How Fast Do CO2 Get Absorbed?

[Watercress]

I am new in this CO2 injection game. I have set up a DIY CO2 generator
a few days ago. I see the solution fizzing slowly, but I dont see any
bubble emerging from my porcelain airstone that I am using as a
diffuser. I think my set up is air tight enough, so I concluded that
the CO2 is getting dissolved through the pores in the airstone. That
suggests a very quick dissolving rate.

What are your experience?

[Margolis]

Is your ph dropping?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Ozdude]

"Watercress" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am new in this CO2 injection game. I have set up a DIY CO2 generator
> a few days ago. I see the solution fizzing slowly, but I dont see any
> bubble emerging from my porcelain airstone that I am using as a
> diffuser. I think my set up is air tight enough, so I concluded that
> the CO2 is getting dissolved through the pores in the airstone. That
> suggests a very quick dissolving rate.
>
> What are your experience?

I've found it depends on the depth of the stone in the tank. It takes more
pressure to express through the stone on the bottom of the tank than it does
at the top.

Have you tried lifting the stone to just below the water surface to see if
bubbles come out there? If they do then lower the stone until they stop and
then place it just above that lower level - you can use this method as a
crude regulator.

Also after a couple of days your pH will drop a bit if it's diffusing into
the water column, which is an indication it's working.

If your buffering and pH are too high though you may not notice an effect at
all.

You don't say how much you are generating (2 bottles, 1 bottle etc...) or
how big the tank is either.

It all helps us to determine what the issue may be.

IMO, it sounds like you have a CO2 pressure problem at this stage. I was
amazed at what I thought was air tight seals weren't actually. I could smell
the CO2 in the container where the bottles were - it turned out there was a
pin prick sized leak in one of the silicon seals on a bottle cap.

I use electrical tape around the cap to bottle seal and on the T-connector
joints to make double sure there are no leaks ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Watercress]

OK. I had a leak. Very embarrassing. Anyway. I was surprised at how
much air pressure it took to drive the CO2 through the porcelain
airstone. Now that I have fixed the seal problem adequately, I am
running the air tube into my Fluval Plus air intake. I am seeing a
bubble every second or so, which is immediately broken up by the water
flow out of my in-tank filter. The pH dropped from 7.0 to 6.4 in a
couple of hours. I guess I have soft water.

Just as an FYI: I am using a 2-litre soda bottle with its original
cap. I drilled a hole in the middle of the cap and put a small flanged
metal tubing through it. I believe they call it a compressor. I
sealed the gap using glue from a hot-glue gun. It is not the best of
sealant but it will have to do for now. Total cost about 50 cents.

[Ozdude]

"Watercress" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> OK. I had a leak. Very embarrassing.

Don't be so hard on yourself! We aren't born with CO2 leak detectors and I'm
sure all of us DIY types have had leaking seals at some point - I know I
have ;)

> Anyway. I was surprised at how
> much air pressure it took to drive the CO2 through the porcelain
> airstone. Now that I have fixed the seal problem adequately, I am
> running the air tube into my Fluval Plus air intake. I am seeing a
> bubble every second or so, which is immediately broken up by the water
> flow out of my in-tank filter. The pH dropped from 7.0 to 6.4 in a
> couple of hours. I guess I have soft water.

How are the fish? It sounds to me as though your buffering may be a little
on the low side. Have you checked your hardness? You can have high pH and a
low buffer. Be careful. It it drops any more then I'd be worried. If you get
a pH crash I don't think I need to inform of what could happen.
>
> Just as an FYI: I am using a 2-litre soda bottle with its original
> cap. I drilled a hole in the middle of the cap and put a small flanged
> metal tubing through it. I believe they call it a compressor. I
> sealed the gap using glue from a hot-glue gun. It is not the best of
> sealant but it will have to do for now. Total cost about 50 cents.

I used silicon on mine but I had to cover the whole cap inside and out to
get a seal.

One the bottle gets full pressure up you won't have many problems injecting
at any depth ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Margolis]

what is your kh? You need to know that to determine the proper the level of
co2. Also, what is the tank size?

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Watercress]

Margolis wrote:
> what is your kh? You need to know that to determine the proper the
level of
> co2. Also, what is the tank size?
>
In terms of German units it was a 2. I since added baking soda to
raise it to a 5. 39Gal tank.

