Broken Heater in Tank---Be Careful !!!!!!!! [Archive]

blank

March 25th 05, 08:37 AM

While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water splashed
onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I didnt
get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of current
leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.

But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be careful
folks.

Dave S

March 25th 05, 09:25 AM

Dick

March 25th 05, 10:41 AM

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:37:42 +1100, "blank" > wrote:

>While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
>heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
>when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water splashed
>onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I didnt
>get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
>here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of current
>leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.
>
>But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be careful
>folks.
>

Electricity looks for a return path. If the heater went on, it would
have a return path through the heater element. However, the "tingle"
you felt says you were supplying a return path, but not a good one.
The fish were safe so long as they did not become "grounded" and
become a path. Had you touched one of the fish, it would become part
of your path. Apparently you had shoes on which made the path a
higher resistence to the electric flow. One of the early learned
lessons when working with electricity is keep one hand behind your
back. It is so easy to touch a high voltage and not feel anything
until your other hand touches something which is a return path.

You were lucky.

dick

Gfishery

March 25th 05, 07:35 PM

"blank" > wrote in message
...
> While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
> heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
> when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water
splashed
> onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I
didnt
> get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
> here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of
current
> leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.
>
> But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be
careful
> folks.

I'm surprised the design of the heater didn't include more protective
measures, given the fact that it is under water.
Sending 110V (240V in some places) into water, shielded only by some easily
breakable glass? How did the manufacturer get this piece of equipment
approved/listed for home use?

I'd imagine a 3-prong (grounded) device that is hooked up to a GFCI outlet
would be better, so that any detected leakage will shut the device off.
Or some kind of step-down that would only allow a milder (non-lethal)
current into the water.
Or plug these devices into a power strip that has a fuse/circuit-breaker.

Has anyone had the misfortune of dropping their tank hood with incandescent
lighting turned on into their tank?

blank

March 25th 05, 07:55 PM

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
>

> I'm surprised the design of the heater didn't include more protective
> measures, given the fact that it is under water.
> Sending 110V (240V in some places) into water, shielded only by some
easily
> breakable glass? How did the manufacturer get this piece of equipment
> approved/listed for home use?
>
> I'd imagine a 3-prong (grounded) device that is hooked up to a GFCI outlet
> would be better, so that any detected leakage will shut the device off.
> Or some kind of step-down that would only allow a milder (non-lethal)
> current into the water.
> Or plug these devices into a power strip that has a fuse/circuit-breaker.

That's a good idea--I will buy one of those power board thingos today.
Getting 240v doesnt appeal to me at all.

Dan White

March 26th 05, 04:21 AM

"blank" > wrote in message
...
> While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
> heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
> when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water
splashed
> onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I
didnt
> get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
> here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of
current
> leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.
>
> But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be
careful
> folks.
>

I don't understand this. It seems to me that if water filled the heater, it
would short out and your breaker or fuse would pop. If the voltage is being
stepped way down, then maybe it wouldn't pop, but then you wouldn't get
enough jolt to be electrocuted. Given that a toaster works about the same
way as a heater, I suppose it is at full voltage, though.

dwhite

[email protected]

March 26th 05, 05:29 AM

Dude - just use a gfci like gfishery says. You can get a gfci
construction grade at the local department store here in the states for
a well earned $30.00. I myself went to the local hardware store and
bought a gfci meant for wall installation and a 3 prong grounded
electrical cord (heavy duty) and some other parts and made my own gfci
(I have electronics experience) and have all of my tanks' equipment
plugged into them. I suspect they have saved me from shock and/or death
because I accidentally overfilled my bedroom tank and there was water
over everything on that table (except the gfci because I elevated it
for just that kind of occurrence and the wall cord wasn't in the water
either) and I reached in the tank and removed the python no spill clean
and fill. I also grounded the water of that tank with a product called
"shock guard" which is just a fish friendly wire to the ground prong of
an electrical outlet. I never felt anything and the gfci didn't trip so
actually that ground wire might have been the difference maker here.
Interesting thing is I did not feel anything (as expected) and the gfci
didn't trip and the circuit breaker never tripped and I let everything
dry out before doing anything major with that tank (opened a window to
dissipate the humidity for a day or 2). My gfci tripped on another
occasion with the same tank when water dripped onto a power strip and I
think I touched the water. Ground wires are getting hi tech now made
out of titanium so it doesn't rust and it comes with a plug-inable plug
instead of you having to screw it onto a wall outlet plate, etc.. My
friend is a genius but I think he is wrong saying what happened to you
is the worst that can happen because he says the circuit breaker would
go off before you would have been electrocuted but my electronics
experience as a hobby tells me otherwise and that is why I have gfcis
connected to all of my equipment (power strips plugged into one gfci
outlet for the 2 55 gallon tanks and power strips plugged into one gfci
outlet in my bedroom - major peace of mind. I never sweat it when it
comes to electricity and water with these set ups and have not had any
problems since. Before gfcis became cheap enough for me to buy I was
always worried I'd be electrocuted or vegetiblized.

Summary - Get peace of mind by properly using a gfci - well worth the
price to be at ease with your aquarium setups and not be afraid to
reach in. Later!

[email protected]

March 26th 05, 05:52 AM

By the way - I have been piecing together some things I have heard and
read which I wonder if someone here can clarify on it. It appears to be
common for the submersible heaters for sale since the early days of
submersible heaters to get water in them from osmosis/diffusion (ie the
seals can't keep water out on a long term basis no matter how good they
are and only the future promises to end that with nanotechnology making
an atomically sealed seal) over a long period of time and if the heater
is moved even just a little while it is off the cooled down water can
cause a thermal fracture of the glass. Unless the glass breaks or there
is a major problem like a kid taking the submersible heater apart and
putting it back together (in almost any way) and putting it back in the
water, then the seal at the very least keeps the electricity separate
from the aquarium water thus eliminating the possibility of
electrocution and keeping the equipment safe to use. I seem to have
read somewhere that submersible heaters last long enough for most
situations that hang on tank heaters just plain are almost entirely
obsolete and it is normal to ignore the water in the submersible
heater(s). Submersible heaters are meant to be used not kept pristine,
so if you see water in your submersible heater don't worry about it
unless you don't have a gfci and there's a crack in the glass. I've got
some water in my submersible ebo jager heater in my bedroom and it's
been underwater for about a year and a half. I have backup in the form
of shock guard and a gfci for that tank as well so I am not worried at
all. My lfs says they used to sell these ebo jagers and that they are
still using a lot of them in there tanks and at the very least he also
said most if not all have some water in them and like I just said they
still use them just like the day they bought them except to try and
prevent a thermal fracture. Later all!

Charles

March 26th 05, 05:56 AM

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:35:30 -0800, "Gfishery" >
wrote:

>
>"blank" > wrote in message
...
>> While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
>> heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
>> when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water
>splashed
>> onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I
>didnt
>> get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
>> here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of
>current
>> leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.
>>
>> But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be
>careful
>> folks.
>
>I'm surprised the design of the heater didn't include more protective
>measures, given the fact that it is under water.
>Sending 110V (240V in some places) into water, shielded only by some easily
>breakable glass? How did the manufacturer get this piece of equipment
>approved/listed for home use?
>
>I'd imagine a 3-prong (grounded) device that is hooked up to a GFCI outlet
>would be better, so that any detected leakage will shut the device off.
>Or some kind of step-down that would only allow a milder (non-lethal)
>current into the water.
>Or plug these devices into a power strip that has a fuse/circuit-breaker.
>
>Has anyone had the misfortune of dropping their tank hood with incandescent
>lighting turned on into their tank?
>

Not incandescent, but fluorescent. It ruined the ballast.

I had a fixture for a while where the fluorescent tube would fall out
into the tank. End caps sealed it well. that really lights up a
tank.

In keeping with the thread, I had a heater break. It was bad for a
few days, I kept reaching into the tank to mess with a power head,
leaning my arm on a grounded shop light hood. I felt a tingle and
thought the power head was bad. Finally I noticed the heater had
broken, so I fixed that.

I don't recommend either of these experiences, but neither was
traumatic for me.

--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

Dick

March 26th 05, 11:02 AM

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:21:32 -0500, "Dan White"
> wrote:

>"blank" > wrote in message
...
>> While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
>> heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
>> when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water
>splashed
>> onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I
>didnt
>> get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
>> here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of
>current
>> leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.
>>
>> But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be
>careful
>> folks.
>>
>
>I don't understand this. It seems to me that if water filled the heater, it
>would short out and your breaker or fuse would pop. If the voltage is being
>stepped way down, then maybe it wouldn't pop, but then you wouldn't get
>enough jolt to be electrocuted. Given that a toaster works about the same
>way as a heater, I suppose it is at full voltage, though.
>
>dwhite
>
Fresh water is a poor conductor. However, your arm surface is full of
conductive stuff which mixed with water makes a conductive solution.
Still resistive enough to not trip a circuit breaker. However a
"Ground Fault Circuit" would probably trip since tank water is not
pure. I have a couple of heaters with 3 prongs and would work with a
GFCI, but they have metal tubes instead of glass, so are pretty safe
and are water tight.

dick

Dick

March 26th 05, 11:07 AM

On 25 Mar 2005 21:29:20 -0800, wrote:

>Dude - just use a gfci like gfishery says. You can get a gfci
>construction grade at the local department store here in the states for
>a well earned $30.00. I myself went to the local hardware store and
>bought a gfci meant for wall installation and a 3 prong grounded
>electrical cord (heavy duty) and some other parts and made my own gfci
>(I have electronics experience) and have all of my tanks' equipment
>plugged into them. I suspect they have saved me from shock and/or death
>because I accidentally overfilled my bedroom tank and there was water
>over everything on that table (except the gfci because I elevated it
>for just that kind of occurrence and the wall cord wasn't in the water
>either) and I reached in the tank and removed the python no spill clean
>and fill. I also grounded the water of that tank with a product called
>"shock guard" which is just a fish friendly wire to the ground prong of
>an electrical outlet. I never felt anything and the gfci didn't trip so
>actually that ground wire might have been the difference maker here.
>Interesting thing is I did not feel anything (as expected) and the gfci
>didn't trip and the circuit breaker never tripped and I let everything
>dry out before doing anything major with that tank (opened a window to
>dissipate the humidity for a day or 2). My gfci tripped on another
>occasion with the same tank when water dripped onto a power strip and I
>think I touched the water. Ground wires are getting hi tech now made
>out of titanium so it doesn't rust and it comes with a plug-inable plug
>instead of you having to screw it onto a wall outlet plate, etc.. My
>friend is a genius but I think he is wrong saying what happened to you
>is the worst that can happen because he says the circuit breaker would
>go off before you would have been electrocuted but my electronics
>experience as a hobby tells me otherwise and that is why I have gfcis
>connected to all of my equipment (power strips plugged into one gfci
>outlet for the 2 55 gallon tanks and power strips plugged into one gfci
>outlet in my bedroom - major peace of mind. I never sweat it when it
>comes to electricity and water with these set ups and have not had any
>problems since. Before gfcis became cheap enough for me to buy I was
>always worried I'd be electrocuted or vegetiblized.
>
>Summary - Get peace of mind by properly using a gfci - well worth the
>price to be at ease with your aquarium setups and not be afraid to
>reach in. Later!

One caution, GFCIs work only with 3 prong plugs. They need the 3rd
prong as a ground return. They provide no protection on 2 prong
plugs. A ground wire could be added, but not something everyone can
do.

dick

dick

Dan White

March 26th 05, 01:28 PM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:21:32 -0500, "Dan White"
> > wrote:

> >I don't understand this. It seems to me that if water filled the heater,
it
> >would short out and your breaker or fuse would pop. If the voltage is
being
> >stepped way down, then maybe it wouldn't pop, but then you wouldn't get
> >enough jolt to be electrocuted. Given that a toaster works about the
same
> >way as a heater, I suppose it is at full voltage, though.
> >
> >dwhite
> >
> Fresh water is a poor conductor.

Hmm, I'm not sure I buy that. Tank water is "relatively" loaded with
electrolytes. Even plain tap water, unless you are using reverse osmosis
water, has plenty of conductivity. I mean, glass is a poor conductor, but
regular water? My point is that if something is going to zap you, like
dropping a toaster in the water, it is going to zap you regardless of
regular tap water or salt water. I think you are fried either way. I don't
know why tank heaters don't do the same thing, but I'm pretty sure it isn't
because the water is acting as an insulator.

thanks,
dwhite

> However, your arm surface is full of
> conductive stuff which mixed with water makes a conductive solution.
> Still resistive enough to not trip a circuit breaker. However a
> "Ground Fault Circuit" would probably trip since tank water is not
> pure. I have a couple of heaters with 3 prongs and would work with a
> GFCI, but they have metal tubes instead of glass, so are pretty safe
> and are water tight.

Samuel Warren

March 26th 05, 01:31 PM

I have a simple solution, I was always turn off my Power Strip before
touching the water.

This message was written on 100% recycled spam. SAM >>

"blank" > wrote in message
...
> While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
> heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
> when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water
splashed
> onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I
didnt
> get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
> here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of
current
> leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.
>
> But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be
careful
> folks.
>
>

Angrie.Woman

March 26th 05, 02:08 PM

"Dan White" > wrote in message
...
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:21:32 -0500, "Dan White"
>> > wrote:
>
>> >I don't understand this. It seems to me that if water filled the
>> >heater,
> it
>> >would short out and your breaker or fuse would pop. If the voltage is
> being
>> >stepped way down, then maybe it wouldn't pop, but then you wouldn't get
>> >enough jolt to be electrocuted. Given that a toaster works about the
> same
>> >way as a heater, I suppose it is at full voltage, though.
>> >
>> >dwhite
>> >
>> Fresh water is a poor conductor.
>
> Hmm, I'm not sure I buy that. Tank water is "relatively" loaded with
> electrolytes. Even plain tap water, unless you are using reverse osmosis
> water, has plenty of conductivity. I mean, glass is a poor conductor, but
> regular water?

Distilled water is not a conductor. Tap water conducts just fine.

A

pausto

March 27th 05, 12:25 AM

Dick wrote:
>
> One caution, GFCIs work only with 3 prong plugs. They need the 3rd
> prong as a ground return. They provide no protection on 2 prong
> plugs. A ground wire could be added, but not something everyone can
> do.
>
> dick

I humbly disagree. GFCI's don't monitor ground. GFCI's monitor
hot and neutral. Any current that goes out on the hot wire is
compared to, must be equal to the current that comes back on the
neutral wire. If the two aren't absolutely equal, electrons are
leaking to a ground somewhere, and it does not have to be via the
ground prong of the 3 prong plug. The GFCI will trip, if it's
functional.
A Caution, GFCI's contain micro circuitry that can be damaged
by line spikes, lightning or static electricity. GFCI's have a
test button, and should be tested often.

No, I don't have GFCI's in my fish room. I bought 6 of them,
but they're still in the bag. :-|

Paul

Ozdude

March 27th 05, 05:26 AM

"blank" > wrote in message
...

> That's a good idea--I will buy one of those power board thingos today.
> Getting 240v doesnt appeal to me at all.

That's all we've got here in Oz and in the UK - it's a 240V 10A zap if
something like this happens. In a tank as long as you don't complete the
circuit by taking the water column to ground, then the fish and yourself
should be okay. If you are wet bare footed though I can't say that there
would be more than a frazzled and fried human on the floor and lots of
floating dead fish ;)

Count your lucky stars my friend. I have a GFP switch on my total house
electrics and it tripped just recently in the middle of the night because a
power-head went to fault - it saved my life and the tank - well worth the
investment if you are dealing with water and AC multi amp electricity IMO.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude

March 27th 05, 05:32 AM

"Dan White" > wrote in message
...

> Hmm, I'm not sure I buy that. Tank water is "relatively" loaded with
> electrolytes. Even plain tap water, unless you are using reverse osmosis
> water, has plenty of conductivity. I mean, glass is a poor conductor, but
> regular water? My point is that if something is going to zap you, like
> dropping a toaster in the water, it is going to zap you regardless of
> regular tap water or salt water. I think you are fried either way. I
> don't
> know why tank heaters don't do the same thing, but I'm pretty sure it
> isn't
> because the water is acting as an insulator.

If the water was saline and you grounded that it would conduct very well.

I'd say the circuit breakers don't go on a fault like this because of what
Dick has said, which is that fresh water is a poor conductor at best, but
that's not to say that if you complete the open circuit by grounding to
earth you aren't going to have an event on your hands. More likely than not
imo. The guy was lucky he wasn't grounded.

You get these tingles sometimes on antenna connectors on TV's and VCR's
too - the same thing - ungrounded open circuits - if you install a GFP (well
worth the investment IMO) you don't have to worry as much, but even so, it's
always excellent policy to unplug heaters when tank servicing, at a minimum.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude

March 27th 05, 05:37 AM

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> One caution, GFCIs work only with 3 prong plugs. They need the 3rd
> prong as a ground return. They provide no protection on 2 prong
> plugs. A ground wire could be added, but not something everyone can
> do.

My tank doesn't have a ground wire, and it's something I've thought about
(and should be) doing but my power-head that tripped the GFI a few months
ago did trip it and it only has active and return (no earth - double
insulated) - the power board it's plugged into has surge protection on it,
so I'm wondering if the ground on that may have done the business?

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude

March 27th 05, 05:39 AM

[email protected]

March 27th 05, 06:43 AM

It is a good idea to test often but thanks for backing me up on this.
Lightning is concern enough to test often. Electronics seem to be
getting better about preventing surges and spikes - just use common
sense and don't connect aquarium devices to circuits used by
refrigerators, ovens, washing machines, dryers, etc. if you can help
it. I simply feel with gfcis people shouldn't be afraid to do things
with there tanks (aquarium hobby), and that they should be able to
reach into the water without fear to do things with their tanks.

By the way - it takes very little current to stop a heart, I read
something about this in electronics class over a decade ago. Voltage
isn't what determines whether a heart stops - ultimately it's the
current passing through the heart. Seems like it was micro or millamps
as far as the requirement. GFCIs are a great investment and I feel
safer than ever. Lightning knocks out telephone modems a lot here
during thunderstorms usually around spring/summer. It's great that
gfci's have test/reset buttons. Later!

Richard Blincoe

March 27th 05, 07:31 AM

"pausto" > wrote in message
...
> Dick wrote:
> >
> > One caution, GFCIs work only with 3 prong plugs. They need the 3rd
> > prong as a ground return. They provide no protection on 2 prong
> > plugs. A ground wire could be added, but not something everyone can
> > do.
> >
> > dick
>
> I humbly disagree. GFCI's don't monitor ground. GFCI's monitor
> hot and neutral. Any current that goes out on the hot wire is
> compared to, must be equal to the current that comes back on the
> neutral wire. If the two aren't absolutely equal, electrons are
> leaking to a ground somewhere, and it does not have to be via the
> ground prong of the 3 prong plug. The GFCI will trip, if it's
> functional.
> A Caution, GFCI's contain micro circuitry that can be damaged
> by line spikes, lightning or static electricity. GFCI's have a
> test button, and should be tested often.
>
> No, I don't have GFCI's in my fish room. I bought 6 of them,
> but they're still in the bag. :-|
>
> Paul

Speaking for New Zealand - Here they tend to be called "Earth Leakage
Circuit Breakers" - Paul is right - what is measured is the imbalance
between phase (hot) and neutral and they will trip when a certain leakage
current is exceeded. Here 2 types are used - 30milliamp for general use,
and 10ma for use in "sensitive" areas - particularly hospitals for use on
medical equipment. They are normally combined with an over current
function - 10-30amp.

BUT......

THEY WILL NOT SAVE YOU IF YOU MANAGE TO CONNECT YOURSELF DIRECT FROM PHASE
TO NEUTRAL!

You actually have to be earthed to trip the breaker if you touch the phase -
if you don't provide a path to earth with higher current carry than the
rating of the breaker (30ma) then the breaker will not trip. What really
saves you is the speed with which these breakers trip - to be certified in
New Zealand they have to be capable of tripping in 1/2 of a cycle - here we
are 50 cycles per second so that is tripping in less than 1/100th of a
second. The effect of a shock on the human body is a function of three
things, the voltage, the current, and the duration. 1/100th of a second is
only going to cause a person serious harm if they are particularly
susceptible, i.e. heart issues.

Cheers

Richard

Dick

March 27th 05, 11:27 AM

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:25:18 -0500, pausto > wrote:

>Dick wrote:
>>
>> One caution, GFCIs work only with 3 prong plugs. They need the 3rd
>> prong as a ground return. They provide no protection on 2 prong
>> plugs. A ground wire could be added, but not something everyone can
>> do.
>>
>> dick
>
> I humbly disagree. GFCI's don't monitor ground. GFCI's monitor
>hot and neutral. Any current that goes out on the hot wire is
>compared to, must be equal to the current that comes back on the
>neutral wire. If the two aren't absolutely equal, electrons are
>leaking to a ground somewhere, and it does not have to be via the
>ground prong of the 3 prong plug. The GFCI will trip, if it's
>functional.
> A Caution, GFCI's contain micro circuitry that can be damaged
>by line spikes, lightning or static electricity. GFCI's have a
>test button, and should be tested often.
>
> No, I don't have GFCI's in my fish room. I bought 6 of them,
>but they're still in the bag. :-|
>
>Paul

It turns out we both are right, but I have learned an interesting
point. I was not aware of the sensing of the hot to neutral flow.
I was curious so did a Google. Several sites popped up. I am going
to quote part of this one:
http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm
GFCIs and safety ground:

Despite the fact that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) may be
installed in a 2 wire circuit, the GFCI does not create a safety
ground. In fact, shorting between the Hot and Ground holes in the GFCI
outlet will do absolutely nothing if the GFCI is not connected to a
grounded circuit (at least for the typical GFCI made by Leviton sold
at hardware stores and home centers). It will trip only if a fault
occurs such that current flows to a true ground. If the original
circuit did not have a safety ground, the third hole is not connected.
What this means is that an appliance with a 3 prong plug can develop a
short between Hot and the (supposedly) grounded case but the GFCI will
not trip until someone touches the case and an earth ground (e.g.,
water pipe, ground from some other circuit, etc.) at the same time.

Note that even though this is acceptable by the NEC, I do not consider
it desirable. Your safety now depends on the proper functioning of the
GFCI which is considerable more complex and failure prone than a
simple fuse or circuit breaker. Therefore, if at all possible, provide
a proper Code compliant ground connection to all outlets feeding
appliances with 3 wire plugs."

"
Thanks Paul for improving my knowledge about these useful devices.

dick

NetMax

March 27th 05, 06:02 PM

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
>> One caution, GFCIs work only with 3 prong plugs. They need the 3rd
>> prong as a ground return. They provide no protection on 2 prong
>> plugs. A ground wire could be added, but not something everyone can
>> do.
>
> My tank doesn't have a ground wire, and it's something I've thought
> about (and should be) doing but my power-head that tripped the GFI a
> few months ago did trip it and it only has active and return (no
> earth - double insulated) - the power board it's plugged into has surge
> protection on it, so I'm wondering if the ground on that may have done
> the business?
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

I suspect that your fault caused a slight voltage in the tank and a small
amount of current found a different path to ground. This would trip the
GFI circuit.

I almost always have my tank set-ups running off of GFIs, and some have
timer relays to turn off the heater/filters while I'm doing maintenance.
The days of regularly zapping myself with aluminium and stainless steel
tanks are long behind me ;~). Many here would cringe if they saw the
aquarium electronics of 30 years ago.

In one setup using metal shop lights, I added a copper ground wire
between the fluorescent canopies and the grounded receptacle box. Not
only can it reduce transformer hum (in some cases), but it provides a big
handy source for leakage current to trip the GFI, on a tank where I'm
generally contacting this metal when I'm working in the tank.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Gfishery

March 27th 05, 10:17 PM

"blank" > wrote in message
...
> That's a good idea--I will buy one of those power board thingos today.
> Getting 240v doesnt appeal to me at all.

Not all power-strips/"power board thingos" are created equal -
Some are only designed to protect the connected equipment from power surges
or spikes.
And some don't even do that very well.
Some only perform once, and then operate in a compromised protection
capacity with no indication to the user.

What irks me is that it would have cost the manufacturer of the heater or
tank light hood only a couple of cents more to build a safer device, and
they somehow managed to get the equipment electrically certified without
doing it.

It is fairly unlikely that a toaster will fall into water.
It is fairly likely that the glass on the aquarium heater will break at some
point in time, leaking current into the water.

Even hair-dryers these days have a circuit-breaker (with TEST button) built
into the power cord.
Product-liability lawsuits filed by consumers in the USA is what keeps some
of the USA-based manufacturers under control.

Alpha

March 28th 05, 01:19 AM

There is a new line of heaters, Guradian (US), that are not glass and have
built-in saftey shut-off.

Alpha

March 28th 05, 01:22 AM

That is Guardian, of course.
http://www.pennplax.com/Pages/Aqua.pages..../Aqua28F.html

"Alpha" > wrote in message news:...
> There is a new line of heaters, Guradian (US), that are not glass and have
> built-in saftey shut-off.
>
>
>

Elaine T

March 28th 05, 01:29 AM

Charles wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:35:30 -0800, "Gfishery" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>"blank" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
>>>heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
>>>when I put my hand in the water, but thought it must be from water
>>
>>splashed
>>
>>>onto the lights. Eventually I noticed the broken heater. I suppose I
>>
>>didnt
>>
>>>get electrocuted because the heater was not actually on (the temperature
>>>here today keeping it turned off.) I guess there was just a bit of
>>
>>current
>>
>>>leakage somewhere. Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.
>>>
>>>But had the heater actually been on I suppose Id be dead now. So be
>>
>>careful
>>
>>>folks.
>>
>>I'm surprised the design of the heater didn't include more protective
>>measures, given the fact that it is under water.
>>Sending 110V (240V in some places) into water, shielded only by some easily
>>breakable glass? How did the manufacturer get this piece of equipment
>>approved/listed for home use?
>>
>>I'd imagine a 3-prong (grounded) device that is hooked up to a GFCI outlet
>>would be better, so that any detected leakage will shut the device off.
>>Or some kind of step-down that would only allow a milder (non-lethal)
>>current into the water.
>>Or plug these devices into a power strip that has a fuse/circuit-breaker.
>>
>>Has anyone had the misfortune of dropping their tank hood with incandescent
>>lighting turned on into their tank?
>>
>
>
>
> Not incandescent, but fluorescent. It ruined the ballast.
>
> I had a fixture for a while where the fluorescent tube would fall out
> into the tank. End caps sealed it well. that really lights up a
> tank.

Standing on a wet floor in the fish aisle where I worked, I reached over
one of the tanks to twist a loose fluorescent light bulb back into
position and discovered the hard way that it was not grounded properly.
Ker-zap! Do NOT get shocked by an 80W fluorescent ballast. I felt
the tingle clear up to my shoulder.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

Elaine T

March 28th 05, 01:39 AM

wrote:
> It is a good idea to test often but thanks for backing me up on this.
> Lightning is concern enough to test often. Electronics seem to be
> getting better about preventing surges and spikes - just use common
> sense and don't connect aquarium devices to circuits used by
> refrigerators, ovens, washing machines, dryers, etc. if you can help
> it. I simply feel with gfcis people shouldn't be afraid to do things
> with there tanks (aquarium hobby), and that they should be able to
> reach into the water without fear to do things with their tanks.

I still try to remember to flip the switch on the power strip off before
I reach into my tanks. :-)
>
> By the way - it takes very little current to stop a heart, I read
> something about this in electronics class over a decade ago. Voltage
> isn't what determines whether a heart stops - ultimately it's the
> current passing through the heart. Seems like it was micro or millamps
> as far as the requirement. GFCIs are a great investment and I feel
> safer than ever. Lightning knocks out telephone modems a lot here
> during thunderstorms usually around spring/summer. It's great that
> gfci's have test/reset buttons. Later!
>
I also learned in a physiology class that 60Hz alternating current is a
particularly dangerous frequency because it interferes with the heart's
pacemaker. That's why so little alternating household current can stop
a heart. Apparantly direct current is less dangerous which is why
people can sometimes survive lightning strikes and exposure to
high-amperage batteries.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

[email protected]

March 28th 05, 02:17 AM

It is interesting information about gfcis (additional information),
Thanks. Thing is thought that someone holding neutral in one hand and
hot in the other while standing on an insulator (tennis shoes) is
practically (the word here again is "practically") impossible. It would
require intent premeditation to do such and act.

Dick's comment is informative but the gfci will trip when it needs to
as designed for the safety of the person using it. The gfci doesn't
react "before" the problem occurs - it reacts "when" it occurs, fast
enough to prevent harm at least if it is working properly.

A gfci can ultimately be protected from all surge/spikes including
lightning with a lightning arrester and surge/spike protection but
practically speaking a gfci can be plugged into a surge protector for
almost as much protection as most areas don't get lightning often
enough to raise the risk factor. I have my gfci's protected with a
surge protector but realized a lightning strike could wipe me and my
possessions out but practically speaking it will never happen.

pausto

March 28th 05, 02:58 AM

Dick wrote:
>
> It turns out we both are right,

Hey, It's all good.

I do have a couple comments on the web page you quoted. We were
probably read the same page at the same time.

I would never wire a 3 prong grounding outlet without wiring
the ground hole, as was kind of half suggested as doable on their
web page. If the building system had no ground, I'd use a 2 prong
outlet. Whenever I see an outlet with a ground hole, I expect a
ground to be there. Yet, I think you and I were talking about
plugging a non grounded load into a grounding GFCI outlet. I
pretty much agree with rest of the quoted content.

And, I do agree that products that have a ground plug greatly
improves the chances of tripping the GFCI with something other
than ones body parts. And if the GFCI goes bad, having a ground
in the product will tend to trip the circuit breaker, rather than
creating a hot chassis, frame or tank, if things go wrong.

Something else; a tripped GFCI doesn't necessarily mean the
device plugged into it is bad. A plugged in device, that is ever
so slightly damp, can cause nuisance trip's. Sometimes just
really high humidity can do it. This happens in my tool shed
sometimes during the rainy months, and I have to spray dehydrator
in the light switches. I don't think this would be too big a
problem with a two wire tank heater that had a few drops of
condensate in it. A heater with a ground wire might be a problem
if there's a little moisture in there. Even there buying a GFCI
rated for use in damp locations may help.

Paul

> to quote part of this one:
> http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm
> GFCIs and safety ground:
>
> Despite the fact that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) may be
> installed in a 2 wire circuit, the GFCI does not create a safety
> ground. In fact, shorting between the Hot and Ground holes in the GFCI
> outlet will do absolutely nothing if the GFCI is not connected to a
> grounded circuit (at least for the typical GFCI made by Leviton sold
> at hardware stores and home centers). It will trip only if a fault
> occurs such that current flows to a true ground. If the original
> circuit did not have a safety ground, the third hole is not connected.
> What this means is that an appliance with a 3 prong plug can develop a
> short between Hot and the (supposedly) grounded case but the GFCI will
> not trip until someone touches the case and an earth ground (e.g.,
> water pipe, ground from some other circuit, etc.) at the same time.
>
> Note that even though this is acceptable by the NEC, I do not consider
> it desirable. Your safety now depends on the proper functioning of the
> GFCI which is considerable more complex and failure prone than a
> simple fuse or circuit breaker. Therefore, if at all possible, provide
> a proper Code compliant ground connection to all outlets feeding
> appliances with 3 wire plugs."
>
> "
> Thanks Paul for improving my knowledge about these useful devices.
>
> dick

Gfishery

March 28th 05, 04:16 AM

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...

> I felt the tingle clear up to my shoulder.

Recalling my experience getting zapped over 20 years ago:
It felt like the Incredible Hulk got a hold of my hand and gave me a very
vigorous handshake.

I'll never forget it.

blank

March 28th 05, 08:15 AM

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not all power-strips/"power board thingos" are created equal -
> Some are only designed to protect the connected equipment from power
surges
> or spikes.
> And some don't even do that very well.
> Some only perform once, and then operate in a compromised protection
> capacity with no indication to the user.

Any advice on distinguishing a good one from a bad one?

[email protected]

March 28th 05, 08:18 AM

You can make your own ground connection for your house - just use a
properly conductive stake and properly conductive wire/cable and hammer
the stake into the ground outside your house. Most apartments also
include a ground connection as per the minimum requirements to be met
for the government in most countries. Understandably some places won't
supply it. The most recommended way of finding a ground source besides
the stake method is to connect the ground wire to cold water pipes or
if you want to get a little impracticably handy you could connect the
wire to a metal water faucet. Ac outlets in the states can be tested
with a $05.00 outlet tester from radio shack, so if you want to know
for sure you can. The more appliances with ground the better. I think
heaters sold without a ground connection pass government approval
because they assume any one using one would also be using a gfci as
they're common enough in the states in kitchens and bathrooms.

It's cool, Dick.

Later!

[email protected]

March 28th 05, 08:27 AM

I remember reading in a aquarium fish magazine 12 years ago that one of
the writers was not using gfcis (yet) and a powerhead went faulty and
he got zapped and he wrote he had to restart his heart by bouncing (I
am not kidding) his chest against sharp furniture corners and succeeded
before passing out. That taught him a big lesson and he had a gfci
installed in his fish room. I don't believe this myself but I was
amazed someone would write something like that publicly, and it wasn't
even an april issue of the magazine, but given how magazines need to be
written ahead of time it might have been an april fools joke. Do
magazines really do these types of april fools jokes - yep, in my
experience especially with a computer magazine once. Later all, no more
jaw jacking for me!

[email protected]

March 28th 05, 08:31 AM

Go for a reputable one that provides a lifetime guarantee like the
tripplite or isobar surge/spike protector and remember that gfishery is
talking about surge protectors - not gfcis. Later and good luck!

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum

March 31st 05, 02:27 PM

blank wrote:

> While cleaning my main tank today I must have knocked one of the 250W
> heaters, and broke the glass without noticing it. Later I felt a tingle
> when I put my hand in the water

Old rule, switch of the electricity before puting your hand in the
water. All electrical equipment in your tank should be connected to a
power strip with switch, so that you can conveniently disconnect
everything from the grid.

> Strangely enough the fish dont seem affected.

Of course not. In case of a broken heater three outcomes are possible:

1) Water creates a short circuit between phase and neutral, and your
fuse blows.

2) Water creates a short circuit between phase and protective earth, and
your residual current device blows. (You do have an RCD in your fuse
box? If not, have one installed *ASAP*!)

3) Water gets into contact with only phase, in which case the water
takes on a potential compared to ground. Since the fishes don't touch
ground, no current flows through them, and hence they are safe. If you
now put your hands into the water, current flows from your hands through
your feet into the ground. If you have an RCD, this will blow it and
protect you, if you don't have one, you may get killed.

Remember: Voltage by itself is harmless. But a current in excess of 50
mA flowing through your body can kill you (that's why most RCDs have a
30 mA rating). You can get charged to several million Volts by static
electricity, without even noticing. But if you then touch something
grounded, you receive a shock. In this case that's harmless because the
current will stop nearly instantaneously, but if you are in contact with
the grid, current will flow until the contact is broken in some way.