A Sad day

[Ozdude]

Oh dear!

What has happened?

I've lost 3 Neons, 2 Hockey Sticks, a large female Swordtail and I'm not
sure, but I think there is a Serpae missing as well.

My pH is 6.9. GH is 10dGH. KH is 10dKH. Ammonia is 5ppm, Nitrite is 0 and
Nitrate is 5ppm.

My pH was 7.4 yesterday in the afternoon and I changed my mixtures on my
yeast CO2 just before I went out to do my volunteer community radio shift,
so I was away for about 6 hours.

I activated the venturi on the Hailea filter before I went out because the
CO2 seemed to be pumping, and even though the reactor is self venting I
wasn't comfortable with the vast output as the yeast bottles came up.

I returned from the radio station later in the evening and checked the tank
with a flashlight and every-one was accounted for and just
"resting/sleeping". There wasn't any evidence of gasping or hanging near the
surface or anything unusual as far as I could see.

I measured the dark period pH and it was 7.2, which I consider a normal drop
for night time from 7.4, so I have no reason to suspect buffering issues.

I stopped the venturi this morning when I got up and kept my eye on the pH
hourly after that. It dropped to 6.9 and stayed there until now (stable).

The Sword just stopped on the substrate and rolled over and expired about 4
hours after stopping the venturi. Then I counted the Neons and instead of 11
there were only 9 - found two dead and colourless amongst the fronds of the
Hygro.

So seeing it was water change day, I started cleaning the glass with a
credit card and as I brought the card up from the substrate another dead
neon floated up with the swipe - it was still coloured up so had probably
just expired there and then.

After the 20% water change I was observing the tank and noticed yet another
Hockey couldn't be found and one was losing orientation and eventually
started swimming upside down. I transferred the upside down one immediately
to the tank with the BATs in it, which is oxygenated, pH 7.0, GH 4dGH and KH
3dKH. I don't expect it to make it through the night, to be honest because
of the shock of being dumped in a tank so radically different to the one it
came from. Unfortunately I think this one will be a victim of osmotic shock
;(

The only thing I can think of apart from over-CO2/lack of oxygen, is
possibly general stress from me completely disturbing one and all (and the
plants) the day before trying to catch the BATs in the big tank.

Not one of the fish was/is hanging near the surface gulping and most seemed
to be doing their usual things both overnight and today up to the water
change.

I know we have been discussing osmotic shock in these groups of late and
that crossed my mind too, but I don't think so - only the pH has dropped in
the last 36 hours. The KH has dropped over the last 72 hours though - from
14dKH to 10 dKH.

There was 0.3 pH drop over 4 hours though - from 7.2 to 6.9, where it is now
stable.

I wonder? Could it be a pH crash/instability that was just too much for
already stressed fish?

I need some advice, as you may have gathered.

My instinct, considering my ammonia and nitrate levels, is to now onwards do
daily 5-10% water changes, but there is also a part of my thinking which
says just rinse out the filter floss and leave the water. I am not sure what
to do.

FYI, the plants are pearling and growing and the chemistry seems fine. The
SAE's, Serpae, Black Phantoms, remaining Hockey Sticks, Mystery Snail, 1
male and 2 female swords and remaining Neons are all completely normal to
look at. They aren't doing anything strange at all.

I am just scared that I will wake to a tank full of dead fish in the
morning......arghhh!!!!

Any advice appreciated,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Nikki Casali]

Ozdude wrote:
> Oh dear!
>
> My pH is 6.9. GH is 10dGH. KH is 10dKH. Ammonia is 5ppm, Nitrite is 0 and
> Nitrate is 5ppm.
>

Are you sure your ammonia is 5ppm? I'm sure that would account for the
loss of those fish if everything else seems right? Then again, could a
red herring.

I was paranoid about the ammonia in my newly planted tank touching on
only 0.1 ppm. I easily cured the problem instantly by stuffing old
filter floss from my 330L aquarium into the new one.

I hope you sort this out soon!

Nikki

[Ozdude]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Ozdude wrote:
>> Oh dear!
>>
>> My pH is 6.9. GH is 10dGH. KH is 10dKH. Ammonia is 5ppm, Nitrite is 0 and
>> Nitrate is 5ppm.
>>
>
> Are you sure your ammonia is 5ppm? I'm sure that would account for the
> loss of those fish if everything else seems right? Then again, could a red
> herring.
>
> I was paranoid about the ammonia in my newly planted tank touching on only
> 0.1 ppm. I easily cured the problem instantly by stuffing old filter floss
> from my 330L aquarium into the new one.
>
> I hope you sort this out soon!

Duh! did it again - Ammonia is 0.5ppm - not high at all.

I also had another thought that this reading may be a false posative in any
case because I tested the water 4 hours after using that electrolyte
replacement de-chlorinator and dosing with Seachem Flourish.

I think I will move my water test days to the middle of the week and away
from the water change day, to get a clearer picture of what the settled
levels are.

I just checked the sick Hockey when I went to get the Ammonia test card and
it didn't make it ;(

Thanks for the heads up.

Oz


--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ozdude wrote:
> >> Oh dear!
> >>
> >> My pH is 6.9. GH is 10dGH. KH is 10dKH. Ammonia is 5ppm, Nitrite is 0
and
> >> Nitrate is 5ppm.
> >>
> >
> > Are you sure your ammonia is 5ppm? I'm sure that would account for the
> > loss of those fish if everything else seems right? Then again, could a
red
> > herring.
> >
> > I was paranoid about the ammonia in my newly planted tank touching on
only
> > 0.1 ppm. I easily cured the problem instantly by stuffing old filter
floss
> > from my 330L aquarium into the new one.
> >
> > I hope you sort this out soon!
>
> Duh! did it again - Ammonia is 0.5ppm - not high at all.
>
> I also had another thought that this reading may be a false posative in
any
> case because I tested the water 4 hours after using that electrolyte
> replacement de-chlorinator and dosing with Seachem Flourish.
>
> I think I will move my water test days to the middle of the week and away
> from the water change day, to get a clearer picture of what the settled
> levels are.
>
> I just checked the sick Hockey when I went to get the Ammonia test card
and
> it didn't make it ;(
>
> Thanks for the heads up.
>
> Oz
>
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
Sorry to hear your sad news :-(

I usually test my water just before the water change (and sometimes
inbetween) as this gives a truer reading of what is going on in the tank.
I'd definitely let things settle before testing - if you do it too soon
after a making a change you open up the potential for false readings IMO.

