betta disease?

[Batik]

Hi,
I have a betta in a 5 gallon tank that was established last summer. The
betta has been in there for about that long.
I just noticed, while he was doing his thing and staring at me, that the
very tip of his bottom fin (it slighlty curves but it's always been like
that) is covered with what seems to be brown fungus. I never saw it there
before and i have never seen this on any of the other fish i keep. Any
suggestions on what it is and how to treat it?
Other than that small brown thing on his tail, he is acting normal and
eating like a lion, as usual...
Elisa

[IDzine01]

Well, Flex may have a brownish appearance at times and while it's a
bacteria in actuality, it looks very much like what people think to be
a fungus. ( www.nippyfish.net/flexibacter.html) or (
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=28 )

Can you post a photo by chance? If not maybe you could describe the
texture a bit more... smooth like new fin tissue, fuzzy like cotton,
stringy like hair or burnt looking like fin rot may be?

Also, have you tested your tanks temperature, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
and pH levels to see if anything has changed? What were the results?

[Batik]

So, it looks fuzzy. The water temp is usually around 80F. Ammonia and
nitrite were both zero and pH was neutral. I'll try to take a picture but he
wags a lot at me when i look at him. Also, how could i post the picture into
the group?
Thank you

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, Flex may have a brownish appearance at times and while it's a
> bacteria in actuality, it looks very much like what people think to be
> a fungus. ( www.nippyfish.net/flexibacter.html) or (
> http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=28 )
>
> Can you post a photo by chance? If not maybe you could describe the
> texture a bit more... smooth like new fin tissue, fuzzy like cotton,
> stringy like hair or burnt looking like fin rot may be?
>
> Also, have you tested your tanks temperature, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
> and pH levels to see if anything has changed? What were the results?
>

[Elaine T]

Batik wrote:
> So, it looks fuzzy. The water temp is usually around 80F. Ammonia and
> nitrite were both zero and pH was neutral. I'll try to take a picture but he
> wags a lot at me when i look at him. Also, how could i post the picture into
> the group?
> Thank you
>
> "IDzine01" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Well, Flex may have a brownish appearance at times and while it's a
>>bacteria in actuality, it looks very much like what people think to be
>>a fungus. ( www.nippyfish.net/flexibacter.html) or (
>>http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=28 )
>>
>>Can you post a photo by chance? If not maybe you could describe the
>>texture a bit more... smooth like new fin tissue, fuzzy like cotton,
>>stringy like hair or burnt looking like fin rot may be?
>>
>>Also, have you tested your tanks temperature, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
>>and pH levels to see if anything has changed? What were the results?
>>
>
>
>
You can directly treat fins by catching the fish and dabbing medicine on
the fin with a Q-tip. It's very effective because it delivers a
concentrated dose of medicine right on the growth and doesn't harm the
tank's biofiltration. I use malachite green for fungus or mercurichrome
from the drugstore for wounds or bacteria. In your case, I think I'd go
with mercurichrome since fungus is usually white or greyish. Treat
again in a couple of days if the fin doesn't improve

Despite your zero ammonia and nitrite, you most likely have a water
quality problem. Flexibacter, fungus, and pretty much any sort of
finrot happen most often in poor water conditions. Change a little more
water than you usually do right away, cleaning the gravel as thoroughly
as you can. Then start changing water every few days until the fish is
better.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[IDzine01]

I agree with elaine that something might be up with the water. Did you
test nitrates? In an established tank like yours this would be one of
if not THE most important thing to test. There could have been other
stressors too. (I.e. leaving lights on all the time, temperature
fluctuation from day to night, other fish, etc.)

Sometimes these things happen for no obvious reason.

While flex looks like a fungus it is really a bacterial infection. I
would recommend a wide spectrum antibiotic or a combination of Maracyn
and Maracyn-Two or since he's eating a medicated fish food that
contains oxytetracycline will help to get the antibiotics directly into
his system. Oh, by the way, Flex is most common in warm water (around
80=B0) You may want to lower the temp slowly down to around 77=B0 over
the next two days. (1 - 2 degrees per day only so as not to further
stress him)

Good Luck Batik!!!

[Tynk]

I jsut wanted to mention that Flex is commonly known as Columnaris.
I like to use Jungle brand, Fungus Eliminator for this bacteria.
This med works on both bacterial infections and true fungus as well.
The Fingus Guard is not the same, so don't get it by mistake.
If it is Columnaris, do NOT let it go.
It can take over a fish right before your very eyes.
With this crazy bacteria, it's either slow, or so fast it kills before
you can figure out what the heck is going on.
I've had fish that were treated and survived, lived long healthy lives.
I've also had a black Betta become over taken (his whole body) within
22 hours. It was nuts. I have pics of it's progress, but some were
lost. I also lost the list of times that they were taken (before I
labeled them!! Me and my lazy butt).

[Batik]

Update:
I have now been treating my Betta with Fungus eliminator for a bit over 12
days (meaning i've added the required dose 3 times, each after a 25% water
change, per instructions). Although the cotton-like substance disappears
initially, it seems to come back with a vengeance after a few days. He's
still very active and eating. Any further suggestions on what to do next? As
you can tell i really adore this Betta and would like to see him healthy
again.

"Batik" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
> I have a betta in a 5 gallon tank that was established last summer. The
> betta has been in there for about that long.
> I just noticed, while he was doing his thing and staring at me, that the
> very tip of his bottom fin (it slighlty curves but it's always been like
> that) is covered with what seems to be brown fungus. I never saw it there
> before and i have never seen this on any of the other fish i keep. Any
> suggestions on what it is and how to treat it?
> Other than that small brown thing on his tail, he is acting normal and
> eating like a lion, as usual...
> Elisa
>

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Batik > wrote:
>Update:
>I have now been treating my Betta with Fungus eliminator for a bit over 12
>days (meaning i've added the required dose 3 times, each after a 25% water
>change, per instructions). Although the cotton-like substance disappears
>initially, it seems to come back with a vengeance after a few days. He's
>still very active and eating. Any further suggestions on what to do next? As
>you can tell i really adore this Betta and would like to see him healthy
>again.

In all likely hood the disease is not true fungus (Saprolegnia)
and is quite probably "Flex" or Columnaris. Under a microscope it
might look like columns of cells. You need to use a medication
that specifically treats this disease. Offhand the two I can think
of are a product made by Jungle labs that has the name "fungus"
in the name but is actuall made for treating columnaris,
and the other is good old acriflavinw which is what I use.

The treatment has a long course, at least three weeks.

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[IDzine01]

What are your tank parameters now?

ammonia?
nitrite?
nitrate?
pH?
temperature?

If the initial problem (water quality?) isn't fixed then the medication
really won't help much. Have you determined the cause?

If it's quite severe you might want to try a different antibiotic like
Maracyn & Maracyn-Two in combination or Kanacyn if you can find it. I
have had a very high success rate with these but you don't want to
switch antibiotics while you are running a course.

I believe Fungus Eliminator contains Sodium chloride, nitrofurazone,
furazolidone, potassium and dichromate.

Consider an antibiotic like Erythromycin, Minocycline or
Oxytetracycline

The poor little guy... good luck!

[Richard Sexton]

>If it's quite severe you might want to try a different antibiotic like
>Maracyn & Maracyn-Two in combination or Kanacyn if you can find it. I
>have had a very high success rate with these but you don't want to
>switch antibiotics while you are running a course.
>
>Consider an antibiotic like Erythromycin, Minocycline or
>Oxytetracycline


NO!

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/



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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>If it's quite severe you might want to try a different antibiotic like
>>Maracyn & Maracyn-Two in combination or Kanacyn if you can find it. I
>>have had a very high success rate with these but you don't want to
>>switch antibiotics while you are running a course.
>>
>>Consider an antibiotic like Erythromycin, Minocycline or
>>Oxytetracycline
>
>
>
> NO!
>
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>
>
So you use a DNA binding known mutagen and probable carcinogen instead?
Yeesh. That's not a winner either. For anyone reading this who
doesn't know, pregnant women should completely avoid acriflavine and
everyone should avoid getting it on their skin.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[IDzine01]

Richard, (we've been chatting a lot this week)

It's important to look at it in context. I'm not recommending an
antibiotic for actual fungal infection, I'm talking about
Flavobacterium columnare, a bacterial infection that will result in
death if not treated with an antibiotic. Bakik is treating with
nitrofurazone, which is a good antibiotic but is not recommended for an
established tank like his/hers. I was simply suggesting a combination
of very effective antibiotics which would be safer for him/her to use.

Broad spectrum antibiotics are important when treateing columnare
because they are so often accompanied by Aeromonas (a secondary
bacterial infection). The options are to treat the infection using
caution (completing the course with suggested antibiotic, using proper
doses, etc) or let the fish die of a curable disease.

I always preach caution when recommending antibiotics. Here's an
article I wrote:

http://www.nippyfish.net/prevmeds.html

[Lisa]

IDzine - did you write the "www.nippyfish.net" website? I think the
site is just wonderful - I've recommended it to others in the past, and
not just for bettas (but mainly for bettas). I had no idea it was
yours! If so, kudos to you.

- Lisa

[Richard Sexton]

>>>Consider an antibiotic like Erythromycin, Minocycline or
>>>Oxytetracycline
>>
>> NO!
>>
>> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>>
>So you use a DNA binding known mutagen and probable carcinogen instead?
> Yeesh. That's not a winner either. For anyone reading this who
>doesn't know, pregnant women should completely avoid acriflavine and
>everyone should avoid getting it on their skin.

Acriflavine is not in the news and has not killed anybody; antobiotics
are and the incidental problems with them get worse every day, any
health care of nursing residence has antibiotice resistant bugs so
I've been told. Never mind that I can't recall ever having seen
a fish actually cured by antobiotics; as Wright says in his
article referenced above they have to be injected and damn few
vets even know how to do this.

"DNA binding known mutagen and probable carcinogen" would make
acriflavine abotu as harmful as cigarettes. Somehow life marches
on. Acriflavine has been used for decades and has not affected anybody's
breeding stock adversely I've heard or, ever. Doesn't it go without
saying any aquarium medecide should not be splashed on your hands
and that you almsot certainly will not grow a third eye if you do?

Any medication to kill one organis, will no doubt have some sort
of deliterious effect on the host. A more cynical view has it
that fish are cheap and in almsot all cases easily replaced. It's
not ilke a sick fish in the wild lasts long.

The naturopathic approach would be to stick them in a tank with
ceder root. I've seen that cure bacterial infectiosn (pop eye
in a big oscar) maracyn and maracyn II would not touch.



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[Richard Sexton]

>Broad spectrum antibiotics are important when treateing columnare
>because they are so often accompanied by Aeromonas (a secondary
>bacterial infection). The options are to treat the infection using

Using antibiotics based on mere suspicion of Aeromonas is not IMO
prudent. If the bug is cultured and you know it's there that's
different. Untergasser suggests Sulfathiozole, and if that doesn't
work, Chloramphenical, then tetracycline. Furunculosis looks
like columnaris under a microscope but most often occurs in
salmon. I'd need to see evidence it truly accompanies
columaris before I take it as rote.

>caution (completing the course with suggested antibiotic, using proper
>doses, etc) or let the fish die of a curable disease.
>
>I always preach caution when recommending antibiotics. Here's an
>article I wrote:
>
>http://www.nippyfish.net/prevmeds.html

I summarized the _Handbook of fish diseases_ section on
columnaris here:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/disease/flex/

Acriflavine is the first choice in his opinion. And this is
before the era of problems with antibiotics.


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[IDzine01]

Oh, thank you. It means a lot, it really does. The site is fairly new
still and I put it together because I had so much stuff in my head I
needed to get out.

Anyway, your kind words made my day. Thanks again.

[IDzine01]

Chloramphenicol is one of the most potent antibiotics you can buy.
Actually, I don't think you can buy it. You may need a prescription to
get it, at least in the United States. It's so powerful they use it to
treat typhoid fever in humans. I've never used Acriflavine before but I
believe it is also antibacterial. It's mostly used for disinfecting
eggs but I believe can be used against Flex in certain water
conditions. (Non-acidic water) If you try this, let me know how it
works. Believe it or not, I am open to alternative treatments.
Regardless, I am not certain that it is any better then the antibiotics
I recommended or has the ability to prevent antibiotic resistance.

If you have the resources to positively diagnose columnaris in a lab, I
think that's great. I wish I was so lucky, but the average aquarist
doesn't have the luxury of creating a bacterial culture and viewing it
under a microscope. Yeah, sometimes you can guess wrong, but in all
fairness, these are regular people keeping fish in tanks at home. They
just want to know why their fish is sick and all we can do is give them
an educated guess.

[Lisa]

Also, FWIW, I just can't see how the spread of antibiotic-resistant
bugs is attributable to the average aquarium hobbyist. I would guess
that 95-99% of freshwater aquarium-keepers never (1) purposely breed
fish and (2) never sell fry from happenstance breeding. I have done
neither, and I have had FW fish for 20 years! (OK, I started when I
was 10! LOL)

The real culprits, I suspect, are the mass-producers who churn out as
many fish as possible and dose them with all kinds of meds.
Personally, I have no qualms about dosing *my* hobby fish with whatever
is indicated for infections, fungal OR bacterial, since I will *never*
sell fry and I will *never* breed in any commercial sense. So . . .
why not dose, if there is a chance of saving some living creatures
whose brood will never be distributed, anyway? But I agree that the
commercial breeders really need to cut out the practice practice of
dosing with broad-spectrums.

- Lisa

[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>>Consider an antibiotic like Erythromycin, Minocycline or
>>>>Oxytetracycline
>>>
>>>NO!
>>>
>>>http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>>>
>>
>>So you use a DNA binding known mutagen and probable carcinogen instead?
>> Yeesh. That's not a winner either. For anyone reading this who
>>doesn't know, pregnant women should completely avoid acriflavine and
>>everyone should avoid getting it on their skin.
>
>
> Acriflavine is not in the news and has not killed anybody; antobiotics
> are and the incidental problems with them get worse every day, any
> health care of nursing residence has antibiotice resistant bugs so
> I've been told. Never mind that I can't recall ever having seen
> a fish actually cured by antobiotics; as Wright says in his
> article referenced above they have to be injected and damn few
> vets even know how to do this.
>
As if being in the news is a measure of relevancy? NOT! However, I
came down with both MRSA and resistant bronchitis myself after spending
time with a friend on a burn ward so I know what you're talking about
first hand. As for real fish cures with antibiotics, I've had pretty
good luck with them myself. But you know that I'm an advocate of
antibiotic in the food rather than the water.

> "DNA binding known mutagen and probable carcinogen" would make
> acriflavine abotu as harmful as cigarettes. Somehow life marches
> on. Acriflavine has been used for decades and has not affected anybody's
> breeding stock adversely I've heard or, ever. Doesn't it go without
> saying any aquarium medecide should not be splashed on your hands
> and that you almsot certainly will not grow a third eye if you do?
>
Gimme a break. In 2000, 5 million people worldwide died of lung cancer,
cardiovascular disease, or emphysema from smoking cigarettes. According
to WHO, half of the people who smoke will die prematurely of a smoking
related illness. That fits my personal definition of harmful.

As for acriflavine, I don't know of any other aquarium medications that
are probable carcinogens, and DNA binders are particularly nasty.

And no, you will not grow a third eye, but a pregnant woman (really all
women of childbearing age) should not expose herself to chemicals like
acriflavine or her baby might. The jury is still completely out as to
whether acriflavine is teratogenic or not. I personally prefer to limit
my exposure to all avoidable carcinogens including cigarette smoke, food
additives and aquarium chemicals.

> Any medication to kill one organis, will no doubt have some sort
> of deliterious effect on the host. A more cynical view has it
> that fish are cheap and in almsot all cases easily replaced. It's
> not ilke a sick fish in the wild lasts long.

This is true. But fishkeepers are not cheap nor easily replaced.

> The naturopathic approach would be to stick them in a tank with
> ceder root. I've seen that cure bacterial infectiosn (pop eye
> in a big oscar) maracyn and maracyn II would not touch.
>
Naturopathy is neglected in both human and piscine medicine. Melafix
and Pimafix are promising, although I have yet to see any real data on
them. Indian almond leaf is another naturopathic cure that's supposed
to be promising.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
IDzine01 > wrote:
>
>Chloramphenicol is one of the most potent antibiotics you can buy.
>Actually, I don't think you can buy it. You may need a prescription to
>get it, at least in the United States. It's so powerful they use it to

Oh it's wicjed stuff. A pharmacist friend gave me some years back
"here, not much call for it, it causes leukemia". Turns out
it doesn't exactly, my understanding is is repressed white celll
growth in bone marrow. Or something. It's a last resort drug
of choice in humans. Or something.

I rememebr a takl once by an African cichlid guy in the mid 70's
who bemoanded the fact "they just banned it" as it cured
"eevrything".

>eggs but I believe can be used against Flex in certain water
>conditions. (Non-acidic water) If you try this, let me know how it
>works. Believe it or not, I am open to alternative treatments.
>Regardless, I am not certain that it is any better then the antibiotics
>I recommended or has the ability to prevent antibiotic resistance.

I picked up some show bettas recently and one female had a rotting
fin and cottony mouth. I admit I never used Acriflavine before
but if old Dieter says it works... yes it does indeed seem to
work.

>If you have the resources to positively diagnose columnaris in a lab, I
>think that's great. I wish I was so lucky, but the average aquarist
>doesn't have the luxury of creating a bacterial culture and viewing it
>under a microscope. Yeah, sometimes you can guess wrong, but in all
>fairness, these are regular people keeping fish in tanks at home. They
>just want to know why their fish is sick and all we can do is give them
>an educated guess.


Understood. Advice from Harro Hieronimus, a prominent and well
published German aquarist is: "antibiotics should not be used in
aquarism. Never!" (livebearers at aquaria dot ilst list, v01.n527)

He also said:

"regarding quarantine because of fish TB is useless. It's in there,
anyway. Generally, quarantine is good if you want to prevent against
other diseases like Columnaris.

Desinfection: Useless, you already get it with the next fish.

"Antibiotics: To say "I found this antibiotic worked best" is - sorry to
say - nonsense. I have explained before. You first have to make a
resistance test. TB bacteria are resistant against some bacteria
already. If you have the result of the resistance test from your vet
(what is cheap over here) you take the antibiotic that still works. You
have to do it exactly like prescribed. Most mistakes are made if there
seems to be a success (symptoms disappear) and treatment is stopped.
Those bacteria surviving may be the ones resistant next time. That's the
wrong way. You write "those sore ... take months of antibiotics". If we
don't stop using antibiotics like today, i.e. the wrong way, we
ourselves will get problems because none of the usual antibiotics will
stop fish TB in men. There was an excellent article on fish TB and how
far it is already distributed among aquarists in FAMA or AFM. To cure
against nematodes with antibiotics is like taking a 10 lbs hammer (sorry
hammer, not you ;-) to kill a fly. Would you take antibiotics if you
have headache? If you cure nematodes, take an anthelminthikum. And keep
away from any antibiotics in aquarism. I can promise you they won't work
on the long term."

So, if the disease reponds to antibiotics and bacteriostatics
both, it would seem prudent to choose the bacteriostatic because
of the aquired resistance issue.

The terminology may be a bit muddled here as I'm a computer programmer
not a pathologist, biologist or doctor. By "antibiotic" I mean the
sort of things that inteferes with protein synthesis or DNA replication
or whatever such as penicillin or tetracycline and by bacteriostatic
I mean a general purpose biocide such as peroxide, acriflavine and
the like.

My understanding is bacteria can build up resistance to the former but not
the latter.


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[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Lisa > wrote:
>Also, FWIW, I just can't see how the spread of antibiotic-resistant
>bugs is attributable to the average aquarium hobbyist. I would guess
>that 95-99% of freshwater aquarium-keepers never (1) purposely breed
>fish and (2) never sell fry from happenstance breeding. I have done
>neither, and I have had FW fish for 20 years! (OK, I started when I
>was 10! LOL)

In the advent of an internet connected world things are very
different now than they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Look at the
disease Glugea for example. It came very clsoe to wiping out
almsot every Nothobranchius species in captivity (some of which
are extinct in the wild I understand) because of the exchange
of material betwen hobbyists facilitated by the net. I doubt
anybody thinks they're "part of the problem" but I think it's
better to be "part of the solution".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Glugea&btnG=Search

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[Richard Sexton]

I hear what you're saying Elaine, but my point is if there is
a way to treat a disease without resorting to antibiotics
I feel that's the way to go.

Lots of things are "known carcinogens in the state of
California" from paint to bug killer. They're still
sold, the idea is to not spill it all over yourself.

Your posting makes it sound like one drop of acriflacine
on your skin and you need to book into the oncology
ward. If it was that dangerous you wouldn't be able to
buy it. BNot that it isn't amazing what dangerous chemicals
are sold in the fish hobby. Look a the Hagan nitrate test
kit for example - oh look, cadmium salts.

You just have to be careful, that's all.

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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> I hear what you're saying Elaine, but my point is if there is
> a way to treat a disease without resorting to antibiotics
> I feel that's the way to go.
>
> Lots of things are "known carcinogens in the state of
> California" from paint to bug killer. They're still
> sold, the idea is to not spill it all over yourself.
>
> Your posting makes it sound like one drop of acriflacine
> on your skin and you need to book into the oncology
> ward. If it was that dangerous you wouldn't be able to
> buy it. BNot that it isn't amazing what dangerous chemicals
> are sold in the fish hobby. Look a the Hagan nitrate test
> kit for example - oh look, cadmium salts.
>
> You just have to be careful, that's all.
>
A point well made and well taken. I agree that antibiotics need to be a
last resort both in human and fish medicine. The antibiotic resistant
Mycobacterium marinum article you posted has me rethinking my some of my
approaches to ill fish.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[IDzine01]

Ok, I just spent the last two days arguing the point that there is a
correct time and place to use antibiotics, and I still firmly hold onto
that belief, but heck, this is a great thread so I will play devil's
advocate for a second and pose another question.

What happens when we introduce anti-bacterially resistant "bugs" back
into our environment? For instance, suppose we our beloved betta (or
other fish) gets a nasty case of columnaris. Not the treatable kind
that would takes days or weeks to kill him, but the mutated version
that kills our fish in under 24 hours. So in a desperate act of grief
we flush our pet. After-all, we couldn't bear to think of him in a
dumpster somewhere.

Are we potentially exposing indigenous fish to mutated bacteria that
they otherwise would never have been exposed to? Most aquarists know
they aren't supposed to flush dead fish but how many people either do
it anyway or don't know better? I know I flushed several fish back in
the day before I understood the consequences. Actually, I'm still not
certain of the consequences. Can these bacteria even exist in the cold
salty waters off Massachusetts or other parts of the world?

[Richard Sexton]

>Are we potentially exposing indigenous fish to mutated bacteria that
>they otherwise would never have been exposed to? Most aquarists know
>they aren't supposed to flush dead fish but how many people either do
>it anyway or don't know better? I know I flushed several fish back in
>the day before I understood the consequences. Actually, I'm still not
>certain of the consequences. Can these bacteria even exist in the cold
>salty waters off Massachusetts or other parts of the world?


Not as far as I know. Columaris cannot live in sal****er. Of
course chaos theory says it *could* happen.

The greater risk if there is any way, by sharing plants, fish
or even an infected net, is spread to another hobbyists
tanks. Say you take some plants to a store, while the bug can't
live on them for long it can for a while and it if infects
the store and then all tanks it quickly cascades out of control
potentially infecting everybodys tanks.

Now, this is unlikely but not impossible. But then look at
things like glugea, aids, what have you, all unlikely but...

Now, columnaris, in the worst case will just make fish
sick or die. The larger problem s mycobacteria that
can be speread to humans; it is hard to kill and
somewhere near 95% of all imported fish have it
as did the author of the warning posted here:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/wright/

It was hard, long and expensive to cure.

Harro points out one man did die from it:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/harro/

So, geiven that mycobacteria is nearly everywhere
and that aquarists are feverishly dosing randomly with
antibiotics, in effect, trying to create resistant strains
and that it does indeed kill people I cannot see
why anybody would advocate the use of antibiotics in aquairia,
ever.

Moreso, regarding your question of "can it live in salt
water" notice the name of the bug: Mycobacteria *marinum".


If we as aquarists do something about this now, it may never
become a big deal. Look at the snake hobby though, a few
irresponsible giant python owners were killed and they're
now banned in New York state. Under the wrong set of
circumstances, say a congressmans or senators son
catches fish TB it would not surprise me if what is now
a minor issue in the ornamental fish trade could become a bona fide
pulic health and safety issue. And those are the exact words
that get laws passed. We don't want to go there.

How many more have to die before this point is driven home?


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[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "IDzine01" > Spake Unto All:

>Are we potentially exposing indigenous fish to mutated bacteria that
>they otherwise would never have been exposed to?

Yes. And there's no "potentially" about it.

On the other hand, those wild fish wouldn't have had access to
antibiotics to treat the disease anyway, so for them drug resistance
is irrelevant.
It is however troublesome for breeders and hobbyists that pretty much
all diseases now have resistant strains, mainly due to the habit of
prophylactic dosage of antibiotics by the breeders.

[Ozdude]

"IDzine01" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ok, I just spent the last two days arguing the point that there is a
> correct time and place to use antibiotics, and I still firmly hold onto
> that belief, but heck, this is a great thread so I will play devil's
> advocate for a second and pose another question.
>
> What happens when we introduce anti-bacterially resistant "bugs" back
> into our environment? For instance, suppose we our beloved betta (or
> other fish) gets a nasty case of columnaris. Not the treatable kind
> that would takes days or weeks to kill him, but the mutated version
> that kills our fish in under 24 hours. So in a desperate act of grief
> we flush our pet. After-all, we couldn't bear to think of him in a
> dumpster somewhere.
>
> Are we potentially exposing indigenous fish to mutated bacteria that
> they otherwise would never have been exposed to? Most aquarists know
> they aren't supposed to flush dead fish but how many people either do
> it anyway or don't know better? I know I flushed several fish back in
> the day before I understood the consequences. Actually, I'm still not
> certain of the consequences. Can these bacteria even exist in the cold
> salty waters off Massachusetts or other parts of the world?

Well I never flush fish for a start. It's one of the things I was aware of
right at the recommencement of this hobby.

I bury all of my dead fish in the garden or in plant pots where they can
break down and be used as terrestrial fertilizer.

It doesn't take much effort really.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>

[Batik]

So, I'll reiterate in case you are reading this for the first time. I have
had a Betta for about 18 months in a 5 gallon heated/filtered tank.
Suddenly, his fins appeared to have cotton-like, yellow clumps. I consulted
here and figured it might be columnaris. Based on that, i did a massive
water change to ensure water was clean and started treating with fungus
eliminator. I did three rounds of treatment. In every round, he seemed to
get better and then the cottony stuff would come back with a vengeance. All
the while he was still acting normal. Upon suggestions (also from this
group), i switched over to Maracyn and Maracyn 2. I haven't seen the cotton
globs on his fins again and the fins are all better but he is bloated. Quite
bloated. I am fearing dropsy or constipation. His scales are not sticking
out and he's still acting normal...eating like a pig and all that. What
should be the next course of action. I can give him a boiled pea to see if
he gets better (in case it is constipation) but although he eats a lot...he
is also quite selective about food. And, are frozen peas (before i boil
them) okay or do they have to be fresh?
Help, please!!!
Elisa