Sick Ram

[Mandy]

Hey guys,

It's been weeks - everything has been going well, the ich was cured,
the plants are growing like crazy...

A few days ago I noticed my female Blue Ram (Priscilla) at the top of
the tank breathing hard. Elvis wasn't chasing her and now completely
ignores her. She's not eating, she's looking thinner and a little
sunken in the abdomen and it seems like she's trying to get air from
above the water line. I don't think she's going to live long if I
don't figure this out...

All the other fish are thriving.

37 gallon heavily planted
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Ph - 7.6

Co2 stopped working a few weeks ago - I think I sprung a leak in the
line and I've been too busy to buy more. I have some algae but it's not
bothering the other fish and it's not terrible.

Two blue rams
Two young angels
15 Cardinals
4 otos (lost one in the ich terror)

Thoughts?

[2pods]

>
> 37 gallon heavily planted
> Ammonia - 0
> Nitrite - 0
> Nitrate - 0
> Ph - 7.6
>

Just wondered about the Nitrate, 0 ?
Must be your plants eating it :-)

I have 2 heavily planted tanks whose Nitrate varies from 5 to 10
Weather that would relate to your sick fish I don't know, just a thought.

Peter

[Elaine T]

Mandy wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> It's been weeks - everything has been going well, the ich was cured,
> the plants are growing like crazy...
>
> A few days ago I noticed my female Blue Ram (Priscilla) at the top of
> the tank breathing hard. Elvis wasn't chasing her and now completely
> ignores her. She's not eating, she's looking thinner and a little
> sunken in the abdomen and it seems like she's trying to get air from
> above the water line. I don't think she's going to live long if I
> don't figure this out...
>
> All the other fish are thriving.
>
> 37 gallon heavily planted
> Ammonia - 0
> Nitrite - 0
> Nitrate - 0
> Ph - 7.6
>
> Co2 stopped working a few weeks ago - I think I sprung a leak in the
> line and I've been too busy to buy more. I have some algae but it's not
> bothering the other fish and it's not terrible.
>
> Two blue rams
> Two young angels
> 15 Cardinals
> 4 otos (lost one in the ich terror)
>
> Thoughts?
>
Bummer. Sick rams are tough. If you have a quarantine tank that is
cycled, move her there to be sure the other fish don't catch anything
from her.

It sounds like she has an internal infection, but it's hard to know
what. Internal bacterial infections, protozoans, and fish TB can all
cause wasting. Whatever she has is probably in her gills as well. You
could try adding some copper in case it is protozoal. Melafix may also
help. In the past I would have recommended metronidazole in quarantine,
but I've since learned that using antibiotics in tankwater is quite
dangerous, since you can grow resistant fish TB.

If this were my ram, I think I'd try for ideal ram conditions in a
quarantine tank in the hopes that the fish might be able to fight the
disease off. Ideal conditions for rams are warm, soft water, plenty of
cover, and low lighting. So, start with tankwater so there's no stress.
Add a copper remedy and Melafix. Add cover - lengths of PVC, clay
pots, rocks, plant trimmings, or anything else handy. Filter over peat
which will soften the water and add beneficial blackwater acids, and
gradually raise the temperature to 80 degrees. Change small amounts of
water as often as you can stand to keep the water quality extremely
high, and use half rain, RO or distilled water in the water changes if
you can. Of course, use AmQuel or zeolites to manage ammonia if necessary.

Without a quarantine, remove any carbon and treat your tank with one
dose each of copper medicine and Melafix. I might even filter the
display tank over peat since all your other fish will like it too. You
could add blackwater extract instead but I don't know whether it's as
good as peat. You can remove the tea color from the peat later with carbon.

This may or may not work, and I'd actually rate her getting well as a
longshot. Rams are just SO darned sensitive and hard to heal that you
may lose her despite your best efforts.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Mandy]

Hi Elaine,

I saw this after I got back from the LFS. I put her in a hospital tank
and am treating with maracyn 2, am slowly raising the temp (lfs says
to 90 degrees!!!) and am leaving the lights off. Have fake plants and
several caves for her to hide in. She has a bunch of snails to keep
her company (have been waiting for dwarf puffers to come in but at this
rate the snails will all be too big for the puffers to eat!)

Would you advise I change course of action at this point? How do I
soften the water for her?

Thanks.

[Elaine T]

Mandy wrote:
> Hi Elaine,
>
> I saw this after I got back from the LFS. I put her in a hospital tank
> and am treating with maracyn 2, am slowly raising the temp (lfs says
> to 90 degrees!!!) and am leaving the lights off. Have fake plants and
> several caves for her to hide in. She has a bunch of snails to keep
> her company (have been waiting for dwarf puffers to come in but at this
> rate the snails will all be too big for the puffers to eat!)
>
> Would you advise I change course of action at this point? How do I
> soften the water for her?
>
> Thanks.
>
I'm not sure what you will gain by going to 90 degrees except for dead
snails. Ich, costia, and velvet all have plenty of trouble reproducing
at 85.

Maracyn 2 is minocycline. It's one of the antibiotics that can be used
against Mycobacterium marinum (fish TB) and many other infections in
both fish and humans. Not my first choice but it could work, if
Priscilla happens to have a bacterial infection that responds to it. I
guess it's safest to go with the full length dosage Mardel suggests
rather than quitting partway through to best avoid raising resistant
bacteria. Your biofiltration should be OK but test for ammonia daily
just in case.

If the Maracyn is a bust, filter it out with carbon and switch to copper
and Melafix in an attempt to rid her of parasites (my first thought).
You could also try metronidazole - I would have recommended that as an
absolute first choice of treatment except that I've sworn off adding
antibiotics to water.

Once you're eventually done treating Priscilla, bleach your hospital
well for your own safety.

To soften and acidify the water so it's more to her taste, do a series
of small daily water changes with RO or distilled water, filter over
peat, or add blackwater extract (gradually). You don't want to suddenly
soften the water because it would damage her gills, but rather soften it
gradually, a little bit each day. My first choice would be peat
filtration because it's easy and gives nice, stable, blackwater chemistry.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Mandy]

Thanks, Elaine. Do you happen to know if there are any anti parasite
treatments that can be used jointly with Maracyn 2?

[Richard Sexton]

In article . com>,
Mandy > wrote:
>Thanks, Elaine. Do you happen to know if there are any anti parasite
>treatments that can be used jointly with Maracyn 2?

Pleae, if you haven't read this please please please do:
http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/

Forget the maracyn, it's not doiing any good in the aquarium
water anyway and it's extremely unlikely you have a bacterial
infection anayway. Find an anti-parassitic or antihelminthic medication
that contains copper. Put the fish in a bare tank and treat per the
directions.

Every day, change all the water and dose again. An easy way to do with
is with two one gallon glass jars. Fish both with water, let age 24
hours. Put the fish on one, doze. Next day put the fish in the other
one, dose. Clean, with vinegar, ther old one, refill with fresh
water. Copper rpecipitates out as copper carbonate, so you need
to replenish the medication daily. It'll stick to the walls of the
glass to, so you need to use winegar to get rid of it, plus the
vinegar sterilizes the har.

How long you need to do this for depends on the pathogen you
have. I'd do it for 3 weeks. IIRC you have a few zebras so it might
be best to use 2 five gal tanks.

--
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[Elaine T]

Mandy wrote:
> Thanks, Elaine. Do you happen to know if there are any anti parasite
> treatments that can be used jointly with Maracyn 2?
>
I'm not crazy about putting too many drugs in the water at once. It
tends to create water quality and/or toxicity problems. Adding medicine
to the water is really a catch-22 with sensitive fish like rams because
a sick ram needs very clean, soft water, while medications add dissolved
solids and can mess with bacterial filtration.

Try adding a single dose of copper to the tank (add at water changes to
maintain the doseage) until you're done with the Maracyn 2. Copper
shouldn't do much to the water quality. I do not have any idea whether
metronidazole and Maracyn 2 are compatible. Perhaps someone else knows.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Mandy]

Priscilla died that evening. :(

I'm soooo sad. Elvis is scared of me now. He hides and won't even
come out for live worms if I'm near the tank. I didn't cause a
comotion when I took her out to put her in the hospital tank. She was
right at the top and didn't even try to escape...

What was once so pleasurable has become a source of sadness.

And I have blue green algae now, too. Damn.

[Gill Passman]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Priscilla died that evening. :(
>
> I'm soooo sad. Elvis is scared of me now. He hides and won't even
> come out for live worms if I'm near the tank. I didn't cause a
> comotion when I took her out to put her in the hospital tank. She was
> right at the top and didn't even try to escape...
>
> What was once so pleasurable has become a source of sadness.
>
> And I have blue green algae now, too. Damn.
>
Hey, sorry for your loss :-) The only fish I've had probs with are the
Rams....don't know why

I first introduced 3 together, 2 died within hours.....had one survive in a
different tank and bought a new one who thrived in the main community tank
for weeks with no probs...put the two back together and lost both....no idea
why....fantastic fish and I loved them to bits...specially they seemed to
have a certain amount of dignity and aura about them....I'd love to keep
them again but I'm too worried that'll lose them....

Wishing you luck with Elvis

Gill

[Elaine T]

Mandy wrote:
> Priscilla died that evening. :(
>
> I'm soooo sad. Elvis is scared of me now. He hides and won't even
> come out for live worms if I'm near the tank. I didn't cause a
> comotion when I took her out to put her in the hospital tank. She was
> right at the top and didn't even try to escape...
>
> What was once so pleasurable has become a source of sadness.
>
> And I have blue green algae now, too. Damn.
>
Aww. I'm so sorry. Elvis is probably simply adjusting to being alone.
I'm sure he'll be out again.

I know exactly how you feel about rams. My #$%&*#$ ram has what I think
is lymphocystis on her nose and has been showing stress colors since the
last water change. And just in time for me to go out of town.

Did you read the threads in r.a.f.plants about blue green algae?
Hopefully the thread is still there. If you have a plant tank, it's
easy - just follow Tom Barr's instructions.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[default]

"Mandy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Priscilla died that evening. :(
>
> I'm soooo sad. Elvis is scared of me now. He hides and won't even
> come out for live worms if I'm near the tank. I didn't cause a
> comotion when I took her out to put her in the hospital tank. She
was
> right at the top and didn't even try to escape...
>
> What was once so pleasurable has become a source of sadness.
>
> And I have blue green algae now, too. Damn.


Darn. Sorry to hear about Priscilla. Sick happens.

Blue green algae is just another stage you get to experience on your
way to Aqua nirvana, I'm afriad. It's easy to get rid of with a black
out. The next 3 stages of algae are harder.... :>)

steve

[Mandy]

I hadn't read that but I will now.

Blue /green is a pretty color for something so icky! lol My poor
anubias look terrible!

I don't even want to get a new female - I'm so scared to introduce
anything new to the group. I'm going to wait until I get the algae
completely under control and then maybe another month. Then I'll keep
the ram in the 5.5 gallon with the snails for another month... she'll
be bored but I'll be sure.

Thanks for the kind words. :)