On the question of what went wrong is there anything that you've changed
recently? Or anyway that another pollutant may have got in the water? For
example, I know you added rainwater recently - what sort of area do you live
in? Where I live we have a lot of heavy traffic so I would tend not to think
of rainwater as an option here. Really, it's a matter of looking back over
the past few weeks at things that you might have been doing differently and
ruling them in/out.....not much help I know right now but might help in the
future....I just tend to get into this way of thinking as it's what I have
to do at work (Tech Support).

Sorry once again. I know I'm a "newbbie" at this but just thought some of
this might help with working out what might have happened....

Gill

[steve]

Gill Passman wrote:


> On the question of what went wrong is there anything that you've
changed
> recently? Or anyway that another pollutant may have got in the water?
For
> example, I know you added rainwater recently - what sort of area do
you live
> in? Where I live we have a lot of heavy traffic so I would tend not
to think
> of rainwater as an option here. Really, it's a matter of looking back
over
> the past few weeks at things that you might have been doing
differently and
> ruling them in/out.....not much help I know right now but might help
in the
> future....I just tend to get into this way of thinking as it's what I
have
> to do at work (Tech Support).


Oz, I'm with Gill on this one. I really don't think an ammonia spike
of .5 is what killed your fish. While cycling a tank I had an ammonia
spike of 5, and although it caused me a great amount of panic and
consternation, the fish showed no outward ill effects at all. I acted
quickly with a water change and some amquell.

Did you make some other change recently other than the rain water? I
seem to remember reading about some tank wood and other redecorations.
And that new plant... is it in the tank of death? I'm really afraid
if you don't find and change the real culprit, there will be more
sadness soon.

Time to put on your Sherlock hat, my friend.

sincerely,
steve

[Gill Passman]

"steve" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>
> > On the question of what went wrong is there anything that you've
> changed
> > recently? Or anyway that another pollutant may have got in the water?
> For
> > example, I know you added rainwater recently - what sort of area do
> you live
> > in? Where I live we have a lot of heavy traffic so I would tend not
> to think
> > of rainwater as an option here. Really, it's a matter of looking back
> over
> > the past few weeks at things that you might have been doing
> differently and
> > ruling them in/out.....not much help I know right now but might help
> in the
> > future....I just tend to get into this way of thinking as it's what I
> have
> > to do at work (Tech Support).
>
>
> Oz, I'm with Gill on this one. I really don't think an ammonia spike
> of .5 is what killed your fish. While cycling a tank I had an ammonia
> spike of 5, and although it caused me a great amount of panic and
> consternation, the fish showed no outward ill effects at all. I acted
> quickly with a water change and some amquell.
>
> Did you make some other change recently other than the rain water? I
> seem to remember reading about some tank wood and other redecorations.
> And that new plant... is it in the tank of death? I'm really afraid
> if you don't find and change the real culprit, there will be more
> sadness soon.
>
> Time to put on your Sherlock hat, my friend.
>
> sincerely,
> steve
>
Thought more on this while cooking dinner. Hey, sorry still from my work
perspective but I hope it'll help.

1. Make a list of what you did before any problems when everything was
stable.
2. Make a list of every change you made however small
3. Don't panic (as per Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy )
4. Go back to what you did in the first place - use the water you first
used/usually use and the chemicals that you normally added.
5. Don't over analyse (and I mean continuously test - the only people this
serves IMO are those that sell the test kits) - I don't mean don't do daily
tests - you need to right now but look at the trend rather than specific
results. I know that the reaction is to test, test, test and then react to
the results everytime you see something different - but things may change
hour to hour - but the more variables you change potentially on one scale
the worse it will get or at the other end the harder to put right.
6. Never make any assumptions that one thing or another caused the problem.
It could be just one or a combination.

I suggest to rectify you go right back to your original formula of water
type, changes, chemicals, CO2 levels, Oxygen etc....obviously you need to
react to the current situation by making your water changes but do it by
your tried and tested methods....don't add in any more variables

7. If it worked before it will work agin

FYI on the ammonia readings - I have driftwood in my "Community Tank". This
leeches a certain amount of colour into the water which can give the
appearance of a very low ammonia reading....I now compare the water against
the chart before I take the reading....

And my final word, promise, is put out the answers to any of these
questions...there are a lot of great people who can help....

Gill

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Sorry to hear your sad news :-(

Oh well, these things happen when you least expect it, but thanks.

The male Sword dies over night and another Tetra is gasping at the surface
(the first one to do so), so I don't hold up much hope for that little
fella.

Thanks for the thought.
>
> I usually test my water just before the water change (and sometimes
> inbetween) as this gives a truer reading of what is going on in the tank.
> I'd definitely let things settle before testing - if you do it too soon
> after a making a change you open up the potential for false readings IMO.

Agreed.
>
> On the question of what went wrong is there anything that you've changed
> recently? Or anyway that another pollutant may have got in the water? For
> example, I know you added rainwater recently - what sort of area do you
> live
> in? Where I live we have a lot of heavy traffic so I would tend not to
> think
> of rainwater as an option here. Really, it's a matter of looking back over
> the past few weeks at things that you might have been doing differently
> and
> ruling them in/out.....not much help I know right now but might help in
> the
> future....I just tend to get into this way of thinking as it's what I have
> to do at work (Tech Support).

Ah, that may be part of the problem - the rainwater was caught in the open
but I do have jets flying really low over the building - I am starting to
think perhpas there is kerosene or some other pollutant in the water, on top
of that the hardness dropped slightly over a short period of time because of
it's addition. It may be osmotic shock in combination with pollution.
>
> Sorry once again. I know I'm a "newbbie" at this but just thought some of
> this might help with working out what might have happened....

The more the merrier! - I'm looking for as many opinions as possible. - "All
Things Considered".

Thanks,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"steve" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> Oz, I'm with Gill on this one. I really don't think an ammonia spike
> of .5 is what killed your fish. While cycling a tank I had an ammonia
> spike of 5, and although it caused me a great amount of panic and
> consternation, the fish showed no outward ill effects at all. I acted
> quickly with a water change and some amquell.
>
> Did you make some other change recently other than the rain water? I
> seem to remember reading about some tank wood and other redecorations.
> And that new plant... is it in the tank of death? I'm really afraid
> if you don't find and change the real culprit, there will be more
> sadness soon.
>
> Time to put on your Sherlock hat, my friend.

It could be the wood, but I think it's that which is bringing the pH down.
To remove it now would take the pH back up. I measured it again just before
these posts (lights on) on it's 6.8 today. If I pull it out I fear it will
shoot up to 7.4 rather quickly.

I lost 1 more over night and one Tetra's not looking too good, but apart
from that everything else is normal.

Thanks, for the thoughts on the matter.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Thought more on this while cooking dinner. Hey, sorry still from my work
> perspective but I hope it'll help.
>
> 1. Make a list of what you did before any problems when everything was
> stable.

> 2. Make a list of every change you made however small

Have done that already. Added rainwater, removed a suspect rock and replaced
driftwood.

> 3. Don't panic (as per Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy )

I'm not panicing. These things happen to us all at one time or another.

> 4. Go back to what you did in the first place - use the water you first
> used/usually use and the chemicals that you normally added.

I did that yesterday. Just dechlorinated tap water. I suspect the damage was
done before that though.

> 5. Don't over analyse (and I mean continuously test - the only people this
> serves IMO are those that sell the test kits) - I don't mean don't do
> daily
> tests - you need to right now but look at the trend rather than specific
> results. I know that the reaction is to test, test, test and then react to
> the results everytime you see something different - but things may change
> hour to hour - but the more variables you change potentially on one scale
> the worse it will get or at the other end the harder to put right.

I have a personal ethic for aquariums - "small changes - slowly" - I think
though in this case in my haste to drop my hardness I may have overlooked
pollutants in the change aspects.

The wood was in the tank previous to my hardness and pH slowly creeping up
to pH 7.8 over about 3 weeks.

I am starting to think that the wood, two rocks and CO2 had some sort of
balance going that I have now disturbed by removing the leeching rock.

> 6. Never make any assumptions that one thing or another caused the
> problem.

I suspect it may be several things, or at least a couple of things -
pollution and osmostic shock atm.

> It could be just one or a combination.

Yes, I am with you on this point.
>
> I suggest to rectify you go right back to your original formula of water
> type, changes, chemicals, CO2 levels, Oxygen etc....obviously you need to
> react to the current situation by making your water changes but do it by
> your tried and tested methods....don't add in any more variables

5-10% per day do you think? I'm not sure? NetMax can you advise?
>
> 7. If it worked before it will work agin

Well it's only missing a rock really in comparison to it's previous stable
state.

>
> FYI on the ammonia readings - I have driftwood in my "Community Tank".
> This
> leeches a certain amount of colour into the water which can give the
> appearance of a very low ammonia reading....I now compare the water
> against
> the chart before I take the reading....
>
> And my final word, promise, is put out the answers to any of these
> questions...there are a lot of great people who can help....

Thanks so much for what you have considered - it makes perfect sense to me -
your advice is great and I don't feel paniced at all. Of course I am
concerned that the fish are suffering but methodic analasys and calm
reaction are needed.

I don't think I am going to lose all of my fish, just the ones that aren't
in tip top shape and I figure once the tank settles into it's new chemistry
I can start slowly restocking.

It's probably an opportunity for learning and restocking in diguise, the
more I think about it.

I had a thought on the osmotic shock front today too - what happens in the
wild when the fresh water of the Amazon floods the bow lakes where these
Tetras live? I am guessing the weaker ones will be culled off by shock and
there would be a proportion of deaths due to mainly wild pH spikes,
temperature and chemistry of the water?

So all-in-all I don't think it's cause for emotional concern, but it's cause
(in my case) for financial concern because I don't make a lot of money and I
can't just re-stock all losses once things settle. That in itself is also a
good thing as well in that it doesn't allow me to stock the tank all in one
day and suffer the consiquences of that type of impatience.

So you can see, my view is that even though death is occurring and that's
sad, it's actually a posative learning experience for me. If I lose all of
my fish, which I doubt, then even that's an opportunity to break the tank
right down and completely start again, which isn't something I would want to
do, but at least I could start with a clean slate and a vast amount of
correct knowledge, mainly from this group and the internet.

I'm sad, not paniced, but optimistic it will level out soon through
diligence, and correct action. Like I stated though I don't want the fish to
suffer if I can help it.

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
> Oh dear!
>
> What has happened?

I read ammonia and pH swings, so 3 considerations.

1) I'll cut & paste from another post, the following:
/start
There are two common tests for ammonia: Nessler's and salicylate.
Ammonia removers such as Amquel *will* give crazy reading on a Nessler
test. I've done it. A salicylate test will work right (showing no ammonia
if you've used a neutralizer properly).

Some test kits are marked properly, but many are not. Kordon makes a
salicylate test kit, which is not surprising since they make Amquel. You
can tell which kind of test it is by the color of the color chart. See
http://www.petsforum.com/novalek/kpd62.htm down at the bottom of the page
for examples. Reddish colors are Nessler; yellow and green are
salicylate (green is BAD).
/end

2) Some test kits measure combined NH3/4, others don't, check your
tester.

3) Now consider that ammonia is nontoxic (NH4 ammonium ions) at your low
pH level, and turning toxic (NH3 ammonia) at your upper pH level.

The jet fuel is a bad one too though, and I wonder how it reacts to pH
changes.

I hope you found something useful.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
> Any advice appreciated,
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>

[Gfishery]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message ...
> Duh! did it again - Ammonia is 0.5ppm - not high at all.

Was that free ammonia or total ammonia?

My ammonia detector says 0.02 mg/L (ppm?) of free ammonia at pH 7.0
corresponds to 3.6mg/L of total ammonia (total = free + ionized).

0.5 mg/L of free ammonia registers in the "Toxic" range of my ammonia detector.

