Bad Oranda Luck

[Jim Wilkerson]

I just recently lost one of my orandas. I had him for about 8 months.
He was quite normal until about 3-4 days before he died. Symptoms
were that he just sat on the bottom, then would kind of lean to the
side. He would be like this in the morning, but would then begon to
swim around reasonably normal. He also had what appeared to be a bit
of bloodshot-edness in his fins.

After about 2 days, I treated the tank with Mardel Coppersafe and
Marycyn 2. He got progressively worse, finally laying on the tank
either nose down or upside down. Total sick time until the end was
only about 5 days or so.

Now, what I have read after the fact, there seems to be a bit of
evidence toward the diet of the fish. I have other fish in the tanke,
and I have been feeding them a dry food, Hikari Ciclid Gold. Years
ago, I used this food with the same types of fish and had no problems,
so I thought I was OK. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of discussion
pointing to varied foods, such as brine shrimp, freeze dried worms,
and green peas. I have also read that dry food is better pre-soaked.

It was very upsetting to see him go like this, especially since I
could not really see where I had went wrong.

Tank parameters at the time (55 gal tank): ph about 7.2, ammonia
neutral, long tubular airstone, Fluval 304 filter, wter crystal clear,
temp around 77 deg. I have some live plants, mostly ferns and grass.
3 Lights, all on a timer which has them on about 8 hours a day.

Any thoughts, direction, and or advice would be greatly appreciated as
I really love the orandas and would like to get another.

Additionally, this was not the first goldfish problem. About a month
ago, one of my large black moors got what appeared to be a large
lesion on his side back by his tail fin. I tried what I thought was
the correct remedies for parasite, but ultimately lost him too.

And, my remaining moor now has a smaller, less ugly lesion in the same
place. I have treated the tanke with the Coppersafe again, but I just
do not know what else to try.

Thanks.

Jim
--

[Starfish]

sounds like kidney damage/failure....

Sorry about your beautiful fish dude
"Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-OdCp7N1vsZcS@localhost...
>I just recently lost one of my orandas. I had him for about 8 months.
> He was quite normal until about 3-4 days before he died. Symptoms
> were that he just sat on the bottom, then would kind of lean to the
> side. He would be like this in the morning, but would then begon to
> swim around reasonably normal. He also had what appeared to be a bit
> of bloodshot-edness in his fins.
>
> After about 2 days, I treated the tank with Mardel Coppersafe and
> Marycyn 2. He got progressively worse, finally laying on the tank
> either nose down or upside down. Total sick time until the end was
> only about 5 days or so.
>
> Now, what I have read after the fact, there seems to be a bit of
> evidence toward the diet of the fish. I have other fish in the tanke,
> and I have been feeding them a dry food, Hikari Ciclid Gold. Years
> ago, I used this food with the same types of fish and had no problems,
> so I thought I was OK. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of discussion
> pointing to varied foods, such as brine shrimp, freeze dried worms,
> and green peas. I have also read that dry food is better pre-soaked.
>
> It was very upsetting to see him go like this, especially since I
> could not really see where I had went wrong.
>
> Tank parameters at the time (55 gal tank): ph about 7.2, ammonia
> neutral, long tubular airstone, Fluval 304 filter, wter crystal clear,
> temp around 77 deg. I have some live plants, mostly ferns and grass.
> 3 Lights, all on a timer which has them on about 8 hours a day.
>
> Any thoughts, direction, and or advice would be greatly appreciated as
> I really love the orandas and would like to get another.
>
> Additionally, this was not the first goldfish problem. About a month
> ago, one of my large black moors got what appeared to be a large
> lesion on his side back by his tail fin. I tried what I thought was
> the correct remedies for parasite, but ultimately lost him too.
>
> And, my remaining moor now has a smaller, less ugly lesion in the same
> place. I have treated the tanke with the Coppersafe again, but I just
> do not know what else to try.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
> --
>

[Starfish]

How many fish....Nitrates? Nitrites?

you should lay off the chemicals....

Were you absolutely 100% certian than the lesion was parasitic....by the
sounds of it..lesions are cause by the fish being physically hurt, like
setting scratched on a sharp object.....

And your oranda problem.....have you ever considered even feeding thawed
frozen shelled mushed peas?? it helps if the fish is bloated from eating dry
food....kind of like a laxetive.......And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong
but cichlid food is made ESPECIALLY for cichlids (different ammount of fats
and proteins and other things)

...When you treated the oranda, you created another problem...it seems that
the medications already sent a stressed fish ofer the edge.....nose standing
indicates kidney damage..... And red streaks in fins and body is septicemia
or blood poisoning.....

If in doubt....treat a sick fish with salt (look up the dosages on the
net)...salt won't send an already sick fish over the edge....

