Newbie and frustrated [Archive] - FishKeepingBanter.com

ebruvold

March 16th 05, 05:28 AM

OK....

Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3
foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed
by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus
"Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design
Aquaclear"

Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning,
etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than
we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into
the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous
occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape.

With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals.
Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more
pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly
considering adding them.

HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae
problem that is driving me to frustration.

Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear"
bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is
easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks.

But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a
difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should
I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something
different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out
there - any objective reviews?)

George

March 16th 05, 06:31 AM

"ebruvold" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> OK....
>
> Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3
> foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed
> by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus
> "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design
> Aquaclear"
>
> Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning,
> etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than
> we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into
> the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous
> occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape.
>
> With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals.
> Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more
> pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly
> considering adding them.
>
> HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae
> problem that is driving me to frustration.
>
> Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear"
> bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is
> easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks.
>
> But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a
> difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should
> I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something
> different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out
> there - any objective reviews?)

A lot of us here will tell you that you should avoid using algacides, if at all
possible because they can damage your aquatic plants, and the resulting dead
algae will settle to the bottome, decompose, and add evern more nutrients to the
water. You should be adding a product like aquazyme, which provides beneficial
bacteria to your pond to help reduce the nutrient load. Adding more shade to
the pond also helps. You can accomplish this with more water lillies, which
will also use up those nutrients. You are having a problem with too high a
nutrient load in your pond. You need an effective filtration system, either
mechanical that you can clean, or biological (much preferred). I recommend that
you read the information provided at this web site. It contains very valuable
information, and should help you solve your problem:

http://www.naturalsolutionsetc.com/garden-pond-algae-control.htm

The keyword with garden ponds - patience. Don't rush things. Nature is on her
own schedule. The key is to learn what that schedule is and how to facilitate
it in a way that is beneficial to the flora and fauna of your pond. Whatever
you do, don't clean or do partial water changes with straight tap water, and
don't change all the water at one time. UV filtration (very expensive) will
help with pea soup algae, but not with string algae, and may actually make the
string algae problem worse. I also have a big problem with nuking pond water to
solve what is essentially a biochemical imbalance in an ecosystem.

Sean Dinh

March 16th 05, 07:23 AM

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Is there a filter for that pond? Which type is it?
<A HREF="http://la.znet.com/~seannydinh/">http://la.znet.com/~seannydinh/</A>
My lovely green water went away a week after installing a bigger TT
filter.
ebruvold wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>OK....
Live in San Diego.  Had a pond installed last September. 
About a 3
 foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons.  Installed
 by local contractor.  Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus
 "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design
 Aquaclear"
Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning,
 etc.  But as you may have heard, southern california had more
rain than
 we have had in the last 100 years.  So a fair amount of run off
into
 the pond and outright rain.  Had to pump out water on numerous
 occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape.
With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals.
 Lillies going well.  I have about 10-15% surface area covered
and more
 pads every day.  I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly
 considering adding them.
HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae
 problem that is driving me to frustration.
Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear"
 bacteria and SAB.  Hand cleaning out every day the string algae
that is
 easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks.
But not sure it is helping!  Or at least I can not noticeably see
a
 difference.   Is my only hope to drain the pond and start
over?  Should
 I have patience with the product I am using?  Should I try something
 different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions
out
 there - any objective reviews?)</blockquote>
</html>

ebruvold

March 16th 05, 07:50 AM

More information seems in order.

The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put
it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the
benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the
filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged
and too soiled).

The pond gets a LOT of morning shade and then afternoon and evening
sun.

I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear
bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which
as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water
course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond.
What I am trying to figure out is how to make sense of ALL the products
out on the market. There seem to be scores of different "bacteria"
products. Are there any reviews????

Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-)

George

March 16th 05, 08:20 AM

"ebruvold" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> More information seems in order.
>
> The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put
> it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the
> benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the
> filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged
> and too soiled).
>
> The pond gets a LOT of morning shade and then afternoon and evening
> sun.
>
> I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear
> bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which
> as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water
> course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond.
> What I am trying to figure out is how to make sense of ALL the products
> out on the market. There seem to be scores of different "bacteria"
> products. Are there any reviews????
>
> Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-)

As advertized, your filter will not eliminate string algae. You should read
these articles about filtration:

http://www.practical-water-gardens.com/bioch0101.htm

http://www.worldofwater.com/filtration.htm

http://www.bestfish.com/sprngpnd.html

http://www.hoerrnursery.com/GardenInfo/WATERFiltrationBasics.cfm

http://www.ponddoc.com/Topics/Filtration.htm

And about the beneficial bacteria, if you are using it, have some patience.
These guys take a while (usually about a month) to get firmly established in
your pond.

Gale Pearce

March 16th 05, 01:59 PM

>
> Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3
> foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed
> by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus
> "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design
> Aquaclear"
>
> Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning,
> etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than
> we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into
> the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous
> occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape.
>
> With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals.
> Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more
> pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly
> considering adding them.
>
> HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae
> problem that is driving me to frustration.
>
> Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear"
> bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is
> easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks.
>
> But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a
> difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should
> I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something
> different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out
> there - any objective reviews?)

Patience is the single, most important thing with a new pond - it takes
literally months for it to completely settle down, but you are on the right
track with the bacteria supplements you are using and trying to get as much
shade as possible on the water surface with lily-pads - ~70% would be best.
There is no use tripling the bacteria as it will only "spike" the bacteria
level in your pond and filter up to a certain point, depending on 02 levels
in your pond water. Also don't clean out your filter as it needs the
bacteria to build up in it for it to work biologically (without being said,
your filter is running 24/7, right?)
As your lilies spread, your string algae will abate and as the bacteria in
your filter grows and catches up with the nutrients in your pond feeding the
suspended algae, your water will clear
Good luck Gale :~)

Benign Vanilla

March 16th 05, 02:04 PM

"ebruvold" > wrote in message
oups.com...
<snip>
> But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a
> difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should
> I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something
> different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out
> there - any objective reviews?)
<snip>

A few thoughts...

1. Dead algae is food for new algae
2. I would never put any algaecide into my pond with the exception of #3
3. You could try the blue dye tabs, which tint the water and cut down on
algae by starving them of sunlight.
4. Draining and refilling, is just going to give the algae a nice new batch
of water to work in and probably stress everything else. I wouldn't do it.
5. String algae can't be helped, just scoop it out.
6. More plants. Plants out compete algae
7. Patience
8. Get rid of your fish and chlorinate the pond...so no algae plants or
other critters will ever call the pond home.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our
eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516.
It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click!

kathy

March 16th 05, 02:20 PM

It is possible to have a clear pond without using any chemicals
at all. (which is a relief for those of us whose brains freeze at
'1 teaspoon per gallon')

Our ponds are nutrient heavy. We have WAY too many fish in
our ponds than Mother Nature recommends.
Like the other posters
recommended higher order plants are the way to use up the extra
nutrients.
Ways to cut down on nutrients is to cull the fish population,
stop feeding the fish as much and use a filter to screen and convert
fish waste.

Fresh water is a nutrient for algae and you've had more than your
share of fresh water this year. There isn't much you can do about
that.

Algae and string algae are very efficent at growing when the higher
order plants are still waking up. Spring is usually a time when ponds
will suffer an algae bloom.

I use watercress in the spring to get ahead of the algae. I place stems
of it (from the grocery store) under a rock (one stem to a rock) in my
waterfall. The stuff loves fast running, cool water. It spreads but the
roots
are shallow and brittle and it is very easy to rip up. I have
watercress that
wintered over, frozen in the ice, that is growing like crazy right now
and
the only other plant growth out there is two inch high iris.

The problem with algaecides is that they make lots of suddenly dead
algae which feeds the next algae bloom.

Your pond isn't old enough to need cleaning yet, but dead plant matter,
fish waste, mulm, muck and crud are also good food for algae.

And finally sun. Floating plants will shade the water, like lily pads.
Water hyacinth are
good floaters in that they reproduce like crazy. In zone 7, where we
are,
they don't survive the winter so have to be taken out as with their
demise
they will turn into decaying plants (more algae food).

Patience is always helpful. Frustrating, but helpful.
It takes a while to get to know your system and how to
manage it.
good luck!

kathy :-)

Hal

March 16th 05, 03:56 PM

On 15 Mar 2005 21:28:21 -0800, "ebruvold" > wrote:

>Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3
>foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed
>by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus
>"Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design
>Aquaclear"

San Diego Koi Club.
http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/index.html Reference Library/Green
Water
I've been reading Norm's article on Green Water for a number of years
and it is has become better information than the first time.

Sorry I don't have an immediate and absolute solution to your problem,
but you will overcome it, just keep working and be patient.

Regards,

Hal

Derek Broughton

March 16th 05, 04:20 PM

ebruvold wrote:

> The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put
> it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the
> benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the
> filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged
> and too soiled).

Note how "Biofalls" and "Contractor" appear so close together... I'm not
much of a fan of contractor-based solutions. Biofalls just seem to me to
be another way to separate recreational ponders from large amounts of
money.

> I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear
> bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which
> as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water
> course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond.
....
> Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-)

Frankly, short of a UV treatment system, I doubt you'll ever see the bottom
- and it's not something I'd aim for. It's unnatural, and it limits the
hiding places for fish. Being able to see a couple of feet into the pond
is good enough for me.
--
derek

Anne Lurie

March 16th 05, 08:10 PM

Isn't 6 Koi a lot for an 800-1000 gallon pond? I thought the basic rule is
1000 gallons for the first koi and 100 gallons for each additional one?

Anne

"ebruvold" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> OK....
>
> Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3
> foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed
> by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus
> "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design
> Aquaclear"
>
> Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning,
> etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than
> we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into
> the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous
> occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape.
>
> With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals.
> Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more
> pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly
> considering adding them.
>
> HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae
> problem that is driving me to frustration.
>
> Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear"
> bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is
> easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks.
>
> But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a
> difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should
> I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something
> different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out
> there - any objective reviews?)
>

Reel McKoi

March 16th 05, 08:20 PM

"Anne Lurie" > wrote in message
om...
> Isn't 6 Koi a lot for an 800-1000 gallon pond? I thought the basic rule
is
> 1000 gallons for the first koi and 100 gallons for each additional one?
==================
It's enough if they're young koi and there's good filtration, partial water
changes and aeration.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
"To persevere in one's duty and
be silent, is the best answer to calumny."
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Sean Dinh

March 16th 05, 10:55 PM

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I've been to Aquascape site, yet couldn't find any information regarding
what went inside the biofall. If you worry about killing the beneficial
bacteria, try cleaning half of the filter. Then clean the other half 2
weeks later. The other option is to stop feeding the fish, and clean the
filter now. Resume feeding 2 weeks later.
My pond had a lot of plants, yet it had pea soup water. It cleared once
my better filter started to function. I had those same green water in an
outdoor aquarium. It remained green until I put in some Water Hyacinth.
Plants alone did not clear the water, the same could be said about filter.
Don't feel too bad. People with superior filters still have problem
with pea soup. They still need to resort to using UV filter to remove it.
If you want a quick solution, get one installed.
As for bacteria products, I have no idea. I've never used them.
ebruvold wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>More information seems in order.
The filter  is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter.  The contractor
who put
 it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the
 benefial bacteria.  I believe the recommendation was to change
out the
 filter once a year.  It looks generally clean (or at least not
clogged
 and too soiled).
The pond gets a LOT of morning shade and then afternoon and evening
 sun.
I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear
 bacteria plus SAB enyme.  I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley
(which
 as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water
 course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond.
 What I am trying to figure out is how to make sense of ALL the products
 out on the market.  There seem to be scores of different "bacteria"
 products.  Are there any reviews????
Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-)</blockquote>
</html>

Benign Vanilla

March 17th 05, 01:15 AM

"Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
...
> I've been to Aquascape site, yet couldn't find any information regarding
what went inside the
> biofall. If you worry about killing the beneficial bacteria, try cleaning
half of the filter. Then
> clean the other half 2 weeks later. The other option is to stop feeding
the fish, and clean the
> filter now. Resume feeding 2 weeks later.
<snip>

Or take the output of your pump and clean the filter outside the pond with
pond water. Put the filter back on-line, and then top your pond off. Minimal
filter death that way.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our
eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516.
It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click!

ebruvold

March 17th 05, 04:01 AM

They are LITTLE koi - I think the biggest is about 5-6 inches. Haven't
really fed them much for about 2 weeks. Figured there was enough stuff
for them to munch on in the pondDid give them a bit today - they
gobbled up the food quickly.

George

March 17th 05, 06:54 AM

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> ebruvold wrote:
>
>> The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put
>> it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the
>> benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the
>> filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged
>> and too soiled).
>
> Note how "Biofalls" and "Contractor" appear so close together... I'm not
> much of a fan of contractor-based solutions. Biofalls just seem to me to
> be another way to separate recreational ponders from large amounts of
> money.
>
>> I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear
>> bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which
>> as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water
>> course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond.
> ...
>> Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-)
>
> Frankly, short of a UV treatment system, I doubt you'll ever see the bottom
> - and it's not something I'd aim for. It's unnatural, and it limits the
> hiding places for fish. Being able to see a couple of feet into the pond
> is good enough for me.
> --
> derek

Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom of my pond
(45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the bottom? lol

George

March 17th 05, 06:57 AM

"Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
...
> I've been to Aquascape site, yet couldn't find any information regarding what
> went inside the biofall. If you worry about killing the beneficial bacteria,
> try cleaning half of the filter. Then clean the other half 2 weeks later. The
> other option is to stop feeding the fish, and clean the filter now. Resume
> feeding 2 weeks later.
> My pond had a lot of plants, yet it had pea soup water. It cleared once my
> better filter started to function. I had those same green water in an outdoor
> aquarium. It remained green until I put in some Water Hyacinth. Plants alone
> did not clear the water, the same could be said about filter.
>
> Don't feel too bad. People with superior filters still have problem with pea
> soup. They still need to resort to using UV filter to remove it. If you want a
> quick solution, get one installed.

Hmmm. If the filter is so superior, why do they have pea green soup for water?
I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three years
ago. I haven't had it since.

> As for bacteria products, I have no idea. I've never used them.

They work, and work well.

George

March 17th 05, 07:01 AM

"ebruvold" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> They are LITTLE koi - I think the biggest is about 5-6 inches. Haven't
> really fed them much for about 2 weeks. Figured there was enough stuff
> for them to munch on in the pondDid give them a bit today - they
> gobbled up the food quickly.

In about three years, they will be MUCH BIGGER.

Benign Vanilla

March 17th 05, 01:59 PM

"George" > wrote in message
news:wT9_d.144483$4q6.122051@attbi_s01...
<snip>
> > Don't feel too bad. People with superior filters still have problem with
pea
> > soup. They still need to resort to using UV filter to remove it. If you
want a
> > quick solution, get one installed.
>
> Hmmm. If the filter is so superior, why do they have pea green soup for
water?
> I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three
years
> ago. I haven't had it since.
>
> > As for bacteria products, I have no idea. I've never used them.
>
> They work, and work well.
>

I disagree. I get an algae bloom EVERY YEAR. When the VF takes off, the
water clears within days. My neighbor, who uses a biofilter only, added a VF
last year, and had clear water for the first time.

I am not anti-UV, I just don't have a need for it.

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our
eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516.
It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click!

Joe Williams

March 17th 05, 02:22 PM

I use a veggie filter and can always see the bottom of mine also. My
pond is 3 foot deep. Oh by the way this is rebeljoe on someone elses
box.

Derek Broughton

March 17th 05, 03:21 PM

George wrote:

> Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom of
> my pond
> (45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the
> bottom? lol

Perhaps :-)

I don't believe in UV either, but I have never expected to see the bottom of
my pond (about the same depth, perhaps a little more). I can see it just
fine in the early spring, and occasionally in the summer, but algae's a
normal part of a pond. It doesn't bother me.
--
derek

George

March 17th 05, 08:35 PM

"Joe Williams" > wrote in message
...
>I use a veggie filter and can always see the bottom of mine also. My
> pond is 3 foot deep. Oh by the way this is rebeljoe on someone elses
> box.

Veggie filters are truly the way to go, if you have room for it. I don't,
unfortunately.

George

March 17th 05, 08:36 PM

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> George wrote:
>
>> Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom of
>> my pond
>> (45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the
>> bottom? lol
>
> Perhaps :-)
>
> I don't believe in UV either, but I have never expected to see the bottom of
> my pond (about the same depth, perhaps a little more). I can see it just
> fine in the early spring, and occasionally in the summer, but algae's a
> normal part of a pond. It doesn't bother me.
> --
> derek

I can usually see the bootm of mine pretty much all year round. I truly believe
in biofiltration. It works.

George

March 17th 05, 08:41 PM

"Benign Vanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:wT9_d.144483$4q6.122051@attbi_s01...
> <snip>
>> > Don't feel too bad. People with superior filters still have problem with
> pea
>> > soup. They still need to resort to using UV filter to remove it. If you
> want a
>> > quick solution, get one installed.
>>
>> Hmmm. If the filter is so superior, why do they have pea green soup for
> water?
>> I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three
> years
>> ago. I haven't had it since.
>>
>> > As for bacteria products, I have no idea. I've never used them.
>>
>> They work, and work well.
>>
>
> I disagree. I get an algae bloom EVERY YEAR. When the VF takes off, the
> water clears within days. My neighbor, who uses a biofilter only, added a VF
> last year, and had clear water for the first time.
>
> I am not anti-UV, I just don't have a need for it.

Veggie filters are the way to go, if you have room for it. I don't so I use a
biofilter. It works. Perhaps you had a bad experience with it. I haven't. Of
course you are going to have some algae every year, especially at the end of
winter/early spring. That is a given since the veggies are perking up yet,
there is less shade, and the bacteria is still dormant. That changes within a
few weeks, and I can live with that. I never get pea soup algae. I always get
a little string algae in the early spring. But that is neither unsual, nor
unhealthy for the pond.

Reel McKoi

March 17th 05, 08:43 PM

"George" > wrote in message
news:rTl_d.79368$Ze3.26190@attbi_s51...
>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > George wrote:
> >
> >> Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom
of
> >> my pond
> >> (45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the
> >> bottom? lol
> >
> > Perhaps :-)
> >
> > I don't believe in UV either, but I have never expected to see the
bottom of
> > my pond (about the same depth, perhaps a little more). I can see it
just
> > fine in the early spring, and occasionally in the summer, but algae's a
> > normal part of a pond. It doesn't bother me.
> > --
> > derek
>
> I can usually see the bootm of mine pretty much all year round. I truly
believe
> in biofiltration. It works.
=======================================
We also use heavy biofiltration but every spring we still get an algae bloom
for a week or more. I wish I could add more plants to the larger pond but
the koi just rip them out of their pots or knock them over. Only the water
iris and water bamboo survive them. The other plants are in the settling
tank/plant filter.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
Zone 6 TN
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

Sean Dinh

March 17th 05, 09:04 PM

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
They are superior in term of ammonia and nitrite removal. There is still
nitrate left.
George wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hmmm.  If the filter is so superior, why do
they have pea green soup for water?
 I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three
years
 ago. I haven't had it since.</blockquote>
</html>

George

March 17th 05, 10:33 PM

"Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:rTl_d.79368$Ze3.26190@attbi_s51...
>>
>> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > George wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom
> of
>> >> my pond
>> >> (45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the
>> >> bottom? lol
>> >
>> > Perhaps :-)
>> >
>> > I don't believe in UV either, but I have never expected to see the
> bottom of
>> > my pond (about the same depth, perhaps a little more). I can see it
> just
>> > fine in the early spring, and occasionally in the summer, but algae's a
>> > normal part of a pond. It doesn't bother me.
>> > --
>> > derek
>>
>> I can usually see the bootm of mine pretty much all year round. I truly
> believe
>> in biofiltration. It works.
> =======================================
> We also use heavy biofiltration but every spring we still get an algae bloom
> for a week or more. I wish I could add more plants to the larger pond but
> the koi just rip them out of their pots or knock them over. Only the water
> iris and water bamboo survive them. The other plants are in the settling
> tank/plant filter.
> --
> McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
> Zone 6 TN
> ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

And you will likely continue to get algae blooms in the spring, whether you use
biofiltration or a veggie filter. I don't think that there is much you can do
about that except to rduce the bioload in the winter, quit feeding the fish, or
just be patient and wait until the filters kick in when the water warms up. You
could of course heat the water during the winter, if you don't mind extravagant
electric bills.

George

March 17th 05, 10:59 PM

"Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
...
> They are superior in term of ammonia and nitrite removal. There is still
> nitrate left.
> George wrote:
>
> Hmmm. If the filter is so superior, why do they have pea green soup for
> water?
> I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three years
> ago. I haven't had it since.

I might experiment with a possible nitrate solution this year. If you're a
marine aquarium buff, and I am, then you know that everyone is moving completely
away from artificial filtration and moving to natural filters. What this means
is getting rid of all the foam, bioballs, and most any other filter media that
convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. What is substituted for these are a
refugium (garden pond people are already doing this with veggie filters), live
rock, and thick sea sand on the bottom with a current flowing over it. The idea
of using the sand substrate for filtration (without using the terrible
undergravel filters that suck up all the gunk in the tank and then let it
decompose on the bottom, adding to the nitrate problem) is that sea sand acts as
a nitrate filter, because the water flow through it is very slow compared to
other filters. With a current flowing over top of the sand (as you wold have in
a natural stream), a slow current is induced in the sand. So it allows for the
growth bacteria that will utilize the nitrates. These bacteria also grow in the
live rock. I know that everyone is against placing rock or any substrate in the
bottom of their ponds for various reasons. What I plan to do is to change the
setup on my main filter by pulling it completely out of the pond (the filter
material is all from porous rock). This will allow more room for the fish to
move around in. It will also allow me to build a fresh water reef on top of an
8 inch coarse, dark sand base. The final modification will be to divert some of
the outflow from the primary filter to allow it to flow slowly over the sand
base and more strongly across the reef structure (this might involve getting a
bigger pump, or a second pump). It works very well for sal****er tanks, so I'm
strongly considering trying this method.

Sean Dinh

March 18th 05, 10:54 AM

Hi George,

the only major problem I see atm is hydrogen sulfide gas.
You would need a serious degassing tower to remove it fast.

I have rocks and kitty litter in my pond. I'm hoping the 3
Dojo Loach are digging around there to reduce hydrogen
sulfide gas accumulation.

As for nitrate reduction, the simplest is to use a 4' tall
Trickle Tower outside the pond. Since you don't have any
plants in your pond, you won't worry about TT being too
efficient in removing nitrate. Only people like me worry
about having too little nitrate for our water plants.

George wrote:
> I might experiment with a possible nitrate solution this year. If you're a
> marine aquarium buff, and I am, then you know that everyone is moving completely
> away from artificial filtration and moving to natural filters. What this means
> is getting rid of all the foam, bioballs, and most any other filter media that
> convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. What is substituted for these are a
> refugium (garden pond people are already doing this with veggie filters), live
> rock, and thick sea sand on the bottom with a current flowing over it. The idea
> of using the sand substrate for filtration (without using the terrible
> undergravel filters that suck up all the gunk in the tank and then let it
> decompose on the bottom, adding to the nitrate problem) is that sea sand acts as
> a nitrate filter, because the water flow through it is very slow compared to
> other filters. With a current flowing over top of the sand (as you wold have in
> a natural stream), a slow current is induced in the sand. So it allows for the
> growth bacteria that will utilize the nitrates. These bacteria also grow in the
> live rock. I know that everyone is against placing rock or any substrate in the
> bottom of their ponds for various reasons. What I plan to do is to change the
> setup on my main filter by pulling it completely out of the pond (the filter
> material is all from porous rock). This will allow more room for the fish to
> move around in. It will also allow me to build a fresh water reef on top of an
> 8 inch coarse, dark sand base. The final modification will be to divert some of
> the outflow from the primary filter to allow it to flow slowly over the sand
> base and more strongly across the reef structure (this might involve getting a
> bigger pump, or a second pump). It works very well for sal****er tanks, so I'm
> strongly considering trying this method.

~ jan JJsPond.us

March 18th 05, 05:26 PM

>4. Draining and refilling, is just going to give the algae a nice new batch
>of water to work in and probably stress everything else. I wouldn't do it.

I think this one is a total myth, more a YMMV.

Every year I have to totally drain my lily pond to get the baby fish and
muck out. So all new (treated) water goes in. That was a week ago, still
perfectly clear. Course I started the filter prior to the clean out so
there would be some bio-bugs in it. I gently rinse the sides, but leave the
fuzz algae attached.... and the clincher, there are no fish in the pond,
just the frogs doing their thing (which feeds the bacteria in the filter).

Now sometimes I have gotten Suspended Algae in this pond, but it had
nothing to do with the new water, it happened later in the summer when the
pH went sky high. 9.0+ and I'd over harvested some string algae (at the
time I didn't have much fuzz algae). The lily pads were thick, but once
that pH goes over 9.0 it becomes very difficult for the higher plants to
remove the nutrients. I'm hoping this year the fuzz algae has a good hold,
so far it is looking good. I also added a pound of baking soda from the
start. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

~ jan JJsPond.us

March 18th 05, 05:33 PM

>"ebruvold" > wrote in message
>> They are LITTLE koi - I think the biggest is about 5-6 inches. Haven't
>> really fed them much for about 2 weeks. Figured there was enough stuff
>> for them to munch on in the pondDid give them a bit today - they
>> gobbled up the food quickly.
>
>In about three years, they will be MUCH BIGGER.
>
In 3 years, so will his next pond. ;) (Nobody can have just one!)
~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~Roy~

March 18th 05, 05:34 PM

Why does your pond spike so high in PH..........is it concrete or does
it have lots of manmade stones or limestone type rocks in contact
with the water or?????
I know it is unrelated to a pond with filtration and such,
but my pond stays around 7.2 to 7.4 most all the time. Even if it went
higher or lower not much I could do without buying a dump truck load
of what ever is needed. Lowest I have ever seen mine was a 7.0 and the
highest was a 7.8. Sort of nice not having to fool with PH, cleaning
filters, and stuff, but it sucks when it comes to having gin clear
water and viewing fish deep down...About my only gripe with my pond is
viewability.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:26:34 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
> wrote:

>===<>>4. Draining and refilling, is just going to give the algae a nice new batch
>===<>>of water to work in and probably stress everything else. I wouldn't do it.
>===<>
>===<>I think this one is a total myth, more a YMMV.
>===<>
>===<>Every year I have to totally drain my lily pond to get the baby fish and
>===<>muck out. So all new (treated) water goes in. That was a week ago, still
>===<>perfectly clear. Course I started the filter prior to the clean out so
>===<>there would be some bio-bugs in it. I gently rinse the sides, but leave the
>===<>fuzz algae attached.... and the clincher, there are no fish in the pond,
>===<>just the frogs doing their thing (which feeds the bacteria in the filter).
>===<>
>===<>Now sometimes I have gotten Suspended Algae in this pond, but it had
>===<>nothing to do with the new water, it happened later in the summer when the
>===<>pH went sky high. 9.0+ and I'd over harvested some string algae (at the
>===<>time I didn't have much fuzz algae). The lily pads were thick, but once
>===<>that pH goes over 9.0 it becomes very difficult for the higher plants to
>===<>remove the nutrients. I'm hoping this year the fuzz algae has a good hold,
>===<>so far it is looking good. I also added a pound of baking soda from the
>===<>start. ~ jan
>===<>
>===<>
>===<>See my ponds and filter design:
>===<>http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>===<>
>===<> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>===<> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>===<> To e-mail see website

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~ jan JJsPond.us

March 18th 05, 05:36 PM

>I disagree. I get an algae bloom EVERY YEAR.

Let's see, this is like year 2 for you, isn't it? ;)

I don't use a UV, have a great bio-filter on the koi pond (10 yo), have no
fish in the lily pond (5 yo). No suspended algae. I don't think your pond
has matured enough, I bet your will see, if you control the fish load, that
you'll have less and less algae bloom as the pond matures. ;) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us

March 18th 05, 05:39 PM

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:04:53 -0800, Sean Dinh >
wrote:

Sean, you need to turn off your html. ~ jan

><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>They are superior in term of ammonia and nitrite removal. There is still
>nitrate left.
>George wrote:
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>Hmmm.  If the filter is so superior, why do
>they have pea green soup for water?
> I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three
>years
> ago. I haven't had it since.</blockquote>
></html>

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Sean Dinh

March 18th 05, 06:07 PM

I did. I found that out earlier this morning when I was
messing around with settings. I didn't realize about that
before.

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote:
> Sean, you need to turn off your html. ~ jan

George

March 18th 05, 09:57 PM

"Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
...
> Hi George,
>
> the only major problem I see atm is hydrogen sulfide gas.
> You would need a serious degassing tower to remove it fast.
>
> I have rocks and kitty litter in my pond. I'm hoping the 3
> Dojo Loach are digging around there to reduce hydrogen
> sulfide gas accumulation.
>
> As for nitrate reduction, the simplest is to use a 4' tall
> Trickle Tower outside the pond. Since you don't have any
> plants in your pond, you won't worry about TT being too
> efficient in removing nitrate. Only people like me worry
> about having too little nitrate for our water plants.

I do have plants in my pond. I have lillies, irises, and cattails. I don't
have room for a veggie filter. Trickle towers have been shown to produce more
nitrates than they digest (they aren't actually designed to digest nitrates
anyway, contrary to some advertisements seen on aquarium supplier web sites.
They were designed for CO2-O2 gas exchange and to provide a habitat for nitrite
and ammonia reducing bacteria, which tend to convert these compounds into
nitrates), which is why marine aquarium enthusiasts are moving completely away
from them and any mechanical filtration. As for hydrogen sulphide gas buildup,
it is true that this could be an issue. However, if oxygenated water is blown
over the sand bed and around the reef, and one periodically stirs it up, it
shouldn't be too much of a problem. It doesn't seem to be a problem in marine
aquariums, which tend to produce more gases than freshwater environments. The
key is not to let the sand bed go stagnent. Since the bacteria that will be
living in the sand bed and in the water will break down any detritus very
rapidly, and because sand is very porous , any gases produced will out-gas and
be washed out by the water flowing over the sand at a slow rate and be exchanged
in the main filter and on the waterfall with oxygenated water. In addition, the
sand will become a habitat for lots of critters which will no doubt continuously
bore into it. This is good, since it will disturb the bed and help keep it
oxygenated. In addition, since many of these critters reproduce rapidly, the
fish will root around in the sand bed looking for a tasty meal, disturbing the
sand bed even more, adding oxygen to the sand, and reducing the cost of fish
food. All of this is in theory, of course, since I don't know of anyone who has
tried this yet for garden fish ponds. This is why it is an experiment. I
recently (2 months ago)added a refugium to my marine aquarium (which has
macroalgae, live sand, and losts of snails and copopods in it) and added an
additional two inches of live sand to the main tank (for a total of five
inches). The water in my reef tank has remained nitrate-free ever since. The
trick is going to be how to evenly distribute the oxygenated water over the sand
without causing it to become suspended in the water and pile up somewhere. I'm
working on a model for that right now.

> George wrote:
>> I might experiment with a possible nitrate solution this year. If you're a
>> marine aquarium buff, and I am, then you know that everyone is moving
>> completely
>> away from artificial filtration and moving to natural filters. What this
>> means
>> is getting rid of all the foam, bioballs, and most any other filter media
>> that
>> convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. What is substituted for these are
>> a
>> refugium (garden pond people are already doing this with veggie filters),
>> live
>> rock, and thick sea sand on the bottom with a current flowing over it. The
>> idea
>> of using the sand substrate for filtration (without using the terrible
>> undergravel filters that suck up all the gunk in the tank and then let it
>> decompose on the bottom, adding to the nitrate problem) is that sea sand acts
>> as
>> a nitrate filter, because the water flow through it is very slow compared to
>> other filters. With a current flowing over top of the sand (as you wold have
>> in
>> a natural stream), a slow current is induced in the sand. So it allows for
>> the
>> growth bacteria that will utilize the nitrates. These bacteria also grow in
>> the
>> live rock. I know that everyone is against placing rock or any substrate in
>> the
>> bottom of their ponds for various reasons. What I plan to do is to change
>> the
>> setup on my main filter by pulling it completely out of the pond (the filter
>> material is all from porous rock). This will allow more room for the fish to
>> move around in. It will also allow me to build a fresh water reef on top of
>> an
>> 8 inch coarse, dark sand base. The final modification will be to divert some
>> of
>> the outflow from the primary filter to allow it to flow slowly over the sand
>> base and more strongly across the reef structure (this might involve getting
>> a
>> bigger pump, or a second pump). It works very well for sal****er tanks, so
>> I'm
>> strongly considering trying this method.

Sean Dinh

March 19th 05, 12:12 AM

TT and nitrate reduction...
http://tinyurl.com/4hlhx

George

March 19th 05, 03:30 AM

"Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
...
> TT and nitrate reduction...
> http://tinyurl.com/4hlhx

10 ppm is not acceptable in reef aquariums, and I strongly suspect it does
little good in large freshwater systems (such as garden ponds) with
no/inadequate plants to remove it. Hence, the algae blooms. In a sand bed that
uses a Jaubert plenum, a porous plenum is constructed beneath the bed with a
void space below the bed that is filled with water, anaerobic bacteria form in
the bottom depths of the substrate and in the water below. As anaerobic bacteria
cultivate, they remove nitrates. Anaerobic action produces a fair amount of
heat. The heat warms the water layer below the gravel. The warmer water flows
upwards, displacing cooler water above the gravel. This action moves water
through the plenum at very slow rates. The slow movement of water through the
gravel helps to prevent dangerous hydrogen-sulfide gases from forming in the
plenum. The deep gravel bed also provides a home for burrowing motile
invertebrates which feed on solid organic mulm and detritus. The idea here is
to move away from systems that required heavy maintenance to prevent nitraqtes
from getting too high. Trickle filters work great in removing nitrogen
compounds over a limited time period before they must be maintained (i.e.,
cleaning pre-filters, etc). Sand beds with a Jaubert plenum usually never have
to be cleaned because, if it is properly constructed, there is no build up.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=21

Elaine T

March 19th 05, 04:50 AM

George wrote:
> "Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>TT and nitrate reduction...
>>http://tinyurl.com/4hlhx
>
>
> 10 ppm is not acceptable in reef aquariums, and I strongly suspect it does
> little good in large freshwater systems (such as garden ponds) with
> no/inadequate plants to remove it. Hence, the algae blooms. In a sand bed that
> uses a Jaubert plenum, a porous plenum is constructed beneath the bed with a
> void space below the bed that is filled with water, anaerobic bacteria form in
> the bottom depths of the substrate and in the water below. As anaerobic bacteria
> cultivate, they remove nitrates. Anaerobic action produces a fair amount of
> heat. The heat warms the water layer below the gravel. The warmer water flows
> upwards, displacing cooler water above the gravel. This action moves water
> through the plenum at very slow rates. The slow movement of water through the
> gravel helps to prevent dangerous hydrogen-sulfide gases from forming in the
> plenum. The deep gravel bed also provides a home for burrowing motile
> invertebrates which feed on solid organic mulm and detritus. The idea here is
> to move away from systems that required heavy maintenance to prevent nitraqtes
> from getting too high. Trickle filters work great in removing nitrogen
> compounds over a limited time period before they must be maintained (i.e.,
> cleaning pre-filters, etc). Sand beds with a Jaubert plenum usually never have
> to be cleaned because, if it is properly constructed, there is no build up.
>
> http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=21
>
>
Jaubert plenums have been tried in large FW planted tanks shortly after
they became popular in sal****er. It is much harder to get a population
of denitrifying bacteria in FW that does not include sulfur reducing
bacteria and generally attempts at denitrification in FW crash and burn.
Sulfur reducing bacteria establish in the plenum, poison the water,
and fish start showing all sorts of bizarre diseases in what otherwise
seems to be a healthy system.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

George

March 19th 05, 07:22 AM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> George wrote:
>> "Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>TT and nitrate reduction...
>>>http://tinyurl.com/4hlhx
>>
>>
>> 10 ppm is not acceptable in reef aquariums, and I strongly suspect it does
>> little good in large freshwater systems (such as garden ponds) with
>> no/inadequate plants to remove it. Hence, the algae blooms. In a sand bed
>> that uses a Jaubert plenum, a porous plenum is constructed beneath the bed
>> with a void space below the bed that is filled with water, anaerobic bacteria
>> form in the bottom depths of the substrate and in the water below. As
>> anaerobic bacteria cultivate, they remove nitrates. Anaerobic action produces
>> a fair amount of heat. The heat warms the water layer below the gravel. The
>> warmer water flows upwards, displacing cooler water above the gravel. This
>> action moves water through the plenum at very slow rates. The slow movement
>> of water through the gravel helps to prevent dangerous hydrogen-sulfide gases
>> from forming in the plenum. The deep gravel bed also provides a home for
>> burrowing motile invertebrates which feed on solid organic mulm and detritus.
>> The idea here is to move away from systems that required heavy maintenance to
>> prevent nitraqtes from getting too high. Trickle filters work great in
>> removing nitrogen compounds over a limited time period before they must be
>> maintained (i.e., cleaning pre-filters, etc). Sand beds with a Jaubert
>> plenum usually never have to be cleaned because, if it is properly
>> constructed, there is no build up.
>>
>> http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=21
> Jaubert plenums have been tried in large FW planted tanks shortly after they
> became popular in sal****er. It is much harder to get a population of
> denitrifying bacteria in FW that does not include sulfur reducing bacteria and
> generally attempts at denitrification in FW crash and burn. Sulfur reducing
> bacteria establish in the plenum, poison the water, and fish start showing all
> sorts of bizarre diseases in what otherwise seems to be a healthy system.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Do you have a link to any papers on this? I found a web site this evening that
describes the set up and it seems to suggest that it works very well, at least
in freshwater aquariums. It also recommended to use 2-3 mm diameter gravel
instead of sand. Since we are talking about a lot more water, I am considering
using even larger gravel (probably something slightly smaller than peah gravel).
I've also read elsewhere that fears of crashing and burning are unfounded if it
is done properly. Of course, like any experiment, I'll have to monitor it.
Sulphur-reducing bacteria could become a problem if the substrate becomes
completely anoxic. But most sulpur-reducing bacteria are anoxic. The idea of
using a live gravel bed in a garden pond must take into considerations all of
the needs of the bateria that will live there. De-nitrifying bacteria are
anoxic, while ammonia reducing and nitrite-reducing bacteria are aerobic. The
idea is to get all three types growing in the same substrate. So can we expect
these three bacteria to live viably together? The answer is yes, IF oxygentated
water is induced to flow just above the gravel (parallel to it), which will
induce flow/exchange within the gravel, but at a low rate. I suspect that my
hogs (fish) will also root around in it enough looking for food that it will get
enough oxygenation. But I plan to come up with a way to create the current flow
a few inches above the gravel. I already have a very thin layer of gravel on
the bottom (I had extra gravel when I built my biofilter, and I wanted to add a
little color to the bottom of the pond), and they do root around in what I
already have there. But I will certainly take your advice at heart before I
make any final decisions. Thanks for the advice. Oh, and after reading that
article, and your advice, I will probably lose the plenum and just build the
substrate right on the bottom. Here is the link to the site I found:

http://www.athiel.com/lib/lg-fw.html

Here is another one about gravel filtration (as opposed to undergravel
filtration):

http://www.athiel.com/lib/ugfilterarticle.htm

Just read the part about gravel filtration.

~ jan JJsPond.us

March 19th 05, 07:41 AM

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:34:15 GMT, (~Roy~) wrote:

>Why does your pond spike so high in PH..........

I have cement blocks around the edge, last year was the worst and they were
5 years old by that time, acid washed many times too. Don't know what the
deal was. Lots of baking soda and water changes took care of it. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Elaine T

March 19th 05, 08:00 AM

George wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>George wrote:
>>
>>>"Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>TT and nitrate reduction...
>>>>http://tinyurl.com/4hlhx
>>>
>>>
>>>10 ppm is not acceptable in reef aquariums, and I strongly suspect it does
>>>little good in large freshwater systems (such as garden ponds) with
>>>no/inadequate plants to remove it. Hence, the algae blooms. In a sand bed
>>>that uses a Jaubert plenum, a porous plenum is constructed beneath the bed
>>>with a void space below the bed that is filled with water, anaerobic bacteria
>>>form in the bottom depths of the substrate and in the water below. As
>>>anaerobic bacteria cultivate, they remove nitrates. Anaerobic action produces
>>>a fair amount of heat. The heat warms the water layer below the gravel. The
>>>warmer water flows upwards, displacing cooler water above the gravel. This
>>>action moves water through the plenum at very slow rates. The slow movement
>>>of water through the gravel helps to prevent dangerous hydrogen-sulfide gases
>>>from forming in the plenum. The deep gravel bed also provides a home for
>>>burrowing motile invertebrates which feed on solid organic mulm and detritus.
>>>The idea here is to move away from systems that required heavy maintenance to
>>>prevent nitraqtes from getting too high. Trickle filters work great in
>>>removing nitrogen compounds over a limited time period before they must be
>>>maintained (i.e., cleaning pre-filters, etc). Sand beds with a Jaubert
>>>plenum usually never have to be cleaned because, if it is properly
>>>constructed, there is no build up.
>>>
>>>http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=21
>>
>>Jaubert plenums have been tried in large FW planted tanks shortly after they
>>became popular in sal****er. It is much harder to get a population of
>>denitrifying bacteria in FW that does not include sulfur reducing bacteria and
>>generally attempts at denitrification in FW crash and burn. Sulfur reducing
>>bacteria establish in the plenum, poison the water, and fish start showing all
>>sorts of bizarre diseases in what otherwise seems to be a healthy system.
>>
>>--
>> __ Elaine T __
>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>
>
> Do you have a link to any papers on this? I found a web site this evening that
> describes the set up and it seems to suggest that it works very well, at least
> in freshwater aquariums. It also recommended to use 2-3 mm diameter gravel
> instead of sand. Since we are talking about a lot more water, I am considering
> using even larger gravel (probably something slightly smaller than peah gravel).
> I've also read elsewhere that fears of crashing and burning are unfounded if it
> is done properly. Of course, like any experiment, I'll have to monitor it.
> Sulphur-reducing bacteria could become a problem if the substrate becomes
> completely anoxic. But most sulpur-reducing bacteria are anoxic. The idea of
> using a live gravel bed in a garden pond must take into considerations all of
> the needs of the bateria that will live there. De-nitrifying bacteria are
> anoxic, while ammonia reducing and nitrite-reducing bacteria are aerobic. The
> idea is to get all three types growing in the same substrate. So can we expect
> these three bacteria to live viably together? The answer is yes, IF oxygentated
> water is induced to flow just above the gravel (parallel to it), which will
> induce flow/exchange within the gravel, but at a low rate. I suspect that my
> hogs (fish) will also root around in it enough looking for food that it will get
> enough oxygenation. But I plan to come up with a way to create the current flow
> a few inches above the gravel. I already have a very thin layer of gravel on
> the bottom (I had extra gravel when I built my biofilter, and I wanted to add a
> little color to the bottom of the pond), and they do root around in what I
> already have there. But I will certainly take your advice at heart before I
> make any final decisions. Thanks for the advice. Oh, and after reading that
> article, and your advice, I will probably lose the plenum and just build the
> substrate right on the bottom. Here is the link to the site I found:
>
> http://www.athiel.com/lib/lg-fw.html
>
> Here is another one about gravel filtration (as opposed to undergravel
> filtration):
>
> http://www.athiel.com/lib/ugfilterarticle.htm
>
> Just read the part about gravel filtration.
>
>
I can't find the failed Jaubert attempt right off, but here's some on
similar denitrification attempts - not formal, and nobody as famous as
Thiel.

http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/plenum.html has an article on the
shortcomings of Jaubert's original idea in FW.

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/nitrate.html has my own account of
trying to use a commercial denitrator called a Nitrex box. It was a
flat, black box with a nutrient mix for denitrifying bacteria that was
supposed to prevent the growth of sulfur-reducing bacteria. There were
slots for convective circulation and you buried it in the gravel to form
something like a plenum. I got nice denitrification for a while and
then the typical H2S crash and burn.

http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/denitrator.html has George Booth's DIY
coil denitrator design. Similar to my experience, after a few months of
successful operation, the coil started pumping H2S into the tank and
killing fish. George Booth is a gifted plant tank aquarist, and if
anyone could have pulled off denitrification it would be him.

I was reading rec.aquaria avidly then and nobody managed a successful
denitrator design in FW other than bog filters or algae scrubbers.

However, Thiel's live gravel article is very interesting. It's actually
quite easy to run a planted aquarium with only water movement and
minimal filtration - the so-called Dutch Aquarium. The plants and
gravel provide plenty of surface area for filtration. Malaysian trumpet
snails (alas, tropicals) provide substrate turnover, with a loach
keeping the population from getting out of hand, and the plant roots
prevent anaerobic zones from developing.

Doing this in a pond seems possible if your fish...er hogs stir the
gravel and circulation over the gravel bed is good. I wonder if there
is a coldwater snail that would burrow in the gravel to help things stay
aerobic? I'm sure you'll get plenty of healthy nitrification in the
least. I hope it works out with some denitrification as well.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

George

March 19th 05, 10:34 AM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. com...
> George wrote:
>> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>
>>>George wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Sean Dinh" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>TT and nitrate reduction...
>>>>>http://tinyurl.com/4hlhx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>10 ppm is not acceptable in reef aquariums, and I strongly suspect it does
>>>>little good in large freshwater systems (such as garden ponds) with
>>>>no/inadequate plants to remove it. Hence, the algae blooms. In a sand bed
>>>>that uses a Jaubert plenum, a porous plenum is constructed beneath the bed
>>>>with a void space below the bed that is filled with water, anaerobic
>>>>bacteria form in the bottom depths of the substrate and in the water below.
>>>>As anaerobic bacteria cultivate, they remove nitrates. Anaerobic action
>>>>produces a fair amount of heat. The heat warms the water layer below the
>>>>gravel. The warmer water flows upwards, displacing cooler water above the
>>>>gravel. This action moves water through the plenum at very slow rates. The
>>>>slow movement of water through the gravel helps to prevent dangerous
>>>>hydrogen-sulfide gases from forming in the plenum. The deep gravel bed also
>>>>provides a home for burrowing motile invertebrates which feed on solid
>>>>organic mulm and detritus. The idea here is to move away from systems that
>>>>required heavy maintenance to prevent nitraqtes from getting too high.
>>>>Trickle filters work great in removing nitrogen compounds over a limited
>>>>time period before they must be maintained (i.e., cleaning pre-filters,
>>>>etc). Sand beds with a Jaubert plenum usually never have to be cleaned
>>>>because, if it is properly constructed, there is no build up.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=21
>>>
>>>Jaubert plenums have been tried in large FW planted tanks shortly after they
>>>became popular in sal****er. It is much harder to get a population of
>>>denitrifying bacteria in FW that does not include sulfur reducing bacteria
>>>and generally attempts at denitrification in FW crash and burn. Sulfur
>>>reducing bacteria establish in the plenum, poison the water, and fish start
>>>showing all sorts of bizarre diseases in what otherwise seems to be a healthy
>>>system.
>>>
>>>--
>>> __ Elaine T __
>>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>
>>
>> Do you have a link to any papers on this? I found a web site this evening
>> that describes the set up and it seems to suggest that it works very well, at
>> least in freshwater aquariums. It also recommended to use 2-3 mm diameter
>> gravel instead of sand. Since we are talking about a lot more water, I am
>> considering using even larger gravel (probably something slightly smaller
>> than peah gravel). I've also read elsewhere that fears of crashing and
>> burning are unfounded if it is done properly. Of course, like any
>> experiment, I'll have to monitor it. Sulphur-reducing bacteria could become a
>> problem if the substrate becomes completely anoxic. But most sulpur-reducing
>> bacteria are anoxic. The idea of using a live gravel bed in a garden pond
>> must take into considerations all of the needs of the bateria that will live
>> there. De-nitrifying bacteria are anoxic, while ammonia reducing and
>> nitrite-reducing bacteria are aerobic. The idea is to get all three types
>> growing in the same substrate. So can we expect these three bacteria to live
>> viably together? The answer is yes, IF oxygentated water is induced to flow
>> just above the gravel (parallel to it), which will induce flow/exchange
>> within the gravel, but at a low rate. I suspect that my hogs (fish) will
>> also root around in it enough looking for food that it will get enough
>> oxygenation. But I plan to come up with a way to create the current flow a
>> few inches above the gravel. I already have a very thin layer of gravel on
>> the bottom (I had extra gravel when I built my biofilter, and I wanted to add
>> a little color to the bottom of the pond), and they do root around in what I
>> already have there. But I will certainly take your advice at heart before I
>> make any final decisions. Thanks for the advice. Oh, and after reading that
>> article, and your advice, I will probably lose the plenum and just build the
>> substrate right on the bottom. Here is the link to the site I found:
>>
>> http://www.athiel.com/lib/lg-fw.html
>>
>> Here is another one about gravel filtration (as opposed to undergravel
>> filtration):
>>
>> http://www.athiel.com/lib/ugfilterarticle.htm
>>
>> Just read the part about gravel filtration.
> I can't find the failed Jaubert attempt right off, but here's some on similar
> denitrification attempts - not formal, and nobody as famous as Thiel.
>
> http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/plenum.html has an article on the shortcomings
> of Jaubert's original idea in FW.
>
> http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/nitrate.html has my own account of trying to
> use a commercial denitrator called a Nitrex box. It was a flat, black box
> with a nutrient mix for denitrifying bacteria that was supposed to prevent the
> growth of sulfur-reducing bacteria. There were slots for convective
> circulation and you buried it in the gravel to form something like a plenum.
> I got nice denitrification for a while and then the typical H2S crash and
> burn.
>
> http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/denitrator.html has George Booth's DIY coil
> denitrator design. Similar to my experience, after a few months of successful
> operation, the coil started pumping H2S into the tank and killing fish.
> George Booth is a gifted plant tank aquarist, and if anyone could have pulled
> off denitrification it would be him.
>
> I was reading rec.aquaria avidly then and nobody managed a successful
> denitrator design in FW other than bog filters or algae scrubbers.
>
> However, Thiel's live gravel article is very interesting. It's actually quite
> easy to run a planted aquarium with only water movement and minimal
> filtration - the so-called Dutch Aquarium. The plants and gravel provide
> plenty of surface area for filtration. Malaysian trumpet snails (alas,
> tropicals) provide substrate turnover, with a loach keeping the population
> from getting out of hand, and the plant roots prevent anaerobic zones from
> developing.
>
> Doing this in a pond seems possible if your fish...er hogs stir the gravel and
> circulation over the gravel bed is good. I wonder if there is a coldwater
> snail that would burrow in the gravel to help things stay aerobic? I'm sure
> you'll get plenty of healthy nitrification in the least. I hope it works out
> with some denitrification as well.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

I am looking into what critters I can expect that might populated it
"naturally", and what I can introduce. I don't plan to plant any plants in the
substrate (it will be 45" below the water surface, at any rate).