not be able to do the
> > same at home with any tank. Putting four goldfish in a ten gallon
> > tank not knowing any better is one thing but when you know better, well
> > that's just down right cruel. If your wife insists on adding another
> > fish then maybe you should bring the check book with you and purchase
> > a fifty five gallon tank while your there. Then you could move the
> > fish from the ten gallon to the fifty five and use the ten gallon as a
> > quarantine for the new fish. BTW, you should be using a power filter
> > rated for double the size tank you are using it on in a goldfish tank.
> > I would suggest adding a second power filter and adding at least one
> > air stone. Good luck to you.
>
> There's 3 small goldfish in the ten gallon tank now, not 4.
> The plan was to have 2, until we found the Oranda was harassing the Fantail.
> So much for mixing goldfish.
>
> The LFS employee said 3 was about the max we shoud have in our 10 gallon
> tank.
> Why would a LFS employee suggest something that is downright cruel?
> The consensus here appears to be 10 gallons per goldfish, and that's why I
> didn't want to get the third.
> So if we get another goldfish, I will be getting at least a 40 gallon
> (possibly larger) tank.
>
> And I think keeping 1 lonely goldfish in a 10 gallon tank is very cruel too.
> Goldfish are not bettas.
> So why do they even sell 10 gallon tanks for goldfish?
> The box my tank came in indicated that it was OK for goldfish.
> And they have smaller ones for goldfish too.
>
> My current Whisper filter is creating a noticeable current.
> And this is not a model where the flow can be controlled.
> Anyone else with a Whisper 5-15 filter notice this?
> Won't increasing the flow rate by adding a second power filter create a
> stronger current for the fish?
> If the current filter won't suffice for 3 goldfish, I'll upgrade the tank
> size & filter rather than increase the water current for
> the fish.
>
>

I don't think current is an issue... ;-)

As for lfs's recommending 3 in a 10 gallon tank, well, I think you
already know the answer. <G> Goldfish are cheap and expendible. It's ok
to have them die and replace them every year as they get too big for the
tank, right? <tongue lodged firmly in cheek here...>.

But, I mention the current not being an issue because I've noted that
goldfish do just fine in the river here when people dump them, as long
as they can avoid predation.

While snorkeling once, my mom and I captured a HUGE goldfish! We did not
weigh it, but I'd estimate it weighed at least 5 lbs. We put in in a 10
gallon tank for a few hours just to hold it while we called around to
see if anyone wanted it! It filled the tank nearly from end to end and
could not turn around. We moved it into a large rubbermaid container.

Somehow I don't think that "10 gallons per goldfish" applied to this
one. <lol>

The local LFS was interested but did not have a container large enough
to keep it in. Said the fish was worth at least $75.00.

Not wishing to risk the fishes life, we kept it overnight only to see if
anyone wanted it, (it really did not belong in the river) but we ended
up re-releasing it. We should have euthanized it, but just could not
bring ourselves to do so. :-(

It was too beautiful.

Anyway, the current in the local river is quite strong, and the goldfish
do fine!

--
K.

Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

There is no need to change the world. All we have to do is toilet train the world and we'll never have to change it again. -- Swami Beyondanada

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katraatcenturyteldotnet>,,<

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra

[Starfish]

The only reason why LFS's tell you that its OK to have more than 1 gf per 10
gallons is because they know they will make more money from you if the fish
die....when i first started to keep goldfish (about 4 years ago) A large pet
shop (In another town) sold me and my 2 roommates 2 fantails and a shubunkin
of 1 inch in length...and guess what tank they gave us....A 15 LITRE BLOODY
TANK!!!!! Hows that for absolutely cruel....I argued with the biatch in the
shop that it was cruel and inhumane and she didnt want to hear any or my
"rot" as she put it.....I called the RSPCA....I showed her who was talking
"rot"!!!)
"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
>
> "bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> The filtration system at the lfs is more likely much better than what
>> you have at home. There is a continuos supply of fresh water being
>> pumped into the tanks at all times. You will not be able to do the
>> same at home with any tank. Putting four goldfish in a ten gallon
>> tank not knowing any better is one thing but when you know better, well
>> that's just down right cruel. If your wife insists on adding another
>> fish then maybe you should bring the check book with you and purchase
>> a fifty five gallon tank while your there. Then you could move the
>> fish from the ten gallon to the fifty five and use the ten gallon as a
>> quarantine for the new fish. BTW, you should be using a power filter
>> rated for double the size tank you are using it on in a goldfish tank.
>> I would suggest adding a second power filter and adding at least one
>> air stone. Good luck to you.
>
> There's 3 small goldfish in the ten gallon tank now, not 4.
> The plan was to have 2, until we found the Oranda was harassing the
> Fantail.
> So much for mixing goldfish.
>
> The LFS employee said 3 was about the max we shoud have in our 10 gallon
> tank.
> Why would a LFS employee suggest something that is downright cruel?
> The consensus here appears to be 10 gallons per goldfish, and that's why I
> didn't want to get the third.
> So if we get another goldfish, I will be getting at least a 40 gallon
> (possibly larger) tank.
>
> And I think keeping 1 lonely goldfish in a 10 gallon tank is very cruel
> too.
> Goldfish are not bettas.
> So why do they even sell 10 gallon tanks for goldfish?
> The box my tank came in indicated that it was OK for goldfish.
> And they have smaller ones for goldfish too.
>
> My current Whisper filter is creating a noticeable current.
> And this is not a model where the flow can be controlled.
> Anyone else with a Whisper 5-15 filter notice this?
> Won't increasing the flow rate by adding a second power filter create a
> stronger current for the fish?
> If the current filter won't suffice for 3 goldfish, I'll upgrade the tank
> size & filter rather than increase the water current for
> the fish.
>
>

[Geezer From The Freezer]

As everyone has pointed out, you are vastly overstocked. I would suggest
increasing
your water change to about 1 gallon a day minimum in the short term.

I once asked a fish shop assistance "what type of goldfish is that?"
his reply was "just a goldfish" - it was actually a Moor, but he didn't
know the type. Many LFS are business people and don't actually care for
the fish they are selling.

[Gfishery]

"Katra" > wrote in message ...
>
> I don't think current is an issue... ;-)

When will they get a chance to rest?
They have to keep swimming to counter the water current at all times?

[Gfishery]

"Ed VanDyke" > wrote in message ...
> I think the "Goldfish Bowl" has given all of society a horrible opinion on
> what it takes for these messy creatures to survive.
> You should upgrade in stages. First get the larger tank. (even a 20 or 30
> gal, keep one fish in the 10 gal) Once the water is aged, move some fish
> into it. Stay on top of water changes. A couple paydays later, buy the
> filter. As time goes on you can add aerator, decorations, etc. Their new,
> larger home won't be ideal at first, but it's better than where they are
> now.

The picture on the box my tank came in shows 3 black and 3 orange goldfish in a 10 gallon tank.
Talk about misleading advertising!

I'll get a proper sized tank for the 2 fantails.
There is a good chance I will end up giving away the Oranda.
It is too aggressive with the food for the fantails to compete.

Does anyone build an aerator with the water filter?
I've seen heaters built into water filters.

[Gfishery]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message ...
> As everyone has pointed out, you are vastly overstocked. I would suggest
> increasing
> your water change to about 1 gallon a day minimum in the short term.

Will do.
I also age the water for a few days after it has been treated with AquaSafe and EasyBalance before using it.

I can undertsand the need for clean, fresh water.
(Presently testing with AmmoniaAlert. And I'll get a Ph/Nitrite/Nitrate test kit.)

I can understand the need for dissolved oxygen in the water.
(If the fish are not coming up for air, would that be sufficient to indicate enough oxygen is in the water?)

I can understand the need for a decent amout of space for the fish to swim in.
(more space is better, but would a goldfish appreciate a 50 gallon tank more than a 20 gallon tank?)
I'm no fish, but I think a goldfish would be happier with a partner in a 20 gallon tank than being all alone in a 50 gallon tank.
And I think 2 fantails in a 20 gallon tank is less stress on the fish than 2 fantails and an aggressive oranda in a 40 gallon tank.
I wish these fish could speak.

[Katra]

In article >,
"Gfishery" > wrote:

> "Katra" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I don't think current is an issue... ;-)
>
> When will they get a chance to rest?
> They have to keep swimming to counter the water current at all times?
>
>

Like I said, it never seemed to bother the fish in the river....

I s'pose you could put in a sheltered area built from decorations and
plants?
--
K.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Gfishery wrote:

> The picture on the box my tank came in shows 3 black and 3 orange goldfish in a 10 gallon tank.
> Talk about misleading advertising!

Not fair is it? I see the BiOrbs by Reef One advertising 3-4 goldfish in a 30L
tank(bowl)
on their box! They flattley refuse to accept that 1 goldfish in 7.5 litres is a
problem.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Actually the more space you have the better it is for you too. Bigger tanks
are easier to maintain.

More space may stop your aggresive oranda from being so aggresive. If you
see him bullying, stick a chopstick into the water and chase him with it,
you may be able to condition him out of being a bully.

[2pods]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>> More space may stop your aggresive oranda from being so aggresive. If you
> see him bullying, stick a chopstick into the water and chase him with it,
> you may be able to condition him out of being a bully.

Will somebody come and clear the diet coke from my monitor ?
That just struck me as so funny :-)

"Oi, come 'ere ya wee bugger.."
Oranda streaks off s******ing to itself having chewed chopstick in half.

Peter

[Geezer From The Freezer]

2pods wrote:
>
> "Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> More space may stop your aggresive oranda from being so aggresive. If you
> > see him bullying, stick a chopstick into the water and chase him with it,
> > you may be able to condition him out of being a bully.
>
> Will somebody come and clear the diet coke from my monitor ?
> That just struck me as so funny :-)
>
> "Oi, come 'ere ya wee bugger.."
> Oranda streaks off s******ing to itself having chewed chopstick in half.
>
> Peter

It might even try that if you've got noodles on the end ;) I had to do something
similar with one of my moors (I used my hand) and now she no longer bullies
thats right, it was a she :D

[2pods]

> It might even try that if you've got noodles on the end ;) I had to do
> something
> similar with one of my moors (I used my hand) and now she no longer
> bullies
> thats right, it was a she :D

I'm getting something similar with one of my 4 adult angels.
It might be pre-breeding as one of them keeps pushing the other two back to
the other end of the tank with lots of posturing and lip locking.

Meanwhile, what looks to be the chosen one (victim ?), stays put and looks
smug.

Peter

[Larry Blanchard]

In article >, says...
> Does anyone build an aerator with the water filter?
> I've seen heaters built into water filters.
>
>
The Duetto submersible filters have an optional aerator, but I haven't
tried mine.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Gunther]

In article >, says...
> In article >, says...
> > Does anyone build an aerator with the water filter?
> > I've seen heaters built into water filters.
> >
> >
> The Duetto submersible filters have an optional aerator, but I haven't
> tried mine.

I have, and IIRC, besides being quite noisy, it drastically reduces the
throughput of the filter. I found that the classic airpump+stone was
a better solution for me.

[sophie]

In message >, Larry Blanchard
> writes
>In article >, says...
>> Does anyone build an aerator with the water filter?
>> I've seen heaters built into water filters.
>>
>>
>The Duetto submersible filters have an optional aerator, but I haven't
>tried mine.

I've got an eheim aquaball and you can angle the output pretty much
anywhere you like; I have mine pointing towards the surface so that it
creates a fair amount of agitation/aeration. It's a LOT quieter than an
airpump, there's just a little water noise.
>

--
sophie

[Kay]

> I've got an eheim aquaball and you can angle the output pretty much
> anywhere you like; I have mine pointing towards the surface so that it
> creates a fair amount of agitation/aeration. It's a LOT quieter than an
> airpump, there's just a little water noise.
>
>>
>

Now that sounds interesting!

Kay

[sophie]

In message >, Kay
> writes
>
>> I've got an eheim aquaball and you can angle the output pretty much
>>anywhere you like; I have mine pointing towards the surface so that it
>>creates a fair amount of agitation/aeration. It's a LOT quieter than
>>an airpump, there's just a little water noise.
>>
>>>
>>
>
>Now that sounds interesting!

I like it as a filter all round, you can also add a limited amount of
air to the output via a little tube that sticks out the top, but as you
have to reduce the flow to do this I don't use that option.
I think that as with the Fluval+ series (the only other filter I've
used...) you don't get absolutely "polished" water but as a biological
and gross mechanical filter they're both good, or have been for me. The
moveable "ball" bit was the thing that sold the eheim to me - that and
the appearance; it's pretty inconspicuous in the aquarium as internal
filters go.
--
sophie

[Angrie.Woman]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Kay
> > writes
>>
>>
>
> I like it as a filter all round, you can also add a limited amount of air
> to the output via a little tube that sticks out the top, but as you have
> to reduce the flow to do this I don't use that option.
> I think that as with the Fluval+ series (the only other filter I've
> used...) you don't get absolutely "polished" water but as a biological and
> gross mechanical filter they're both good, or have been for me. The
> moveable "ball" bit was the thing that sold the eheim to me - that and the
> appearance; it's pretty inconspicuous in the aquarium as internal filters
> go.
> --
> sophie

I just looked at up on-line. Is it inside the tank? What kind of media goes
in it? Can you tell me about the "moveable ball?" I don't know what the
means.

My snail would like the output though..:)

A

[sophie]

In message >,
Angrie.Woman > writes
>
>"sophie" > wrote in message
...
>> In message >, Kay
>> > writes
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I like it as a filter all round, you can also add a limited amount of air
>> to the output via a little tube that sticks out the top, but as you have
>> to reduce the flow to do this I don't use that option.
>> I think that as with the Fluval+ series (the only other filter I've
>> used...) you don't get absolutely "polished" water but as a biological and
>> gross mechanical filter they're both good, or have been for me. The
>> moveable "ball" bit was the thing that sold the eheim to me - that and the
>> appearance; it's pretty inconspicuous in the aquarium as internal filters
>> go.
>> --
>> sophie
>
>I just looked at up on-line. Is it inside the tank? What kind of media goes
>in it? Can you tell me about the "moveable ball?" I don't know what the
>means.

if you look here:

http://www.theaquariumshop.co.uk/ishop/1029/shopscr123.html

you can see the black "ball" that sits on the top of all the baskets;
you can rotate it pretty much any which way - side to side, up and down.
The little tube thing pointing up sticks above the surface of the water
and lets air in, the water comes out of the wider black tube just below
it. Actually, you can't point it far down but I can't imagine wanting to
angle the flow away from the surface of the water.

Media - the baskets all clip together and mine just have bog-standard
filter foam stuff in, the top one has a much finer grade in it. You can
put pretty much whatever you like in the baskets, though. The one
illustrated is the biggest, I think smaller ones have fewer baskets.

And they're nothing like as bright green as they look in the
illustration, either; much more subdued. Not black, not square, nice
broken up surface; looks fine under water, for me at least.


>
>My snail would like the output though..:)

my minnows love it. There's a nice fast current across the top of the
water and they scoot up to it from the bottom of the tank and whizz
along in it. Then go back for more...
--
sophie

[nk]

> I'm getting something similar with one of my 4 adult angels.
> It might be pre-breeding as one of them keeps pushing the other two back to
> the other end of the tank with lots of posturing and lip locking.
Peter,
I think the lip-lockers are the mated pair!
n