HTH
"Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-OdCp7N1vsZcS@localhost...
>I just recently lost one of my orandas. I had him for about 8 months.
> He was quite normal until about 3-4 days before he died. Symptoms
> were that he just sat on the bottom, then would kind of lean to the
> side. He would be like this in the morning, but would then begon to
> swim around reasonably normal. He also had what appeared to be a bit
> of bloodshot-edness in his fins.
>
> After about 2 days, I treated the tank with Mardel Coppersafe and
> Marycyn 2. He got progressively worse, finally laying on the tank
> either nose down or upside down. Total sick time until the end was
> only about 5 days or so.
>
> Now, what I have read after the fact, there seems to be a bit of
> evidence toward the diet of the fish. I have other fish in the tanke,
> and I have been feeding them a dry food, Hikari Ciclid Gold. Years
> ago, I used this food with the same types of fish and had no problems,
> so I thought I was OK. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of discussion
> pointing to varied foods, such as brine shrimp, freeze dried worms,
> and green peas. I have also read that dry food is better pre-soaked.
>
> It was very upsetting to see him go like this, especially since I
> could not really see where I had went wrong.
>
> Tank parameters at the time (55 gal tank): ph about 7.2, ammonia
> neutral, long tubular airstone, Fluval 304 filter, wter crystal clear,
> temp around 77 deg. I have some live plants, mostly ferns and grass.
> 3 Lights, all on a timer which has them on about 8 hours a day.
>
> Any thoughts, direction, and or advice would be greatly appreciated as
> I really love the orandas and would like to get another.
>
> Additionally, this was not the first goldfish problem. About a month
> ago, one of my large black moors got what appeared to be a large
> lesion on his side back by his tail fin. I tried what I thought was
> the correct remedies for parasite, but ultimately lost him too.
>
> And, my remaining moor now has a smaller, less ugly lesion in the same
> place. I have treated the tanke with the Coppersafe again, but I just
> do not know what else to try.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
> --
>

[Jim Wilkerson]

55 gal tank, with the following fish population:

3 cory cats
1 plecostomas
1 brown African knife
2 Angels
1 Swordtail molly
2 Gourami (1 opaline, 1 dwarf red)
1 black moor (about 4 inches)
1 remaining oranda (about 3.3 inches)

Not sure about the nitrites, but I am going to get a test kit tonight
and find that part out.

Also going to switch to a more standard fish food (would something
like the Hikari line for goldfish be ok for the others?). I also have
in the past used the freeze dried Tubifex worms and froze brine
shrimp. From what I have read, I will in the future pre-soak the
Tubifex worms before feeding. I always thaw the brine shrimp first.
Also, I am going to get the frozen peas and apply as well. Looks like
maybe once a week for the peas?

I have heard the salt remedy as well. after I apply the salt,
obviously it will not evaporate with the water, and a water change
will surely reduce the salinity. My question, what about the filter?
Will it take a certain amount of the salt out? Will I need to change
any of the filter components any sooner than I normally would?

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:01:07 UTC, "Starfish" >
wrote:

Thanks for the guidance.

Jim

> How many fish....Nitrates? Nitrites?
>
> you should lay off the chemicals....
>
> Were you absolutely 100% certian than the lesion was parasitic....by the
> sounds of it..lesions are cause by the fish being physically hurt, like
> setting scratched on a sharp object.....
>
> And your oranda problem.....have you ever considered even feeding thawed
> frozen shelled mushed peas?? it helps if the fish is bloated from eating dry
> food....kind of like a laxetive.......And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong
> but cichlid food is made ESPECIALLY for cichlids (different ammount of fats
> and proteins and other things)
>
> ..When you treated the oranda, you created another problem...it seems that
> the medications already sent a stressed fish ofer the edge.....nose standing
> indicates kidney damage..... And red streaks in fins and body is septicemia
> or blood poisoning.....
>
> If in doubt....treat a sick fish with salt (look up the dosages on the
> net)...salt won't send an already sick fish over the edge....
>
> HTH
> "Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
> news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-OdCp7N1vsZcS@localhost...
> >I just recently lost one of my orandas. I had him for about 8 months.
> > He was quite normal until about 3-4 days before he died. Symptoms
> > were that he just sat on the bottom, then would kind of lean to the
> > side. He would be like this in the morning, but would then begon to
> > swim around reasonably normal. He also had what appeared to be a bit
> > of bloodshot-edness in his fins.
> >
> > After about 2 days, I treated the tank with Mardel Coppersafe and
> > Marycyn 2. He got progressively worse, finally laying on the tank
> > either nose down or upside down. Total sick time until the end was
> > only about 5 days or so.
> >
> > Now, what I have read after the fact, there seems to be a bit of
> > evidence toward the diet of the fish. I have other fish in the tanke,
> > and I have been feeding them a dry food, Hikari Ciclid Gold. Years
> > ago, I used this food with the same types of fish and had no problems,
> > so I thought I was OK. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of discussion
> > pointing to varied foods, such as brine shrimp, freeze dried worms,
> > and green peas. I have also read that dry food is better pre-soaked.
> >
> > It was very upsetting to see him go like this, especially since I
> > could not really see where I had went wrong.
> >
> > Tank parameters at the time (55 gal tank): ph about 7.2, ammonia
> > neutral, long tubular airstone, Fluval 304 filter, wter crystal clear,
> > temp around 77 deg. I have some live plants, mostly ferns and grass.
> > 3 Lights, all on a timer which has them on about 8 hours a day.
> >
> > Any thoughts, direction, and or advice would be greatly appreciated as
> > I really love the orandas and would like to get another.
> >
> > Additionally, this was not the first goldfish problem. About a month
> > ago, one of my large black moors got what appeared to be a large
> > lesion on his side back by his tail fin. I tried what I thought was
> > the correct remedies for parasite, but ultimately lost him too.
> >
> > And, my remaining moor now has a smaller, less ugly lesion in the same
> > place. I have treated the tanke with the Coppersafe again, but I just
> > do not know what else to try.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Jim
> > --
> >
>
>