> --
>
> Margolis
>
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
> http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Watercress]

Ok the buffer is a little low. I added some baking soda to bring up
the KH from 2 German units to 5. I also added some Dolomite to get
some Ca and Mg to the tank. Actually I added too much Dolomite, the GH
is at 9 German units now.

As for you question on my fish, well, most are doing great. The only
exception are my Zebra Danios. They are dropping like flies. I wonder
why since they are suppose to be the toughest. They have sunken
stomaches and looked like they were starving to death.

I am currently trying to get my phosphate level down. I didn't know I
had a phosphate problem (almost 5 ppm) since I don't have much of an
algae problem. Anyway I was surprised. So I changed some water and
added some nitrate and potassium. Today it is at 2.5ppm.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
>As for you question on my fish, well, most are doing great. The only
>exception are my Zebra Danios. They are dropping like flies. I wonder
>why since they are suppose to be the toughest. They have sunken
>stomaches and looked like they were starving to death.

How long have they been this way? Any other external symptoms?

>I am currently trying to get my phosphate level down. I didn't know I
>had a phosphate problem (almost 5 ppm) since I don't have much of an
>algae problem. Anyway I was surprised. So I changed some water and
>added some nitrate and potassium. Today it is at 2.5ppm.

My target for PO4 is 3ppm. You're fine there.

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[Watercress]

No other external symtom, just a gradual wasting away. They started
dying off since I moved my long fin Zebra Danios with my regular Zebra
Danios. That was about 2 months ago. I used to have 16 of them
combined. Now, maybe about 6. The thing that puzzles me is that the
other fish are doing so well. The glass fish looked well fed and
showed significant growth. So is my pleco and angelfish. These are
suppose to be delicate compared to the Zebras. I suspect it is some
kind of species specific disease. Oh well.

As for the phosphate level, I am at a loss about it. The reason is
that I lost confidence on my nitrate test. WIthout a way to gauge
nitrate level, my strategy is to lower my phosphate.

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Watercress > wrote:
>No other external symtom, just a gradual wasting away. They started
>dying off since I moved my long fin Zebra Danios with my regular Zebra
>Danios. That was about 2 months ago. I used to have 16 of them
>combined. Now, maybe about 6. The thing that puzzles me is that the
>other fish are doing so well. The glass fish looked well fed and
>showed significant growth. So is my pleco and angelfish. These are
>suppose to be delicate compared to the Zebras. I suspect it is some
>kind of species specific disease. Oh well.

There really aren't many species specific diseases. Pretty much
all fish get fish diseases. The wasting away part is some cause
for alarm. Are the feces white and stringy? Either way
mycobacteriosis is probably and you need to be extra careful
around this tank if this is so or even suspected of being so:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/

>As for the phosphate level, I am at a loss about it. The reason is
>that I lost confidence on my nitrate test. WIthout a way to gauge
>nitrate level, my strategy is to lower my phosphate.

If it were me, or rather when I'm in this position I jsut
change nearly all the water, twice, over 24 hors, then
dose "normally".


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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> In article . com>,
> Watercress > wrote:
>
>>No other external symtom, just a gradual wasting away. They started
>>dying off since I moved my long fin Zebra Danios with my regular Zebra
>>Danios. That was about 2 months ago. I used to have 16 of them
>>combined. Now, maybe about 6. The thing that puzzles me is that the
>>other fish are doing so well. The glass fish looked well fed and
>>showed significant growth. So is my pleco and angelfish. These are
>>suppose to be delicate compared to the Zebras. I suspect it is some
>>kind of species specific disease. Oh well.
>
>
> There really aren't many species specific diseases. Pretty much
> all fish get fish diseases. The wasting away part is some cause
> for alarm. Are the feces white and stringy? Either way
> mycobacteriosis is probably and you need to be extra careful
> around this tank if this is so or even suspected of being so:
>
> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>
>
Have you considered quarantining the sick zebras so they don't infect
the rest of the tank? Your healthy fish are particularly likely to get
infected if one dies and the others pick at it. In quarantine, you
could try something like Melafix.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard Sexton]

>> There really aren't many species specific diseases. Pretty much
>> all fish get fish diseases. The wasting away part is some cause
>> for alarm. Are the feces white and stringy? Either way
>> mycobacteriosis is probably and you need to be extra careful
>> around this tank if this is so or even suspected of being so:
>>
>> http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>>
>>
>Have you considered quarantining the sick zebras so they don't infect
>the rest of the tank? Your healthy fish are particularly likely to get
>infected if one dies and the others pick at it. In quarantine, you
>could try something like Melafix.

