New poster introduction

[Bill]

[Deleting the References: line and changing the subject line to avoid
hijacking the old thread.]

On 2005-03-04, NetMax > wrote:
> Welcome to the group. I've often positioned canister filter intakes to
> collect some air bubble streams. It helps break up the surface tension
> and that 'protein slick' that sometimes appears. Doing this has never
> caused me problems, but on some older canisters, it may cause the filter
> to break suction as the air collects in a pocket near the impeller.
> Don't try this (collecting air bubble streams) with powerfilters, as the
> bubbles block the filter media and push the sponge upwards through the
> filter.

Thanks for the welcome and the information. It's a box filter hanging
on the back -- judging from the filter FAQ, I'd say it's a power filter.
Is that correct?

> I recommend you put some ammonia in the tank to start a fishless cycle
> (unless you have a friend who will give you some aged filter media).
> Research fishless cycling under new tank syndrome. One of the FAQs is
> http://faq.thekrib.com/

Thanks for the pointer to the FAQ -- I've already read it several times.
;-) I believe I first started reading the FAQ and other things in
December.

The tank is a 20H. (We probably would have gone a little larger but for
the way events played out, which is a longer story.) We wound up
getting a boxed Top Fin kit -- the filter is a Top Fin 20 that hangs on
the back. We plan to get one in the 55-to-80-gallon range in a few
months and convert this one to a dwarf puffer species tank, maybe with
an oto or three. In the tank are two plastic plants, a bubble wand, a
small cave, a plant holder (currently containing the shorter plastic
plant), a bubble wand, and 25 pounds of gravel (to a depth of around
1.75"). It sits on a black All-Glass wooden stand.

We have a friend that is willing to give us some used filter media (and
some juvenile African cichlids -- offspring of calico and albino
peacocks of some sort, I thnk), but she's rather old-school in her
approach. (She won't give them to us until we've completed a two-week
new-tank regimen with Stress-Zyme, for example.)

We're in Phoenix, and our water hardness is just shy of your liquid
rock, NetMax. :-) (The latest annual water quality report is at
<ftp://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/pub/payf/qualre03.pdf>.) It's chlorine, not
chloramine, at least for now. (Tested empirically with an ammonia
tester after adding a dechlorinator.) I'll have to monitor that
periodically, though, as I've heard rumors of chloramine being used.
The pH level is between 8.0 and 8.4 out of the tap (depending on if you
go by my judgement of the color on the test or my wife's). We set the
tank up this past Sunday evening. I tested pH Tuesday evening, and it
was roughly the same. Seems like our water would be great for the
African cichlids or a marine tank at some point. ;-) I don't know the
specific kH and gH numbers; the report doesn't give them, and I haven't
gotten test kits for those (at least not yet). We have the Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit.

We're kind of shying away from the African cichlids for right now, since
there are other fish which we'd like to keep that probably wouldn't get
along so well with them. And we don't want to add any fish right now,
since we just booked tickets for three weeks for now for a weekend trip,
Thursday evening through Sunday mid-day, so I'm probably going to start
a fishless cycle this evening. I can probably still get filter media
from our friend, even if we don't take the cichlids. (She'll give them
to an LFS if she doesn't find takers.)

I got some eyedroppers last night since I don't like the idea of dunking
the test tubes in the tank and risking contamination with the testing
chemicals, and also for adding the ammonia. Also bought "The Simple
Guide to Freshwater Aquariums" by David Boruchowitz (ISBN
0-7938-2101-0). I've read about a third of it, and it seems really good
so far. (I probably wouldn't have bought a book had the FAQ not
recommended it, but I do really like this one.)

I haven't really found this addressed: Before sticking my hands in the
tank, should I wash them? I don't feel comfortable sticking my hands in
the tank without washing them, but I also don't feel comfortable
reaching in there after just having smeared toxic soap all over them.
Do I wash my hands and rinse *really* *really* well? Do I just rinse
and dry with a paper towel? Do I wash, rinse, dry, rinse, dry with
paper towel? Or is there some other preferred method?