--

[Jim Wilkerson]

Tested my water this evening.

ph = about 7.2
Ammonia = neutral
Nitrites = 0 ppm
Nitrates = as near as I can tell, about 80-100ppm (the instructions
that came with the kit say aronud 40ppm is normal. Thoughts?)

Also, I have originally added slat to the water, I believe it was
whatever was recommended on the container of salt that I bought
(1TBS/5 gallons water?)

I have tried to find anything on the web that talks about any kind of
additional salt treatment, but I am not having much luck. Is there a
guide of some sort out there somewhere?

Thanks again,

Jim

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:01:07 UTC, "Starfish" >
wrote:

> How many fish....Nitrates? Nitrites?
>
> you should lay off the chemicals....
>
> Were you absolutely 100% certian than the lesion was parasitic....by the
> sounds of it..lesions are cause by the fish being physically hurt, like
> setting scratched on a sharp object.....
>
> And your oranda problem.....have you ever considered even feeding thawed
> frozen shelled mushed peas?? it helps if the fish is bloated from eating dry
> food....kind of like a laxetive.......And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong
> but cichlid food is made ESPECIALLY for cichlids (different ammount of fats
> and proteins and other things)
>
> ..When you treated the oranda, you created another problem...it seems that
> the medications already sent a stressed fish ofer the edge.....nose standing
> indicates kidney damage..... And red streaks in fins and body is septicemia
> or blood poisoning.....
>
> If in doubt....treat a sick fish with salt (look up the dosages on the
> net)...salt won't send an already sick fish over the edge....
>
> HTH
> "Jim Wilkerson" > wrote in message
> news:RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-OdCp7N1vsZcS@localhost...
> >I just recently lost one of my orandas. I had him for about 8 months.
> > He was quite normal until about 3-4 days before he died. Symptoms
> > were that he just sat on the bottom, then would kind of lean to the
> > side. He would be like this in the morning, but would then begon to
> > swim around reasonably normal. He also had what appeared to be a bit
> > of bloodshot-edness in his fins.
> >
> > After about 2 days, I treated the tank with Mardel Coppersafe and
> > Marycyn 2. He got progressively worse, finally laying on the tank
> > either nose down or upside down. Total sick time until the end was
> > only about 5 days or so.
> >
> > Now, what I have read after the fact, there seems to be a bit of
> > evidence toward the diet of the fish. I have other fish in the tanke,
> > and I have been feeding them a dry food, Hikari Ciclid Gold. Years
> > ago, I used this food with the same types of fish and had no problems,
> > so I thought I was OK. Anyway, there seems to be a lot of discussion
> > pointing to varied foods, such as brine shrimp, freeze dried worms,
> > and green peas. I have also read that dry food is better pre-soaked.
> >
> > It was very upsetting to see him go like this, especially since I
> > could not really see where I had went wrong.
> >
> > Tank parameters at the time (55 gal tank): ph about 7.2, ammonia
> > neutral, long tubular airstone, Fluval 304 filter, wter crystal clear,
> > temp around 77 deg. I have some live plants, mostly ferns and grass.
> > 3 Lights, all on a timer which has them on about 8 hours a day.
> >
> > Any thoughts, direction, and or advice would be greatly appreciated as
> > I really love the orandas and would like to get another.
> >
> > Additionally, this was not the first goldfish problem. About a month
> > ago, one of my large black moors got what appeared to be a large
> > lesion on his side back by his tail fin. I tried what I thought was
> > the correct remedies for parasite, but ultimately lost him too.
> >
> > And, my remaining moor now has a smaller, less ugly lesion in the same
> > place. I have treated the tanke with the Coppersafe again, but I just
> > do not know what else to try.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Jim
> > --
> >
>
>


