The heater can't keep up, going back to LFS

[[email protected]]

Hi,

I am taking back the elite radiant 100w heater... it can't keep up with
my 33gal tank.

It is cracked to the max and the little temp sticker shows 24C.

I'm going to switch to a 200W heater one...

Efficiency wise though what is better, a 200w heater or 2 100w heaters?

I know two is more safe, but I am looking at efficiency (energy use)
and stability of temperature in the tank?

Tomorrow I should be getting some fish, but I still need to get some
rocks for the bottom... man it is hard to choose them... they all look
great and the tank can only take so many... :)
At Walmart they have a old bell with cracks in it in different sizes.
It really looks great, and has hols for the fish to swim through or
hide... I think I will get one of those.
But I still need at least another rock decoration...

I want to have bottom crawlers so I don't the bottom to be just flat
gravel, I want to give some excitment to those buggers. :)

[JG]

Do yourself a favour and upgrade your heater from a radiant to a tronic, ebo
or something more reliable. Cheap heaters aren't worth it in the long run.
Can anyone say fish stew?!
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I am taking back the elite radiant 100w heater... it can't keep up with
> my 33gal tank.
>
> It is cracked to the max and the little temp sticker shows 24C.
>
> I'm going to switch to a 200W heater one...
>
> Efficiency wise though what is better, a 200w heater or 2 100w heaters?
>
> I know two is more safe, but I am looking at efficiency (energy use)
> and stability of temperature in the tank?
>
> Tomorrow I should be getting some fish, but I still need to get some
> rocks for the bottom... man it is hard to choose them... they all look
> great and the tank can only take so many... :)
> At Walmart they have a old bell with cracks in it in different sizes.
> It really looks great, and has hols for the fish to swim through or
> hide... I think I will get one of those.
> But I still need at least another rock decoration...
>
> I want to have bottom crawlers so I don't the bottom to be just flat
> gravel, I want to give some excitment to those buggers. :)
>

[[email protected]]

Are Radiant that bad?

Anyway I just got an aquaclear 70 300w heater... it says submersible
which I believe allows me to submerge it and put it more towards the
bottom of the tank, as everybody knows heat rises. :)

I got the 300w instead of the 200w because the price was the same for
whatever reason.
I hope I didn't do a mistake. :?

My heating problems should be resolved with this guy. :)

[[email protected]]

You should get two 100w heaters. Heaters can get stuck at high, if you
have a 300w heater in a 33 gal tank, you end up with fish soup.

[Billy]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I am taking back the elite radiant 100w heater... it can't keep up
> with
> my 33gal tank.
>
> It is cracked to the max and the little temp sticker shows 24C.
>

I've found those temp stickers to be seriously inaccurate. I have a
45 gallon with a 100w heater that keeps the tank at 78F (25.5C)
without a problem. I keep my house about 68-70F(20C to 21C)
Admittedly, it's an Ebo-Jager.

[[email protected]]

I know that they are not very accurate.
But the fact is that I had it maxed out and the sticker doesn't go
higher than 24C.
I plan on getting thermometer... Walmart sells a digital one for less
than $3Cad but they are out of stock :(

I just felt that I didn't have any room left with the 100W heater.

[[email protected]]

Gosh I really hope not. :)

I would be upset for weeks if that happened.

[NetMax]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Are Radiant that bad?
>
> Anyway I just got an aquaclear 70 300w heater... it says submersible
> which I believe allows me to submerge it and put it more towards the
> bottom of the tank, as everybody knows heat rises. :)
>
> I got the 300w instead of the 200w because the price was the same for
> whatever reason.
> I hope I didn't do a mistake. :?
>
> My heating problems should be resolved with this guy. :)



http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/heaters/heaters.shtml for most of your
heater questions : )

Is a 200w more efficient than two 100w? No. Electric heaters don't have
the less efficient start or end stage of a fuel fired heater, furnace or
motor. They convert almost 100% of their energy into heat. For most
devices, heat is a waste to be avoided, but for electric heaters with no
moving parts, it's pretty easy to design something which is good at being
wasteful ;~).

Was buying the 300w heater a mistake... a little bit (imo). They are
about the same price because they are essentially identical. The heating
element (possibly the only difference between the two) is constructed to
have a slightly lower resistance (48 instead of 72 ohms), drawing more
electricity (2.5 instead of 1.7 amps). The price difference to the
manufacturer might be zero.

The 300w heater will get you into trouble faster if it fails *and* if it
fails by getting stuck in the ON position, especially when used in
smaller tanks than it should be used. Your response time to detect and
react to a problem will have been shortened, so then you have to ask
yourself what the probability of a failure in the stuck ON position is.
FWIW, heaters with analog thermostats are more prone to sticking ON and
than those with digital thermostats, and if the heating element opens,
then both types fail off, and if the glass tube breaks, I'm not sure if
the 200w vs 300w question will have much difference ;~).

Also FWIW, I tend to oversize my heaters, but because with multiple
tanks, if you find yourself holding your last heater, it's better that
it's too big than too small (and I never seem to run out of too-small
heaters).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[[email protected]]

Thanks for your reply and great website btw.

I read your piece about heaters and I did wonder about putting this new
heater I got horizontally.

I thought that way the heater would cover a bigger area, and could be
mounted lower on the tank because heat rises so would be more
efficient.

Anyway I tried and it is an eye sore, because it is almost half size
the tank in length it becomes very visible and also they tend to get
very hot, I am afraid fish would get scalded by it...

I didn't quite understand your comment "Some submersibles cycle too
slowly in a horizontal position, as they were already designed with a
lag time to compensate for rising heat"

what do you mean by that? What lag time is it?

Again great site, I will spend some time reading it. :)

[JG]

I wouldn't say that the Radiant is bad. It's just not as reliable, in my
experience and many others. Any heater can fail, but I'd rather go with a
heater that has proven it's reliability over the years like an Ebo. The
Hagen heaters aren't bad and are also quite economical. I agree with NetMax
about keeping a 200w instead of a 300w. I run 150watt heaters in my 42G
tanks and everything is fine. My wife heats the house quite well so the
heaters rarely come on unless I have a window open in the winter, as I
sometimes do. :)
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Are Radiant that bad?
>
> Anyway I just got an aquaclear 70 300w heater... it says submersible
> which I believe allows me to submerge it and put it more towards the
> bottom of the tank, as everybody knows heat rises. :)
>
> I got the 300w instead of the 200w because the price was the same for
> whatever reason.
> I hope I didn't do a mistake. :?
>
> My heating problems should be resolved with this guy. :)
>

[Margolis]

Go to a real fish store and get a real thermometer first. I have seen those
stick on ones so far off your water could be 40°C and still read below 20.
And don't trust any crap you buy at walmart.

that being said, 100W is too small for your size tank, 200W would be better.
This also depends on the room temp and the tank temp desired.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Margolis]

imo, you should also use quality heaters ONLY. Something like ebo-jager or
marineland visitherm. Not no-name brands like "elite"

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Elaine T]

Margolis wrote:
> Go to a real fish store and get a real thermometer first. I have seen those
> stick on ones so far off your water could be 40°C and still read below 20.
> And don't trust any crap you buy at walmart.
>
> that being said, 100W is too small for your size tank, 200W would be better.
> This also depends on the room temp and the tank temp desired.
>
What sort of real thermometer? I've seen traditional red alcohol
thermometers very far out of calibration. I usually look at all the
thermometers on the wall to decide on a consensus room temperature.
Usually many of both the stick-on and red alcohol thermometers are 1-2
degrees off, and some are as much as 5 degrees off.

Then I buy a thermometer that has the consensus room temperature, hoping
it is reasonably well calibrated. My red alcohol and stick-on
thermometers bought in this method agree perfectly.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> Margolis wrote:
>> Go to a real fish store and get a real thermometer first. I have seen
>> those stick on ones so far off your water could be 40°C and still read
>> below 20. And don't trust any crap you buy at walmart.
>>
>> that being said, 100W is too small for your size tank, 200W would be
>> better. This also depends on the room temp and the tank temp desired.
>>
> What sort of real thermometer? I've seen traditional red alcohol
> thermometers very far out of calibration. I usually look at all the
> thermometers on the wall to decide on a consensus room temperature.
> Usually many of both the stick-on and red alcohol thermometers are 1-2
> degrees off, and some are as much as 5 degrees off.
>
> Then I buy a thermometer that has the consensus room temperature,
> hoping it is reasonably well calibrated. My red alcohol and stick-on
> thermometers bought in this method agree perfectly.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

If I can jump into this one, all the thermometers on the market have
either an offset or a characteristic which offsets them, or develop an
offset with age or impact. I don't recommend buying expensive
thermometers. The strategy I follow is to use an inexpensive emulsion
strip thermometer and locate it several inches below the waterline on the
exterior corner opposite from my heater location. I get the type with
the biggest numbers (green=temperature and blue or brown means between
temperature gradients). These are under $5 (typically $3), seem to have
a very long life expectancy and operate relatively consistently. This
gives me good readability for an error condition, good reliability and
accurate readings (in a relative sense).

Then I buy one good thermometer to use as my reference (currently it's a
digital oven roast thermometer which cost me $15 and is very accurate).
After I get a tank up and running, I'll check the water temperature in
various locations with the reference, adjust water flow as required, note
the difference in readings with the strip thermometer outside the tank,
and then if needed, I dial the heater 1 or 2 degrees higher or lower.
Unless your room temperature changes a lot, or gets very cold or the tank
gets strong cool drafts, I find that these cheap plastic strip
thermometers do the job nicely. They also don't wander inside the tank,
get covered in algae, break or run their batteries down, jmo :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Margolis]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> Margolis wrote:
>>
> What sort of real thermometer? I've seen traditional red alcohol
> thermometers very far out of calibration. I usually look at all the
> thermometers on the wall to decide on a consensus room temperature.
> Usually many of both the stick-on and red alcohol thermometers are 1-2
> degrees off, and some are as much as 5 degrees off.
>
> Then I buy a thermometer that has the consensus room temperature, hoping
> it is reasonably well calibrated. My red alcohol and stick-on
> thermometers bought in this method agree perfectly.
>


those cheap glass thermometers may not be extremely "accurate", but they do
a much better job by and large than the stick on variety. Just bending the
stick on variety a little bit when attaching them can throw them way out of
wack. Plus the thicker the glass is the less accurate they are. Not saying
the stick ons are useless, but you have to be careful, which you are. I use
cheap ($6.99) coralife digital thermometers. They aren't exactly precise,
but better than any of the stick on ones I have found since aquarium
pharmicueticals stopped making the doc wellfish thermometers. they were the
only stick ons that I ever used that were extremely accurate, even on large
tanks.

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Nikki Casali]

NetMax wrote:
> Then I buy one good thermometer to use as my reference (currently it's a
> digital oven roast thermometer which cost me $15 and is very accurate).

How do you know it's accurate?

I bought a digital thermometer but paid extra for a calibration
certificate. The certificate says how many degrees off the thermometer
is at 25 degrees C. Luckily, this thermometer has a 0 offset, so no
arithmetic when reading the temp. It's useful to see how far off the
cheaper digital thermometers are. 2 degrees C in some cases.

But the sole purpose of the accuracy is so that I can cure ich by
pushing the tank temperature to 34 degrees C and not a degree more or
less. Haven't needed it yet...

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> NetMax wrote:
>> Then I buy one good thermometer to use as my reference (currently it's
>> a digital oven roast thermometer which cost me $15 and is very
>> accurate).
>
> How do you know it's accurate?

Generally speaking, you know it's accurate by the specifications. I also
have a NIST certified infra-red thermometer at work which I could bring
home to compare ;~), but the specs and the repeatability of the
measurements on the meat thermometer gave me the confidence that I was
looking for.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> I bought a digital thermometer but paid extra for a calibration
> certificate. The certificate says how many degrees off the thermometer
> is at 25 degrees C. Luckily, this thermometer has a 0 offset, so no
> arithmetic when reading the temp. It's useful to see how far off the
> cheaper digital thermometers are. 2 degrees C in some cases.
>
> But the sole purpose of the accuracy is so that I can cure ich by
> pushing the tank temperature to 34 degrees C and not a degree more or
> less. Haven't needed it yet...
>
> Nikki
>

[[email protected]]

It happened to others. That is why I use two low wattage heaters.

[Ozdude]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> Simply re-orient the heater to assess the difference. Note that all the
> heater problems above are much more commonly caused by insufficient water
> circulation past the heater, so have that looked after first. In fact,
> with enough circulation, you minimize the heater's suceptibility to
> non-optimal orientation (which is why they work well in canister filter
> configurations).

Arghh! You're freaking me out about my two 100W Resun heaters!!! :)

The sooner I get this canister filter the better, then I can route the
output to flow forcefully over my two horizontally mounted submersibles.

Where they are atm, left rear and right rear corners, horizontal about 3cm
above the substrate, I don't think they are getting fantastic circulation
past them, particularly the right one which is behind a forrest of Blue
Stricta and can't be seen from the front of the tank.

At least with the canister output I can put it low down on the same level as
the heaters and cause the flow to spiral upwards to the inlet around the
outside of the tank. As it is currently, two internals spiral flow downwards
from the surface and I am starting to freak that that isn't sufficient total
tank circulation - which I must add, seems to be an art in itelf - too many
plants in the way.

I've seen a two part heater at LFS#1 which is quite expensive, so I presume
this is the digital type heater you mention on your web site? Do you think
this would be better than two 100W Chinese heaters with unknown hysterisis
characteristics?

There hasn't been a problem so far with them and they only come on when the
evening temparture drops below 26C as it did 10 days or so ago. It's still
warm here at night, so I haven't really been worried about the heaters and
their function.

FYI, the dials are set to 24C but they keep the tank at 26C, so your
alignment advice on the web site is invaluable for a novice like myself ;)

Thanks,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[NetMax]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
>> Simply re-orient the heater to assess the difference. Note that all
>> the heater problems above are much more commonly caused by
>> insufficient water circulation past the heater, so have that looked
>> after first. In fact, with enough circulation, you minimize the
>> heater's suceptibility to non-optimal orientation (which is why they
>> work well in canister filter configurations).
>
> Arghh! You're freaking me out about my two 100W Resun heaters!!! :)
>
> The sooner I get this canister filter the better, then I can route the
> output to flow forcefully over my two horizontally mounted
> submersibles.
>
> Where they are atm, left rear and right rear corners, horizontal about
> 3cm above the substrate, I don't think they are getting fantastic
> circulation past them, particularly the right one which is behind a
> forrest of Blue Stricta and can't be seen from the front of the tank.
>
> At least with the canister output I can put it low down on the same
> level as the heaters and cause the flow to spiral upwards to the inlet
> around the outside of the tank. As it is currently, two internals
> spiral flow downwards from the surface and I am starting to freak that
> that isn't sufficient total tank circulation - which I must add, seems
> to be an art in itelf - too many plants in the way.
>
> I've seen a two part heater at LFS#1 which is quite expensive, so I
> presume this is the digital type heater you mention on your web site?
> Do you think this would be better than two 100W Chinese heaters with
> unknown hysterisis characteristics?

Nope. Digital heater refers to the type of thermostat. While analog
heaters uses a bimetal thermostat, digital heaters typically use a
thermistor (or a T junction if really fancy ;~) to monitor the
temperature. They further process the signal to add that hysterisis
(also keeps the relay (if used) from chattering. I think some (most?) of
the digital heaters have also gotten rid of the relay, and are using some
electronic method to control the power to the elements (ie: J-FET or
something). A two part heater uses a remote thermostat, so it's
unaffected by the heating burst. Being a 2-part does not mean that it's
analog or digital, but it's probably digital (in today's market).

> There hasn't been a problem so far with them and they only come on when
> the evening temparture drops below 26C as it did 10 days or so ago.
> It's still warm here at night, so I haven't really been worried about
> the heaters and their function.
>
> FYI, the dials are set to 24C but they keep the tank at 26C, so your
> alignment advice on the web site is invaluable for a novice like myself
> ;)

Heaters are calibrated on a running assembly line, so a 2C offset might
be as good as it gets.

...novice like yourself?? bs ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Thanks,
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>