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> u...
>> Oh dear!
>>
>> What has happened?
>
> I read ammonia and pH swings, so 3 considerations.
>
> 1) I'll cut & paste from another post, the following:
> /start
> There are two common tests for ammonia: Nessler's and salicylate. Ammonia
> removers such as Amquel *will* give crazy reading on a Nessler test. I've
> done it. A salicylate test will work right (showing no ammonia if you've
> used a neutralizer properly).
>
> Some test kits are marked properly, but many are not. Kordon makes a
> salicylate test kit, which is not surprising since they make Amquel. You
> can tell which kind of test it is by the color of the color chart. See
> http://www.petsforum.com/novalek/kpd62.htm down at the bottom of the page
> for examples. Reddish colors are Nessler; yellow and green are salicylate
> (green is BAD).
> /end

Mine is Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and is a salicylate test. The indication is
between yellow and light green.
0.5 ppm (could have been a false posative though).
>
> 2) Some test kits measure combined NH3/4, others don't, check your tester.
>
> 3) Now consider that ammonia is nontoxic (NH4 ammonium ions) at your low
> pH level, and turning toxic (NH3 ammonia) at your upper pH level.
>
> The jet fuel is a bad one too though, and I wonder how it reacts to pH
> changes.
>
> I hope you found something useful.

Thanks - things have stabalised.

I spoke to the LFS#1 lady today and she has recommended that 5% water
changes every day until the ammonia drops off 0.5ppm to 0 again. I am
changing my testing days to the middle day between weekly water changes, but
for now I will just keep the daily 5% up.

I still have most of my fish, but I have lost 11 of 47 (25%) in total, so I
guess I should re-stock in about a month's time when the tank has had time
to settle down.

I guess I am more shocked than anything now some time has progressed. I have
stopped panicking and my head is more level now.

I only use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits, except for the test strip JBL
hardness test, but tomorrow I'm getting an AP Hardness tester because the
readings for pH and Nitrate on the test strip just don't register the same
levels as the fluid testers from AP.

I tested pH today and it seems to have settled on 6.9. GH is 10dGH and KH is
10dKH, so all of that seems to have settled - it indicates "moderately soft"
and I am happy with these readings.

The plants were pearling again this afternoon and the water is very clear.
Everyone is eating and doing normal things. I can't see any flared or purple
gills or anything either.

This sounds a bit naff, but I don't really care if I lose the neons and
Hockeys - they are really too small and fragile in the grand scheme of
things.

The BAT's are doing fine on their own, and I'm looking at Lemon Tetras now
as replacements for the big tank. I don't know what to do about the Swords
that remain, but I guess a pH near 7.0 isn't going to bother them too much.
There is the issue of the Mystery Snail's shell as well.

I am also looking at some more Gouramis and a few Rainbow Fish or Pacific
Blue Eyes because the smaller fish seem more vulnerable and dependent on
water for oxygen. I have too many small fish IMO and they are too hard to
keep track of in my now quite heavily planted tank.

Any way thanks for your advice, and I'll keep you all informed how it goes,
no doubt.

Many experiential lessons here for me though ;) - I'm just sorry some of the
fish are having to suffer - I'll do a practice for their little souls next
time I sit;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Duh! did it again - Ammonia is 0.5ppm - not high at all.
>
> Was that free ammonia or total ammonia?
>
> My ammonia detector says 0.02 mg/L (ppm?) of free ammonia at pH 7.0
> corresponds to 3.6mg/L of total ammonia (total = free + ionized).
>
> 0.5 mg/L of free ammonia registers in the "Toxic" range of my ammonia
> detector.

It's free. 0.05mg/L is the transposition.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[David C. Stone]

In article >, Ozdude
> wrote:

[snip]
> Thanks - things have stabalised.
>
> I spoke to the LFS#1 lady today and she has recommended that 5% water
> changes every day until the ammonia drops off 0.5ppm to 0 again. I am
> changing my testing days to the middle day between weekly water changes, but
> for now I will just keep the daily 5% up.


If you really want to get the ammonia down, a 5% daily change is going
to take a _long_ time to have an effect (unless your nitrobacter
colonies grow fast). A 5% change will only drop the ammonia from
0.5 ppm to about 0.47 ppm, which will be indistinguishable on your
test kit.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
David C. Stone > wrote:
>In article >, Ozdude
> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> Thanks - things have stabalised.
>>
>> I spoke to the LFS#1 lady today and she has recommended that 5% water
>> changes every day until the ammonia drops off 0.5ppm to 0 again. I am
>> changing my testing days to the middle day between weekly water changes, but
>> for now I will just keep the daily 5% up.
>
>
>If you really want to get the ammonia down, a 5% daily change is going
>to take a _long_ time to have an effect (unless your nitrobacter
>colonies grow fast). A 5% change will only drop the ammonia from
>0.5 ppm to about 0.47 ppm, which will be indistinguishable on your
>test kit.

By my math it would take a month to even halve that ammonia this way.

http://aquaria.net/sys/tank

http://aquaria.net/sys/tank?WATER_WASTE=1&WATER_DAILY=0&WATER_PRCNT=5&WATER_DAYS=40&WATER_WCI=1&WATER_WC=1&action=Calculate

There's nothing wrong with doing BIG water changes. 80% or more.


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[Ozdude]

"David C. Stone" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Ozdude
> > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> Thanks - things have stabalised.
>>
>> I spoke to the LFS#1 lady today and she has recommended that 5% water
>> changes every day until the ammonia drops off 0.5ppm to 0 again. I am
>> changing my testing days to the middle day between weekly water changes,
>> but
>> for now I will just keep the daily 5% up.
>
>
> If you really want to get the ammonia down, a 5% daily change is going
> to take a _long_ time to have an effect (unless your nitrobacter
> colonies grow fast). A 5% change will only drop the ammonia from
> 0.5 ppm to about 0.47 ppm, which will be indistinguishable on your
> test kit.

Granted, and many thanks for your thoughts on the issue.

There are other factors at play in this situation. It's not just elevated
ammonia that is the problem.

There are dilution issues (possible pollution) and chemistry bouncing.

My tap water pH is really high - about 7.8 - my tank is 6.8-6.9. The
hardness of the tap water is almost double my tank water, so to do a big
water change regularly will do more to finish my tank off than elevated
ammonia will at this stage.

I can't afford a DI/RO unit, so I have to try an equalise the situation as
best I can with what I've got.

I tend to also think that the filters and tank may take a long time to
recover doing this, as you mention, but I am really starting to err on the
side of thinking that the tank is actually cycling again. It had its
bio-load doubled in a short space of time. I applied a tank wide tri-sulphur
medication a month ago and I fear that may have finished most of the
bacteria off in the filters because I didn't remove them while the meds were
in there (you live and learn).

I can't do a lot about the replacement water quality other than be aware of
it, but I do take full responsibility for the die off that's happened this
weekend - I knew all the facts - I just was so impatient that the
side-effects of that action, combined with suspicious rainwater (possibly
polluted by atmospheric toxins), high TDS tap water, changing bio-loads at
the wrong time and placing an inappropriate species in a peaceful community
tank, and lowering the tank wide TDS, pH and changing dechlorinator
mixtures - have all combined to have the effect that's happening as I write.

I lost two more Neons over the last 48 hours, but truth be known, they are
about 1 month in the tank, and I have read that most don't make it past 1
month due to mass breeding regimes. So I am not too concerned that they are
dying off, or at least, I'm not surprised.

The whole tank went through massive stress the day before the die off,
trying to catch the pesky BAT's.

Like I said - many, many lessons have been learnt. It's just time to deal
with the consequences of my "stupidity/ignorance" and optimistically hope
that it settles and the tank can move on.

If there is one thing that has been proved to me over and over with aquaria
it's this; "small things and take your time - it won't happen instantly and
neither should it"

Thanks,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...

> By my math it would take a month to even halve that ammonia this way.

I am still doing my 25% change on the first day of the week, but I agree
it's going to take a while. I can possibly up this to twice a week, but in
the process I am going to have to have less showers and not flush my toilet
for a few days. My landlord is on my case already about using too much
water. It's a pain transferring tank water into watering cans to recycle it
into the garden too. If I leave it too long in containers outside it gets
severe green algae inside of 4 days.

I just have to wear this period I'm afraid. There is no use adding chemicals
and I can't afford them any way.

I have to be careful with water amount too - I can't just go changing 20-25%
out every couple of days because we are on level 2 water restrictions over
here - it's very difficult - it's the same reason that when I read about
Pythons I baulk at the water waste that seems to happen when using them - if
we had no supply problems then I wouldn't baulk so much, but I think
generally we globally have to cut down on waste and start rethinking about
re-using/recycling stuff, and I believe water, seeing it's so precious is a
good place to start.

There is also the consideration too, while we're on this water chemistry
thread - my ammonia might be high because I can't find the dead fish half
the time - they disappear completely and because the tank is so heavily
planted now it's even more difficult to find them. I found a mush on the
power-head intake grill on Monday and I'd say it was the broken down
remnants of a Neon Tetra - it wasn't really discernable what it was, but I
suspect it wasn't algal or plant.

I presume the snail is consuming the carcasses, but I can't be sure.

Perhaps it may come to a 70-80% water change at some time in the future if
things don't change, but that's going to be a mammoth thing for me. I'll
have to move all of the fish out to a holding tank and keep them there until
the TDS and pH drop to stable tank levels - I'm sort of between a rock and
hard place with my water (excuse the pun ;) ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
>> u...
<snip>
>
> I spoke to the LFS#1 lady today and she has recommended that 5% water
> changes every day until the ammonia drops off 0.5ppm to 0 again. I am
> changing my testing days to the middle day between weekly water
> changes, but for now I will just keep the daily 5% up.

A daily 5% change would seem quite ineffectual to me.

<snip>

> I only use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits, except for the test
> strip JBL hardness test, but tomorrow I'm getting an AP Hardness tester
> because the readings for pH and Nitrate on the test strip just don't
> register the same levels as the fluid testers from AP.

It's a common misconseption that test kits are accurate. They aren't.
If they were, they would cost hundreds of dollars each, or test labs
would be out of business. Fortunately for aquaria purposes, we don't
normally need what is known as 'absolute' accuracy (which is a level of
precision which can be achieved regardless of the manufacturer or device
being used). What we need is known as 'relative' accuracy, so that a
reading of 6.5pH and then 7.0pH is truly a 0.5pH change. Fish don't care
if 7.0pH is actually 6.8pH or 7.3pH. They are interested in stability,
so we should normally be interested in 'relative' accuracy (the
difference detected using the same sequence, same reagents of the same
kit from the same manufacturer). It is laughable to compare the pH
reading you get from a Tetra kit to a Hagen kit. Don't even *try* to
compare. I can even get different numbers from the same manufacturer by
using different reagents (ie: high range, low range, wide range).

ps: for those in the trade and in the know, when we really need accuracy,
we know which tester to use, for example pH would be manufacturer XYZ in
the XX range, and for hardness, use manufacturer ABC, for ammonia use
manufacturer HHH, etc etc. I won't name names, because I don't think
it's appropriate in this kind of a public forum, *and* I don't think it
should really matter. Just use your test kits consistently, from the
same manufacturer, and look at your readings with tongue in cheek, while
noting the numbers for comparison to earlier/later measurements. hth : )
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>

[[email protected]]

I know what you mean about the python no spill clean and spill wasting
water at water removal and a little when refilling tanks. My solution
is to use a separate long length of python hose and gravity feed the
siphon to drain tanks of some water. It can be just as efficient as the
water powered water pump and it doesn't waste water. I even route the
hose through our sliding glass door to the patio where the drained
water spills onto the edge of the lawn outside. I also use a plastic
siphon starter I bought from a hardware store (it is meant for use with
kerosine but works here because the water flow never pushes the water
ever into the tank and the siphon starter pump is clean and has never
been used for anything besides water) and that makes siphoning easy. I
might buy a small dynamaster (300 gph or higher capacity) mag drive
pump to play with mastering my particular siphoning preferences but
gravity driven siphoning is good because that python hose can get kinks
in it and when I make sure all of the kinks are out it drains tanks
fast. A pump would probably still have problems because of the kinks.
It looks like lees aquarium products have bought python. BTW you are
way ahead of me oz - I have simple setups compared to yours and I
highly respect you on what you have been able to accomplish with your
budget - good luck to you friend, later, Dan! (hi Daniel!).

[Elaine T]

Ozdude wrote:
<snip>

> Many experiential lessons here for me though ;) - I'm just sorry some of the
> fish are having to suffer - I'll do a practice for their little souls next
> time I sit;)
>
> Oz
>

Sorry for your losses Oz. Wipeout sucks - especially when it sounds
like it was your local water.

I wonder if fish go through the bardo? Perhaps you should put the
Tibetan Book of the Dead by the fishtank. ;-)

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[David C. Stone]

In article >, NetMax
> wrote:

[snip]
>
> ps: for those in the trade and in the know, when we really need accuracy,
> we know which tester to use, for example pH would be manufacturer XYZ in
> the XX range, and for hardness, use manufacturer ABC, for ammonia use
> manufacturer HHH, etc etc. I won't name names, because I don't think
> it's appropriate in this kind of a public forum, *and* I don't think it
> should really matter. Just use your test kits consistently, from the
> same manufacturer, and look at your readings with tongue in cheek, while
> noting the numbers for comparison to earlier/later measurements. hth : )

I would be interested in knowing, since I run pH, hardness, ammonia etc.
measurements on fish tank water as part of a lab. course I run. Can
you send the info to me at dstone at chem dot toronto dot edu?

Thanks!

[Ozdude]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ozdude wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> Many experiential lessons here for me though ;) - I'm just sorry some of
>> the fish are having to suffer - I'll do a practice for their little souls
>> next time I sit;)
>>
>> Oz
>>
>
> Sorry for your losses Oz. Wipeout sucks - especially when it sounds like
> it was your local water.
>
> I wonder if fish go through the bardo? Perhaps you should put the Tibetan
> Book of the Dead by the fishtank. ;-)

I actually have The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying (more comprehensive
than The Tibetan Book Of The Dead) in view of the tank because I've been
reading it whilst keeping an eye on the tank ;) I don't think there is a lot
in there for fish somehow ;) Some degree of sentience is required to take
the concepts in and a fish just doesn't cut it I'm afraid;)

I wish them a better existence next time. Everything passes, and I am sorry
for them too, but I can't see a fish being reincarnated into something
hideous somehow - just another fish or animal. I'm sure there are Bardo's
for them but where they lead a creature of the animal realm isn't something
I'd like to contemplate - knowing my luck all of my dead fish will be
reincarnated as Elephants or Tigers ;)

Any way to repeat an earlier post - I think I've found the *actual* cause of
the problem. I tested the water after a thorough vacuuming of the gravel
(the definite source of the high ammonia and nitrate) and 50% water change
and I am now registering pH 6.9, GH 10dGH, KH 10dKH, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0,
Nitrate 0 - Yay!!!!

The water is crystal clear as I write this - the fish that remain are
looking very sprightly and healthy, bar two Neons who have white bands
across their heads and keep losing orientation - I can't do much about them
because the Black Neons and Hockeys keep picking on them, so I expect them
to be expired by morning. -oh well - Time to consider Cardinals if I want
bright blue in the tank.

I am going to maintain and wait some more - a week or so now, and then I'll
start restocking slowly - it's an opportunity to change the species a bit.
I'm very into the Lemon Tetra, and now will be my chance to get the Preacox
Rainbows and a few more types of Gourami. I'll probably steer away from
alkaline loving species like Mollies and Platys, Cichlids, Angels etc. and
concentrate on more sof****er types, just so I don't have to worry too much
about things like lower pH.

Any way I thought I'd better let you all know that it wasn't entirely tap
water quality, external pollution, TDS/Osmotic Shock, buffering ability
etc, - it seems it may have been actually a dirty substrate. It's amazing
that after only 2 months a substrate can collect so much stuff - but then
again lots of metabolizing goes on every hour of every day and if the fish
don't suffer one thing in my tank it's constipation ;) There were a hell of
a lot of droppings that got sucked up.

So it appears to be well on the way to being sorted and a lot more stable
now - I'm a happy camper! ;)

==
(Repeat of a previous post)

I bought a new gravel vac today and the amount of mulm and detritus that
came off the gravel in my main tank was just amazing. It gave cause to me
thinking that my "Sad Day" issue is, after all, ammonia; effectively,
premature OTS - filthy toxic gravel

I've thoroughly vacuumed the gravel of all of it's rubbish (tons and tons of
droppings, bit's of old pellet food and mushy plant bits) with this new vac
and then did a 50% water change. I bought some new water conditioner today
which deals with ammonia, so I used that for the replacement water.

The tank seems so much happier now and I'm sort of really suspicious that
the whole deal was caused by the gravel and elevating ammonia after all of
that. It seems that TDS wasn't the issue I thought it was. I've lost 50% of
my Neons now, but I expected them to go with in a month any way, as I'm not
a big fan of mass bred neons (ours here come from Asia - usually Singapore,
Thailand or Malaysia) and I was worried they'd be weaker than the average
right from the start and that appears so.

Cardinals are looking more attractive and always have been - it's the price
of them that prevents me getting some.

I tested for ammonia about 6 hours after the 50% change and it's 0 again.
Nitrates have gone to 0 as well after a month or so of being elevated. pH
and hardness were both quite close to where they have settled, even with 50%
water changed out - that CO2 seems to have a pretty quick effect, or my
buffering is actually not too bad after all, or both.

I was wondering why the plants weren't absorbing these substances - now I
think I know why - there was just too much - it was out of balance.

So much for the snail too! I thought Mystery Snails were supposed to dine on
this stuff? ;)

I've cut feeding back to 50% and shall continue with that for the rest of
this week until I'm satisfied the Ammonia isn't an issue any longer. There
are sure going to be some ravenous tetras in a few days time ;)

I am beside myself at how much stuff was in the gravel and how little of it
my old vac was picking up. The strange thing is that the substrate looked
fine and clean to the eye both from the front and from above. You just can't
tell visually sometimes it seems.

So I guess a decent gravel cleaner is a very wise investment after this
revelation.

Anyway I like the new Gravel Vac - it's 22" long, with a 1M hose, it's self
starting, has a proper filter for particulates and it's got quite amazing
suction.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..

> It's a common misconseption that test kits are accurate. They aren't.

I actually was aware of this from information on the British Practical
Fishkeeping Magazine site where they put various test kits through their
paces.

My main thing with test kits is to stay with one test from one manufacturer
and note the variances of reading from that single manufacturer test. I know
they are ball park readings at best, but as you correctly state - the fish
care about stability and if I've learnt one thing about that recently it's
that instability is not good for fish.;) Wild swings and sudden changes kill
fish, or severely weaken them so they die prematurely.

I think anyone with any sense would take test results from these products as
general ideal figures.

I do, however, take note of the fact that pH 6.0 is twice as acidic as pH
7.0 because a fish sitting there at pH7.0 and then suddenly having pH6.0
water all around it would suffer in the gills at least from an alkalinity
(power of hydrogen) spike I would imagine.

But as you say , stability is the real issue and should be aimed for. The
tests are the sign posts to this stability.

>
> ps: for those in the trade and in the know, when we really need accuracy,
> we know which tester to use, for example pH would be manufacturer XYZ in
> the XX range, and for hardness, use manufacturer ABC, for ammonia use
> manufacturer HHH, etc etc. I won't name names, because I don't think it's
> appropriate in this kind of a public forum, *and* I don't think it should
> really matter. Just use your test kits consistently, from the same
> manufacturer, and look at your readings with tongue in cheek, while noting
> the numbers for comparison to earlier/later measurements. hth : )

I keep a written log of my readings and every now and again I graph them to
see any "trends" that may be appearing. I agree with the above 100%.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>

[Richard Sexton]

>I do, however, take note of the fact that pH 6.0 is twice as acidic as pH
>7.0

10X not 2X.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=pH+logarithmic+%22ten+times%22&btnG=Search



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[Ozdude]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >I do, however, take note of the fact that pH 6.0 is twice as acidic as pH
>>7.0
>
> 10X not 2X.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=pH+logarithmic+%22ten+times%22&btnG=Search

thanks Richard - noted. I think I'm losing my comprehension over this Sad
Day issue ;)

I changed 30% water out again today after another thorough gravel vacuuming
but I tested before I did the change - pH still 6.9/7.0, Ammonia 0, Nitrite
0, Nitrate 5ppm, GH10, KH10 - so I am happy with that - it's been there for
two days now and I lost that Tetra I was expecting to and found the missing
Serpae floating dead this morning on tank inspection - it was all white
(including it's eyes) and was missing it's fins - looks like it was attacked
to me.

I am going to let the green algae grow on the rear pane too because I'm a
little concerned the SAE's and Swords aren't getting enough live green. I'm
not sure but I think the algae would also absorb some of the nitrate? As
long as it doesn't hit 20 then I'm not too concerned.

So I think the worst is over. Time to take stock of all lessons learned and
a slow consideration of replacements for the deceased. I guess in a funny
sort of way it's an opportunity to get the biotope more correct - it's just
a shame so many little critters prematurely exited this world ;(

I won't re-stock for 2 weeks just to make sure the tank is actually stable,
and that will also give me a chance to get my CO2 bottles cycling, which I
started today - this way there won't be CO2 (and hence pH) spikes and swings
every time I recharge the mixtures.

You live and learn I guess ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[steve]

hmmmmmmm. I'm not totally buying in to the dirty gravel theory,
especially in a 2 month old tank. As I understand it, the bacteria
effectively breaks down the food, fish and plant waste. These waste
products turn into nitrate compounds. If your gravel was extremely
dirty or "full", then the problem would have been measured in a high
number (80+) of nitrates. As I understand it, fish can handle this
high for a short period, and long periods lead to OTS. OTS can be hard
on fish, cause early "death by old age" can cause hole in the head
disease and other ailments.

Now, I can think of one senario that would poision the fish. This
would involve the gravel being full of waste material, deep down, that
was decomposing and not being acted upon by the bacteria due to lack of
oxygen. Then, some event stirs up this toxic waste dump and introduces
the toxins to the water colomn. Did something like this occur? I
could how this type event would overdose the bacteria colony by
introducing a huge load and resulting in an ammonia spike. And I mean
a big spike to kill several fish. Like a spike of 10 ppm. Maybe this
did occur, the huge ammonia spike, and you just weren't there to
measure it. Here's a quizzer for the pros: In a cycled tank, how long
does it take the bacteria to convert a huge overdose load of ammonia?
How long would the ammonia be measurable in the water column? And,
would there then be a similar spike in Nitrites? Could this occur,
say, overnight, and in the morning all you'd see is dead fish and a
higher than normal amount of Nitrates?

steve

[steve]

Oh yeah, another thought: Does the tank have an undergravel filter?
If so, then all the mulm that is being removed is not toxic or "bad",
it's basically inert fertilizer isn't it?

steve

[NetMax]

"steve" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> hmmmmmmm. I'm not totally buying in to the dirty gravel theory,
> especially in a 2 month old tank. As I understand it, the bacteria
> effectively breaks down the food, fish and plant waste. These waste
> products turn into nitrate compounds. If your gravel was extremely
> dirty or "full", then the problem would have been measured in a high
> number (80+) of nitrates. As I understand it, fish can handle this
> high for a short period, and long periods lead to OTS. OTS can be hard
> on fish, cause early "death by old age" can cause hole in the head
> disease and other ailments.
>
> Now, I can think of one senario that would poision the fish. This
> would involve the gravel being full of waste material, deep down, that
> was decomposing and not being acted upon by the bacteria due to lack of
> oxygen. Then, some event stirs up this toxic waste dump and introduces
> the toxins to the water colomn. Did something like this occur? I
> could how this type event would overdose the bacteria colony by
> introducing a huge load and resulting in an ammonia spike. And I mean
> a big spike to kill several fish. Like a spike of 10 ppm. Maybe this
> did occur, the huge ammonia spike, and you just weren't there to
> measure it. Here's a quizzer for the pros: In a cycled tank, how long
> does it take the bacteria to convert a huge overdose load of ammonia?
> How long would the ammonia be measurable in the water column? And,
> would there then be a similar spike in Nitrites? Could this occur,
> say, overnight, and in the morning all you'd see is dead fish and a
> higher than normal amount of Nitrates?
>
> steve


If I recall correctly, Oz had unquarantined (newly purchased) fish in
this tank for a while.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"steve" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Oh yeah, another thought: Does the tank have an undergravel filter?
> If so, then all the mulm that is being removed is not toxic or "bad",
> it's basically inert fertilizer isn't it?

No UGF. 2 X internal filters and 1 X power head.

Oz.


--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
. ..

> If I recall correctly, Oz had unquarantined (newly purchased) fish in this
> tank for a while.

Correct. Quarantine is important and necessary, I've just discovered ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Alan Wright]

"David C. Stone" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, NetMax
> > wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >
> > ps: for those in the trade and in the know, when we really need
accuracy,
> > we know which tester to use, for example pH would be manufacturer XYZ in
> > the XX range, and for hardness, use manufacturer ABC, for ammonia use
> > manufacturer HHH, etc etc. I won't name names, because I don't think
> > it's appropriate in this kind of a public forum, *and* I don't think it
> > should really matter. Just use your test kits consistently, from the
> > same manufacturer, and look at your readings with tongue in cheek, while
> > noting the numbers for comparison to earlier/later measurements. hth
: )
>
> I would be interested in knowing, since I run pH, hardness, ammonia etc.
> measurements on fish tank water as part of a lab. course I run. Can
> you send the info to me at dstone at chem dot toronto dot edu?
>
> Thanks!

I have found that it pays to do some kind of rough calibration to get
confidence in a kit. I use bottled mineral water and municipal tap water as
calibration points, typically for nitrate. The analysis done by the bottling
or utility company seems to be reliable (on average?). As most kits don't
tell me enough to know which reagent ages quickly I like to get some idea of
how it's performing - better to use up a few tests to get confidence in a
kit than panic over a single result.

I definitely agree about consistency being the key, whether it's testing,
water changes etc.

Alan

[Vicki PS]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>. I've lost 50% of
> my Neons now, but I expected them to go with in a month any way, as I'm
not
> a big fan of mass bred neons (ours here come from Asia - usually
Singapore,
> Thailand or Malaysia) and I was worried they'd be weaker than the average
> right from the start and that appears so.
>
> Cardinals are looking more attractive and always have been - it's the
price
> of them that prevents me getting some.

I wouldn't write off the neons. I've had few problems with neons from my
lfs (in Qld). I've got them from three different batches, and lost none to
disease. One got munched by a bigger fish, and two expired during a
heatwave, but other than that I've found them to be pretty resilient.

I know there is a lot of concern about weakness in mass-bred neons, and
perhaps I've just been lucky. I'm on friendly terms with my lfs owner, and
he'll always tell me if there have been problems with any new stock. Every
time I've bought neons, they've been from stock that has been in the store
for a fortnight or more and proven sound eg. minimal losses (eg. 3 or 4 out
of 200).

BTW, I got some pristellas for a tank I set up in at the office, and they've
proven very hardy and quite attractive.

Vicki PS

[Ozdude]

"Vicki PS" > wrote in message
u...
> I wouldn't write off the neons. I've had few problems with neons from my
> lfs (in Qld). I've got them from three different batches, and lost none
> to
> disease. One got munched by a bigger fish, and two expired during a
> heatwave, but other than that I've found them to be pretty resilient.

I've got 3 only out of 11 left. I'm afraid that's it for me, for now, with
this species.

My Black Neons have made it through thick and thin and I still have all of
them and they are a better looking and easier to care for fish imo. I'll
probably get another 6 of them some time in the future because they look
great when they shoal. They are timid eaters though, but of all the species
of Tetra I have in the big tank, these are the ones that will not over eat
and are the most peaceful.

Cardinals are still an appropiate option on the Tetra front, but my next
aquisition will be 10 Lemon Tetras, and I've had a few days to comtemplate,
and I think more Gouramis would be best for the bigger fish.

The Lyretail Sword is preganant, so when she gets really gravid I'll get her
out and save the fry and that's where I'll get the replacement male swords
from (if she has any).

My eye is on a 100L square tank at the LFS I frequent, so all the currently
inappropriate fish (Hard water types -,like swords and Mystery Snails etc.)
will be going into that tank. That's a while off though - perhaps 2 months
from where I sit now.

In my contemplation and seeing the main tank's pH is on the lower side of
neutral most of the time now it's settled, I'll stay with a mainly Tetras
and Gourami Tank. My single male Honey is such a trouper - he gets on in a
very friendly manner even with the Serpae, so a couple of Blue Dwarfs and
another male Honey should go nicely.

I've lost 3 of my 4 SAE's and I think No4 will go over tonight (the smallest
one), so that's it for me as well with bottom dwellers. I've lost 5 all
together now, since I started and I figure I don't really need them - the
Tetras (various of the bigger ones) and the Gourami do a pretty good job of
picking the substrate etc...they are just more mouths to feed.

It was nice to have them and I know where I can get SAE's now, but....
Interestingly I bought my SAE's for A$3.90 each and I saw them again (new
stocks) at the LFS where I bought them and the price had shot up to A$6.95
each - so I'm glad I didn't have 4 higher priced ones die off ;)


>
> I know there is a lot of concern about weakness in mass-bred neons, and
> perhaps I've just been lucky. I'm on friendly terms with my lfs owner,
> and
> he'll always tell me if there have been problems with any new stock.
> Every
> time I've bought neons, they've been from stock that has been in the store
> for a fortnight or more and proven sound eg. minimal losses (eg. 3 or 4
> out
> of 200).

They seem to be just too fragile on the whole to be totally honest with you.
Mine didn't all die off what-ever infection was in my tank - some of them
died from stress - the stress of their own and other species chasing them.
The three that are left even twirl around and chase each other, and they
don't spend a lot of time together - they certainly don't shoal like I was
expecting them too. I think Cardinals probably would, but then again I've
thought that about all the Tetras I've got and they do it to an extent, but
mostly they are all over the tank.

I don't think the Tetra stock was to blame actually - I think it's just one
of the more fragile tetra species out there.
>
> BTW, I got some pristellas for a tank I set up in at the office, and
> they've
> proven very hardy and quite attractive.

Nice! I didn't know these Tetras until I just Googled. Also known as the
X-Ray huh? ;) Nice looking fish and they are vary hardy apparently. Don't
give me more stocking ideas ;) I may ask the LFS to get some in if she can -
they should go well with what I've got.

Regards,

Oz, and his all Tetra tank :)

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith