Fish Tank Kits - Buyer Beware

[Gfishery]

"blove" provided this link about the New Tank Syndrome:

> http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

It is about time an article like the above ( or the articles at http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/aquariumstartup/ ) be included
with ALL fish tank kits.

I purchased a 10 gallon kit for $30 that had a picture of 3 orange and 3 black goldfish on the box.
The caption on the box reads "Great for Goldfish and other Coldwater Fish! For Tropical Fish, add a 5-15 Heater".
The kit comes with a Whisper 5-15 Power Filter, which some here feel is inadequate for this tank if Goldfish are to be kept.
The kit contained no air pump/stone, and mentions nothing about it. (I had to buy one at the LFS recently).
The employee at the chain LFS store felt 3 goldfish is about the maximum that could be kept in this tank, but the consensus here in
this newsgroup is that no more than 1 goldfish should be kept in a tank of this size.
I personally feel that keeping a solitary goldfish is cruel (i.e. they are not like bettas).

I usually read newsgroups before making a major purchase, but $30 didn't qualify as a major purchase.
And my wife had kept the same 6 goldfish for 8 years (until one of her tenants decided to "help" her by cleaning her tank with
detergent in her absence), so I didn't question her judgment about this purchase.
I wish I had read this newsgroup before starting, but I thought $30 was an excellent value for this Starter kit (marketed by a
major retail store):

10-gallon glass tank
Incandescent Light Hood with 2 x 15w bulbs
Tetra's Whisper 5-15 Power Filter, with 2 filter cartridges
Sample sizes: TetraFin Goldfish and TetraMin Tropical Fish flakes
Sample size TetraAqua's AquaSafe tap water conditioner
Retail size TetraAqua's EasyBalance water conditioner
Fish net
Digital thermometer (stick-on)
2 plastic plants

The Deluxe kit ($50) of the same size contains a fluorescent lamp (instead of incandescent) and a 5-15 heater.


Buyer Beware!

[bettasngoldfish]

the consensus here in
this newsgroup is that no more than 1 goldfish should be kept in a tank
of this size.
I personally feel that keeping a solitary goldfish is cruel (i.e. they
are not like bettas).

This is not the only place that will tell you that goldfish need at
least ten gallons of water each. Anyone who has kept goldfish
sucessfully for a long time will tell you the same thing and probably
recommed more like twenty to twenty five gallons per goldfish. A ten
gallon tank really is not an appropriate permanent home for any
goldfish. They do make a nice quarantine tank for smaller goldfish.
When someone recommends keeping one goldfish in a ten gallon tank its
because the person asking for help already has the ten gallon and nine
times out of ten they dont want to put out any more money to get a
larger tank. If you (not meaning you personally) cant/dont want to
spend more money or take up more space in your home for a larger fish
tank then maybe they ought to consider putting a betta in a ten gallon
because that is a much more appropriate home for that type of fish.

Maria

BTW, It's my personal feeling that the Starter Kits sold in any lfs or
lps are basically made up of the cheapest equipment that you can get
and they are NOT complete with everything you need to set up a tank. I
would not recommend them to anyone as I feel they are a big waste of
money.

[bettasngoldfish]

I purchased a 10 gallon kit for $30 that had a picture of 3 orange and
3 black goldfish on the box.
The caption on the box reads "Great for Goldfish and other Coldwater
Fish! For Tropical Fish,

Those pictures on the boxes can be so misleading to people who are just
starting out keeping fish. It is absured the amount/size of fish they
picture in their tanks. I find it very sad.

Maria

[Geezer From The Freezer]

bettasngoldfish wrote:
>
> I purchased a 10 gallon kit for $30 that had a picture of 3 orange and
> 3 black goldfish on the box.
> The caption on the box reads "Great for Goldfish and other Coldwater
> Fish! For Tropical Fish,
>
> Those pictures on the boxes can be so misleading to people who are just
> starting out keeping fish. It is absured the amount/size of fish they
> picture in their tanks. I find it very sad.
>
> Maria

Also the newbie buyers never considers that the fish they buy can actually
grow!!!

[Gfishery]

"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message ...
> Also the newbie buyers never considers that the fish they buy can actually
> grow!!!

The LFS had a sign outside the tank that said the Orandas and Fantails can reach 12".
A website I visited said they grow to about 6".

Which is it?

[Gfishery]

"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message oups.com...
> This is not the only place that will tell you that goldfish need at
> least ten gallons of water each. Anyone who has kept goldfish
> sucessfully for a long time will tell you the same thing and probably
> recommed more like twenty to twenty five gallons per goldfish.

My wife had the same 6 goldfish for about 8 years.
It was a 30 gallon (possibly 40 gallon) tank, no larger.

From what she told me, she did weekly 75% (or more) water changes, and that incudes removing the fish and all the gravel, etc
physically from the tank and cleaning the gravel in a separate bucket under cold water.
She had never seen a gravel vacuum, when I puchased mine recently.
I wonder how that tank ever managed to cycle properly, it it ever did!

She does not recall using tap water conditioners or de-chlorinators for the water, except when she added some new fish.
She did have a heater, an air pump and a power filter.
She does not recall ever changing the filter media!
The LFS close to where she had lived sold her everything (i.e. it was not a packaged Tank Kit)

I'm not saying this is ideal, but how could that setup have worked for 8 years?
She also says she added more fish in the tank, and only the newly added ones died, so she stopped adding more fish.
She is surprised I am spending so much time babying my 3 goldfish.

If her tenant had not cleaned the tank with detergent in her absence, I would have been able to meet those 8-year old goldfish
personally.
I did get to see 2 corpses in a shallow grave though (they were about 6 inches long and looked more like the Koi/Carp types rather
than the Oranda, Fantail, or Moor types).
But I am not a expert at fish forensics.

> then maybe they ought to consider putting a betta in a ten gallon
> because that is a much more appropriate home for that type of fish.

The tanks they sell for the bettas are much smaller.
I recall seeing a partitioned 5-gallon (or 2-gallon) tank for 2 bettas, and a 1-gallon container for 1 betta at the store where I
got my tank kit.
I guess nobody (including humans) get to live in large homes with large yards anymore! :)

> BTW, It's my personal feeling that the Starter Kits sold in any lfs or
> lps are basically made up of the cheapest equipment that you can get
> and they are NOT complete with everything you need to set up a tank.

How would someone go about identifying a high quality tank from a low quality tank?

The one I purchased (glass) had nicer silicone sealing at the edges than the one at the LFS (also glass) which had a very messy
silicone seal at the edges.

[~Roy]

A friend of mines father won 3 goldfish at a sideshow at the local
fair one year, and just dumped the three of them in a large typical
goldfish bowl........no air stone, filter or such, just the bowl nd
water........They were over 4" in length when he died and his son took
em over, and had them another year at least until he moved them into a
large 5 gal bucket until he found someone to take them...all that time
no water conditioner was ever used nor filters..........and they
looked good.....

My wife routinely keeps 2 tiny feeder types in a 2.5 gal plastic betta
setup, and 2 tiny black moors in a 10 gal setup. No room for any more
larger tanks in the house, but from these small colntainers when they
get bigger they get moved to a half barrel setup on the patio and then
into a floating cage or the enclosure in my pond, until they are
large enough not to have to worry about them becoming food for larger
fish in there, and then finally released into the large 1+ acre pond.

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:14:35 -0800, "Gfishery" >
wrote:

>===<>
>===<>"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message ...
>===<>> Also the newbie buyers never considers that the fish they buy can actually
>===<>> grow!!!
>===<>
>===<>The LFS had a sign outside the tank that said the Orandas and Fantails can reach 12".
>===<>A website I visited said they grow to about 6".
>===<>
>===<>Which is it?
>===<>

Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

[Gunther]

In article >, says...
> My wife had the same 6 goldfish for about 8 years.
> It was a 30 gallon (possibly 40 gallon) tank, no larger.
>
> From what she told me, she did weekly 75% (or more) water changes, and that incudes removing the fish and all the gravel, etc
> physically from the tank and cleaning the gravel in a separate bucket under cold water.
> She had never seen a gravel vacuum, when I puchased mine recently.
> I wonder how that tank ever managed to cycle properly, it it ever did!

If she didn't change the filter media, and didn't do anything
to overtly kill the bacteria in the gravel or on other surfaces,
then it could well have cycled.
>
> She does not recall using tap water conditioners or de-chlorinators for the water, except when she added some new fish.
> She did have a heater, an air pump and a power filter.
> She does not recall ever changing the filter media!
> The LFS close to where she had lived sold her everything (i.e. it was not a packaged Tank Kit)
> I'm not saying this is ideal, but how could that setup have worked for 8 years?
>
If the water supply contained only chlorine (as opposed to
chloramines) then a chemical dechlorinater isn't always
required: good aeration and aging will eliminate chlorine
within 24 hours.

As you stated, the fish were long (like koi) not squat
(like orandas). I firmly believe that the fancier a goldfish
is, that is, the further mutated it is from a common single-tailed
carp-like goldfish, the more delicate its entire system.
The fancy varieties are selectively bred for looks, not hardiness.
Thus it's hardly surprising that they're prone to digestive
problems and have an increased sensitivity to marginal water
quality.

> She also says she added more fish in the tank, and only the newly added ones died, so she stopped adding more fish.

She was operating right at the limits of her setup; new fish
would be stressed from the move and new surroundings, and would
indeed be the ones to suffer from the over-crowding.

> She is surprised I am spending so much time babying my 3 goldfish.

That's OK. Your fish are enjoying the attention.

.....
> How would someone go about identifying a high quality tank from a low quality tank?
Um...high quality = doesn't leak, and allows you to see inside.
Low quality = leaks or is opaque. :-)

I think that "quality" remark was in reference to "starter kits"
which are notoriously ill conceived.

Remember: the purpose of a hobby is to separate you from your money.
The purpose of a starter kit is to get the process rolling quickly.

:-)

[bettasngoldfish]

My wife had the same 6 goldfish for about 8 years.
It was a 30 gallon (possibly 40 gallon) tank, no larger.

>From what she told me, she did weekly 75% (or more) water changes,

I would be willing to bet that because she was doing frequent large
water changes that it helped keep the fish healthy. If they were
commons they are much more hardy than fancy type goldfish.


The tanks they sell for the bettas are much smaller.
I recall seeing a partitioned 5-gallon (or 2-gallon) tank for 2 bettas,
and a 1-gallon container for 1 betta at the store where I
got my tank kit.
I guess nobody (including humans) get to live in large homes with large
yards anymore! :)

Yes, I have many bettas who live in tanks that are smaller than ten
gallons, I was trying to say a fish of that size would be more
appropriate in a ten gallon than a goldfish. If you have never seen a
full grown goldfish I think you will be very surprised at how large
they can actually get especially if one feeds properly, maintains water
quality and gives them the space they need and deserve. And, yes, to
your second comment about nobody getting to live in large home with
large yards. My house is about the size of a shoe box ; )

How would someone go about identifying a high quality tank from a low
quality tank?

I dont necessarily mean that the tank it self is cheap but the
accessories that come with it are the lesser quality products.


Maria

[Ed VanDyke]

The misleading pictures on the box are a source of endless newsgroup
discussion. =)
I think everyone can agree, of course that a picture of a tank with one fish
in it just isn't nearly as exciting.
That being said, a 10 gallon tank with hood, filter, and a handful of
"extras" is still a pretty good deal.


"bettasngoldfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I purchased a 10 gallon kit for $30 that had a picture of 3 orange and
> 3 black goldfish on the box.
> The caption on the box reads "Great for Goldfish and other Coldwater
> Fish! For Tropical Fish,
>
> Those pictures on the boxes can be so misleading to people who are just
> starting out keeping fish. It is absured the amount/size of fish they
> picture in their tanks. I find it very sad.
>
> Maria
>

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Gfishery wrote:
>
> "Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message ...
> > Also the newbie buyers never considers that the fish they buy can actually
> > grow!!!
>
> The LFS had a sign outside the tank that said the Orandas and Fantails can reach 12".
> A website I visited said they grow to about 6".
>
> Which is it?

12" is about right, although it depends on genetics and water quality care!

[Geezer From The Freezer]

I can keep a dog alive by making it live in the cupboard under the
stairs, doesn't mean I'm doing a good job of caring for the dog!

[Gfishery]

"Gunther" > wrote in message .net...
> In article >, says...
> > My wife had the same 6 goldfish for about 8 years.
> > It was a 30 gallon (possibly 40 gallon) tank, no larger.
> >
> > From what she told me, she did weekly 75% (or more) water changes, and that incudes removing the fish and all the gravel, etc
> > physically from the tank and cleaning the gravel in a separate bucket under cold water.
> > She had never seen a gravel vacuum, when I puchased mine recently.
> > I wonder how that tank ever managed to cycle properly, it it ever did!
>
> If she didn't change the filter media, and didn't do anything
> to overtly kill the bacteria in the gravel or on other surfaces,
> then it could well have cycled.

Wouldn't washing the gravel under tap water kill the bacteria?

[Gunther]

In article >, says...
>
> "Gunther" > wrote in message .net...
> > In article >, says...
> > > My wife had the same 6 goldfish for about 8 years.
> > > It was a 30 gallon (possibly 40 gallon) tank, no larger.
> > >
> > > From what she told me, she did weekly 75% (or more) water changes, and that incudes removing the fish and all the gravel, etc
> > > physically from the tank and cleaning the gravel in a separate bucket under cold water.
> > > She had never seen a gravel vacuum, when I puchased mine recently.
> > > I wonder how that tank ever managed to cycle properly, it it ever did!
> >
> > If she didn't change the filter media, and didn't do anything
> > to overtly kill the bacteria in the gravel or on other surfaces,
> > then it could well have cycled.
>
> Wouldn't washing the gravel under tap water kill the bacteria?

Perhaps not: maybe it was well water? or municipal water
that didn't use chorine/chloramine?
But even if it did kill 100% of bacteria on the gravel,
that still leaves the filtration system and every other
surface in the tank.

If I were you, I'd just accept her word and see if you can't
get her to do the work for you now. :-)

[Gfishery]

"Ed VanDyke" > wrote in message ...
> The misleading pictures on the box are a source of endless newsgroup
> discussion. =)

And there are subtle contradictions within the kit too.
The kit doesn't include an air pump or air stone, but it does include a retail size bottle of
TetraAqua's EasyBalance.
First line under EasyBalance "Direction For Use" reads:
"EasyBalance should not be used in aquariums with low oxygen conditions; proper aeration using an airstone is strongly recommended."


Is it possible to "reduces frequent water changes by keeping aquarium water biologically and chemically balanced for up to 6
months", especially in a 10 gallon tank?

[Angrie.Woman]

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ed VanDyke" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The misleading pictures on the box are a source of endless newsgroup
>> discussion. =)
>
> And there are subtle contradictions within the kit too.
> The kit doesn't include an air pump or air stone, but it does include a
> retail size bottle of
> TetraAqua's EasyBalance.
> First line under EasyBalance "Direction For Use" reads:
> "EasyBalance should not be used in aquariums with low oxygen conditions;
> proper aeration using an airstone is strongly recommended."
>
>
> Is it possible to "reduces frequent water changes by keeping aquarium
> water biologically and chemically balanced for up to 6
> months", especially in a 10 gallon tank?

Probably, unless you want to put fish in it. :)

A


>
>

[Gfishery]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gfishery" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Ed VanDyke" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> The misleading pictures on the box are a source of endless newsgroup
> >> discussion. =)
> >
> > And there are subtle contradictions within the kit too.
> > The kit doesn't include an air pump or air stone, but it does include a
> > retail size bottle of
> > TetraAqua's EasyBalance.
> > First line under EasyBalance "Direction For Use" reads:
> > "EasyBalance should not be used in aquariums with low oxygen conditions;
> > proper aeration using an airstone is strongly recommended."
> >
> >
> > Is it possible to "reduces frequent water changes by keeping aquarium
> > water biologically and chemically balanced for up to 6
> > months", especially in a 10 gallon tank?
>
> Probably, unless you want to put fish in it. :)

A combination of a 30% water change (with a different tap water conditioner) and gravel vaccumming
has made my aquarium water crystal clear (and it seems to be staying clear).

I'm using Seachem's Prime now - "Removes Chlorine, Chloramine, Ammonia. Detoxifies Nitrite & Nitrate. Provides Slime Coat".
Has anyone compared and documented all the various manufacturers' claims?

Maybe, and just coincidentally, my tank had just fully cycled and it wasn't any of the above changes.
Or could the previous "biologically and chemically balanced" water slowed down the cycling process?