Big crane kills all my fish! [Archive]

Steve J. Noll

March 14th 05, 05:54 AM

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:27:35 -0500, wrote:

> Second time now , i give up! Are you allowed to shoot cranes in NJ ?
> After first time i put a 3ft. section of 4in pvc pipe in pond , some
>one told me that will let fish escape killer crane! It don't work! I saw
>that giant bird eating my fish , but it was too late to save Huhey ,
>Dewy , louy , & spot! R.I.P. !
> BILL

A Scarecrow worked for me. Installed one after I lost a Koi.

http://www.kissingfrogs.tv/scarecrow.html

Steve J. Noll | Ventura California (USDA Zone 10)
| The Glass Block Koi Pond/Fountain:
| http://www.kissingfrogs.tv

Reel McKoi

March 14th 05, 05:57 AM

> wrote in message
...
> Second time now , i give up! Are you allowed to shoot cranes in NJ ?

$ No! They're protected by law. You cannot kill them. You can net your
ponds as we did - or someone else here will tell you what worked for them.
Cranes weren't our problem, the herons, king fishers, bullfrogs, mud turtles
and large water snakes were. We lost hundreds of dollars worth of fish
before resorting to those fine black bird nets.

> After first time i put a 3ft. section of 4in pvc pipe in pond , some
> one told me that will let fish escape killer crane!

$ That's an old wives tale. I also had places for them to hide. The bird
will wait patiently for them to leave their hideout, then just swoop them
up! Birds are a lot smarter than fish.

It don't work! I saw
> that giant bird eating my fish , but it was too late to save Huhey ,
> Dewy , louy , & spot! R.I.P. !
> BILL

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
"To persevere in one's duty and
be silent, is the best answer to calumny."
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

kathy

March 14th 05, 05:25 PM

No, you can't kill migratory birds, huge fine (sometimes
$5000, possible jail time) - takes away from pond dollars
and pond time.
Was your bird a heron, steel blue in color, buff colored
neck, some black on head, if old enough will have a black
crest, long beak.
Doesn't matter really as it is a fish eater all the same.

You can
- use an electric shock pet fence
- motion activated sprinkler
- net your pond
-surround your pond with fishing line, especially in the
area where the bird lands

ALL these will work. It just depends on your particular pond, how it is
situated, how your yard is set up and your particular heron. You may
have to experiment. Good luck and let us know how it goes. We like to
hear success stories!

kathy :-)

[email protected]

March 15th 05, 11:21 PM

You can shoot and kill cranes and other migatory birds such as herons
if they are destroying property. Here's how:

Call USDA Wildlife Services at 303-236-8171 and explain to them that
you are filing a migatory bird depredation permit application and need
form 37. Explain to them that a crane (or whatever bird) is destroying
your property and you would like to destroy it.

Once you get form 37 go to http://forms.fws.gov/3-200-13.pdf , fill it
out and send it in. Once you get your permit you'll be able to destroy
the bird legally.

Sam

kathy

March 16th 05, 12:25 AM

Hi Sam,
I always thought this was available only to persons who
suffer significant economic loss, like fish farmers.

That said, I went and read the permit and it does say you
have to really have tried nonlethal means and you have to
continue nonlethal means.

So then I called the number and left a message (past working
hours in Denver) and asked specifically about backyard ponds
and koi keeping.
Also wondering what kind of lethal means would be available to
your average suburban pond owner?

Should be interesting what I hear back!

kathy :-)

[email protected]

March 16th 05, 12:48 AM

Hi Kathy,

Property is property. A $5.00 koi to you might be a $1,000 koi
to someone else. Many wildlife laws have provisions to kill animals if
they are destroying private property. For instance I routinely use the
provision in the hunting code to allow me to trap animals that are
causing damage in my wildlife reserve. Usually the only provision is
that you cannot keep the animal's body. For instance I can't catch mink
out of season and make a coat out of them. They are either turned over
to the game commission or thrown out.

While I try to keep animals alive and use deterrents whenever
possible if they are destroying things there comes a point where they
must be destroyed.

Sam

kathy wrote:
> Hi Sam,
> I always thought this was available only to persons who
> suffer significant economic loss, like fish farmers.
>
> That said, I went and read the permit and it does say you
> have to really have tried nonlethal means and you have to
> continue nonlethal means.
>
> So then I called the number and left a message (past working
> hours in Denver) and asked specifically about backyard ponds
> and koi keeping.
> Also wondering what kind of lethal means would be available to
> your average suburban pond owner?
>
> Should be interesting what I hear back!
>
> kathy :-)

kathy

March 16th 05, 01:01 AM

Hi Sam,

A $1,000 koi I can understand! Though if I was putting
a $1,000 koi outside I'd design something pretty dang
safe before ever letting a heron draw a bead on it. But
most of us had no idea herons even existed until we
put in our ponds.

