Eat the Brine Shrimp, Darnit!

[Lisa]

Hello,

Being a fairly new aquarium owner, of course I want to feed my fish
great food. My plan was to alternate frozen bloodworms with frozen
brine shrimp and a high-quality flake food. (Fast day every Wed.)

The bloodworms and brine shrimp I bought in frozen "gumdrops" packages
from my LFS - impressive ease of storage and delivery, I thought. All
the fish scarf up the bloodworms, and the flake seems to be received
OK, but every *single* fish in my tank performs the famous "patooie"
maneuver - i.e., spits out - the brine shrimp! They don't seem to care
for the BS at all. Why do they do this? I thought Brine Shrimp were a
delicacy that would be eaten with relish.

I don't want to risk fouling the water with uneaten brine shrimp.
(Although my water readings are 0-0-10 with Am./Nitrite/Nitrate) Should
I stop feeding the BS? Keep feeding the BS? Switch to live BS from my
LFS?

For the record, my setup is as follows:
2 male Dwarf Gouramis
6 cory cats
1 juvenile angelfish (US nickel-sized, 1-in. body)
in a 50-gallon bowfront that is about 3 months old (cycled *I think*
with Biospira.)

Both gouramis and the angelfish are performing the "patooie" maneuver
on the Brine Shrimp. I haven't observed what the corys do with it - if
anything.

Thanks for any insights.

- Lisa

[Ozdude]

"Lisa" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The bloodworms and brine shrimp I bought in frozen "gumdrops" packages
> from my LFS - impressive ease of storage and delivery, I thought. All
> the fish scarf up the bloodworms, and the flake seems to be received
> OK, but every *single* fish in my tank performs the famous "patooie"
> maneuver - i.e., spits out - the brine shrimp! They don't seem to care
> for the BS at all. Why do they do this? I thought Brine Shrimp were a
> delicacy that would be eaten with relish.

I use dried brine shrimp pellets because the frozen stuff is too expensive
for me, but the same thing happens in my mainly Tetra tank. They will ignore
the brine until there is nothing else to eat.

I have a sword and Gourami too and I've noticed over the months that in
order of preference my fish like this:

Live Mosquito larvae (frantic dashing to get these)
Frozen Blood worm (less frantic, but still a tank wide feeding frenzy)
Tropical Veggie flake
Tropical Protein flake
Multi-vitamin floating pellets
Hikari sinking disc
Hikari sinking algae wafer
Dried Brine Shrimp pellet

Given the mix of fish you have I think frozen blood worm and flakes should
be enough to give them a varied enough diet and keep their bellies full ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Larry]

Hi Lisa,

I use the frozen cubes too. First time I introduced them, none ate
them. Second time however, the tetras, keyholes, yellow lab and even
the red tail shark! go into a frenzy when they are thrown in.

All the best,

Larry

[Elaine T]

Lisa wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Being a fairly new aquarium owner, of course I want to feed my fish
> great food. My plan was to alternate frozen bloodworms with frozen
> brine shrimp and a high-quality flake food. (Fast day every Wed.)
>
> The bloodworms and brine shrimp I bought in frozen "gumdrops" packages
> from my LFS - impressive ease of storage and delivery, I thought. All
> the fish scarf up the bloodworms, and the flake seems to be received
> OK, but every *single* fish in my tank performs the famous "patooie"
> maneuver - i.e., spits out - the brine shrimp! They don't seem to care
> for the BS at all. Why do they do this? I thought Brine Shrimp were a
> delicacy that would be eaten with relish.
>
Eh. Unless they're gut loaded with spirulina, adult brine shrimp have
all the nutritional value of potato chips. Throw 'em out. If your
store has them, try live blackworms instead.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly "Lisa" > Spake Unto All:

>Being a fairly new aquarium owner, of course I want to feed my fish
>great food. My plan was to alternate frozen bloodworms with frozen
>brine shrimp and a high-quality flake food. (Fast day every Wed.)

Good plan. Even greater variety wouldnt hurt. Shrimp meat is, for
instance, excellent food.

>OK, but every *single* fish in my tank performs the famous "patooie"
>maneuver - i.e., spits out - the brine shrimp!

Yeah, I've seen that too. I get the impression artemia is often
misinterpreted as "not food" by the fish, so they act like it'd been a
piece of debris, and spit it out. Especially fish which are not used
to eating artemia do this, it seems to be an acquired taste. If you
fed nothing but artemia for a week, I'm pretty sure they'd, after
that, happily eat it.

Then there's fish who get used to eating something, and are then
difficult to get to eat anything else. I've, however, mainly seen this
in wild-caugt fish, and none of your fish should be.

[Angrie.Woman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
>
> I use dried brine shrimp pellets because the frozen stuff is too expensive
> for me, but the same thing happens in my mainly Tetra tank. They will
> ignore the brine until there is nothing else to eat.
>

DO pet shops sell live brine shrimp any more? I asked at two stores (chains,
because I can't find any LFS's here) and the young clerks looked at me like
I was speaking Chinese.

One of them did offer me a Sea Monkey type kit though.

A

[Victor Martinez]

Angrie.Woman wrote:
> DO pet shops sell live brine shrimp any more? I asked at two stores (chains,

Good fish stores do.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Victor Martinez]

Elaine T wrote:
> Eh. Unless they're gut loaded with spirulina, adult brine shrimp have
> all the nutritional value of potato chips. Throw 'em out. If your

No true at all. Not only are brine shrimp high in protein, they also
have polyunsaturated fats which are easily digested. Adult brine shrimp
are *very* good food for fish.

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Ozdude]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> u...
>>
>>
>> I use dried brine shrimp pellets because the frozen stuff is too
>> expensive for me, but the same thing happens in my mainly Tetra tank.
>> They will ignore the brine until there is nothing else to eat.
>>
>
> DO pet shops sell live brine shrimp any more? I asked at two stores
> (chains, because I can't find any LFS's here) and the young clerks looked
> at me like I was speaking Chinese.
>
> One of them did offer me a Sea Monkey type kit though.

The Pet Warehouse near me sells them, but you have to order them in - they
don't keep them "in stock".

They sell plenty of frozen ones though, but even these are too expensive for
me.

You can buy a hatchery kit as well from them, but it's all too much bother
to be honest.

It's far easier and much more fun, and a more complete nutritional feed to
watch them eat live mosquito larvae:

I have a document here somewhere which details using 7 containers with
nothing more than rain water and gum leaves in the bottoms, staggered over 7
days, where you have a continuous supply of mosquito larvae at hand - I may
do it this week. I know the mozzies are around because they keep buzzing me
when I'm in bed, so I think I should harness them while they are around ;)

I've found 2L plastic containers with single pot handles on them for A$0.90
ea. at the local Chinese discount store which are perfect for mozzie
rearing, and I know all of my current fish go absolutely berserk trying to
get their fill, and it would be good for any Betta I plan on getting in the
future - brine pellets would be bad for a Betta in my estimation as they
would bloat up on them.

I got sucked in by the shrimp pellet packing "...contains valuable roughage,
vital for avoiding constipation..." - I know the sword has a longer
digestive tract than most of the rest of the fish in the tank, perhaps the
Gourami's is longer, and the sword doesn't mind the pellets but only after a
thorough pecking of fresh algae from plant leaves - she knows about a
balanced diet this one ;)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Richard Sexton]

>> The bloodworms and brine shrimp I bought in frozen "gumdrops" packages
>> from my LFS - impressive ease of storage and delivery, I thought. All
>> the fish scarf up the bloodworms, and the flake seems to be received
>> OK, but every *single* fish in my tank performs the famous "patooie"
>> maneuver - i.e., spits out - the brine shrimp! They don't seem to care
>> for the BS at all. Why do they do this? I thought Brine Shrimp were a
>> delicacy that would be eaten with relish.
>>
>Eh. Unless they're gut loaded with spirulina, adult brine shrimp have
>all the nutritional value of potato chips. Throw 'em out. If your
>store has them, try live blackworms instead.

The frozen ones are pretty useelss IMO, but tgood live ones that are red
or even green are ok to alternate with say live balackworms, which
you don't want to feed every day for extended periods.

I owulnd't say there's no nutritional value to adult brine shrimp,
just not much. But it's an important soulce of roughage and I'd
suspect vitamina and minderals - certainly iodine I'd think.
Just not much protein. Freshly (ie within 4 hours) hatched
brine shrimp is another story.




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[Richard Sexton]

>No true at all. Not only are brine shrimp high in protein,

Can you cite a reference that backs this up?


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[Gfishery]

"Ozdude" wrote:
> I have a document here somewhere which details using 7 containers with
> nothing more than rain water and gum leaves in the bottoms, staggered over 7
> days, where you have a continuous supply of mosquito larvae at hand - I may
> do it this week. I know the mozzies are around because they keep buzzing me
> when I'm in bed, so I think I should harness them while they are around ;)

Can't do that here :(
West Nile virus scare made everyone ensure no mosquitoes were breeding anywhere.
State authorities can get pretty mean.

[Angrie.Woman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
> ...
>>

>
> I have a document here somewhere which details using 7 containers with
> nothing more than rain water and gum leaves in the bottoms, staggered over
> 7 days, where you have a continuous supply of mosquito larvae at hand - I
> may do it this week. I know the mozzies are around because they keep
> buzzing me when I'm in bed, so I think I should harness them while they
> are around ;)

Mosquito larvae would be a seasonal treat here, but I doubt I'd need the gum
leaves. All I would need to do is to leave a cup of water out on the porch.

All these years of me nagging the DH and kids to not let things fill up with
water outside - now I'm going to start scolding them for emptying out my
standing water.


....snicker...
A

[Angrie.Woman]

"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> Angrie.Woman wrote:
>> DO pet shops sell live brine shrimp any more? I asked at two stores
>> (chains,
>
> Good fish stores do.

The only "good" stores within a 45 minute drive here are marine fish only.
(Odd, because I live in a pretty densely populated suburb of Chicago.) But
anyway - do marine fish keepers have any use for them? I could try those
stores, I suppose.

A

[Elaine T]

Richard Sexton wrote:
>>>The bloodworms and brine shrimp I bought in frozen "gumdrops" packages
>>>from my LFS - impressive ease of storage and delivery, I thought. All
>>>the fish scarf up the bloodworms, and the flake seems to be received
>>>OK, but every *single* fish in my tank performs the famous "patooie"
>>>maneuver - i.e., spits out - the brine shrimp! They don't seem to care
>>>for the BS at all. Why do they do this? I thought Brine Shrimp were a
>>>delicacy that would be eaten with relish.
>>>
>>
>>Eh. Unless they're gut loaded with spirulina, adult brine shrimp have
>>all the nutritional value of potato chips. Throw 'em out. If your
>>store has them, try live blackworms instead.
>
>
> The frozen ones are pretty useelss IMO, but tgood live ones that are red
> or even green are ok to alternate with say live balackworms, which
> you don't want to feed every day for extended periods.
>
> I owulnd't say there's no nutritional value to adult brine shrimp,
> just not much. But it's an important soulce of roughage and I'd
> suspect vitamina and minderals - certainly iodine I'd think.
> Just not much protein. Freshly (ie within 4 hours) hatched
> brine shrimp is another story.
>
Brine shrimp napulii are fantastic food. Even fish as large as
guppy-sized will often take them. The adult brine shrimp that are red
or green are probably the gut loaded ones I'm talking about.

Good point that blackworms shouldn't be a long-term daily food.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Victor Martinez]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> Can you cite a reference that backs this up?

Well, assuming that frozen and live brine shrimp have the same
composition, their nutritional content is:
6.8% protein, 1.5% fat, 1.2% fiber, all wet-basis with 86% water.
Source: Hikari bag of frozen brine shrimp

--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
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[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>>No true at all. Not only are brine shrimp high in protein,
>
>Can you cite a reference that backs this up?

I'm not the OP, but...
http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/article_artemia_torula.html

60% (dry weight) protein content seems quite respectable to me.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Victor Martinez > wrote:
>Richard Sexton wrote:
>> Can you cite a reference that backs this up?
>
>Well, assuming that frozen and live brine shrimp have the same
>composition, their nutritional content is:
>6.8% protein, 1.5% fat, 1.2% fiber, all wet-basis with 86% water.
>Source: Hikari bag of frozen brine shrimp

6% really isn't much protein in a fish food. I think you're
going to have toruble feeding them as a staple to fish
that are struct piscavores although fish that eat bugs and worms
would probably do ok.

That's quite low though compared to live shrimp which one
references cites at 12-66% depending on what you feed them;
although the question arises "which protein" and "are they
getting all the proteins they need?"

http://www.urmia.ac.ir/rcs/artemia/Conferences%20&%20Meetings/workshop%20papers/017-%20w-an%20investigation%20on.htm



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[Richard Sexton]

>http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/article_artemia_torula.html
>
>60% (dry weight) protein content seems quite respectable to me.

Sure, if you gut load them with high proetin food that's
very different and well understood. But that's not what
you get at the petshop. They're caught and flown out every
day and if you're lucky and get them before they've finished digesting
dinner (unlikely) then you may get some algae (green) or bacteria
and prozoans (red) in their gut. But if you're 12-24 hours late you
essentially get hair and shell and not much meat at all.

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[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>>http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/article_artemia_torula.html
>>
>>60% (dry weight) protein content seems quite respectable to me.
>
>Sure, if you gut load them with high proetin food that's
>very different and well understood.

No no no. That's San Francisco brand frozen Artemia. It's not gut
loaded. In fact the finding of the article is that there is no
significant difference between the gut-loaded artemia and the
non-gut-loaded artemia, from a nutritional POV.

The difference between those 6% and these 60% is that this is dry
weight. That's why dry foods generally have these very high protein
contents, and frozen food an apparent low protein content.

[Victor Martinez]

Richard Sexton wrote:
> 6% really isn't much protein in a fish food. I think you're

6.8% wet basis in this case is equivalent to 48.5% dry basis. I'd say
that's a pretty good protein content and fairly close to what commercial
staple food has.

> That's quite low though compared to live shrimp which one
> references cites at 12-66% depending on what you feed them;

66% protein on a wet basis is impossible. The range you are seeing is
because some people are reporting "dry" basis and others "wet" basis.


--
Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
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[Richard Sexton]

>66% protein on a wet basis is impossible. The range you are seeing is
>because some people are reporting "dry" basis and others "wet" basis.

Whatever. Argue with the scientists that wrote the referenced paper,
I'm just telling you what they published.

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[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mean_Chlorine > wrote:
>Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:
>
>>>http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/article_artemia_torula.html
>>>
>>>60% (dry weight) protein content seems quite respectable to me.
>>
>>Sure, if you gut load them with high proetin food that's
>>very different and well understood.
>
>No no no. That's San Francisco brand frozen Artemia. It's not gut
>loaded. In fact the finding of the article is that there is no
>significant difference between the gut-loaded artemia and the
>non-gut-loaded artemia, from a nutritional POV.
>
>The difference between those 6% and these 60% is that this is dry
>weight. That's why dry foods generally have these very high protein
>contents, and frozen food an apparent low protein content.
>

The paper you gave a url for say's they're 60%, frozen, not 6.

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[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>The paper you gave a url for say's they're 60%, frozen, not 6.

Dry weight. They dry the artemia before measuring the protein content.
It's all in there.

[Margolis]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm just telling you what they published.
>
>

No you're not, how about you reading it again. The lowest protein ratio in
that paper you linked to was 52% the highest was almost 67%. Even if the
lowest number is more prevalent it is still very good.

the fact remains that artemia are very good fish food. Not perfect, but
nothing is. How about this article:

http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/article_artemia_torula.html

they found problems with sea horses and pipefish fed exclusively artemia,
but they don't mention any problems with any other fish. And according to
several references in that article the average protein for adult artemia is
60%.

I have raised fish before exclusively on san fransisco bay brand brine
shrimp and they grew and developed better than fish fed tetra and wardley
flake food. Nt that I am recommending that, a balanced diet is much better.
But imho San Fansisco bay brine shrimp is a very important part of fishes
diet, and could be considered a staple.


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Margolis]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
>>
> Eh. Unless they're gut loaded with spirulina, adult brine shrimp have all
> the nutritional value of potato chips. Throw 'em out. If your


sorry, but adult brine shrimp are very good sources of protein. And a
required staple in a fishkeepers kitchen imho. See my response later in
this thread for more ;o)

--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[Margolis]

"Lisa" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello,
>
> Being a fairly new aquarium owner, of course I want to feed my fish
> great food. My plan was to alternate frozen bloodworms with frozen
> brine shrimp and a high-quality flake food. (Fast day every Wed.)
>
> The bloodworms and brine shrimp I bought in frozen "gumdrops" packages
> from my LFS - impressive ease of storage and delivery, I thought. All
> the fish scarf up the bloodworms, and the flake seems to be received
> OK, but every *single* fish in my tank performs the famous "patooie"
> maneuver - i.e., spits out - the brine shrimp! They don't seem to care
> for the BS at all. Why do they do this? I thought Brine Shrimp were a
> delicacy that would be eaten with relish.
>
> I don't want to risk fouling the water with uneaten brine shrimp.
> (Although my water readings are 0-0-10 with Am./Nitrite/Nitrate) Should
> I stop feeding the BS? Keep feeding the BS? Switch to live BS from my
> LFS?
>
> For the record, my setup is as follows:
> 2 male Dwarf Gouramis
> 6 cory cats
> 1 juvenile angelfish (US nickel-sized, 1-in. body)
> in a 50-gallon bowfront that is about 3 months old (cycled *I think*
> with Biospira.)
>
> Both gouramis and the angelfish are performing the "patooie" maneuver
> on the Brine Shrimp. I haven't observed what the corys do with it - if
> anything.
>
> Thanks for any insights.
>
> - Lisa
>


watch the fish eat the shrimp carefully. A lot of times a shrimp may be a
little "tough". The fish will suck it in, chew on it and spit it back out.
After doing this a few times they will then eat it. Just keep trying, they
are a very good source of protein for fish. Buy San Fransisco Bay brand
brine shrimp is you can get it. It is the best quality.

also make sure your shrimp don't have freezer burn. That will ruin the
stuff also.

I have never met a fish that didn't like brine shrimp, especially angels and
gouramis ;op


--

Margolis
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215212142/http://www.agqx.org/faqs/AGQ2FAQ.htm
http://www.unrealtower.org/faq

[winddancir]

Hmm. Big Problem with live food. Parasites and germs. Ditto for collecting your own mosqito larvae. With bettas, too much live bloodworm can give them dropsy.
My bettas and guppies go bonkers when I put in the frozen bloodworms & brineshrimp. My older bettas were fed on Hikari Bio-Gold, and my new ones only on frozen foods. The guppies get mostly flakes, with some microworms. I've noticed both fry and fully grown adults chowing down those microworms!
I also feed the bettas freezed-dried daphnia, and after they got over the fact that I wasn't poisoning them and tried a bite, they love those too!
Maybe my fish aren't as picky? Yeah, right! Every time I put something new in, they give me the look! "You're trying to kill me! What IS that?!? I am NOT gonna eat that THING? Are you nuts?" So funny!

[Elaine T]

Margolis wrote:
> "Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I'm just telling you what they published.
>>
>>
>
>
> No you're not, how about you reading it again. The lowest protein ratio in
> that paper you linked to was 52% the highest was almost 67%. Even if the
> lowest number is more prevalent it is still very good.
>
> the fact remains that artemia are very good fish food. Not perfect, but
> nothing is. How about this article:
>
> http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/article_artemia_torula.html
>
> they found problems with sea horses and pipefish fed exclusively artemia,
> but they don't mention any problems with any other fish. And according to
> several references in that article the average protein for adult artemia is
> 60%.
>
> I have raised fish before exclusively on san fransisco bay brand brine
> shrimp and they grew and developed better than fish fed tetra and wardley
> flake food. Nt that I am recommending that, a balanced diet is much better.
> But imho San Fansisco bay brine shrimp is a very important part of fishes
> diet, and could be considered a staple.
>
>
This has been an interesting debate. I certanly won't hesitate to feed
adult brine shrimp occasionally anymore. The nicest thing about them is
that they're FW parasite free.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
winddancir > wrote:
>
>Hmm. Big Problem with live food. Parasites and germs. Ditto for
>collecting your own mosqito larvae. With bettas, too much live
>bloodworm can give them dropsy.

Protozonans and bacteria that can infect fish cannot live
without fish for more than a very short time. So, if
you collect live food from the wild it has to be from
a "clean pond", than is, no fish. That's safe. Of course
cultuding food is evern easier.

I don't understand the problem with live bloodworms;
they're just a midge larvae and that's what they eat
in the wild.

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[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>without fish for more than a very short time. So, if
>you collect live food from the wild it has to be from
>a "clean pond", than is, no fish. That's safe.

....provided the pond is not used as a toilet by gulls or ducks.

>I don't understand the problem with live bloodworms;
>they're just a midge larvae and that's what they eat
>in the wild.

Part of the problem is that bloodworms are allergenic; about 5% of the
population will develop allergies to bloodworms upon repeated contact,
and unfortunately then likely be allergic also to e.g. shrimps. That's
the biggest reason to avoid bloodworms, IMO.

For the fish, the problem is that frozen bloodworms may not have been
handled properly before you get them, so they may have gone bad and
become laden with bacteria/bacterial toxins.
Especially plant eating fish (e.g. mbuna, Tropheus and herbivorous
catfish) seem susceptible to dropsy-through-bloodworms.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Mean_Chlorine > wrote:
>Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:
>
>>without fish for more than a very short time. So, if
>>you collect live food from the wild it has to be from
>>a "clean pond", than is, no fish. That's safe.
>
>...provided the pond is not used as a toilet by gulls or ducks.

What does that have to do with it?

>>I don't understand the problem with live bloodworms;
>>they're just a midge larvae and that's what they eat
>>in the wild.
>
>Part of the problem is that bloodworms are allergenic; about 5% of the
>population will develop allergies to bloodworms upon repeated contact,
>and unfortunately then likely be allergic also to e.g. shrimps. That's
>the biggest reason to avoid bloodworms, IMO.

Ok, but the other 95% of the population?

>For the fish, the problem is that frozen bloodworms may not have been
>handled properly before you get them, so they may have gone bad and
>become laden with bacteria/bacterial toxins.

How is this different from any other frozen food?

>Especially plant eating fish (e.g. mbuna, Tropheus and herbivorous
>catfish) seem susceptible to dropsy-through-bloodworms.

As they would be with any high protein food, but this speaks more to the
fishes diet than anything to do specifically with bloodworms.

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[Mean_Chlorine]

Thusly (Richard Sexton) Spake Unto All:

>>>without fish for more than a very short time. So, if
>>>you collect live food from the wild it has to be from
>>>a "clean pond", than is, no fish. That's safe.
>>
>>...provided the pond is not used as a toilet by gulls or ducks.
>
>What does that have to do with it?

That's how many parasites spread. Many, perhaps most, parasites
attacking fish are really bird parasites - this goes for tapeworms,
hookworms, roundworms, and at least some protozoans. The parasite eggs
leave the bird through the feces, hatch in water, enter various
aquatic inverts, wait for fish to eat them, and then wait for a bird
to eat the fish.
Hence, if seagulls tend to visit your pond, then the daphnia in it are
probably not parasite-free.

>>>I don't understand the problem with live bloodworms;
>>>they're just a midge larvae and that's what they eat
>>>in the wild.
>>
>>Part of the problem is that bloodworms are allergenic; about 5% of the
>>population will develop allergies to bloodworms upon repeated contact,
>>and unfortunately then likely be allergic also to e.g. shrimps. That's
>>the biggest reason to avoid bloodworms, IMO.
>
>Ok, but the other 95% of the population?

They're fine. It's just a bummer if you're in the 5%, as you will not
get allergic just to bloodworms.

>>For the fish, the problem is that frozen bloodworms may not have been
>>handled properly before you get them, so they may have gone bad and
>>become laden with bacteria/bacterial toxins.
>
>How is this different from any other frozen food?

It isn't really, except that this food is frequently grown under
naturally bacteria rich conditions (e.g. in dams fertilized with
manure).

>>Especially plant eating fish (e.g. mbuna, Tropheus and herbivorous
>>catfish) seem susceptible to dropsy-through-bloodworms.
>
>As they would be with any high protein food, but this speaks more to the
>fishes diet than anything to do specifically with bloodworms.

Yeah, but FWIW, I've under 30 years of aquaristics never had dropsy
_except_ when I've fed with bloodworms. Anecdotal, but good enough for
me.

I still feed bloodworms on occasion, as it's a good food for
wild-caught fish which are otherwise hard to get to eat, but when I
have a choice I avoid it.
It's not like it's an irreplacable food.

[winddancir]

Richard, ducks and seagulls are water bird and eat fish (some ducks just eat plants). Wild fish have diseases that may pass onto our fish. Waterbirds land in the water, eat the fish. The diseases and germs get on their bodies and pass through their digestive tracts. Therefore, the poo can cause "clean ponds" to become contaminated.
I think more than 5% are allergic to bloodworms. I also think it has something to do with whether you use dried or frozen. The dried ones have more dust that can get up your nose and cause a reaction. I use frozen, and use a toothpick to touch them, not my hands. I have used dried in the past, and it can be pretty dusty, especially if you are crumbling it for fry.

How is it different from other frozen food? Not a clue.

To help fight any problems with dropsy, I feed freeze dried daphnia every other feeding. I only feed my fish 2 a day, daphnia in the morning, frozen bloodworms and brineshrimp at night.

I hope this helps!

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
winddancir > wrote:
>
>Richard, ducks and seagulls are water bird and eat fish (some ducks just
>eat plants). Wild fish have diseases that may pass onto our fish.
>Waterbirds land in the water, eat the fish. The diseases and germs get
>on their bodies and pass through their digestive tracts. Therefore, the
>poo can cause "clean ponds" to become contaminated.

Yikes. In theory maybe. But, with no fish any pathogen will die quickly
but say in the remote chance you managed ti get a few when you colledted some
daphnia. Now when you scoop dapnia out with a net and put them into
yout collectig bucket all that water goes back into the pond, but
say some bugs manage to stay stuck to the daphina (since they can't
actuall parasitize them they have tocatch a ride instead) now you
take them home. Now you dump them into clean fishless water and
say you don't wait a day and scoop some daphnia out with a net now
there is a nonzero chance you may still have a big on a daphnia.

But. The odds are *really* against this. I wouldn't worry.

You'll probbaly have a wild thread alage proble, before you
pickup a fish lice. I've never seen any bug come in from the
wild.

>I think more than 5% are allergic to bloodworms. I also think it has
>something to do with whether you use dried or frozen. The dried ones
>have more dust that can get up your nose and cause a reaction. I use
>frozen, and use a toothpick to touch them, not my hands. I have used
>dried in the past, and it can be pretty dusty, especially if you are
>crumbling it for fry.

I'm not fussy on dried foods anyway; they're only good for two months
and siolage/mould, lack of vitamin potency is too much of a pain
to deal with, so I stick tofrozen and live.

>How is it different from other frozen food? Not a clue.

Wel, it isnt.

>To help fight any problems with dropsy, I feed freeze dried daphnia
>every other feeding. I only feed my fish 2 a day, daphnia in the
>morning, frozen bloodworms and brineshrimp at night.

Dropsy is't a disease it's a symptom. Bloodworms are too rich of a diet
to be fed all the time to some fish and they will suffer intestinal
trouble which can lead to dropsy symptoms.

Great for conditioning fish or as a treat though. Many fish do well
on a diet of nothing but bloodworms though, like most killies. They're
the staple in many killfans tanks that frozen adult brine shrimp are
for other folks.

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