Good call. I got an interesting email from Jim Lamghammer tonight
in response to a question about columnaris. He's a pretty renown
aquarist and past curator of fished at the Detroit aquarium. He
said he's never seen Columnaris and the vast majority of fish
diseases are protozoal.

Melafix, copper or acriflavine is what I'd try. Definiely
isolate them and watch the other fish very carefully.

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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>There really aren't many species specific diseases. Pretty much
>>>all fish get fish diseases. The wasting away part is some cause
>>>for alarm. Are the feces white and stringy? Either way
>>>mycobacteriosis is probably and you need to be extra careful
>>>around this tank if this is so or even suspected of being so:
>>>
>>>http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Have you considered quarantining the sick zebras so they don't infect
>>the rest of the tank? Your healthy fish are particularly likely to get
>>infected if one dies and the others pick at it. In quarantine, you
>>could try something like Melafix.
>
> Good call. I got an interesting email from Jim Lamghammer tonight
> in response to a question about columnaris. He's a pretty renown
> aquarist and past curator of fished at the Detroit aquarium. He
> said he's never seen Columnaris and the vast majority of fish
> diseases are protozoal.
>
That fits with what Dennis Hare, owner of Aquarium Center where I
worked, told me. Remember I said that he told me real Flexibacter
infection is rare? He and our disease guy actually plated stuff out and
used a microscope to identify infections and test for antibiotic
susceptiblity so I am certain he is correct at least for the shipments
we were getting into the store. He kept protozoal infections under
control by running all the FW system except the plant tanks where the
shrimp were kept with low amounts of salt and copper.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard Sexton]

>>>>
>>>>http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Have you considered quarantining the sick zebras so they don't infect
>>>the rest of the tank? Your healthy fish are particularly likely to get
>>>infected if one dies and the others pick at it. In quarantine, you
>>>could try something like Melafix.
>>
>> Good call. I got an interesting email from Jim Lamghammer tonight
>> in response to a question about columnaris. He's a pretty renown
>> aquarist and past curator of fished at the Detroit aquarium. He
>> said he's never seen Columnaris and the vast majority of fish
>> diseases are protozoal.
>>
>That fits with what Dennis Hare, owner of Aquarium Center where I
>worked, told me. Remember I said that he told me real Flexibacter
>infection is rare? He and our disease guy actually plated stuff out and
>used a microscope to identify infections and test for antibiotic
>susceptiblity so I am certain he is correct at least for the shipments
>we were getting into the store. He kept protozoal infections under
>control by running all the FW system except the plant tanks where the
>shrimp were kept with low amounts of salt and copper.

He cultured them and didn't find columnaris? Geez I wish you'd mentioend that
before. Although there are many knwledagble fish store employees and
owners a lot are utterly clueless and spew all sorts of bad misinformation,
as they worked in K-Mart the week prior selling shoes. It's tough to know
the difference.

It's become accepted (at least around here) that if bettas fins rot off
and they become lethargic and have bloody streaks to the fins it's flex.

Jim telling me it's velve (Oodinium) or Costia made me think "yeah right,
I know what velvet looks like don't be daft". Which shows the danger of
a closed mind. I have the greatest respect for Jim and I hate to say it
but if most other people told me what he did I'd think they're crazy
and ignore them. It's official - I'm an idiot.

I just looked now with a flashlight - oh golly look at all those little
sand colord dots - its velvet alright.

And people around this are have been treating this with antibiotics,
and one even told me they're ok because they use a "low dose" thus
further increasing by one sample at least the possability of more
antibiotic resistant Mycobacteria. Great. Oh, just frigging perfect.