And I have no problem with animals that you describe.
I'm just really interested in what they'll say about my
feeder fish and $5.99 koi in my backyard.

I had a heron pay me a visit last week. Huge
bird. The watergardening labradors alerted me to his
visit and when I opened the slider he flew away. What
a treat! He hasn't come back that I know of as the fish
seem to be up on the surface lazing around every
afternoon.

kathy :-)

Benign Vanilla

March 16th 05, 06:07 PM

"kathy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Sam,
>
> A $1,000 koi I can understand! Though if I was putting
> a $1,000 koi outside I'd design something pretty dang
> safe before ever letting a heron draw a bead on it. But
> most of us had no idea herons even existed until we
> put in our ponds.
>
> And I have no problem with animals that you describe.
> I'm just really interested in what they'll say about my
> feeder fish and $5.99 koi in my backyard.
>
> I had a heron pay me a visit last week. Huge
> bird. The watergardening labradors alerted me to his
> visit and when I opened the slider he flew away. What
> a treat! He hasn't come back that I know of as the fish
> seem to be up on the surface lazing around every
> afternoon.

Is it just me or does anyone else find this thread disturbing? We put in
ponds, put in fish and create perfect feeding grounds for local inhabitants,
and then we want to kill the inhabitants? This reminds me of the "bear
problem" in MD. People are bulldozing forests in Western MD, building houses
and then complaining about the bears eating their garbage and terrorizing
their peaceful forest side burbs. It's a people problem, not a bear problem.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our
eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516.
It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click!

small fish

March 16th 05, 06:26 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Hi Sam,
> >
> > A $1,000 koi I can understand! Though if I was putting
> > a $1,000 koi outside I'd design something pretty dang
> > safe before ever letting a heron draw a bead on it. But
> > most of us had no idea herons even existed until we
> > put in our ponds.
> >
> > And I have no problem with animals that you describe.
> > I'm just really interested in what they'll say about my
> > feeder fish and $5.99 koi in my backyard.
> >
> > I had a heron pay me a visit last week. Huge
> > bird. The watergardening labradors alerted me to his
> > visit and when I opened the slider he flew away. What
> > a treat! He hasn't come back that I know of as the fish
> > seem to be up on the surface lazing around every
> > afternoon.
>
> Is it just me or does anyone else find this thread disturbing? We put in
> ponds, put in fish and create perfect feeding grounds for local
inhabitants,
> and then we want to kill the inhabitants? This reminds me of the "bear
> problem" in MD. People are bulldozing forests in Western MD, building
houses
> and then complaining about the bears eating their garbage and terrorizing
> their peaceful forest side burbs. It's a people problem, not a bear
problem.

Yes, I find it disturbing, as well. I like to encourage all forms of
wildlife, although I'm thankful my dog keeps the raccoons from coming in the
cat door. I have yet to put in the big water garden, and when I do, I'll
probably not put in anything the waterbirds from the lake would view as
food, so they can drop by and I won't feel torn to protect the fishies.

Gail Futoran

March 16th 05, 06:37 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> A $1,000 koi I can understand! Though if I was putting
>> a $1,000 koi outside I'd design something pretty dang
>> safe before ever letting a heron draw a bead on it. But
>> most of us had no idea herons even existed until we
>> put in our ponds.
>>
>> And I have no problem with animals that you describe.
>> I'm just really interested in what they'll say about my
>> feeder fish and $5.99 koi in my backyard.
>>
>> I had a heron pay me a visit last week. Huge
>> bird. The watergardening labradors alerted me to his
>> visit and when I opened the slider he flew away. What
>> a treat! He hasn't come back that I know of as the fish
>> seem to be up on the surface lazing around every
>> afternoon.
>
> Is it just me or does anyone else find this thread disturbing?

More the attitude: If it bothers us, we can/shoud kill it. :(
Yes, I know there are times when that is necessary, but
I'm guessing "convenience" or "protect my perfect
surburban lawn" is the reason a heckuva lot more
often than protect the crops that feed my family.

We put in
> ponds, put in fish and create perfect feeding grounds for local
> inhabitants,
> and then we want to kill the inhabitants?

I would kill to get a crane or heron stop by! Of course,
I only have minnows and goldfish (and frogs and toads)
in my ponds, and they have places to hide (PVC pipe,
plastic crates, vegetation), so even if my entire stock
got eaten, it wouldn't be a tragedy.