If you've made it this far, thanks for reading. :-)

[Elaine T]

Bill wrote:

> I haven't really found this addressed: Before sticking my hands in the
> tank, should I wash them? I don't feel comfortable sticking my hands in
> the tank without washing them, but I also don't feel comfortable
> reaching in there after just having smeared toxic soap all over them.
> Do I wash my hands and rinse *really* *really* well? Do I just rinse
> and dry with a paper towel? Do I wash, rinse, dry, rinse, dry with
> paper towel? Or is there some other preferred method?
>
> If you've made it this far, thanks for reading. :-)

Yes, wash your hands or wear gloves. Your skin is covered with oils
that will end up floating on the surface of the tank water if you don't.
Use a plain soap like Ivory or your dish detergent rather than a
lotion soap, moisturizing soap or deodorant soap. Rinsing well once is
fine. Your carbon should scavenge any stray soap anyway.

Also, wear gloves if you have cuts on your hands. Sometimes bacteria
that can infect humans are present in fishtanks.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Fishy Fish]

Risse with warm/hot water only..

[NetMax]

"Bill" > wrote in message
news:yk0Wd.39394$Tt.5229@fed1read05...
> [Deleting the References: line and changing the subject line to avoid
> hijacking the old thread.]
>
> On 2005-03-04, NetMax > wrote:
>> Welcome to the group. I've often positioned canister filter intakes
>> to
>> collect some air bubble streams. It helps break up the surface
>> tension
>> and that 'protein slick' that sometimes appears. Doing this has never
>> caused me problems, but on some older canisters, it may cause the
>> filter
>> to break suction as the air collects in a pocket near the impeller.
>> Don't try this (collecting air bubble streams) with powerfilters, as
>> the
>> bubbles block the filter media and push the sponge upwards through the
>> filter.
>
> Thanks for the welcome and the information. It's a box filter hanging
> on the back -- judging from the filter FAQ, I'd say it's a power
> filter.
> Is that correct?

Correct, though there are canisters which hang on the back of a tank too
(but they are not in very wide usage).

>> I recommend you put some ammonia in the tank to start a fishless cycle
>> (unless you have a friend who will give you some aged filter media).
>> Research fishless cycling under new tank syndrome. One of the FAQs is
>> http://faq.thekrib.com/
>
> Thanks for the pointer to the FAQ -- I've already read it several
> times.
> ;-) I believe I first started reading the FAQ and other things in
> December.
>
> The tank is a 20H. (We probably would have gone a little larger but
> for
> the way events played out, which is a longer story.)

Nothing wrong with a 20g. Even if you had the space for a larger tank,
you would probably find yourself needing a smaller tank like a 20g for
quarantining, or raising baby fish etc. If you can get a 20g humming
along the way you like for a few months, then a larger tank will be a
cake-walk (much easier ;~).

> We wound up
> getting a boxed Top Fin kit -- the filter is a Top Fin 20 that hangs on
> the back. We plan to get one in the 55-to-80-gallon range in a few
> months and convert this one to a dwarf puffer species tank, maybe with
> an oto or three. In the tank are two plastic plants, a bubble wand, a
> small cave, a plant holder (currently containing the shorter plastic
> plant), a bubble wand, and 25 pounds of gravel (to a depth of around
> 1.75"). It sits on a black All-Glass wooden stand.

The starter kits are a great way to start (I even have a page on my site
about them). While they do not use the best individual components, the
mark-up is kept quite low, so if it doesn't work out, you haven't lost a
lot of money.

> We have a friend that is willing to give us some used filter media (and
> some juvenile African cichlids -- offspring of calico and albino
> peacocks of some sort, I thnk), but she's rather old-school in her
> approach. (She won't give them to us until we've completed a two-week
> new-tank regimen with Stress-Zyme, for example.)

It used to be thought that aging water was very important (and this is
not completely untrue either). In a properly circulated tank, 24 hours
will be sufficient to drive off any extra gases and chlorine. If your
municipality uses chloramines, then you use a de-chlorinator. Another
reason for having a delay was to ensure that your equipment is working
properly. Heaters weren't always as reliable as they are today, so
letting a tank run for a week was good practise. Note that the heater
which comes in a starter kit is usually the older technology, using an
analog bi-metal contact. They work, but don't feel bad about buying a
submersible digital heater and keeping the starter kit heater as a spare.

I believe Stress-Zyme is one of the nitrifying bacteria formulas on the
market. It really won't do too much unless you have a source of ammonia
(ie: fish) to keep those bacteria alive.

Getting a few starter fish from a friend can be a mixed blessing. If
your interest is in the type of fish being received, then it's great. If
you find yourself leaning towards something else in a few months, then
you might find a changing of the guard to be a bit of trouble (where to
take them, having to catch them and transport them). In a 20g, this is
not so bad, but when you get into larger tanks, you become much more
careful about your choices ;~).

Also, certain fish are more territorial, so adding more fish to the mix
becomes problematic. While Peacocks are not the worst, they are also not
known for their sharing generousity when new fish are added a month
later. This is not intended to discourage you, just some of the
interesting parameters of stocking and operating an aquarium, and
fore-warned is fore-armed : ).

> We're in Phoenix, and our water hardness is just shy of your liquid
> rock, NetMax. :-) (The latest annual water quality report is at
> <ftp://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/pub/payf/qualre03.pdf>.) It's chlorine,
> not
> chloramine, at least for now. (Tested empirically with an ammonia
> tester after adding a dechlorinator.) I'll have to monitor that
> periodically, though, as I've heard rumors of chloramine being used.
> The pH level is between 8.0 and 8.4 out of the tap (depending on if you
> go by my judgement of the color on the test or my wife's).

Female colour acuity is slightly better than a male's. I often double
check my test results with one of my daughters. Have a strong source of
natural indirect light and look perpendicularly to the tube for the
intensity and down the tube for the shade. Note that my colour
perception advice will be suspect as I'm not a woman. Mauve and fushia
don't fall into my 8 primary colour range (notwithstanding the various
and distinct amber shades of beer ;~).

Pour a glass of water and let it sit for 24 hours before testing the pH.
This will give you a more accurate reading. Reviewing your water report,
I think you will find your water parameters will be very seasonal. They
use a multiple of different water sources feeding 5 treatment plants.
Hopefully you are running off one treatment plant which primarily gets
its water from a single type of source, and you are not located too
closely to the plant, so you aren't affected by their weekly cycles (if
they are not 24 hour automated). Proximity to plant is actually more of
a problem for sof****er sources, so you probably have no concerns with
proximity, but ymmv.

> We set the
> tank up this past Sunday evening. I tested pH Tuesday evening, and it
> was roughly the same. Seems like our water would be great for the
> African cichlids or a marine tank at some point. ;-) I don't know the
> specific kH and gH numbers; the report doesn't give them, and I haven't
> gotten test kits for those (at least not yet). We have the Aquarium
> Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit.

The numbers are in the report:
Hardness, minimum: 189, maximum: 269 ppm.
In aquarium terms, your hardness potentially varies between 11 and 15dgH.

Alkalinity, minimum: 106, maximum: 219 ppm.
In aquarium terms, your buffer potentially varies between 6 and 12 dkH.

The pH varies from 7.0 to 8.2. Note that these are the combined results
from the 5 plants, so the particular plant which you are serviced by,
will probably have a narrower range of parameters.

> We're kind of shying away from the African cichlids for right now,
> since
> there are other fish which we'd like to keep that probably wouldn't get
> along so well with them. And we don't want to add any fish right now,
> since we just booked tickets for three weeks for now for a weekend
> trip,
> Thursday evening through Sunday mid-day, so I'm probably going to start
> a fishless cycle this evening. I can probably still get filter media
> from our friend, even if we don't take the cichlids. (She'll give them
> to an LFS if she doesn't find takers.)
>
> I got some eyedroppers last night since I don't like the idea of
> dunking
> the test tubes in the tank and risking contamination with the testing
> chemicals, and also for adding the ammonia. Also bought "The Simple
> Guide to Freshwater Aquariums" by David Boruchowitz (ISBN
> 0-7938-2101-0). I've read about a third of it, and it seems really
> good
> so far. (I probably wouldn't have bought a book had the FAQ not
> recommended it, but I do really like this one.)

For water tests, I use syringes which come with inkjet refill kits. They
hold 6ml, so they are ideal for the standard 5ml load.

In my opinion, you cannot work without some good reference books. Even
with the deluge of information on the internet, I'm still dog-earing
about half a dozen good text books on my desk.

> I haven't really found this addressed: Before sticking my hands in the
> tank, should I wash them? I don't feel comfortable sticking my hands
> in
> the tank without washing them, but I also don't feel comfortable
> reaching in there after just having smeared toxic soap all over them.
> Do I wash my hands and rinse *really* *really* well? Do I just rinse
> and dry with a paper towel? Do I wash, rinse, dry, rinse, dry with
> paper towel? Or is there some other preferred method?

If you have any open wounds, then you either keep out of the tank, or you
need to waterproof the wound (I've done both). While the probability of
catching something from the water is extremely low (afaik, there is only
one transmittable disease which would cause your wound to take much
longer to heal), it is not zero, so it's a good practice to follow. Also
some fish get excitable smelling blood (ie: pirahnas).

A quick rinse with warm water before going into the tank is a good idea
if you use lotions, cremes etc. Otherwise, I just generally 'dive' right
in ;~).

> If you've made it this far, thanks for reading. :-)

I hope the fishless cycle goes well. I imagine we'll be hearing more
from you, especially when you're trying to figure out what stage of the
fishless cycling you're in.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Bill]

On 2005-03-05, NetMax > wrote:
>> Thanks for the welcome and the information. It's a box filter
>> hanging on the back -- judging from the filter FAQ, I'd say it's a
>> power filter. Is that correct?
>
> Correct, though there are canisters which hang on the back of a tank too
> (but they are not in very wide usage).

Understood. We had buried the bubble wand in the gravel to hide it; I
played with it a bit the other day and unburied it. The bubbles are
much finer now (which is the effect I wanted to begin with), and the
filter pump doesn't make the frequent periodic noises it did when it
would suck it a larger bubble. We both like the way it looks, but since
the tube is now exposed, we're going to get some more decorations to
hide it.

> Nothing wrong with a 20g. Even if you had the space for a larger tank,
> you would probably find yourself needing a smaller tank like a 20g for
> quarantining, or raising baby fish etc. If you can get a 20g humming
> along the way you like for a few months, then a larger tank will be a
> cake-walk (much easier ;~).

Indeed -- we already have plans for this one to house about ten or so
dwarf puffers (and probably a couple otos) once we procure a larger one.
We have another 20H that was given to us that probably needs to have the
top frame replaced. It was a reptile aquarium that was going to be
thrown away. The frame is just slightly melted along one of the long
sides, and a lid will not stably sit on it (the frame is just a little
too long). By the time we discovered this, we'd already bought a
24"x12" stand -- the place where we got it doesn't do returns generally,
especially when the stand has already been assembled. We probably would
have chosen a 29 otherwise.

A friend told us that the top frame is easy to replace, so it's likely
we'll repair it in the future. Otherwise (or in addition), the little
10G tanks are extremely cheap and seem like they would work well for
quarantine/hospital (except for larger fish, obviously) or for fry.

> It used to be thought that aging water was very important (and this is
> not completely untrue either). In a properly circulated tank, 24 hours
> will be sufficient to drive off any extra gases and chlorine. If your
> municipality uses chloramines, then you use a de-chlorinator. Another
> reason for having a delay was to ensure that your equipment is working
> properly.

I believe that just after I read this, I came across a passage in the
book I was reading that talked about how before the nitrogen cycle was
understood, it was thought that water changes were unnecessary or even
harmful. :-) I did double-check a bucket of dechlorinated water (a
one-drop-per-gallon "tap water conditioner" by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals)
for ammonia, and found none.

> Heaters weren't always as reliable as they are today, so letting a
> tank run for a week was good practise. Note that the heater which
> comes in a starter kit is usually the older technology, using an
> analog bi-metal contact. They work, but don't feel bad about buying a
> submersible digital heater and keeping the starter kit heater as a spare.



> I believe Stress-Zyme is one of the nitrifying bacteria formulas on the
> market. It really won't do too much unless you have a source of ammonia
> (ie: fish) to keep those bacteria alive.

Indeed. I didn't realize that it was a bacterial starter at first; I
thought it was one of those slime-coat-enhancing products initially.
But it can't hurt, especially since I'm planning on a couple of massive
water changes before introducing any fish. (And she had a little bit
left in a larger bottle, so she gave that to us.)

> Getting a few starter fish from a friend can be a mixed blessing. If
> your interest is in the type of fish being received, then it's great. If
> you find yourself leaning towards something else in a few months, then
> you might find a changing of the guard to be a bit of trouble (where to
> take them, having to catch them and transport them). In a 20g, this is
> not so bad, but when you get into larger tanks, you become much more
> careful about your choices ;~).
>
> Also, certain fish are more territorial, so adding more fish to the mix
> becomes problematic. While Peacocks are not the worst, they are also not
> known for their sharing generousity when new fish are added a month
> later. This is not intended to discourage you, just some of the
> interesting parameters of stocking and operating an aquarium, and
> fore-warned is fore-armed : ).

