Second casualty... :(

[[email protected]]

Overnight I lost a female guppie... Don't know what happened...

Last night it looked fine, and this morning it's dead...

I Still have four neons, two gouramis, two platties and a male guppie.

One question about the guppies and the platties.

They seem to like swiming at the top of the tank, they rarely come
down. IS this normal behaviour or there is something else in the tank?

[Ozdude]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Overnight I lost a female guppie... Don't know what happened...
>
> Last night it looked fine, and this morning it's dead...
>
> I Still have four neons, two gouramis, two platties and a male guppie.
>
> One question about the guppies and the platties.
>
> They seem to like swiming at the top of the tank, they rarely come
> down. IS this normal behaviour or there is something else in the tank?

How are your oxygen levels? I just discovered tonight that Platys (well
Swords in my case) come from richly oxgenated, alkaline water of lower
temperatures.

My single female Sword sometimes hangs near the surface (when the CO2
reactor goes off after a recharge or if she's stressed), but generally is
all over the tank. I can tell when she's happy because she pecks algae off
the plants and flutters around the tank taunting the Honey Gourami.

If the Honey gets the upper hand, she heads for the surface and hangs there
in a corner for a minute, sometimes gulping something (air?) until he comes
over then she dives down to the bottom and hides amongst the Blue Stricta
forrest for an hour or so until he loses interest.

They feed from the surface generally (the up turned mouth is an indicator)
but mine will also go down to lower levels, even the substrate and get worms
and pellets if she's hungry enough.

What are the remaining fish doing? Anything? Rapid gill movement? Clammped
Fins? Purple Gills? etc. Do you know what your Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate
levels are?

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Sue]

How did you cycle this tank?

[[email protected]]

I've had it running for more than a week with no fish.
Didn't replace the water at all. Last friday I tested the water and
there was no anmonia, nitrites, just a high ph and hardness.
Would it be wise to replace the water?

I have a over pwered filter for my 33gal tank, aquaclear (70) old 300.
I have fake plants all over the place and I see them moving so the
water is not stll.

I imagine the oxygen levels should be okay, how does one test for that?

As for the other fish they seem okay, the male guppie seems to like to
race near the surface.

Yesterday I did notice something with the female, don't know if it is
the cause of her death, but I didn't pay attention to it.
She had a little string hanging on her lower back and had it all day
hanging.
I thought that was just poop, could it have been something else?

[[email protected]]

Did you put in 8 fish all at once in a fresh tank? I'd be worried about
that, if you did.

[[email protected]]

Why?
The tank has been running for a week so it shouldn't be overcharged.
And they are small fish.
My tank is a 33gal tank.
They seem to do fine, I just don't know what happened to the female.

[[email protected]]

Well, I fall in the paranoid camp here. You may be surprised how much
waste a small fish manages to produce. In any case, if your tank isn't
cycled, you'll get ammonia/nitrite spikes. Since bacteria populations
live on the verge of starvation, you can trigger a "mini-cycle", even
in an established tank, by adding a lot of fish. At least this is my
understanding.

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Why?
> The tank has been running for a week so it shouldn't be overcharged.
> And they are small fish.
> My tank is a 33gal tank.
> They seem to do fine, I just don't know what happened to the female.
>
If I understand you correctly, you set your new tank, ran it for a week,
and then added fish. Nothing happens to start the nitrogen cycle until
you add the fish. Once you put the fish in, they start to excrete
ammonia and the "cycle" begins.

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html explains the cycle in great
detail and tells you how to care for your first cycling tank. The short
version is that your tank has to develop the bacteria that break down
fish waste and it takes about 6-8 weeks. Unfortunately, until then,
your fish will be stressed from waste products in the water and some may
die.

It is a VERY good idea to add an airstone during the cycle even if there
is good water movement. Ammonia and nitrites irritate gill tissue and
your fish will have trouble getting enough oxygen.

There's a wealth of information in the FAQs that should help you with
all aspects of keeping a healthy tank. Good luck!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Well, I fall in the paranoid camp here. You may be surprised how much
> waste a small fish manages to produce. In any case, if your tank isn't
> cycled, you'll get ammonia/nitrite spikes. Since bacteria populations
> live on the verge of starvation, you can trigger a "mini-cycle", even
> in an established tank, by adding a lot of fish. At least this is my
> understanding.
>
I'm with you on this John.

Just cycling a 50g tank. It sat for 2 weeks with nothing but water, rocks
and plants. Then added 3 fish plus some medium from an existing established
filter and some substrate from one of the other tanks. Tested water daily
and did 10% water changes once the fish were in there. After a week got no
nitrites so added just another 3 fish....this will go on until the tank is
fully stocked - each time making sure that the bacteria has coped with the
load I have added before going for more fish.

On the first tanks (before I had the option of adding established medium) -
the fish also went in very slowly - 3 at a time every two weeks irrespective
of the size of the fish.

Right now, none of the above is going to help the current situation. In
terms of improving the Oxygen level I would go for some live plants rather
than plastic. You could also get an aerator. Test the water daily. You would
not expect to get any/significant readings for Ammonia/Nitrites until you
added the fish. The most likely thing happening will be that the tank is
cycling - try doing daily water changes. Start with around 30% and then
follow up with 10% for the next 6 days. Do not feed the fish for a day or
two and then start up gradually (just one feed a day). Do not add any more
fish or stop the water change routine until the only reading you get is for
nitrates.

[Richard Sexton]

In article om>,
> wrote:
>Well, I fall in the paranoid camp here. You may be surprised how much
>waste a small fish manages to produce.

No kidding. You might be surprised how much wast even one lousy
small snail produces.

--
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[Richard Sexton]

>Just cycling a 50g tank. It sat for 2 weeks with nothing but water, rocks
>and plants. Then added 3 fish plus some medium from an existing established
>filter and some substrate from one of the other tanks.

Why'd you do it that way? If Iset up a new tank I siphon
some mulm into ot or squeeze out a sponge filter from a
healthy tank. Presto chango, millions of nitrifying bacteria.

--
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633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[[email protected]]

It is probably not the oxygen level. He doesn't have that many fish.
If I am not wrong his tank is not cycled. I think he was the one who
posted about starting an aquarium last week I think.

My fish are constantly foraging for food. Other than feeding time,
they are all over.

Yep, dorsal fins that are collapsed or folded down indicates that your
fish are in distress. Look out of fish darting up to the surface for a
quick snatch of air then back down again. If they do that I will bet
good money that you have serious water quality issues.

[[email protected]]

If your tank has not completed its cycling. Ammonia can build up
really fast. From everything I have read so far, that is your current
problem. I suggest that you invest in an Ammonia Test Kit and a
Nitrite Test kit.

If people here are right about your tank not being cycled, you will
have to do daily water changes to save your fish. You may have to do
this for the next month or so. I recommend a daily 25% water change
until your tank is cycled. Pain in the ass to do. You may want to
invest in a Python water changing kit. Remember the post I made about
needing about $500 to get things set up right? That was actually a
conservative estimate. Of course, once things are set up, it costs
very little.

One more thing. You don't need to feed your fish more than once a day.
I have done this for months, and my fish are still growing. The more
you feed, the more water changes you need to make.

[Gill Passman]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >Just cycling a 50g tank. It sat for 2 weeks with nothing but water, rocks
> >and plants. Then added 3 fish plus some medium from an existing
established
> >filter and some substrate from one of the other tanks.
>
> Why'd you do it that way? If Iset up a new tank I siphon
> some mulm into ot or squeeze out a sponge filter from a
> healthy tank. Presto chango, millions of nitrifying bacteria.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Overly cautious I guess.....I did that on one tank and lost 2 fish that we'd
had for 6 months in another tank....moved over a pump with filter medium and
no more losses.

[Richard Sexton]

>had for 6 months in another tank....moved over a pump with filter medium and
>no more losses.

Understood, but diseases are very specific to species or groups on
animals. That's why it's a big deal when flu, for example jumps the
poulty barrier and infects humans. But without any host at all
the pathogens die. That is fish diseases don't live more than a few hours
or days without fish.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[Gill Passman]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> >had for 6 months in another tank....moved over a pump with filter medium
and
> >no more losses.
>
> Understood, but diseases are very specific to species or groups on
> animals. That's why it's a big deal when flu, for example jumps the
> poulty barrier and infects humans. But without any host at all
> the pathogens die. That is fish diseases don't live more than a few hours
> or days without fish.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Get what you are saying here.....but in this case sadly it was nitrites
through the tank not being cycled - confirmed by water testing.

Thx

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the reply.

I just got the tank going.
I tested it last friday for amonia and nitrites and they were zero.
That was before putting fish. I might test it again.

The other fish seem fine, the male guppy and the two platties like to
swin on the surface, I don't see them grasping for air.

I am doing water replacement anyway, probably less than 25% but I am
doing... and everytime it's a fight with the wife that keeps telling me
that I don't have to do it, that I am distressing the fish, that they
are fine, and that I am just making the water worse... :)

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
Gill Passman <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
>> >had for 6 months in another tank....moved over a pump with filter medium
>and
>> >no more losses.
>>
>> Understood, but diseases are very specific to species or groups on
>> animals. That's why it's a big deal when flu, for example jumps the
>> poulty barrier and infects humans. But without any host at all
>> the pathogens die. That is fish diseases don't live more than a few hours
>> or days without fish.
>>
>> --
>> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
>> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
>> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
>> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
>
>Get what you are saying here.....but in this case sadly it was nitrites
>through the tank not being cycled - confirmed by water testing.

You won't be adding much nitrite by using a bit of mump from
an old tank. And there would be some beneficial bacteria there;
more than in a new freshlysetup tank.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

[steve]

wrote:
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> I just got the tank going.
> I tested it last friday for amonia and nitrites and they were zero.
> That was before putting fish. I might test it again.
>
> The other fish seem fine, the male guppy and the two platties like to
> swin on the surface, I don't see them grasping for air.
>
> I am doing water replacement anyway, probably less than 25% but I am
> doing... and everytime it's a fight with the wife that keeps telling
me
> that I don't have to do it, that I am distressing the fish, that they
> are fine, and that I am just making the water worse... :)


Quit beating around the bush... :) Check the ammonia. It will be
10ppm or greater. Show the test sample to your wife. Tell her ammonia
is toxic to fish when it's measureable at all, like 1ppm. Tell her the
rest of the fish will die soon, or they'll be stunted tortured little
guys for the rest of their days, which will be shortened by at least
half.

steve

PS When you finally come up clean on ammonia, then do a nitrite test.
Show your wife the test vile that is purple color. Tell her that
nitrites will kill fish...

[Gill Passman]

"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Gill Passman <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >"Richard Sexton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >had for 6 months in another tank....moved over a pump with filter
medium
> >and
> >> >no more losses.
> >>
> >> Understood, but diseases are very specific to species or groups on
> >> animals. That's why it's a big deal when flu, for example jumps the
> >> poulty barrier and infects humans. But without any host at all
> >> the pathogens die. That is fish diseases don't live more than a few
hours
> >> or days without fish.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> >> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> >> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> >> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org
> >
> >Get what you are saying here.....but in this case sadly it was nitrites
> >through the tank not being cycled - confirmed by water testing.
>
> You won't be adding much nitrite by using a bit of mump from
> an old tank. And there would be some beneficial bacteria there;
> more than in a new freshlysetup tank.
>
> --
> Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org

Maybe I'm not putting myself across here very well - sorry - :-( but the
reason I now cycle this way is because I lost fish when I didn't go the
whole hog of the filter medium itself. When the fish that were in the
"seeded" tank died I tested and I found high nitrites leading me to conclude
that the tank was cycling even though I had added bacteria...I don't think I
added the nitrite I just think that I didn't provide the tank with the
ability to cope with what was produced naturally. I then put in a "mature"
internal pump I happened to have hanging around surplus to requirement in an
established tank (full of bacteria) and it sorted within hours - no more
fish deaths. Worked for me.

Now, I err on the cautious. Doesn't mean I won't lose fish through disease
but hopefully I won't lose too many through water quality during cycling. I
guess I'm lucky having this spare pump/filter and this may not be an option
open to all (either first tank or financial reasons) but coz I do have it I
find it easier and safer to set up my tanks this way - BTW this is in
addition to the externals I now use on all but the two smaller tanks so
having a spare gives me some redundancy in case anything fails
elsewhere..... So what I have now is add water, add a mature pump/filter
plus a bit of substrate, add fish - tank fine.....no ammonia or
nitrite....hey but coz I worry I still test the water quality. Because this
is sitting in an established tank that has an established external
filter/pump system there is no impact on the existing tank....And yes, I
guess doing it this way I could run out and add more fish quicker but I'm
happy to wait to play safe....also maybe I didn't need to wait the 2 weeks
before adding fish and mature pump/filter but the last one was a Malawi Tank
so I was "playing caves" first *grin*

Of the 5 tanks the only time I lost fish while the tank was cycling was
trying to be clever and "seed" it....maybe I didn't do it right but I'm
happy with my compromise. BTW we didn't lose before this was on option when
setting up the first couple of tanks but that's coz we added the fish in
3's, waited two weeks and added 3 more to let the bacteria build up....this
all adds up to lots of trips to lfs and fun spread over a number of
months....along with plenty of time to research what I want to put in
there....*grin*

[Gill Passman]

"steve" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
> > Thanks for the reply.
> >
> > I just got the tank going.
> > I tested it last friday for amonia and nitrites and they were zero.
> > That was before putting fish. I might test it again.
> >
> > The other fish seem fine, the male guppy and the two platties like to
> > swin on the surface, I don't see them grasping for air.
> >
> > I am doing water replacement anyway, probably less than 25% but I am
> > doing... and everytime it's a fight with the wife that keeps telling
> me
> > that I don't have to do it, that I am distressing the fish, that they
> > are fine, and that I am just making the water worse... :)
>
>
> Quit beating around the bush... :) Check the ammonia. It will be
> 10ppm or greater. Show the test sample to your wife. Tell her ammonia
> is toxic to fish when it's measureable at all, like 1ppm. Tell her the
> rest of the fish will die soon, or they'll be stunted tortured little
> guys for the rest of their days, which will be shortened by at least
> half.
>
> steve
>
> PS When you finally come up clean on ammonia, then do a nitrite test.
> Show your wife the test vile that is purple color. Tell her that
> nitrites will kill fish...
>
Ok lets add to this....by doing the water changes you are saving the lives
of your fishes...bottom line. Water changes should become part of your
routine of maintainence...it is better for the fish to have the initial
stress of the water change than coping with the toxins within the water. As
time goes on your fish will get used to this routine...mine now seem to
quite enjoy the chance to nibble at us while we do it (IMO of course). If
your LFS is a good one the fish should already know about this routine and
be quite happy with it....BTW I tend not to do a water change on the same
day as adding the fish and never buy any unless I am happy with the water
quality in my tank(s)....

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Ok lets add to this....by doing the water changes you are saving the lives
> of your fishes...bottom line. Water changes should become part of your
> routine of maintainence...it is better for the fish to have the initial
> stress of the water change than coping with the toxins within the water.
> As
> time goes on your fish will get used to this routine...mine now seem to
> quite enjoy the chance to nibble at us while we do it (IMO of course). If
> your LFS is a good one the fish should already know about this routine and
> be quite happy with it....BTW I tend not to do a water change on the same
> day as adding the fish and never buy any unless I am happy with the water
> quality in my tank(s)....

Agreed. On the fish enjoying it; My Black Phantom Tetras go for the stuff
being sucked up that they can see in the gravel vac.

It's funny how brash they've gotten as they have settled in. Quite a gang of
little charcacters.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith