Gill Fluttering?

[dfreas]

I bought an African Elephant Nose fish today. Neat little guy. I've
read a lot about them in the past week and know enough to keep him
happy.

When I first put him in the tank though (about ten minutes ago) I
noticed a behavior I have never seen before in any fish. The best way I
can describe it is "gill fluttering" basically his gill flaps are
fluttering rapidly back and forth. He isn't showing any (other?) signs
of stress and I know there is plenty of oxygen in the tank so it isn't
a breathing issue. Is this some sort of weird fish signal? This isn't
the same as when fish do their panting thing of pumping the gills to
get water flow over them...this is actual fluttering. Imagine the way
the fin of a knife fish moves - that's exactly what his gills are
doing. And I'm quite sure it is deliberate.

The most theatening fish in the tank is a kuhli loach so I know he
doesn't feel threatened. The tank is fairly well planted with an excess
of hiding places as well so it isn't as if he's stuck out in the open.

Has anyone ever seen this before? If so theories as to the cause would
be welcome. Water quality is fine, 0/0/5, lots of plants caves and
sticks to hide in, no big fish other than my 6" pl*co. I'm not really
worried because I don't think it's a bad sign...just weird.

-Daniel

[NetMax]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I bought an African Elephant Nose fish today. Neat little guy. I've
> read a lot about them in the past week and know enough to keep him
> happy.
>
> When I first put him in the tank though (about ten minutes ago) I
> noticed a behavior I have never seen before in any fish. The best way I
> can describe it is "gill fluttering" basically his gill flaps are
> fluttering rapidly back and forth. He isn't showing any (other?) signs
> of stress and I know there is plenty of oxygen in the tank so it isn't
> a breathing issue. Is this some sort of weird fish signal? This isn't
> the same as when fish do their panting thing of pumping the gills to
> get water flow over them...this is actual fluttering. Imagine the way
> the fin of a knife fish moves - that's exactly what his gills are
> doing. And I'm quite sure it is deliberate.
>
> The most theatening fish in the tank is a kuhli loach so I know he
> doesn't feel threatened. The tank is fairly well planted with an excess
> of hiding places as well so it isn't as if he's stuck out in the open.
>
> Has anyone ever seen this before? If so theories as to the cause would
> be welcome. Water quality is fine, 0/0/5, lots of plants caves and
> sticks to hide in, no big fish other than my 6" pl*co. I'm not really
> worried because I don't think it's a bad sign...just weird.
>
> -Daniel


Note that you can easily kill a fish by taking it out of really bad water
(ie: high DOCs, high NO3) and plunk them into perfect water (clean, warm,
as acidic as they like it etc). Within a certain range, water shock is
more lethal than absolute parameters.

I'm not suggesting that this is your case though, just thinking out loud.
My guess would be that the Elephant nose does not necessarily share your
view or confidence in the safety of this new environment. Hopefully he
settles in well.

It would be interesting to see this fluttering. My penchant for
providing them lots of hiding spaces has always limited my observation of
these very unique fish.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Lisa]

That reminds me - I saw a neat device in the LFS today. It was a clear
tube specifically designed for Elephant noses and other electric-types
of freshwater fish. The tube makes the fish feel safe and hidden, but
it's actually clear so that they can be seen. They think that they are
hiding. I've never seen one in use, though. I wonder if they work?
It was called "No More Hiding" or something along those lines, and came
in various sizes.

- Lisa

[Richard Sexton]

>Note that you can easily kill a fish by taking it out of really bad water
>(ie: high DOCs, high NO3) and plunk them into perfect water (clean, warm,
>as acidic as they like it etc). Within a certain range, water shock is
>more lethal than absolute parameters.

The effect of this has to be seen to be believed and it happener here
quite recently. A neighbor of mine with a, um, "suboptimal" 150
gallon tank asked me to fish-sit his cichlids for a couple of
months while he basically rebuilt his house. He brought them over
and put them in a new tank set up with fresh water, the same stuff
my killifish and freshwater shrimp thrive in. Within minutes half
of them were dead and the other half gasping at the surface. He
was calling the shots here and did not believe in a slow transition
and claims I have bad water. Odd, it's been fine for the 7 years I've lived
here for all sorts of aquatic life from the microscopic size and up.

JJ Scheel explains it best I think in _Rivulins of the old world_
where he takes the seemingly heretic stance that pH and temperature
(within a fee degrees) to not matter a bit; that is you can dump
a fish from water with a pH of 7.5 into a tank of day pH 6.5 with
no ill effects. Or, you can move a fish from soft water to hard water
with impunity. But woe betide anybody who moves a fish from hard
water to soft water, the osmotic shock causes the gill membranes
to quite literally burst, hence the death in this case and gasping
at the surface.

That's what happened in the case of my neighbor. Although my water
is quite hard, his is even moreso as he topped it up rather than
changed it and there was over a years accumulation of who knows
what in there. No measurement were made but dollars to donus he
had way more stuff dissolved in his water than mine. The fish
that survived were fine - until he decided to add, without
quarentine, another fish which brought in some awful disease
that wiped out all but two. Needless to say I was very carefull
that not a drop of water from his tank here ever entered min;
nets and equipment were sterilized and so on...

--
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Squeek]

Seems to me like your fish is hyper ventillating because of
stress....remember these fish get stressed SO easily....what i would do is
put a dark sheet to cover about half of the tank so that the fish cant see
you in one half...and as time progresses...slowly move the sheet so it
covers less and less.....
"dfreas" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I bought an African Elephant Nose fish today. Neat little guy. I've
> read a lot about them in the past week and know enough to keep him
> happy.
>
> When I first put him in the tank though (about ten minutes ago) I
> noticed a behavior I have never seen before in any fish. The best way I
> can describe it is "gill fluttering" basically his gill flaps are
> fluttering rapidly back and forth. He isn't showing any (other?) signs
> of stress and I know there is plenty of oxygen in the tank so it isn't
> a breathing issue. Is this some sort of weird fish signal? This isn't
> the same as when fish do their panting thing of pumping the gills to
> get water flow over them...this is actual fluttering. Imagine the way
> the fin of a knife fish moves - that's exactly what his gills are
> doing. And I'm quite sure it is deliberate.
>
> The most theatening fish in the tank is a kuhli loach so I know he
> doesn't feel threatened. The tank is fairly well planted with an excess
> of hiding places as well so it isn't as if he's stuck out in the open.
>
> Has anyone ever seen this before? If so theories as to the cause would
> be welcome. Water quality is fine, 0/0/5, lots of plants caves and
> sticks to hide in, no big fish other than my 6" pl*co. I'm not really
> worried because I don't think it's a bad sign...just weird.
>
> -Daniel
>

[Angrie.Woman]

"Lisa" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> That reminds me - I saw a neat device in the LFS today. It was a clear
> tube specifically designed for Elephant noses and other electric-types
> of freshwater fish. The tube makes the fish feel safe and hidden, but
> it's actually clear so that they can be seen. They think that they are
> hiding. I've never seen one in use, though. I wonder if they work?
> It was called "No More Hiding" or something along those lines, and came
> in various sizes.

I had one, many years ago, for a ghost knife. I was never convinced he was
actually feeling secure in there, so I gave in and put in a proper cave for
him.

A

[NetMax]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lisa" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> That reminds me - I saw a neat device in the LFS today. It was a
>> clear
>> tube specifically designed for Elephant noses and other electric-types
>> of freshwater fish. The tube makes the fish feel safe and hidden, but
>> it's actually clear so that they can be seen. They think that they
>> are
>> hiding. I've never seen one in use, though. I wonder if they work?
>> It was called "No More Hiding" or something along those lines, and
>> came
>> in various sizes.
>
> I had one, many years ago, for a ghost knife. I was never convinced he
> was actually feeling secure in there, so I gave in and put in a proper
> cave for him.
>
> A


This was my experience with the clear tubes as well.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Note that you can easily kill a fish by taking it out of really bad
> >water
>>(ie: high DOCs, high NO3) and plunk them into perfect water (clean,
>>warm,
>>as acidic as they like it etc). Within a certain range, water shock is
>>more lethal than absolute parameters.
>
> The effect of this has to be seen to be believed and it happener here
> quite recently. A neighbor of mine with a, um, "suboptimal" 150
> gallon tank asked me to fish-sit his cichlids for a couple of
> months while he basically rebuilt his house. He brought them over
> and put them in a new tank set up with fresh water, the same stuff
> my killifish and freshwater shrimp thrive in. Within minutes half
> of them were dead and the other half gasping at the surface. He
> was calling the shots here and did not believe in a slow transition
> and claims I have bad water. Odd, it's been fine for the 7 years I've
> lived
> here for all sorts of aquatic life from the microscopic size and up.
>
> JJ Scheel explains it best I think in _Rivulins of the old world_
> where he takes the seemingly heretic stance that pH and temperature
> (within a fee degrees) to not matter a bit; that is you can dump
> a fish from water with a pH of 7.5 into a tank of day pH 6.5 with
> no ill effects. Or, you can move a fish from soft water to hard water
> with impunity. But woe betide anybody who moves a fish from hard
> water to soft water, the osmotic shock causes the gill membranes
> to quite literally burst, hence the death in this case and gasping
> at the surface.
>
> That's what happened in the case of my neighbor. Although my water
> is quite hard, his is even moreso as he topped it up rather than
> changed it and there was over a years accumulation of who knows
> what in there. No measurement were made but dollars to donus he
> had way more stuff dissolved in his water than mine. The fish
> that survived were fine - until he decided to add, without
> quarentine, another fish which brought in some awful disease
> that wiped out all but two. Needless to say I was very carefull
> that not a drop of water from his tank here ever entered min;
> nets and equipment were sterilized and so on...
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org


Regarding the transition from hard water to soft (or the reverse), the
hard to soft is the worst exactly as you have explained. The reverse
(soft to hard) causes some level of respiratory stress for a few days
while the membranes adjust to the harder water. This respiratory
distress will not usually harm them, but in their weakened state, smaller
fish will often succumb to other transition stresses, and are very prone
to nuisance diseases such as Ich. just fyi
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

>Regarding the transition from hard water to soft (or the reverse), the
>hard to soft is the worst exactly as you have explained. The reverse
>(soft to hard) causes some level of respiratory stress for a few days


I've never seen it. Scheel in his book mentions "no problems" doing
this either. Any chance it could be something else? Ammonia?


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Regarding the transition from hard water to soft (or the reverse), the
>>hard to soft is the worst exactly as you have explained. The reverse
>>(soft to hard) causes some level of respiratory stress for a few days
>
>
> I've never seen it. Scheel in his book mentions "no problems" doing
> this either. Any chance it could be something else? Ammonia?


While other things could be happening at the same time, the effect has
been documented (my understanding) as being due to the thickness (or was
it pressure?) of the gill membrane's cells, which develop according to
the water's hardness. Whether this particular author observed it or not
is a matter of degree, and the stress he noted is very much the worser of
the two. I became acutely aware of this with my pet shop on soft water,
and my home (and that of many clients) on hard water. The soft to hard
transition was difficult, the hard to soft was more in the disasterous
category. Of course, the magnitude of the effect depends on the
difference in hardness between the source & destination. ymmv
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Richard Sexton]

>While other things could be happening at the same time, the effect has
>been documented (my understanding) as being due to the thickness (or was
>it pressure?) of the gill membrane's cells, which develop according to
>the water's hardness. Whether this particular author observed it or not
>is a matter of degree, and the stress he noted is very much the worser of
>the two. I became acutely aware of this with my pet shop on soft water,
>and my home (and that of many clients) on hard water. The soft to hard
>transition was difficult, the hard to soft was more in the disasterous
>category. Of course, the magnitude of the effect depends on the
>difference in hardness between the source & destination. ymmv

Yeah, first you have to rule out other things but here's what
Scheel said in _ROTOW_ (P 24-25): "Thus, some of us have to use different
sorts of water for our killifishes butthis does not represent
any serious problem.

If you move rivuline individuals from a water containing much
dissolved mineral matter to water containing little such matter,
these individuals probably will soon be swimming at the surface
and they soon die. If you inspect the gills under a microscope you
will realize the reason for this. You will find the gills completely
ruined. The many brittle cells of the gills burst shortly after the
individuals had been placed in the water of low salinity because
of the large differences in osmotic pressures. If fished are moved
from water containing little dissolved mineral matter towater containing
much such matter nothing will usually happen."

Then on P26: "Differencesin pH values, even from 5.0 to
8.0 have not produced any harm when individuals are suddenly moved
from one type of water to the other."

(Ref: Scheel, Col J.J., Rivulins of the Old World, TFH Press, 1968)

In the face of contradictory anecdotal evidence I would want to
ruls out all other factores first before I claimed moving
fish from soft to hard water was problematic.

As an aside, I found Scheels grandson who knew "grandad kept fish"
but was totally unaware he was one of the top dozen aquarist
in hs day and the most respected killi gu in his day; in his
20 years keeping these fish he contributed more to our knowledge
of them than, arguably perhaps, the total of all killi hobbyists
since then.

The first (?) fish specialty society was the American Killifish
Association in 1961 and back then it was nothing more than
people exchanging letters. Scheel began sending out letters
to a handful (?) of other "killifans" in the 1950s then stopped
to compile all his work into a book - ROTOW - but had set the
stage for a "virtual", that is, "mail in" aquarium/fish society.

His original letters have been preserved through time and I
coaxed some old family photos from his grandson to annotate them
and you can see them here:

http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Angrie.Woman]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >While other things could be happening at the same time, the effect has
>>been documented (my understanding) as being due to the thickness (or was
>>it pressure?) of the gill membrane's cells, which develop according to
>>the water's hardness. Whether this particular author observed it or not
>>is a matter of degree, and the stress he noted is very much the worser of
>>the two. I became acutely aware of this with my pet shop on soft water,
>>and my home (and that of many clients) on hard water. The soft to hard
>>transition was difficult, the hard to soft was more in the disasterous
>>category. Of course, the magnitude of the effect depends on the
>>difference in hardness between the source & destination. ymmv
>
> Yeah, first you have to rule out other things but here's what
> Scheel said in _ROTOW_ (P 24-25): "Thus, some of us have to use different
> sorts of water for our killifishes butthis does not represent
> any serious problem.
>
> If you move rivuline individuals from a water containing much
> dissolved mineral matter to water containing little such matter,
> these individuals probably will soon be swimming at the surface
> and they soon die. If you inspect the gills under a microscope you
> will realize the reason for this. You will find the gills completely
> ruined. The many brittle cells of the gills burst shortly after the
> individuals had been placed in the water of low salinity because
> of the large differences in osmotic pressures. If fished are moved
> from water containing little dissolved mineral matter towater containing
> much such matter nothing will usually happen."
>
> Then on P26: "Differencesin pH values, even from 5.0 to
> 8.0 have not produced any harm when individuals are suddenly moved
> from one type of water to the other."
>
> (Ref: Scheel, Col J.J., Rivulins of the Old World, TFH Press, 1968)
>
> In the face of contradictory anecdotal evidence I would want to
> ruls out all other factores first before I claimed moving
> fish from soft to hard water was problematic.
>
> As an aside, I found Scheels grandson who knew "grandad kept fish"
> but was totally unaware he was one of the top dozen aquarist
> in hs day and the most respected killi gu in his day; in his
> 20 years keeping these fish he contributed more to our knowledge
> of them than, arguably perhaps, the total of all killi hobbyists
> since then.
>
> The first (?) fish specialty society was the American Killifish
> Association in 1961 and back then it was nothing more than
> people exchanging letters. Scheel began sending out letters
> to a handful (?) of other "killifans" in the 1950s then stopped
> to compile all his work into a book - ROTOW - but had set the
> stage for a "virtual", that is, "mail in" aquarium/fish society.
>
> His original letters have been preserved through time and I
> coaxed some old family photos from his grandson to annotate them
> and you can see them here:
>
> http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/
>

Wow Richard - that is so cool!

A

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >While other things could be happening at the same time, the effect has
>>been documented (my understanding) as being due to the thickness (or
>>was
>>it pressure?) of the gill membrane's cells, which develop according to
>>the water's hardness. Whether this particular author observed it or
>>not
>>is a matter of degree, and the stress he noted is very much the worser
>>of
>>the two. I became acutely aware of this with my pet shop on soft
>>water,
>>and my home (and that of many clients) on hard water. The soft to hard
>>transition was difficult, the hard to soft was more in the disasterous
>>category. Of course, the magnitude of the effect depends on the
>>difference in hardness between the source & destination. ymmv
>
> Yeah, first you have to rule out other things but here's what
> Scheel said in _ROTOW_ (P 24-25): "Thus, some of us have to use
> different
> sorts of water for our killifishes butthis does not represent
> any serious problem.
>
> If you move rivuline individuals from a water containing much
> dissolved mineral matter to water containing little such matter,
> these individuals probably will soon be swimming at the surface
> and they soon die. If you inspect the gills under a microscope you
> will realize the reason for this. You will find the gills completely
> ruined. The many brittle cells of the gills burst shortly after the
> individuals had been placed in the water of low salinity because
> of the large differences in osmotic pressures. If fished are moved
> from water containing little dissolved mineral matter towater
> containing
> much such matter nothing will usually happen."
>
> Then on P26: "Differencesin pH values, even from 5.0 to
> 8.0 have not produced any harm when individuals are suddenly moved
> from one type of water to the other."
>
> (Ref: Scheel, Col J.J., Rivulins of the Old World, TFH Press, 1968)
>
> In the face of contradictory anecdotal evidence I would want to
> ruls out all other factores first before I claimed moving
> fish from soft to hard water was problematic.

Actually, I don't see a contradiction. There has been research in the
area of pH which supports the theory that our preoccupation with pH shock
has been greatly exagerated, and the real problem is osmotic shock. What
has muddied the findings of various hobbyists is that water of different
osmotic pressure is typically of different pH, due to the buffering
effect of the carbonates. If the osmotic pressures are comparable, then
I suspect that pH is of considerably less importance than doctrine
suggests.

In regards to the reverse effect (respritory stress during the soft to
hard water transition), I doubt there exists a Killifish which would be
exposed to the water hardness I'm thinking of, so the author would
certainly not have encountered this as a matter of routine, and would
have had to have been conducting specific tests using fish which can
exist in very hard water.

> As an aside, I found Scheels grandson who knew "grandad kept fish"
> but was totally unaware he was one of the top dozen aquarist
> in hs day and the most respected killi gu in his day; in his
> 20 years keeping these fish he contributed more to our knowledge
> of them than, arguably perhaps, the total of all killi hobbyists
> since then.
>
> The first (?) fish specialty society was the American Killifish
> Association in 1961 and back then it was nothing more than
> people exchanging letters. Scheel began sending out letters
> to a handful (?) of other "killifans" in the 1950s then stopped
> to compile all his work into a book - ROTOW - but had set the
> stage for a "virtual", that is, "mail in" aquarium/fish society.
>
> His original letters have been preserved through time and I
> coaxed some old family photos from his grandson to annotate them
> and you can see them here:
>
> http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/


Thanks for that. In my all too brief occupation of running fish dept.s,
I tried introducing Killis to (or back to) the Ottawa market. There was
a surge of interest but I then left the trade for a different line of
work and I don't know if my successor continued with it. Some of the
fish were stunning, but my challenge was to bring the price down enough
for a wider acceptance.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Richard Sexton]

>Actually, I don't see a contradiction. There has been research in the
>area of pH which supports the theory that our preoccupation with pH shock
>has been greatly exagerated, and the real problem is osmotic shock. What
>has muddied the findings of various hobbyists is that water of different
>osmotic pressure is typically of different pH, due to the buffering
>effect of the carbonates. If the osmotic pressures are comparable, then
>I suspect that pH is of considerably less importance than doctrine
>suggests.
>
>In regards to the reverse effect (respritory stress during the soft to
>hard water transition), I doubt there exists a Killifish which would be
>exposed to the water hardness I'm thinking of, so the author would
>certainly not have encountered this as a matter of routine, and would
>have had to have been conducting specific tests using fish which can
>exist in very hard water.

I dunno, 900ppm LA tapwater and 1200ppm rural ontario water which
a lot of people I know endure is hard enough I'd say. Putting some
salt into the soft water 24 hours before transitiob would help
any potejtial osmotic shock.

>>
>> His original letters have been preserved through time and I
>> coaxed some old family photos from his grandson to annotate them
>> and you can see them here:
>>
>> http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/
>
>
>Thanks for that. In my all too brief occupation of running fish dept.s,
>I tried introducing Killis to (or back to) the Ottawa market. There was
>a surge of interest but I then left the trade for a different line of
>work and I don't know if my successor continued with it. Some of the
>fish were stunning, but my challenge was to bring the price down enough
>for a wider acceptance.

If you're getting fish Oliver please let me know. I'd quite probably
drive up there and get some.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Actually, I don't see a contradiction. There has been research in the
>>area of pH which supports the theory that our preoccupation with pH
>>shock
>>has been greatly exagerated, and the real problem is osmotic shock.
>>What
>>has muddied the findings of various hobbyists is that water of
>>different
>>osmotic pressure is typically of different pH, due to the buffering
>>effect of the carbonates. If the osmotic pressures are comparable,
>>then
>>I suspect that pH is of considerably less importance than doctrine
>>suggests.
>>
>>In regards to the reverse effect (respritory stress during the soft to
>>hard water transition), I doubt there exists a Killifish which would be
>>exposed to the water hardness I'm thinking of, so the author would
>>certainly not have encountered this as a matter of routine, and would
>>have had to have been conducting specific tests using fish which can
>>exist in very hard water.
>
> I dunno, 900ppm LA tapwater and 1200ppm rural ontario water which
> a lot of people I know endure is hard enough I'd say. Putting some
> salt into the soft water 24 hours before transitiob would help
> any potejtial osmotic shock.

*expletive deleted* 1200ppm? I'd say 600ppm is very hard water. There
are Killis which can exist in 1200ppm (67dgH)???

Re: salt, yup (within reason), as the salt contributes to the osmotic
pressure, though it would not register as part of the hardness, and you
would need a TDS measurement.

Tell me more about these hard water Killis *interest perking up*.
--
www.NetMax.tk

>
>>>
>>> His original letters have been preserved through time and I
>>> coaxed some old family photos from his grandson to annotate them
>>> and you can see them here:
>>>
>>> http://new.killi.net/articles/by_Author/Scheel/
>>
>>
>>Thanks for that. In my all too brief occupation of running fish
>>dept.s,
>>I tried introducing Killis to (or back to) the Ottawa market. There
>>was
>>a surge of interest but I then left the trade for a different line of
>>work and I don't know if my successor continued with it. Some of the
>>fish were stunning, but my challenge was to bring the price down enough
>>for a wider acceptance.
>
> If you're getting fish Oliver please let me know. I'd quite probably
> drive up there and get some.
>
> --
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> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Richard Sexton]

>*expletive deleted* 1200ppm? I'd say 600ppm is very hard water. There
>are Killis which can exist in 1200ppm (67dgH)???
>
>Re: salt, yup (within reason), as the salt contributes to the osmotic
>pressure, though it would not register as part of the hardness, and you
>would need a TDS measurement.
>
>Tell me more about these hard water Killis *interest perking up*.

Nothing unusual about this. There was a commercial breeder up in
Creemore than had two hosues fill of tanks of nothing but killifish.
He sent 4000 a month to Eck-will. All bred in 1200 ppm Creemore tapwater.

Of the 30species he bred none were from hard water, all were soft
water killies. He bred discus too but had so soften the water for them.

LA tapwater was 875-900 ppm when I lived there and I bred killies
in that just fine tooo. I did get an RO filter later on but that was
just to get rid of the chloramine.

I haven't etsted my water here but it's harder than LA tap bases
on what it leaves behinf when it evaporates and bahaves like that
stuff in Creemore, that is youlet it sit and CaCO3 precipitates
out overnight.

There are killies fount in hard alkaline water - pupfish of the
genus Cyprinodon.

I keep primarily Aphyosemions.

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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >*expletive deleted* 1200ppm? I'd say 600ppm is very hard water.
> >There
>>are Killis which can exist in 1200ppm (67dgH)???
>>
>>Re: salt, yup (within reason), as the salt contributes to the osmotic
>>pressure, though it would not register as part of the hardness, and you
>>would need a TDS measurement.
>>
>>Tell me more about these hard water Killis *interest perking up*.
>
> Nothing unusual about this. There was a commercial breeder up in
> Creemore than had two hosues fill of tanks of nothing but killifish.
> He sent 4000 a month to Eck-will. All bred in 1200 ppm Creemore
> tapwater.
>
> Of the 30species he bred none were from hard water, all were soft
> water killies. He bred discus too but had so soften the water for them.
>
> LA tapwater was 875-900 ppm when I lived there and I bred killies
> in that just fine tooo. I did get an RO filter later on but that was
> just to get rid of the chloramine.
>
> I haven't etsted my water here but it's harder than LA tap bases
> on what it leaves behinf when it evaporates and bahaves like that
> stuff in Creemore, that is youlet it sit and CaCO3 precipitates
> out overnight.
>
> There are killies fount in hard alkaline water - pupfish of the
> genus Cyprinodon.
>
> I keep primarily Aphyosemions.


Thanks for the info Richard. There is a standard list of fish we
recommend for folks on well water, and it never occured to me to research
Killifish which could make that list.
--
www.NetMax.tk


> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Richard Sexton]

>Thanks for the info Richard. There is a standard list of fish we
>recommend for folks on well water, and it never occured to me to research
>Killifish which could make that list.

Which fish don't do ok in hard water? I understand there may be fertilify
issues with spawning, the calcium ions prevent entry by the spermatazoa
so a mix of RO/distilled or some other method of softening the water
may be needed but I can't say I've ever run across a fish that
would't live normally in hard water.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>Which fish don't do ok in hard water?

I don't know of any.

As for killies which do well in hard water, I can vouch for
Aplocheilichthys normani, Plataplochilus ngaensis, Fundulopanchax
gardneri and Aphyosemion bitaeniatum, all of which I've had live &
spawn (though the eggs were eaten) in water which is basically liquid
limestone.

[NetMax]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Thanks for the info Richard. There is a standard list of fish we
>>recommend for folks on well water, and it never occured to me to
>>research
>>Killifish which could make that list.
>
> Which fish don't do ok in hard water? I understand there may be
> fertilify
> issues with spawning, the calcium ions prevent entry by the spermatazoa
> so a mix of RO/distilled or some other method of softening the water
> may be needed but I can't say I've ever run across a fish that
> would't live normally in hard water.


Discus, Hatchetfish and wild Cardinals to name a few, and bizarrely
female Guppies (that last one was my most recent personal observation
;~), supported by many remaining male Guppies).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Richard Sexton]

>Discus, Hatchetfish and wild Cardinals to name a few, and bizarrely
>female Guppies (that last one was my most recent personal observation
>;~), supported by many remaining male Guppies).

I've never liked discus enough to get any but I've kept the rest in 800ppm
water just fine.

Hard water won't kill them but a protozoan infection will.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org