--

[Gunther]

In article <RFFxzJm83E64-pn2-o3NiFSz4z9Vm@localhost>,
says...
> Tested my water this evening.
>
> ph = about 7.2
> Ammonia = neutral
> Nitrites = 0 ppm
> Nitrates = as near as I can tell, about 80-100ppm (the instructions
> that came with the kit say aronud 40ppm is normal. Thoughts?)

I don't know about the other fish in there, but goldfish
for sure don't like nitrates that high. You should do a
big (>50%) PWC followed by another the next day.
Nitrates could well account for the symptoms you saw in the
Oranda. I try to keep mine at 20ppm or lower.

> Also, I have originally added slat to the water, I believe it was
> whatever was recommended on the container of salt that I bought
> (1TBS/5 gallons water?)

The rules might be different for a community tank like yours.
For goldfish, 1T/5G is a pretty weak concentration, and is
usually what's recommended for a general tonic.
As parasite treatment, it takes about 10 times that or more.

Hmmm...I was about to recommend you check koivet.com, but they
seem to be down(?) or something.

No matter: salt won't help lesions much.
Do those water changes.

[D.L.]

Please think about getting a separate tank that is just for your
goldfish -- perhaps a 20 gallon and then keep the population at 1 oranda
and 1 moor.

Goldfish are a different type of fish than tropical fish. Medications
that might work on a tropical fish may not work on a goldfish.

[Gfishery]

"D.L." > wrote in message ...
> Please think about getting a separate tank that is just for your
> goldfish -- perhaps a 20 gallon and then keep the population at 1 oranda
> and 1 moor.

Do Orandas get along better with Moors than they do with Fantails?
My Oranda is not getting along with my Fantails.

[D.L.]

<<<Do Orandas get along better with Moors than they do with Fantails? My
Oranda is not getting along with my Fantails.>>>

I'm not an expert on goldfish behavior, but I think for the most part,
goldfish of different types will get along if they are put into a tank
when they are all small and they grow up together.

I think that trouble starts when you add a new fish to an established
tank population.

[Gfishery]

"D.L." wrote:
> I'm not an expert on goldfish behavior, but I think for the most part,
> goldfish of different types will get along if they are put into a tank
> when they are all small and they grow up together.
>
> I think that trouble starts when you add a new fish to an established
> tank population.

The LFS keeps the Red Cap Orandas with the Orange Fantails, but they keep the Black Moors all by themselves.
The Oranda and Fantail I bought were from the same tank at the LFS, but they don't appear to get along.

I was at the LFS recently, and there was a dead black moor at the bottom of the tank,
and another black moor was nibbling away at it. Disgusting, to say the least.
Why don't the LFS employees take notice of these things before customers do?

[humBill]

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
>
> "D.L." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Please think about getting a separate tank that is just for your
>> goldfish -- perhaps a 20 gallon and then keep the population at 1 oranda
>> and 1 moor.
>
> Do Orandas get along better with Moors than they do with Fantails?
> My Oranda is not getting along with my Fantails


Unfortunately IMO I think compatible tankmates is more a matter of the
temperments of the individual fish you put together, rather than their
species. That being said I put 2 black moors into an established group of 2
orandas and a lion head. Almost right away the moors were bullying the
others - so I took them back out. Growing up together and comparable size I
would say are considerations.
Bill

>
>

[Ed VanDyke]

Though there are definitely poorly run lfs's and chain pet stores that don't
properly tend to their tanks, and hire incompetent employees. I try to give
them the benefit of the doubt, and assume I've won some kind of morbid
lottery and just happened to be the first to see it. I always make a point
of telling someone who can take care of it. Once after this very scenario
happened, I return to the same store about a week later. In this case it
was a very large Oscar. When I returned the skeleton of that same fish was
lying on the bottom of the tank. Needless to say I never went back.
(actually I did buy crickets there a couple times because it was walking
distance from my house) =)

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
> "D.L." wrote:
> The Oranda and Fantail I bought were from the same tank at the LFS, but
> they don't appear to get along.
>
> I was at the LFS recently, and there was a dead black moor at the bottom
> of the tank,
> and another black moor was nibbling away at it. Disgusting, to say the
> least.
> Why don't the LFS employees take notice of these things before customers
> do?
>
>
>