I appreciate the advice. I wasn't too enthused about them, but my wife
wanted to give them a home. We're thinking about it now. We're not
going to introduce *any* fish for at least three weeks since we need to
go out of town for the weekend in about two and a half weeks, and if we
get fish before then, it won't be done cycling. That would just be
irresponsible. Since it's just going to be sitting, I added some
ammonia. I also started keeping a log.

> Female colour acuity is slightly better than a male's. I often double
> check my test results with one of my daughters. Have a strong source of

Part of the problem was a disagreement on how to interpret the color
shade, which we resolved through the instruction booklet.

> Pour a glass of water and let it sit for 24 hours before testing the pH.
> This will give you a more accurate reading. Reviewing your water report,
> I think you will find your water parameters will be very seasonal. They
> use a multiple of different water sources feeding 5 treatment plants.
> Hopefully you are running off one treatment plant which primarily gets
> its water from a single type of source, and you are not located too
> closely to the plant, so you aren't affected by their weekly cycles (if
> they are not 24 hour automated). Proximity to plant is actually more of
> a problem for sof****er sources, so you probably have no concerns with
> proximity, but ymmv.

Indeed. A month or two ago, we had a problem with turbidity, and people
on Phoenix water were advised to use bottled water for drinking,
cooking, and brushing teeth, or else boil the tap water first. It was
caused by unusually heavy rainfall that washed dust and accumulated dirt
to the treatment plant, combined with two plants being down for
scheduled maintenance and another being down for repair, or something
along those lines. So I imagine the water then was softer than it
normally is. As for the pH, I haven't tested it in a few days, but it
was stable after 24 hours in the tank.

> The numbers are in the report:
> Hardness, minimum: 189, maximum: 269 ppm.
> In aquarium terms, your hardness potentially varies between 11 and 15dgH.

I wasn't sure if those numbers were total hardness (gH + kH) or gH.

> A quick rinse with warm water before going into the tank is a good idea
> if you use lotions, cremes etc. Otherwise, I just generally 'dive' right
> in ;~).

Three responses and three different answers. ;-)

> I hope the fishless cycle goes well. I imagine we'll be hearing more
> from you, especially when you're trying to figure out what stage of the
> fishless cycling you're in.

The ammonia that I have must be fairly weak -- it took about 160 drops
to bring it up to 4ppm. It seemed like a lot, but I figure that I
probably only used a little over twice his recommended daily dosage from
the first paper (judging by the potential difference in concentrations
he mentioned in the second paper). According to other sources I've seen
online, excess ammonia, while beneficial to nitrosomonas (as long as the
concentration is not *too* high), can inhibit the growth of nitrobacter
until the concentration is brought down. So I'm planning on adding no
more ammonia until the concentration drops below 2 or 3ppm. Also, based
on http://tinyurl.com/53dvn, http://tinyurl.com/4z65a, and
http://www.algone.com/fishless_cycling.htm, I added some of the sample
fish food that came with the kit, so that I could get a little phosphate
in the water to promote the growth of the bacteria.

References say that fishless cycling can take 10 days to 3 weeks or
more. Since it's my understanding that nitrobacter grow more slowly
than nitrosomonas (even once they have nitrite for food), I hope to see
nitrite by this weekend. Nah, I'm not impatient.

Maybe the potential complexity scares some people away, but it was one
of the things that attracted me in the first place. :-)

[NetMax]

"Bill" > wrote in message
news:jEjXd.70145$Tt.31556@fed1read05...
> On 2005-03-05, NetMax > wrote:
>>> Thanks for the welcome and the information. It's a box filter
>>> hanging on the back -- judging from the filter FAQ, I'd say it's a
>>> power filter. Is that correct?
>>
>> Correct, though there are canisters which hang on the back of a tank
>> too
>> (but they are not in very wide usage).
>
> Understood. We had buried the bubble wand in the gravel to hide it; I
> played with it a bit the other day and unburied it. The bubbles are
> much finer now (which is the effect I wanted to begin with), and the
> filter pump doesn't make the frequent periodic noises it did when it
> would suck it a larger bubble. We both like the way it looks, but
> since
> the tube is now exposed, we're going to get some more decorations to
> hide it.
>
>> Nothing wrong with a 20g. Even if you had the space for a larger
>> tank,
>> you would probably find yourself needing a smaller tank like a 20g for
>> quarantining, or raising baby fish etc. If you can get a 20g humming
>> along the way you like for a few months, then a larger tank will be a
>> cake-walk (much easier ;~).
>
> Indeed -- we already have plans for this one to house about ten or so
> dwarf puffers (and probably a couple otos) once we procure a larger
> one.
> We have another 20H that was given to us that probably needs to have
> the
> top frame replaced. It was a reptile aquarium that was going to be
> thrown away. The frame is just slightly melted along one of the long
> sides, and a lid will not stably sit on it (the frame is just a little
> too long). By the time we discovered this, we'd already bought a
> 24"x12" stand -- the place where we got it doesn't do returns
> generally,
> especially when the stand has already been assembled. We probably
> would
> have chosen a 29 otherwise.
>
> A friend told us that the top frame is easy to replace, so it's likely
> we'll repair it in the future. Otherwise (or in addition), the little
> 10G tanks are extremely cheap and seem like they would work well for
> quarantine/hospital (except for larger fish, obviously) or for fry.

Just be aware that their is a relationship between ease of operation and
size. Generally speaking, the smaller a tank is, the more prone it is to
variations in temperature, pollution and other parameters, and to filter.

>> It used to be thought that aging water was very important (and this is
>> not completely untrue either). In a properly circulated tank, 24
>> hours
>> will be sufficient to drive off any extra gases and chlorine. If your
>> municipality uses chloramines, then you use a de-chlorinator. Another
>> reason for having a delay was to ensure that your equipment is working
>> properly.
>
> I believe that just after I read this, I came across a passage in the
> book I was reading that talked about how before the nitrogen cycle was
> understood, it was thought that water changes were unnecessary or even
> harmful. :-) I did double-check a bucket of dechlorinated water (a
> one-drop-per-gallon "tap water conditioner" by Aquarium
> Pharmaceuticals)
> for ammonia, and found none.
>
>> Heaters weren't always as reliable as they are today, so letting a
>> tank run for a week was good practise. Note that the heater which
>> comes in a starter kit is usually the older technology, using an
>> analog bi-metal contact. They work, but don't feel bad about buying a
>> submersible digital heater and keeping the starter kit heater as a
>> spare.
>
>
>
>> I believe Stress-Zyme is one of the nitrifying bacteria formulas on
>> the
>> market. It really won't do too much unless you have a source of
>> ammonia
>> (ie: fish) to keep those bacteria alive.
>
> Indeed. I didn't realize that it was a bacterial starter at first; I
> thought it was one of those slime-coat-enhancing products initially.
> But it can't hurt, especially since I'm planning on a couple of massive
> water changes before introducing any fish. (And she had a little bit
> left in a larger bottle, so she gave that to us.)
>
>> Getting a few starter fish from a friend can be a mixed blessing. If
>> your interest is in the type of fish being received, then it's great.
>> If
>> you find yourself leaning towards something else in a few months, then
>> you might find a changing of the guard to be a bit of trouble (where
>> to
>> take them, having to catch them and transport them). In a 20g, this
>> is
>> not so bad, but when you get into larger tanks, you become much more
>> careful about your choices ;~).
>>
>> Also, certain fish are more territorial, so adding more fish to the
>> mix
>> becomes problematic. While Peacocks are not the worst, they are also
>> not
>> known for their sharing generousity when new fish are added a month
>> later. This is not intended to discourage you, just some of the
>> interesting parameters of stocking and operating an aquarium, and
>> fore-warned is fore-armed : ).
>
> I appreciate the advice. I wasn't too enthused about them, but my wife
> wanted to give them a home. We're thinking about it now. We're not
> going to introduce *any* fish for at least three weeks since we need to
> go out of town for the weekend in about two and a half weeks, and if we
> get fish before then, it won't be done cycling. That would just be
> irresponsible. Since it's just going to be sitting, I added some
> ammonia. I also started keeping a log.
>
>> Female colour acuity is slightly better than a male's. I often double
>> check my test results with one of my daughters. Have a strong source
>> of
>
> Part of the problem was a disagreement on how to interpret the color
> shade, which we resolved through the instruction booklet.
>
>> Pour a glass of water and let it sit for 24 hours before testing the
>> pH.
>> This will give you a more accurate reading. Reviewing your water
>> report,
>> I think you will find your water parameters will be very seasonal.
>> They
>> use a multiple of different water sources feeding 5 treatment plants.
>> Hopefully you are running off one treatment plant which primarily gets
>> its water from a single type of source, and you are not located too
>> closely to the plant, so you aren't affected by their weekly cycles
>> (if
>> they are not 24 hour automated). Proximity to plant is actually more
>> of
>> a problem for sof****er sources, so you probably have no concerns with
>> proximity, but ymmv.
>
> Indeed. A month or two ago, we had a problem with turbidity, and
> people
> on Phoenix water were advised to use bottled water for drinking,
> cooking, and brushing teeth, or else boil the tap water first. It was
> caused by unusually heavy rainfall that washed dust and accumulated
> dirt
> to the treatment plant, combined with two plants being down for
> scheduled maintenance and another being down for repair, or something
> along those lines. So I imagine the water then was softer than it
> normally is. As for the pH, I haven't tested it in a few days, but it
> was stable after 24 hours in the tank.
>
>> The numbers are in the report:
>> Hardness, minimum: 189, maximum: 269 ppm.
>> In aquarium terms, your hardness potentially varies between 11 and
>> 15dgH.
>
> I wasn't sure if those numbers were total hardness (gH + kH) or gH.