I've railed against the use of copper for decades - toxic to
invertebrates and it precicpitates out and can come back when the pH changes
and if you/ve dosed more than one what can come back is a lethal dose,
but ths incident here just changed my mind 180 degrees. Copper
kills most everything nasy and it seems clear removal of the fish
and treating with things like acriflavine or copper is prudent;
protozoans don'tlast long at all without their fish host so
once the fish is better returning him tothis now emptry tank is
quite safe.

--
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[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>>>http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Have you considered quarantining the sick zebras so they don't infect
>>>>the rest of the tank? Your healthy fish are particularly likely to get
>>>>infected if one dies and the others pick at it. In quarantine, you
>>>>could try something like Melafix.
>>>
>>>Good call. I got an interesting email from Jim Lamghammer tonight
>>>in response to a question about columnaris. He's a pretty renown
>>>aquarist and past curator of fished at the Detroit aquarium. He
>>>said he's never seen Columnaris and the vast majority of fish
>>>diseases are protozoal.
>>>
>>
>>That fits with what Dennis Hare, owner of Aquarium Center where I
>>worked, told me. Remember I said that he told me real Flexibacter
>>infection is rare? He and our disease guy actually plated stuff out and
>>used a microscope to identify infections and test for antibiotic
>>susceptiblity so I am certain he is correct at least for the shipments
>>we were getting into the store. He kept protozoal infections under
>>control by running all the FW system except the plant tanks where the
>>shrimp were kept with low amounts of salt and copper.
>
>
> He cultured them and didn't find columnaris? Geez I wish you'd mentioend that
> before. Although there are many knwledagble fish store employees and
> owners a lot are utterly clueless and spew all sorts of bad misinformation,
> as they worked in K-Mart the week prior selling shoes. It's tough to know
> the difference.

Sorry - I didn't think about the cultures when I wrote the post. I
believe Dennis even used to occasionally write for TFH. He preferred to
just run the store and hang out with the fish, though. Aquarium Center
in Balitimore is so well known on the East coast that people drove 2-3
hours down from Wilmington and Philadelphia and up from Northern
Virginia to buy fish there, passing dozens of other LFS on the way. In
wintertime on the weekends, we sent dozens of boxes of fish and SW
inverts out in styrofoam boxes for the long ride home.
>
> It's become accepted (at least around here) that if bettas fins rot off
> and they become lethargic and have bloody streaks to the fins it's flex.
>
The few times we had a tank with cultured flex it looked fluffy and
white like fungus. To tell them apart, fungus is always a secondary
infection because it only grows on dead tissue, showing up on rotted
fins or an injured area, and is not usually contagious. (I'm sure you
know all this, Richard.) Flex usually shows up on both the mouth and
fins and does not require a pre-existing injury. Flex is quite
contagious, even in it's non-virulent form, so you usually see many fish
in a tank in various stages of infection.

> Jim telling me it's velve (Oodinium) or Costia made me think "yeah right,
> I know what velvet looks like don't be daft". Which shows the danger of
> a closed mind. I have the greatest respect for Jim and I hate to say it
> but if most other people told me what he did I'd think they're crazy
> and ignore them. It's official - I'm an idiot.
>
> I just looked now with a flashlight - oh golly look at all those little
> sand colord dots - its velvet alright.
>
> And people around this are have been treating this with antibiotics,
> and one even told me they're ok because they use a "low dose" thus
> further increasing by one sample at least the possability of more
> antibiotic resistant Mycobacteria. Great. Oh, just frigging perfect.

*shudder* A "low dose" of antibiotic sounds as destructive as it can
get. It will fail to cure the fish AND make bugs resistant.
>
> I've railed against the use of copper for decades - toxic to
> invertebrates and it precicpitates out and can come back when the pH changes
> and if you/ve dosed more than one what can come back is a lethal dose,
> but ths incident here just changed my mind 180 degrees. Copper
> kills most everything nasy and it seems clear removal of the fish
> and treating with things like acriflavine or copper is prudent;
> protozoans don'tlast long at all without their fish host so
> once the fish is better returning him tothis now emptry tank is
> quite safe.
>

NetMax has recommended this site for accurate information and it has a
lot on velvet and how to treat it. Doesn't sound like any fun.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/othprotist.shtml

I think Dennis used Quick Cure (formalin/malachite) along with the small
amounts of salt and copper that was already in the tank. He did darken
the tanks, since velvet can photosynthesize. For a commercial operation
Quick Cure is a good choice despite the toxicity because you've got to
get your livestock well fast and back out to sell. There's a constant
tradeoff between the amount of valuable time you're spending nursing
sick fish back to health vs. the cost of a shipment of common,
inexpensive fish. I think maybe a slower cure with heat, salt, darkness
and some copper is a better cure for a treasured pet.

Copper has its place. I usually treat fish-only tanks with a dose
copper before introducing a new fish even from quarantine. That way if
the new introduction stresses an existing fish with a silent parasite
infection, the copper will catch it. I never saw a single spot of FW
ich the whole time I worked at Dennis' store because of the salt and
copper. He tested copper levels daily, and was always walking around
with his refractometer in his shirt pocket. I wish I knew exactly what
he used - he recommended 1 tsp/gallon salt plus Aquarisol weekly for
customers' tanks.

I think Hexamita is another underdiagnosed protozoan in discus,
angelfish, and Oscars in rec.aquaria.*. Everyone thinks it only causes
HLLE, but it can cause internal wasting infections, or external sores in
places other than the head and lateral line. Hexamita should be
immediately suspected in sick cichlids, and considered in anabantids as
well.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
>> And people around this are have been treating this with antibiotics,
>> and one even told me they're ok because they use a "low dose" thus
>> further increasing by one sample at least the possability of more
>> antibiotic resistant Mycobacteria. Great. Oh, just frigging perfect.
>
>*shudder* A "low dose" of antibiotic sounds as destructive as it can
>get. It will fail to cure the fish AND make bugs resistant.

Exactly. OMG...

>
>NetMax has recommended this site for accurate information and it has a
>lot on velvet and how to treat it. Doesn't sound like any fun.
>
>http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/othprotist.shtml

Kinda wordy. "dose with acriflavine" works.

Velvet is very well understood by killi keepers. Salt cures it. Copper
or silver cures it. Scheel keps copper bars (!) in his killi tanks
to prevent it.

I've seeminly inadvertantly cures it by daily water changes in by betta
bowls, only a fiah in a tank that gets only weekly water changes has it
now and I just dumped him into a bowl of acriflavine. I chose Acriflavine
because, well, I have some. It's 30 years old (!) but doen't seem to age;
I cured the fish that came in infected with this stuff thinking it was
columnaris.

>I think Hexamita is another underdiagnosed protozoan in discus,
>angelfish, and Oscars in rec.aquaria.*. Everyone thinks it only causes
>HLLE, but it can cause internal wasting infections, or external sores in
>places other than the head and lateral line. Hexamita should be
>immediately suspected in sick cichlids, and considered in anabantids as
>well.

Different pathogens seem to affect some families of fosh more than
others. Gouramis and some killies are prone to velvet.

Untergasser has an interesting write up of HITH pointing out that whereas
it was believed Hexamita was responsible for it infected (affected?) fish
have been autopsied and no trac of it has ben found and that they
were cured by improving their diet.

Other things I learned that I didn't know before by reading this is
that a strict diet of beef heart or white worms can cause this
as its nutritionally incomplete and he has found clogged intestines
in discus, block by undigested beef heart. Now I'm going to claim
(perhaps incorrectly so) that because I gut-load white worms with
a health food product called "Sunshine Green Zone" continaing spirulina
and about 30 other herbs I can get away with this. The just may
still be out on this one but I have been doing this for a few years.

The greatest revelation however is his claim that dried food should be thrown
away after two months because the vitamins break down and if there is any
chance of mould this can lead to the productions of Afalotoxins which
are mutagenic, carcinogenic and toxic in parts per BILLION.

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[Watercress]

Didn't notice anything about the feces of the sick fish. I doubt if
they have anything to contribute. The output of the other fishes are
all normal. I have actually seen substantial growth of the other fish
over the last couple of months For example, my pleco was clearly
bigger.

[Watercress]

I'll do it if there are any sick Zebras left. The population of my
Zebras have been decreasing over the last month or two. I suspect that
the other fish have already been exposed to whatever that was killing
the Zebras. Of course, there is the possibility that the Zebras just
died from old age. I read that Zebras live only up to 3 years.