Question about PH ch ch ch changes...

[Angrie.Woman]

In another thread that I didn't want to hijack, Elaine wrote:

"I learned from the fish store owner where I worked (he had 30 years
aquarium experience and wrote articles
for TFH) that just about any fish does fine at any pH between 6 and 8 as
long as the pH stays stable. Fish HATE pH swings and the best way to do
that is to start messing with your water chemistry."

Does that mean I can't add driftwood to an established tank, or is the
change too subtle?

Also, doesn't changing the substrate also change it? I'm still pondering the
least expensive way to get some green plants in there.

A
--
http://snipurl.com/cz4a : Submit a Google Request
"Default quoting of previous message in replies."

[Gill Passman]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
om...
> In another thread that I didn't want to hijack, Elaine wrote:
>
> "I learned from the fish store owner where I worked (he had 30 years
> aquarium experience and wrote articles
> for TFH) that just about any fish does fine at any pH between 6 and 8 as
> long as the pH stays stable. Fish HATE pH swings and the best way to do
> that is to start messing with your water chemistry."
>
> Does that mean I can't add driftwood to an established tank, or is the
> change too subtle?
>
> Also, doesn't changing the substrate also change it? I'm still pondering
the
> least expensive way to get some green plants in there.
>
> A
> --
> http://snipurl.com/cz4a : Submit a Google Request
> "Default quoting of previous message in replies."
>
>
I would have thought, and others can correct me, that the driftwood leeches
gradually into the water so any pH change would be gradual....

With the substrate I would have thought it would depend what substrate you
use.

[NetMax]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
om...
> In another thread that I didn't want to hijack, Elaine wrote:
>
> "I learned from the fish store owner where I worked (he had 30 years
> aquarium experience and wrote articles
> for TFH) that just about any fish does fine at any pH between 6 and 8
> as long as the pH stays stable. Fish HATE pH swings and the best way
> to do that is to start messing with your water chemistry."
>
> Does that mean I can't add driftwood to an established tank, or is the
> change too subtle?
>
> Also, doesn't changing the substrate also change it? I'm still
> pondering the least expensive way to get some green plants in there.
>
> A


Minerals (gravel, rocks, chips) and organic matter (peat, terbang, oak
and various driftwood types) are often used to change the pH. If
placed into the tank, their effect is often much more subtle and gentle
on the fish. Depending on your objective VS your current water
parameters, their effects may or may not be sufficient, so then you
adjust the effect by increasing the quantity (matter/water ratio),
decreasing water changes (typically with a decrease in fishload) or
pre-filter the change water (ie: filtering water through peat, dolomite
etc).

The nice thing about natural pH adjusters like this, is that often their
effect tends to adjust itself to your water (ie: the more acidic your
water, the more quickly coral will dissolve into it, dissolving minerals
which add to your kH, gH and increasing your pH. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:

> "Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>In another thread that I didn't want to hijack, Elaine wrote:
>>
>>"I learned from the fish store owner where I worked (he had 30 years
>>aquarium experience and wrote articles
>>for TFH) that just about any fish does fine at any pH between 6 and 8 as
>>long as the pH stays stable. Fish HATE pH swings and the best way to do
>>that is to start messing with your water chemistry."
>>
>>Does that mean I can't add driftwood to an established tank, or is the
>>change too subtle?
>>
>>Also, doesn't changing the substrate also change it? I'm still pondering
>
> the
>
>>least expensive way to get some green plants in there.
>>
>>A
>>--
>>http://snipurl.com/cz4a : Submit a Google Request
>>"Default quoting of previous message in replies."
>>
>>
>
> I would have thought, and others can correct me, that the driftwood leeches
> gradually into the water so any pH change would be gradual....
>
> With the substrate I would have thought it would depend what substrate you
> use.


I didn't even notice the slightest pH dip when I chucked in three large
pieces into my 75g aquarium. I'd think the effect was negligible.

Nikki

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>In another thread that I didn't want to hijack, Elaine wrote:
>>
>>"I learned from the fish store owner where I worked (he had 30 years
>>aquarium experience and wrote articles
>>for TFH) that just about any fish does fine at any pH between 6 and 8
>>as long as the pH stays stable. Fish HATE pH swings and the best way
>>to do that is to start messing with your water chemistry."
>>
>>Does that mean I can't add driftwood to an established tank, or is the
>>change too subtle?
>>
>>Also, doesn't changing the substrate also change it? I'm still
>>pondering the least expensive way to get some green plants in there.
>>
>>A
>
>
>
> Minerals (gravel, rocks, chips) and organic matter (peat, terbang, oak
> and various driftwood types) are often used to change the pH. If
> placed into the tank, their effect is often much more subtle and gentle
> on the fish. Depending on your objective VS your current water
> parameters, their effects may or may not be sufficient, so then you
> adjust the effect by increasing the quantity (matter/water ratio),
> decreasing water changes (typically with a decrease in fishload) or
> pre-filter the change water (ie: filtering water through peat, dolomite
> etc).
>
> The nice thing about natural pH adjusters like this, is that often their
> effect tends to adjust itself to your water (ie: the more acidic your
> water, the more quickly coral will dissolve into it, dissolving minerals
> which add to your kH, gH and increasing your pH. hth


As for substrate, if you have a substrate that doesn't affect pH, and
you change to a second substrate that doesn't affect pH, there will be
minimal impact. If your stubstrate is very dirty and leaching organics
into the tank, the pH may rise some. This is a good thing if your
substrate was that dirty and not planted!

Examples of pH neutral substrates are coated aquarium gravel, glass or
plastic marbles or decorating pebbles, rock or sand that doesn't fizz
when tested with acid, Fluorite, Eco Complete, and Onyx. Most lava
rock, tuffa, obsidian, sandstone, slate, shale, and clay does not change
pH. For acid testing, Oz says vinegar is not strong enough but pH Down
does the trick nicely.

Examples of pH changers are aragonite, crushed coral, substrates
designed for African rift lake cichlids, and rocks or sand that DO fizz
when tested with acid. pH changing rocks that come to mind are
limestone, marble, and some granites. I'm sure there are more.

Out of curiosity, why are you changing your substrate? Plants are
pretty flexible as to what they need to grow and you may be fine with
just laterite tablets under root feeding plants like Crypts, swords, and
Aponogetons.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[Angrie.Woman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...

>
> Out of curiosity, why are you changing your substrate? Plants are pretty
> flexible as to what they need to grow and you may be fine with just
> laterite tablets under root feeding plants like Crypts, swords, and
> Aponogetons.

Right now I have natural colored stones, out of a bag from the pet store.
Not sure of they're coated or not though. But from what I read, plants don't
root very well in gravel.

I am not planning on changing it all though. I'm probably going to keep the
plants in the little pots, and just put some clay in the pots.

A

[Ozdude]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
. com...

> Right now I have natural colored stones, out of a bag from the pet store.
> Not sure of they're coated or not though. But from what I read, plants
> don't root very well in gravel.

Not quite true ;) It's not that they won't root in gravel - it's the size of
the gravel particles. Large gravel is a problem (over 4mm).

I use two gravels in my tanks - a lower one which is 1-3 mm in particle size
and a thinner upper layer which is 3-5mm. All of my plants that are in the
substrate have great bundles of healthy white roots whithin a very short
time of getting them. So much so I can't now uproot some of them ;)

I must add that a substrate fertilizer is essential - best in the form of
JBL (or similar) clay slow release balls. This fert. is so good I hardly
need to put any liquid daily's or weekly's in.

I have another (experimental) substrate in the other tank which is river
sand and gravel mixed together and with no fertilizer other than the
occasional liquid dosage. There is a Hygrophila polysperma in there and it's
growing, albeit quite slowly. It's mainly there so the BATs have something
to nibble on, as it grows out of control in the other tank - so do the
Ambula, Stricta and the moneywort type thinggy (I can never remember it's
name).

>
> I am not planning on changing it all though. I'm probably going to keep
> the plants in the little pots, and just put some clay in the pots.

I have some of my plants in clay kitty litter pots and they are doing okay
but I find they are prone to stem and root rot in comparison to the
substrate planted species.

I think the clay might be breaking down into mush, harbouring bacteria and
algae, and causing stem and root rot on some of the less robust plants due
to anaerobic conditions. I must take them all out soon and get them into the
substrate where I know they will form healthy white root balls.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Angrie.Woman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
>
> I have some of my plants in clay kitty litter pots and they are doing okay
> but I find they are prone to stem and root rot in comparison to the
> substrate planted species.
>
> I think the clay might be breaking down into mush, harbouring bacteria and
> algae, and causing stem and root rot on some of the less robust plants due
> to anaerobic conditions. I must take them all out soon and get them into
> the substrate where I know they will form healthy white root balls.

I wasn't going to use clay pots. I was going to use the slotted plastic pot
the plant comes in. Take out the cotton stuff, put in some clay or laterite
or something, crack the edges so the plant can grow out of it (I wish....)
and stick it in the rocks.

A

[Ozdude]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> u...
>>
>>
>> I have some of my plants in clay kitty litter pots and they are doing
>> okay but I find they are prone to stem and root rot in comparison to the
>> substrate planted species.
>>
>> I think the clay might be breaking down into mush, harbouring bacteria
>> and algae, and causing stem and root rot on some of the less robust
>> plants due to anaerobic conditions. I must take them all out soon and get
>> them into the substrate where I know they will form healthy white root
>> balls.
>
> I wasn't going to use clay pots. I was going to use the slotted plastic
> pot the plant comes in. Take out the cotton stuff, put in some clay or
> laterite or something, crack the edges so the plant can grow out of it (I
> wish....) and stick it in the rocks.

Either way, I'd still be putting a fertilizer tab under each plants root
ball. You can make a circular hole in your current substrate too, put in a
fertilizer ball, cover with fine gravel, plant your plant and then top up
with your normal gravel and you'll never know it's there ;) This way the
fertilizer nutrients will leech along the bottom of the tank, providing
fertilization for anything in the substrate.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Angrie.Woman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> Either way, I'd still be putting a fertilizer tab under each plants root
> ball. You can make a circular hole in your current substrate too, put in a
> fertilizer ball, cover with fine gravel, plant your plant and then top up
> with your normal gravel and you'll never know it's there ;) This way the
> fertilizer nutrients will leech along the bottom of the tank, providing
> fertilization for anything in the substrate.

I do basically the same thing for my outdoor plants. How long do the
fertilizer tabs last?

A

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> NetMax wrote:
>> "Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>
>>>In another thread that I didn't want to hijack, Elaine wrote:
>>>
>>>"I learned from the fish store owner where I worked (he had 30 years
>>>aquarium experience and wrote articles
>>>for TFH) that just about any fish does fine at any pH between 6 and 8
>>>as long as the pH stays stable. Fish HATE pH swings and the best way
>>>to do that is to start messing with your water chemistry."
>>>
>>>Does that mean I can't add driftwood to an established tank, or is the
>>>change too subtle?
>>>
>>>Also, doesn't changing the substrate also change it? I'm still
>>>pondering the least expensive way to get some green plants in there.
>>>
>>>A
>>
>>
>>
>> Minerals (gravel, rocks, chips) and organic matter (peat, terbang, oak
>> and various driftwood types) are often used to change the pH. If
>> placed into the tank, their effect is often much more subtle and
>> gentle on the fish. Depending on your objective VS your current water
>> parameters, their effects may or may not be sufficient, so then you
>> adjust the effect by increasing the quantity (matter/water ratio),
>> decreasing water changes (typically with a decrease in fishload) or
>> pre-filter the change water (ie: filtering water through peat,
>> dolomite etc).
>>
>> The nice thing about natural pH adjusters like this, is that often
>> their effect tends to adjust itself to your water (ie: the more acidic
>> your water, the more quickly coral will dissolve into it, dissolving
>> minerals which add to your kH, gH and increasing your pH. hth
>
>
> As for substrate, if you have a substrate that doesn't affect pH, and
> you change to a second substrate that doesn't affect pH, there will be
> minimal impact. If your stubstrate is very dirty and leaching organics
> into the tank, the pH may rise some. This is a good thing if your
> substrate was that dirty and not planted!
>
> Examples of pH neutral substrates are coated aquarium gravel, glass or
> plastic marbles or decorating pebbles, rock or sand that doesn't fizz
> when tested with acid, Fluorite, Eco Complete, and Onyx. Most lava
> rock, tuffa, obsidian, sandstone, slate, shale, and clay does not
> change pH. For acid testing, Oz says vinegar is not strong enough but
> pH Down does the trick nicely.
>
> Examples of pH changers are aragonite, crushed coral, substrates
> designed for African rift lake cichlids, and rocks or sand that DO fizz
> when tested with acid. pH changing rocks that come to mind are
> limestone, marble, and some granites. I'm sure there are more.
>
> Out of curiosity, why are you changing your substrate? Plants are
> pretty flexible as to what they need to grow and you may be fine with
> just laterite tablets under root feeding plants like Crypts, swords,
> and Aponogetons.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><


I had a geologist explain that there is sometimes some unpredictability
in how rocks react, as they are composed of various minerals.
Fortunately, it's in the minority of cases so your description holds
true, but I do have some red feldspar sandstone which seems to level off
at 7.4pH. It hardens sof****er, but not hardwater. Just fyi for
interest :o).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Ozdude]

"Angrie.Woman" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Ozdude" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>
>>
>> Either way, I'd still be putting a fertilizer tab under each plants root
>> ball. You can make a circular hole in your current substrate too, put in
>> a fertilizer ball, cover with fine gravel, plant your plant and then top
>> up with your normal gravel and you'll never know it's there ;) This way
>> the fertilizer nutrients will leech along the bottom of the tank,
>> providing fertilization for anything in the substrate.
>
> I do basically the same thing for my outdoor plants. How long do the
> fertilizer tabs last?

The ones I use (JBL - Germany) last 12 months. They disintegrate over this
time period. They are the longest lasting I have come across in Oz. They
sell "Dino-Dung" locally made, but it only lasts 6 months in potency and
structure.

I think the average ball lasts about 6 to 8 months - Seachem etc...

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
>>
>>As for substrate, if you have a substrate that doesn't affect pH, and
>>you change to a second substrate that doesn't affect pH, there will be
>>minimal impact. If your stubstrate is very dirty and leaching organics
>>into the tank, the pH may rise some. This is a good thing if your
>>substrate was that dirty and not planted!
>>
>>Examples of pH neutral substrates are coated aquarium gravel, glass or
>>plastic marbles or decorating pebbles, rock or sand that doesn't fizz
>>when tested with acid, Fluorite, Eco Complete, and Onyx. Most lava
>>rock, tuffa, obsidian, sandstone, slate, shale, and clay does not
>>change pH. For acid testing, Oz says vinegar is not strong enough but
>>pH Down does the trick nicely.
>>
>>Examples of pH changers are aragonite, crushed coral, substrates
>>designed for African rift lake cichlids, and rocks or sand that DO fizz
>>when tested with acid. pH changing rocks that come to mind are
>>limestone, marble, and some granites. I'm sure there are more.
>>
>>Out of curiosity, why are you changing your substrate? Plants are
>>pretty flexible as to what they need to grow and you may be fine with
>>just laterite tablets under root feeding plants like Crypts, swords,
>>and Aponogetons.
>>
>>--
>> __ Elaine T __
>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>
>
>
> I had a geologist explain that there is sometimes some unpredictability
> in how rocks react, as they are composed of various minerals.
> Fortunately, it's in the minority of cases so your description holds
> true, but I do have some red feldspar sandstone which seems to level off
> at 7.4pH. It hardens sof****er, but not hardwater. Just fyi for
> interest :o).

I haven't run across a pH changing sandstone before - sounds like an
attractive mineral. That is why I said most with the minerals. I've
run across both pH changing and non-changing granites, and had what I
thought was marble not change my tank pH.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><