I think that if they list both (Hardness and Alkalinity) then it is gH
and then kH.

>> A quick rinse with warm water before going into the tank is a good
>> idea
>> if you use lotions, cremes etc. Otherwise, I just generally 'dive'
>> right
>> in ;~).
>
> Three responses and three different answers. ;-)

Absolutely, get used to it :o). People will tell you want worked for
them, and it will be in the best of intentions. Take all the opinions,
mine the newsgroup archives, read books & FAQs, maybe even ask the LFS
(though that might be best as a last resort ;~), and then form your own
opinion based on your particular application. After a while you will
become accustomed to the levels of expertise and depth of familiarity
from which people derive their advice. I've only been involved in the
hobby for about 30 years, operated a commercial fish dept with about 100
tanks and supervised a couple of other store's fish dept's, so I'm
definitely still learning, - but everyone is very patient here with me
;~). An interesting aspect of this hobby is not that it takes a long
time to learn enough to be proficient (ask Oz, he is a wiz now ;~), but
that if you choose, you can continue learning more & more, by going into
the technologies, flora, different species, breeding, biotopes, DIY
tanks etc etc.

>> I hope the fishless cycle goes well. I imagine we'll be hearing more
>> from you, especially when you're trying to figure out what stage of
>> the
>> fishless cycling you're in.
>
> The ammonia that I have must be fairly weak -- it took about 160 drops
> to bring it up to 4ppm. It seemed like a lot, but I figure that I
> probably only used a little over twice his recommended daily dosage
> from
> the first paper (judging by the potential difference in concentrations
> he mentioned in the second paper). According to other sources I've
> seen
> online, excess ammonia, while beneficial to nitrosomonas (as long as
> the
> concentration is not *too* high), can inhibit the growth of nitrobacter
> until the concentration is brought down. So I'm planning on adding no
> more ammonia until the concentration drops below 2 or 3ppm. Also,
> based
> on http://tinyurl.com/53dvn, http://tinyurl.com/4z65a, and
> http://www.algone.com/fishless_cycling.htm, I added some of the sample
> fish food that came with the kit, so that I could get a little
> phosphate
> in the water to promote the growth of the bacteria.
>
> References say that fishless cycling can take 10 days to 3 weeks or
> more. Since it's my understanding that nitrobacter grow more slowly
> than nitrosomonas (even once they have nitrite for food), I hope to see
> nitrite by this weekend. Nah, I'm not impatient.
>
> Maybe the potential complexity scares some people away, but it was one
> of the things that attracted me in the first place. :-)

The beauty of fishless cycling (imo) is that it's a process which
requires very little accuracy, maintenance, monitoring or attention.
Myself, I put in enough ammonia (once) to measure between 5 and 7 ppm
after a few hours, shut off the lights, keep the heater & filter running,
and return to the tank after about 3 weeks. As you have already learned,
there will be many variations on this theme. In fact there are optimal
pH and temperature ranges for the various bacterias to prosper, and being
outside those ranges can severely dampen the reaction. Do you need to
know what the parameters are?... nah (your water is ok, I checked ;~),
put the ammonia in and come back in 3 or 4 weeks. Don't sweat the small
stuff ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk