Fowler to reef.. nitrate question ..

[Ajay Malkani]

I have a 200 G fish with live rock fr about 10 months now and want to shift
completely to a reef setup. All the required equipment is there. Lights,
Eheim Wet/Dry, Eheim canister, powerheads, Uv, Skimmer, Chiller etc.

Problem is the nitrates keep increasing till I water chnage. Is there any
way to keep nitrates stable at the bare minimum? Do i need to add a
denitrifying filter? Add Live rocks? Add Live Sand? What shld i basically do
to make sure the nitrates dont rise? Ive been reading and I actually even
read somewhere that a wet/dry will even enhance nitrate production! So do I
dump it ? and substitute with what?

Looking fr a simple and longterm solution and I know the best advice will be
here!

Thanks,

Ajay

[Chris Gentry]

"Ajay Malkani" > wrote in message
news:1110390956.a10dcf7a9c97f9976170e20735a6dfa5@t eranews...
> I have a 200 G fish with live rock fr about 10 months now and want to
shift
> completely to a reef setup. All the required equipment is there. Lights,
> Eheim Wet/Dry, Eheim canister, powerheads, Uv, Skimmer, Chiller etc.
>
> Problem is the nitrates keep increasing till I water chnage. Is there any
> way to keep nitrates stable at the bare minimum? Do i need to add a
> denitrifying filter?
No. Although I think a refugium (vegetable filter) would be nice.
> Add Live rocks?
Yes, if you are under the 1-2 pounds per gallon mark.

> Add Live Sand?
A deep sand bed (DSB) will increase denitrification. at least 3" is the
rule, but more can be better.

>What shld i basically do
> to make sure the nitrates dont rise? Ive been reading and I actually even
> read somewhere that a wet/dry will even enhance nitrate production! So do
I
> dump it ?
Yes I would get rid of the wet/dry

>and substitute with what?
Live rock, live sand.

>
> Looking fr a simple and longterm solution and I know the best advice will
be
> here!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ajay
>
>

[CapFusion]

"Ajay Malkani" > wrote in message
news:1110390956.a10dcf7a9c97f9976170e20735a6dfa5@t eranews...
>I have a 200 G fish with live rock fr about 10 months now and want to shift
>completely to a reef setup. All the required equipment is there. Lights,
>Eheim Wet/Dry, Eheim canister, powerheads, Uv, Skimmer, Chiller etc.
>
> Problem is the nitrates keep increasing till I water chnage. Is there any
> way to keep nitrates stable at the bare minimum? Do i need to add a
> denitrifying filter? Add Live rocks? Add Live Sand? What shld i basically
> do to make sure the nitrates dont rise? Ive been reading and I actually
> even read somewhere that a wet/dry will even enhance nitrate production!
> So do I dump it ? and substitute with what?
>
> Looking fr a simple and longterm solution and I know the best advice will
> be here!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ajay
>
As Chris already stated....
I would assumed the Wet/Dry maybe the cause of your nitrate. Adding DSB /
LR might reduce your nitrate. You can also try adding microalgae or refugium
to uptake nitrate. I would suggest to slowly remove the Wet/Dry to see if
nitrate will be reduce as other filteration like LR / DSB can take over the
job of Wet/Dry.

CapFusion,...

[Phil]

"Ajay Malkani" > wrote in message
news:1110390956.a10dcf7a9c97f9976170e20735a6dfa5@t eranews...
> I have a 200 G fish with live rock fr about 10 months now and want to
shift
> completely to a reef setup. All the required equipment is there. Lights,
> Eheim Wet/Dry, Eheim canister, powerheads, Uv, Skimmer, Chiller etc.
>
> Problem is the nitrates keep increasing till I water chnage. Is there any
> way to keep nitrates stable at the bare minimum? Do i need to add a
> denitrifying filter? Add Live rocks? Add Live Sand? What shld i basically
do
> to make sure the nitrates dont rise? Ive been reading and I actually even
> read somewhere that a wet/dry will even enhance nitrate production! So do
I
> dump it ? and substitute with what?
>
> Looking fr a simple and longterm solution and I know the best advice will
be
> here!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ajay


Ajay

My experience is this:

I have a 6*2*2 tank and a large sump / refugium -- total volume about 900
litres (240 US gallons).

The tank has been running for about 10 months, and has the following:

10-12 fish (nothing really large) See
http://community.webshots.com/album/149890982jXnxRs for some old pictures
About 180 lbs of live rock
About 25 corals, mostly soft and LPS
Water circulation is by 2 Rio pumps (20 HF and 17 HF)
A Berlin HO skimmer
A very light cover of sand in the display tank and about 3 inches of sand in
the refugium
A mix of algaes and "critters" in the refugium
Usually a bag of activated carbon hanging in the sump
Sometimes I use some Phosban
A UV steriliser (used only occasionally)
Chiller -- water temp 25 - 26 deg C
Fish are fed every other day
Corals are not fed
The biosystem is fed with 1 teaspoon of sugar once per week (when I started
doing this, there seemed to be a step change down in nitrate levels from
around 5 ppm to around 2 ppm)
Additives are Seachem Reef Advantage Calcium and Reef Builder

Nitrates are virtually undetectable - but it took a long time (months) to
get there.
I used to do regular water changes, but now I maybe change 5% every two
months or so (and probably don't need to do that)
Our water (Sydney Australia) is quite good, so I have stopped (with no
problems) using RO for top off water and just use tap water with a big dose
of Prime.

Hope the above is helpful.

Phil

>
>

[unclenorm]

Hi Ajay,

Your problem is you are using a filtration system that is suited
to fresh water but unsuitable for salt water. First of you must use
RO/DI or distilled water NOT tap water, get about 250 to 300 lbs of
live rock, then a deep sand bed, I would add a sump/fug. under your
tank about 50 gall or more ( the more water you have in the system the
more stable it will be )and put the deep sand bed in the fug, about 6"
or more of live sand then you can have about 2 or 3" in the display
tank, the deep sand bed can be made up of 75% aragonite play sand and
25% live sand, It will soon all be live, When this system has cycled
and matured ( can take a few months ) you should have no more water
problems and little if any need for water changes. You do need a good
skimmer and power heads, your water flow rate needs to be about
4000galls per hour calculated by adding the flow rates of all the pumps
either circulating water from your sump to tank to sump plus all power
heads plus flow through the skimmer if it returns to the tank, the
chiller is optional but you need to maintain your water temp. at 27C to
29C as most natural reef ( some run quite a bit higher than this ) All
that other gear I would sell to finance a proper system including the
U/V they do more harm than good.
regards,
unclenorm.
P.S. the system I have described I have been running for many years
with no problems what so ever.


Ajay Malkani wrote:
> I have a 200 G fish with live rock fr about 10 months now and want to
shift
> completely to a reef setup. All the required equipment is there.
Lights,
> Eheim Wet/Dry, Eheim canister, powerheads, Uv, Skimmer, Chiller etc.
>
> Problem is the nitrates keep increasing till I water chnage. Is there
any
> way to keep nitrates stable at the bare minimum? Do i need to add a
> denitrifying filter? Add Live rocks? Add Live Sand? What shld i
basically do
> to make sure the nitrates dont rise? Ive been reading and I actually
even
> read somewhere that a wet/dry will even enhance nitrate production!
So do I
> dump it ? and substitute with what?
>
> Looking fr a simple and longterm solution and I know the best advice
will be
> here!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ajay

[Chris Gentry]

"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...

<snip>

> All that other gear I would sell to finance a proper
> system including the U/V they do more harm than good.

</snip>

If you don't sell the U/V I would at least unhook it so it doesn't run all
the time. Maybe just put it in the system when you have need of it.

[Ajay Malkani]

Thanks a lot guys..I read up a bit also and basically understood that
wet/dry needs to go and I need to rely on either Berlin or Jaubert. I guess
that means either LR or DSB based setups. I am adding LR ..have disconnected
the Wet/Dry and UV..also now looking into water circulation of 4k litres an
hour! That seems too much though..

Ajay
"Ajay Malkani" > wrote in message
news:1110390956.a10dcf7a9c97f9976170e20735a6dfa5@t eranews...
>I have a 200 G fish with live rock fr about 10 months now and want to shift
>completely to a reef setup. All the required equipment is there. Lights,
>Eheim Wet/Dry, Eheim canister, powerheads, Uv, Skimmer, Chiller etc.
>
> Problem is the nitrates keep increasing till I water chnage. Is there any
> way to keep nitrates stable at the bare minimum? Do i need to add a
> denitrifying filter? Add Live rocks? Add Live Sand? What shld i basically
> do to make sure the nitrates dont rise? Ive been reading and I actually
> even read somewhere that a wet/dry will even enhance nitrate production!
> So do I dump it ? and substitute with what?
>
> Looking fr a simple and longterm solution and I know the best advice will
> be here!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ajay
>

[unclenorm]

Hi Ajay,
LR and DSB isn't an either or, you need both, and 4000
litres per hour is way to low for flow, I said 4000 gall per hour not
litres, in litres it would be 18000 or more. The normal recommendation
for most good reefs is 20 times the volume of the tank per hour. some
people would use a good bit more than that. A low flow will inhibit the
functioning of the live rock, having said that the flow through the
refugium needs to be on the slow side for the DSB to work efficiently.
regards,
unclenorm.

[Benjamin]

Unclenorm,

Please tell me your kidding with "needing" both LR and a DSB... if so that
is just plain garbage! Ajay can have almost whatever setup he chooses
provided he understands how it will function and is willing to deal with
it's pro's and con's.
U.V. isn't evil either, but has it's place, certainly hang on to it. I
agree with the assessment on the "wet/dry" process though unless your
running one with no media. That might make a decent sump out of it. The
canister filter may come in handy for cleaning the tank so don't just hurl
it into the trash bin or something.

--
--



"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Ajay,
> LR and DSB isn't an either or, you need both, and 4000
> litres per hour is way to low for flow, I said 4000 gall per hour not
> litres, in litres it would be 18000 or more. The normal recommendation
> for most good reefs is 20 times the volume of the tank per hour. some
> people would use a good bit more than that. A low flow will inhibit the
> functioning of the live rock, having said that the flow through the
> refugium needs to be on the slow side for the DSB to work efficiently.
> regards,
> unclenorm.
>

[unclenorm]

Hi Benjamin,
I don't talk garbage I talk from very many years
of experience and I wasn't kidding to have a successful reef in your
tank replicating nature you need both as nature has, if you research
the whys and wherefores of DSB's and what they accomplish maybe you
will agree with me.
Certainly Ajay or anyone else for that matter can
have whatever set-up they choose and it may work after a fashion.
My recommendations are for a pretty much self
sustaining system that will just require the replenishment of some
essential elements now and again when they have been depleted by your
corals etc. Not one that requires regular water changes and multiple
chemicals all the while to try to correct problems
I didn't mention 'trash bin' nor did I call UV
evil, I said it did more harm than good and I stand by that statement.
I do advocate the use of a good protein skimmer,
by good I don't mean expensive, there are plenty of cheap one that work
perfectly well if properly set up.
regards
unclenorm.

[Benjamin]

Unclenorm,

Your stating that Ajay needs a DSB as a fact but the reality is it only your
opinion. I'm not saying that a DSB can not be beneficial in some
applications, but you seem to be making one mandatory "to have a successful
reef " which is simply not fact and why I called it garbage. I think there
has been enough DSB debunking done at this point in time that I can't even
see how your pushing this stance.

Yes, a DSB can be a relatively "self sustaining system" but it still has
requirements and it *is* a biological nutrient sink that *will* fill up.
It's not a "set it and forget it" solution. It has it's own pro's and
con's. What happens when the sink fills up unclenorm? I'm sure Ajay would
want that information as well.

I know you didn't mention "trash bin", or call UV "evil"... I did! :-) I
did so because that's how I'm hearing what your saying. What you said was
"it did more harm than good" which is yet another *opinion* stated as
*factual*. UV can have it's place, and even be desirable, in a reef tank
and isn't only to be relegated to a fish only setup. Ajay stated that he
wanted to "shift completely to a reef setup". From my view that simply
isn't enough information to start recommending much other than possibly
chucking the wet/dry bio material and getting the canister filter out of the
system.

Oh, and before I forget, your not going to *replicate nature* in an
aquarium, simply isn't going happen. I can't say it's never going to be a
possibility in the future, but it isn't any time soon. I certainly don't
expect it in my lifetime.

--
--




"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Benjamin,
> I don't talk garbage I talk from very many years
> of experience and I wasn't kidding to have a successful reef in your
> tank replicating nature you need both as nature has, if you research
> the whys and wherefores of DSB's and what they accomplish maybe you
> will agree with me.
> Certainly Ajay or anyone else for that matter can
> have whatever set-up they choose and it may work after a fashion.
> My recommendations are for a pretty much self
> sustaining system that will just require the replenishment of some
> essential elements now and again when they have been depleted by your
> corals etc. Not one that requires regular water changes and multiple
> chemicals all the while to try to correct problems
> I didn't mention 'trash bin' nor did I call UV
> evil, I said it did more harm than good and I stand by that statement.
> I do advocate the use of a good protein skimmer,
> by good I don't mean expensive, there are plenty of cheap one that work
> perfectly well if properly set up.
> regards
> unclenorm.
>

[unclenorm]

Now Benjamin you have started talking garbage,

What is all this 'Biological Nutrient sink' rubbish , you
should have taken my advise and found out how a deep sand bed operates
and what it does.

Deep sand beds apart here is a FACT for you to think about,
Nutrients can only exist in the water column no other non live form of
media can 'store' them as you seam to think certainly not sand.

I make nothing 'mandatory' I give advice or make
recommendations that I know are correct from very many years of
practical experience.
regards,
unclenorm.
P.S. I do not consider rotting food in the sand due to over feeding as
nutrients although the deep sand bed will take care of those to within
reason.

[Rich R]

That's how I feel,,,,, will everyone stop trying to prove each other wrong
and feel free to add a option ,,,be it Wright or Wrong just state what
worked for you and let everyone see each others way of doing things,,10
years ago we would of been laughed off the board if we did what we know
works today. norm keep adding to the forum from what works for you it does
help(well at least it helps me) ,,,,please everyone just keep the posting
its very unproductive to just try to prove each other wrong and have the
extra banter,,,,,oh yea and stop in at reeftanksonline.com,,,,,lol

--


www.reeftanksonline.com
www.nydiver.com
ONLINE meeting rooms



"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Now Benjamin you have started talking garbage,
>
> What is all this 'Biological Nutrient sink' rubbish , you
> should have taken my advise and found out how a deep sand bed operates
> and what it does.
>
> Deep sand beds apart here is a FACT for you to think about,
> Nutrients can only exist in the water column no other non live form of
> media can 'store' them as you seam to think certainly not sand.
>
> I make nothing 'mandatory' I give advice or make
> recommendations that I know are correct from very many years of
> practical experience.
> regards,
> unclenorm.
> P.S. I do not consider rotting food in the sand due to over feeding as
> nutrients although the deep sand bed will take care of those to within
> reason.
>
>

[Benjamin]

Here is a good thread for DSB reference material as an example of where I
come up with my view:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=48a2ea746e306a0d938b89c1e83b11aa&threadid=263482&perpage=25&pagenumber=1



Rich R,
Sigh... I have only the one issue with Unclenorm, he continues to state
opinion as fact. If he was only stating opinion as such instead of
immoveable fact, I would be able to shut up. I think otherwise he is quite
helpful.


Unclenorm,
This topic has been beaten absolutely to death on every major reef board on
the net... trying to contort what I have said is just ridiculous and isn't
gonna change anything. Keep the facts fact and the opinions opinion and I
really will stop harping, really.


--
--





"Rich R" > wrote in message
...
> That's how I feel,,,,, will everyone stop trying to prove each other wrong
> and feel free to add a option ,,,be it Wright or Wrong just state what
> worked for you and let everyone see each others way of doing things,,10
> years ago we would of been laughed off the board if we did what we know
> works today. norm keep adding to the forum from what works for you it
> does help(well at least it helps me) ,,,,please everyone just keep the
> posting its very unproductive to just try to prove each other wrong and
> have the extra banter,,,,,oh yea and stop in at
> reeftanksonline.com,,,,,lol
>
> --
>
>
> www.reeftanksonline.com
> www.nydiver.com
> ONLINE meeting rooms
>
>
>
> "unclenorm" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Now Benjamin you have started talking garbage,
>>
>> What is all this 'Biological Nutrient sink' rubbish , you
>> should have taken my advise and found out how a deep sand bed operates
>> and what it does.
>>
>> Deep sand beds apart here is a FACT for you to think about,
>> Nutrients can only exist in the water column no other non live form of
>> media can 'store' them as you seam to think certainly not sand.
>>
>> I make nothing 'mandatory' I give advice or make
>> recommendations that I know are correct from very many years of
>> practical experience.
>> regards,
>> unclenorm.
>> P.S. I do not consider rotting food in the sand due to over feeding as
>> nutrients although the deep sand bed will take care of those to within
>> reason.
>>
>>
>
>
>

[unclenorm]

Hi Benjamin,
I Have not tried to contort anything you have
said, my issue is with your statement that a DSB is a store for
nutrients, this is not true. I looked at your link, there is a paper in
there by a Japanese scientist that talks about the microbial conversion
of the nutrients we have been talking about. I do not intend pursuing
this mater any further as you have obviously decided that I am wrong,
OK all I can say is that I must have some very unique systems that have
happily performed as I have indicated for many years, goblins at the
bottom of my DSB's maybe !!!
regards,
unclenorm.

[Benjamin]

unclenorm,

It is true, DSB's act like a sponge/sink for nutrients... and looking at the
info in that link with a blindfold on doesn't count!

I did not say a DSB cannot be used, nor that they cannot be used rather
sucsessfully. My point is they are not a "Holy Grail" type of solution,
they have benefits as well as drawbacks, but they certainly are not
required. If you feel they are, that is fine, I can respect any opinion,
just don't call an opinion fact and all is well unclenorm.

--
--




"unclenorm" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Benjamin,
> I Have not tried to contort anything you have
> said, my issue is with your statement that a DSB is a store for
> nutrients, this is not true. I looked at your link, there is a paper in
> there by a Japanese scientist that talks about the microbial conversion
> of the nutrients we have been talking about. I do not intend pursuing
> this mater any further as you have obviously decided that I am wrong,
> OK all I can say is that I must have some very unique systems that have
> happily performed as I have indicated for many years, goblins at the
> bottom of my DSB's maybe !!!
> regards,
> unclenorm.
>

[unclenorm]

Hi Benjamin,
When I say DSB cannot store nitrate or any other
nutrient that is not my opinion that is fact amen.
regards,
unclenorm.

[Benjamin]

Oh piffle unclenorm... You have been talking about a Dead Sand Bed
(Alternate DSB acronym... hehe) this whole time haven't you? Here I thought
we were talking about live sand! Or maybe your saying that the life in live
sand doesn't need, use, or contain any nutrients? Or possibly that you
believe there is a 0 net gain of stored nutrients over time? Might be your
confusing semantics to avoid the reality that a DSB acts like a slop sink
with the stopper in the drain...I dunno, but fill up slowly it may, but fill
up it will.

--
--




"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Benjamin,
> When I say DSB cannot store nitrate or any other
> nutrient that is not my opinion that is fact amen.
> regards,
> unclenorm.
>