Help me understand whats going on!!!

[[email protected]]

Hi,

I need some help understanding what is going on with my tank.

I have a 33gal tank acquired two weeks ago.
It has an aquaclear filter 300 (70) with sponge, charcoal and bio
filter.
Heater 300w to keep a 24C temp.
I left running fishless for a week, and tested it with master kit.

No amonia, no nitrites, ph 8 and hardness on the high side 180.

Last saturday I bought five neon tetras two yellow platties tow
gouramis and a male and female guppy.

Sunday one of neons died... he was sucked by the filter and didnt
recover.

Monday the female guppy died... she was okay sunday night I don;t know
what happened.

Tuesday I decided to buy two more female guppies and two swordfish.
Since monday I have been replacing roughly 10gal of water every day.

Yesterday one of the swordfish behaves weird. He can't stay straight
and can't swim very well and is upside down all the time.

I holding him with my fish net at the bottom so he doesnt get bitten by
the other fish and he is not adrift.

I tested the water again, and again no signs of amonia, ph still 8 and
nitrites zero...

Yesterday I added some gravel from the fishstore, to help grow
bacteria.

All the other fish seem to hold well, so I am not sure what to think at
this time, if the problem is the water or if it is the fish were weak
to start with and all this stress was too much for him...

Don't know and I want to understand, I don't want to see more fish
dying... that is not what I got a tank for... :(

[dfreas]

Offhand I would suggest lowering your pH to 7, a pH of 8 is quite high
for tetras. I'm not suggesting this is the problem but it certainly
isn't helping - such a high pH will probably stress most freshwater
fish a bit, and tetras in particular since they prefer soft slightly
acidic water. I know when my CO2 system stopped working and my pH
jumped to around 8 all of my cardinal tetras hovered together in a
corner and stopped moving until the pH came back down again.

Other than that it is difficult to say without knowing more. It doesn't
sound like you did anything terribly wrong. Just wait it out and hope
for the best.

-Daniel

[[email protected]]

The tetras are doing great, they swim all over the place and are a joy
to look at... I plan on getting more to make a bigger pack... it's nice
to see them together. :)

[spiral_72]

When you added the fish were they allowed to acclimate or just dumped
in? The pet store may have water of 7.0pH. A pH change that large
should be very gradual........ Add your tank water to the bag a little
at a time over an hour when you bring them home from the pet store.

IMO neons don't like high pH at all. A product like "PH 7.0" is a very
simple way to lower your pH to a preset level and hold it there,
especially for a beginner. Be warned though, phosphate buffers like PH
7.0 may cause problems later. If you use it, make the pH change over
several days. Add the stuff a little at a time.

my aquarium page, info and pics at:
www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

[[email protected]]

It is strange that you say neons dont like high ph... I have neons
tetra, not Cardinal.

As I said, they are doing great.. I don't notice anything unusual about
them... they are all over the place. :)
If they are sensivble to the ph by now they would have shown signs of
it...

[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> It is strange that you say neons dont like high ph... I have neons
> tetra, not Cardinal.
>
> As I said, they are doing great.. I don't notice anything unusual about
> them... they are all over the place. :)
> If they are sensivble to the ph by now they would have shown signs of
> it...
>
Actually my neons are doing great at a pH of around 8 but, and this is quite
a big but, this is the normal pH for the area I live in and my lfs
acclimitise the fish before selling them on. I know their pH because I asked
them.

[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I need some help understanding what is going on with my tank.
>
> I have a 33gal tank acquired two weeks ago.
> It has an aquaclear filter 300 (70) with sponge, charcoal and bio
> filter.
> Heater 300w to keep a 24C temp.
> I left running fishless for a week, and tested it with master kit.
>
> No amonia, no nitrites, ph 8 and hardness on the high side 180.
>
> Last saturday I bought five neon tetras two yellow platties tow
> gouramis and a male and female guppy.
>
> Sunday one of neons died... he was sucked by the filter and didnt
> recover.
>
> Monday the female guppy died... she was okay sunday night I don;t know
> what happened.
>
> Tuesday I decided to buy two more female guppies and two swordfish.
> Since monday I have been replacing roughly 10gal of water every day.
>
> Yesterday one of the swordfish behaves weird. He can't stay straight
> and can't swim very well and is upside down all the time.
>
> I holding him with my fish net at the bottom so he doesnt get bitten by
> the other fish and he is not adrift.
>
> I tested the water again, and again no signs of amonia, ph still 8 and
> nitrites zero...
>
> Yesterday I added some gravel from the fishstore, to help grow
> bacteria.
>
> All the other fish seem to hold well, so I am not sure what to think at
> this time, if the problem is the water or if it is the fish were weak
> to start with and all this stress was too much for him...
>
> Don't know and I want to understand, I don't want to see more fish
> dying... that is not what I got a tank for... :(
>
IMHO you are adding too many fish too fast for a tank that has only been
running for 2 weeks.

Do you test the water before or after the water change? It might be worth
taking a sample to your LFS to see what they test it out as in case there is
a problem with your test kit. IME I would certainly expect you to be getting
nitrite readings at this stage in the cycling if not ammonia.

[Ozdude]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I need some help understanding what is going on with my tank.
<snip>

You're over-stocking your tank too fast!

A couple of fish at a time, or they will die off, if not from shock, from a
mini-cycle of the filter every time you throw more fish in the tank.

10% water changes aren't going to do much to alleviate your problems -
20-40% will help, twice per week - but you are simply adding too many fish
at once IMO.

Oz

[[email protected]]

I don't plan on adding more fish at this time anyway... I've been
replacing 30% of the water everyday.
The tests I usually do it after the water change.
I just hope not to lose another fish...

[[email protected]]

I thought so too, but the test shows no nitrites.
Amonia I think it is starting to rise, because on my last test the tube
was not clear, I could see a nuance of yellow, which would put it
between 0 and 0.6 in the scale I believe....
Btw I lost the swordtail...

[anemone]

dont change that much water every day!!!! You're stressing your fish out!!!
Do as Ozdude suggested and change 20-40% twice a week. They'll be more
beneficial to you 30% every day.....geez!
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I don't plan on adding more fish at this time anyway... I've been
> replacing 30% of the water everyday.
> The tests I usually do it after the water change.
> I just hope not to lose another fish...
>

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I need some help understanding what is going on with my tank.
>
> I have a 33gal tank acquired two weeks ago.
> It has an aquaclear filter 300 (70) with sponge, charcoal and bio
> filter.
> Heater 300w to keep a 24C temp.
> I left running fishless for a week, and tested it with master kit.
>
> No amonia, no nitrites, ph 8 and hardness on the high side 180.
>
> Last saturday I bought five neon tetras two yellow platties tow
> gouramis and a male and female guppy.
>
> Sunday one of neons died... he was sucked by the filter and didnt
> recover.
>
> Monday the female guppy died... she was okay sunday night I don;t know
> what happened.
>
> Tuesday I decided to buy two more female guppies and two swordfish.
> Since monday I have been replacing roughly 10gal of water every day.
>
> Yesterday one of the swordfish behaves weird. He can't stay straight
> and can't swim very well and is upside down all the time.
>
> I holding him with my fish net at the bottom so he doesnt get bitten by
> the other fish and he is not adrift.
>
> I tested the water again, and again no signs of amonia, ph still 8 and
> nitrites zero...
>
> Yesterday I added some gravel from the fishstore, to help grow
> bacteria.
>
> All the other fish seem to hold well, so I am not sure what to think at
> this time, if the problem is the water or if it is the fish were weak
> to start with and all this stress was too much for him...
>
> Don't know and I want to understand, I don't want to see more fish
> dying... that is not what I got a tank for... :(
>
I've read all the replies to this thread and have a few things to say.

First, you're going to lose some fish. It's almost impossible to start
a tank out as overstocked as yours is and not lose a few. Have you read
the info on cycling at http://faq.thekrib.com? When I started my first
ever tank, it was a 29 gallon and I cycled it for 4 weeks with only 5
black tetras. It felt like forever until I could add more fish!

Second, do NOT try to change your pH unless you start breeding fish or
keeping extremely sensitive fish like discus. I'm sorry, but you're
getting bad advice on that one. I learned from the fish store owner
where I worked (he had 30 years aquarium experience and wrote articles
for TFH) that just about any fish does fine at any pH between 6 and 8 as
long as the pH stays stable. Fish HATE pH swings and the best way to do
that is to start messing with your water chemistry.

Now, I'm going to tell you to mess with your pH. ;-) The only time I
recommend changing it is when there is ammonia present in the tank at
over 1 ppm. Then you want it at 7.2 or below because the lower the pH,
the less toxic the ammonia is. Unfortunately, you will add some
phosphate to the tank with most pH down chemicals and that tends to spur
algae growth. You will probably have to adjust the pH daily during the
ammonia phase because pH down doesn't keep the pH down very long. Once
the cycle is through, a series of small water changes will remove the
phosphates and gradually bring your water back up to pH 8 where your
fish will live from then on.

As for water changes, your biofilter needs that ammonia to get started.
You can change some water if the ammonia creeps over 2 ppm, but your
biofilter will develop faster if you change less water and manage the
pH. Also, if you've lowered the tank pH to lower ammonia toxicity,
lower the water change water pH to match. If you do a water change and
suddenly raise the pH in the presence of ammonia, your fish are certain
to die.

Nitrites are next. For that, make sure the tank is well-aerated because
nitrite stresses the gills. Again monitor, and only change water if the
fish are showing signs of distress - lethargy, and gasping.

Hang in there - this is the worst part of fishkeeping! The first two
months of a new tank are the absolute hardest. The bacteria from the
store should help the tank cycle much faster, and soon you'll have a
tank that nurtures fish rather than kills them.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the great advice.

I lost another neon last night... He got stuck on the filter and I
guess was unable to get out of it... It didn't get sucked in like the
first one, he just got stuck to the tube. :(

Man this is hard...

On the bright side, it seems that one of the platties is pregnant...
she is very large and spends her time hidding only showing up when
theres food :)

What should I do with her?

[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I don't plan on adding more fish at this time anyway... I've been
> replacing 30% of the water everyday.
> The tests I usually do it after the water change.
> I just hope not to lose another fish...
>
Do the tests before the water change not after. Doing them after will give
you false readings of what is going on.

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Thanks for the great advice.
>
> I lost another neon last night... He got stuck on the filter and I
> guess was unable to get out of it... It didn't get sucked in like the
> first one, he just got stuck to the tube. :(
>
> Man this is hard...
>
> On the bright side, it seems that one of the platties is pregnant...
> she is very large and spends her time hidding only showing up when
> theres food :)
>
> What should I do with her?
>
She'll give birth and probably be OK. I say probably because I've found
that giving birth can be stressful to livebearers and she's already
under some stress. In an older tank, there would be no worries about
her at all. Don't try to raise babies yet. They will not grow well
with ammonia and/or nitrites present and may be stunted. The gourami
and other platy will eat what babies they can find.

As for the neons and the filter, they're probably sick and weakened when
they get stuck. First, try turning down the flow. If that doesn't
work, you can buy a block of sponge (Aquaclear sponges work well), cut a
hole out, and stick it on the power filter tube. That will slow the
flow a bit and keep fish from getting stuck. Rinse it frequently
because it will become a prefilter and accumulate gunk.

Once you have a tank of healthy fish, they should have no problem
avoiding the filter if it's the right size for the tank. You should
really only need a sponge on a properly sized filter for very small
juveniles or sick fish.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[spiral_72]

I had that problem once... I wrapped a piece of screen wire in a ball
shape around the intake and tied it around the tube with a wire tie.
This totally eliminated fish getting sucked to the intake.

[Richard Sexton]

In article >,
anemone > wrote:
>dont change that much water every day!!!! You're stressing your fish out!!!

Seven exclamation marks does not make this true. It's utter nonsense.

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