This reminds me of the "bear
> problem" in MD. People are bulldozing forests in Western MD, building
> houses
> and then complaining about the bears eating their garbage and terrorizing
> their peaceful forest side burbs. It's a people problem, not a bear
> problem.

Yep.

> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> http://www.iheartmypond.com
> Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our
> eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516.
> It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click!

Gail

small fish

March 16th 05, 06:57 PM

"Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
...
> "Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "kathy" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> >> Hi Sam,
> >>
> >> A $1,000 koi I can understand! Though if I was putting
> >> a $1,000 koi outside I'd design something pretty dang
> >> safe before ever letting a heron draw a bead on it. But
> >> most of us had no idea herons even existed until we
> >> put in our ponds.
> >>
> >> And I have no problem with animals that you describe.
> >> I'm just really interested in what they'll say about my
> >> feeder fish and $5.99 koi in my backyard.
> >>
> >> I had a heron pay me a visit last week. Huge
> >> bird. The watergardening labradors alerted me to his
> >> visit and when I opened the slider he flew away. What
> >> a treat! He hasn't come back that I know of as the fish
> >> seem to be up on the surface lazing around every
> >> afternoon.
> >
> > Is it just me or does anyone else find this thread disturbing?
>
> More the attitude: If it bothers us, we can/shoud kill it. :(
> Yes, I know there are times when that is necessary, but
> I'm guessing "convenience" or "protect my perfect
> surburban lawn" is the reason a heckuva lot more
> often than protect the crops that feed my family.
>
> We put in
> > ponds, put in fish and create perfect feeding grounds for local
> > inhabitants,
> > and then we want to kill the inhabitants?
>
> I would kill to get a crane or heron stop by! Of course,
> I only have minnows and goldfish (and frogs and toads)
> in my ponds, and they have places to hide (PVC pipe,
> plastic crates, vegetation), so even if my entire stock
> got eaten, it wouldn't be a tragedy.

I would feel bad, even for goldfish since they react to human presence,
should they become a snack. Do you think your fish are protected enough with
the hiding places you've provided?

Reel McKoi

March 16th 05, 07:04 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
> Is it just me or does anyone else find this thread disturbing? We put in
> ponds, put in fish and create perfect feeding grounds for local
inhabitants,
> and then we want to kill the inhabitants? This reminds me of the "bear
> problem" in MD. People are bulldozing forests in Western MD, building
houses
> and then complaining about the bears eating their garbage and terrorizing
> their peaceful forest side burbs. It's a people problem, not a bear
problem.
=================
Yes, it's disturbing. We had similar problems with farmers and new home
owners here in some rural areas. People will buy a new home (in
subdivisions) adjoining a farm, knowing it's a farm and will have animal
aromas - then complain to the County the "stench" is sickening them, there
are flies, the tractor wakes them at 5 AM, they have no quality if
life..... This just seems to be human nature.

Rather than harm the wildlife we netted the ponds and breeding pools. There
are 3 *OPEN* pools of goldfish culls and extra plants for the frogs, newts
and other critters native to our area.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
"To persevere in one's duty and
be silent, is the best answer to calumny."
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

kathy

March 16th 05, 07:10 PM

Always been a problem and seems to be getting worse, the clash of
wildlife and human population needs.

We lived in and amongst the bears when we lived in Northern Canada.
They'd walk down the main street and we'd take the alley way. Seemed to
be the prudent thing to do.

We had a dachshund who thought she was hot stuff, take no prisoners,
let me at that mailman, I'll rip him to shreds, type of dog.

Her nest was right beside the porch door. When the bears came up on the
porch to partake of the garbage smorgasbord she never uttered a single
bark, growl or woof. Her reputation as a Tough Dog took a hit after
that...

kathy :-)

small fish

March 16th 05, 07:29 PM

"kathy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Always been a problem and seems to be getting worse, the clash of
> wildlife and human population needs.
>
> We lived in and amongst the bears when we lived in Northern Canada.
> They'd walk down the main street and we'd take the alley way. Seemed to
> be the prudent thing to do.
>
> We had a dachshund who thought she was hot stuff, take no prisoners,
> let me at that mailman, I'll rip him to shreds, type of dog.
>
> Her nest was right beside the porch door. When the bears came up on the
> porch to partake of the garbage smorgasbord she never uttered a single
> bark, growl or woof. Her reputation as a Tough Dog took a hit after
> that...

I might take a different view if there were bears about, so thankfully, a
friendly dog keeps most of the wildlife out of the house. Something does
root around in the yard at night for grubs and I suspect it's a possum.

"The wise dachshund considers the advantage of concealment."
-
Sun Shih Tzu

kathy

March 16th 05, 08:42 PM

small fish wrote "The wise dachshund considers the advantage of
concealment."

chortle! Yes, she was all that!

kathy

~Roy~

March 16th 05, 11:21 PM

I don't think there is really anything to worry about with John Q
Public getting his Form 37 approved. Its not that easy........Back
when I was n the USAF, we had an Owl take up residence in the
suspended insulation in one of our aircrafts shelters. The opwl was
making one heck of a mess, and keeping an aircraft in that shelter
proved to be problematic. Bird droppings and the mess they make caused
lots of problems on a 17.6 million dollar fighter jet. Even being a
government agency, they submitted a form to get the permission to
eliminate this owl......2 1/2 months later they get their form
returned DISSAPROVED. They had failed to take other steps prior to
submitting the form, and merely taking the life of the owl on a one
time deal was not sufficient for getting approval. After months and
months they finally waited until the owl had left for its evening
hunt, and closed up all openings in the shelter........erradicated the
nest it made in the ceiling area, and kept the building closed for a
while...Owl moved on and found a new nest site. It was done during the
time of year when the owl did not have young, and was merely using the
shelter / hanger as a base of operations.

And to all those who wish a crane or heron would stop by their pond,
send me your address and I'll see what I can work out for you in
getting your wish come true...So far so good with my pond, as its been
some time since I have had a problem with herons. Lots of outside
activity makes them nervous. Moving things around from time to time
also helps, as they do not particularly like a setting that things are
constantly changing in. I do not net, use sprinklers or fishing line.
I do have three gators that I move around periodically and IMHO they
do seem to work. We have lots of herons in this area all year round.
Its been a long long time since I lost any fish to a bird or even seen
a heron around my ponds.

On 15 Mar 2005 15:21:33 -0800, wrote:

>===<>You can shoot and kill cranes and other migatory birds such as herons
>===<>if they are destroying property. Here's how:
>===<>
>===<>Call USDA Wildlife Services at 303-236-8171 and explain to them that
>===<>you are filing a migatory bird depredation permit application and need
>===<>form 37. Explain to them that a crane (or whatever bird) is destroying
>===<>your property and you would like to destroy it.
>===<>
>===<>Once you get form 37 go to http://forms.fws.gov/3-200-13.pdf , fill it
>===<>out and send it in. Once you get your permit you'll be able to destroy
>===<>the bird legally.
>===<>
>===<>Sam

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

Bill Stock

March 17th 05, 12:42 AM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> A $1,000 koi I can understand! Though if I was putting
>> a $1,000 koi outside I'd design something pretty dang
>> safe before ever letting a heron draw a bead on it. But
>> most of us had no idea herons even existed until we
>> put in our ponds.
>>
>> And I have no problem with animals that you describe.
>> I'm just really interested in what they'll say about my
>> feeder fish and $5.99 koi in my backyard.
>>
>> I had a heron pay me a visit last week. Huge
>> bird. The watergardening labradors alerted me to his
>> visit and when I opened the slider he flew away. What
>> a treat! He hasn't come back that I know of as the fish
>> seem to be up on the surface lazing around every
>> afternoon.
>
> Is it just me or does anyone else find this thread disturbing? We put in
> ponds, put in fish and create perfect feeding grounds for local
> inhabitants,
> and then we want to kill the inhabitants? This reminds me of the "bear
> problem" in MD. People are bulldozing forests in Western MD, building
> houses
> and then complaining about the bears eating their garbage and terrorizing
> their peaceful forest side burbs. It's a people problem, not a bear
> problem.

Yep, what's with the predilection for shooting/killing everything? It's a
sad commentary on society.

> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> http://www.iheartmypond.com
> Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our
> eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516.
> It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click!
>
>

kathy

March 17th 05, 12:56 AM

No call back today. But noticed the head of the
Fish and Wildlife resigned today so maybe everyone
is too busy. Also had someone tie me up on the
phone for an hour.

kathy :-)

[email protected]

March 17th 05, 04:39 AM

I was only kidding about shooting the heron that killed all my fish ! He
was out in the field behind the pond today ,but i didn't have my air
rifle loaded!

I just decided to give up on the fish pond & fill it in. It was too
much work any way!
I have lots of other hobby's !

Good Bye , BILL

Crashj

March 17th 05, 01:06 PM

On or about Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:39:49 -0500,
wrote something like:

>I was only kidding about shooting the heron that killed all my fish ! He
>was out in the field behind the pond today ,but i didn't have my air
>rifle loaded!
>
> I just decided to give up on the fish pond & fill it in. It was too
>much work any way!
> I have lots of other hobby's !
>
> Good Bye , BILL

Maybe you could take up studying English grammar and speeling.
--
Crashj

Gail Futoran

March 17th 05, 10:34 PM

"small fish" > wrote in message
news:1110999587.bb418436744f5ed1975ee3bc36a94d55@t eranews...
>
> "Gail Futoran" > wrote

[snip]
>> I would kill to get a crane or heron stop by! Of course,
>> I only have minnows and goldfish (and frogs and toads)
>> in my ponds, and they have places to hide (PVC pipe,
>> plastic crates, vegetation), so even if my entire stock
>> got eaten, it wouldn't be a tragedy.
>
> I would feel bad, even for goldfish since they react to human presence,
> should they become a snack. Do you think your fish are protected enough
> with
> the hiding places you've provided?

Yeah, I do. So far I haven't lost any goldfish, but
it's hard to tell about the minnows. My stock remains
fairly constant, even with babies, but who knows what
is culling them? Probably snakes, or even backyard
birds. Or old age. I don't think minnows live all
that long.

Gail

jedi

March 18th 05, 02:41 AM

I'm with you. I completely understand the frustration felt when nature
isn't interested in my own grand design but I would much rather have the joy
of seeing a kingfisher than to have 'my territory' untouched. In fact, I
would feel that I had failed if what I added to my small spot of green did
not benefit wildlife. The regret I felt of watching that Kingfisher catch my
favorite comet is a small price to pay for knowing that I may have helped
that bird survive. One of our most thrilling days was when a beautiful
white heron landed in the tree above the pond and just hung out for some
time. I do build my pond with the sides straight down to discourage the
raccoons from trashing my pond but then I also give them cat food.

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kathy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Hi Sam,
> >
> > A $1,000 koi I can understand! Though if I was putting
> > a $1,000 koi outside I'd design something pretty dang
> > safe before ever letting a heron draw a bead on it. But
> > most of us had no idea herons even existed until we
> > put in our ponds.
> >
> > And I have no problem with animals that you describe.
> > I'm just really interested in what they'll say about my
> > feeder fish and $5.99 koi in my backyard.
> >
> > I had a heron pay me a visit last week. Huge
> > bird. The watergardening labradors alerted me to his
> > visit and when I opened the slider he flew away. What
> > a treat! He hasn't come back that I know of as the fish
> > seem to be up on the surface lazing around every
> > afternoon.
>
> Is it just me or does anyone else find this thread disturbing? We put in
> ponds, put in fish and create perfect feeding grounds for local
inhabitants,
> and then we want to kill the inhabitants? This reminds me of the "bear
> problem" in MD. People are bulldozing forests in Western MD, building
houses
> and then complaining about the bears eating their garbage and terrorizing
> their peaceful forest side burbs. It's a people problem, not a bear
problem.
>
>
> --
> BV
> Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
> http://www.iheartmypond.com
> Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our
> eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516.
> It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click!
>
>

jedi

March 18th 05, 02:43 AM

small fish

March 18th 05, 03:57 AM

"Gail Futoran" > wrote in message
...
> "small fish" > wrote in message
> news:1110999587.bb418436744f5ed1975ee3bc36a94d55@t eranews...
> >
> > "Gail Futoran" > wrote
>
> [snip]
> >> I would kill to get a crane or heron stop by! Of course,
> >> I only have minnows and goldfish (and frogs and toads)
> >> in my ponds, and they have places to hide (PVC pipe,
> >> plastic crates, vegetation), so even if my entire stock
> >> got eaten, it wouldn't be a tragedy.
> >
> > I would feel bad, even for goldfish since they react to human
presence,
> > should they become a snack. Do you think your fish are protected enough
> > with
> > the hiding places you've provided?
>
> Yeah, I do. So far I haven't lost any goldfish, but
> it's hard to tell about the minnows. My stock remains
> fairly constant, even with babies, but who knows what
> is culling them? Probably snakes, or even backyard
> birds. Or old age. I don't think minnows live all
> that long.

I have such situational ethics regarding prey and predators in nature. I
have no problem catching grasshoppers to feed a garden spider, but I'd hate
to think I'm just providing a live captive soup bowl for waterbirds and
raccoons without giving the fish some chance to escape.
The big pond I have planned will be up to 4' deep and have many rock
features, as well as a doggie guardian, so perhaps whatever fish I put in
will have some kind of chance to avoid being food.