goldfish and koi question

[Emily & Craig Cagle]

My 1000 gal pond of 3 years is home to only 6 goldfish and several frogs. I
am thinking of adding koi, now that I have some ponding experience. I know
koi need more room than goldfish, and my concern is that they will outgrow
my small pond. I am thinking of adding just 2 4-6 in. koi to so that they
are similar in size to the goldfish. My largest gold is about 8 in. and
smallest is 5. Any advice?

Craig

[[email protected]]

You can safely have 1" of Koi for every square foot of surface area.

We have a nice pond size calculator for figuring this out.

http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_calculator.htm

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> You can safely have 1" of Koi for every square foot of surface area.
>
> We have a nice pond size calculator for figuring this out.
>
> http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_calculator.htm

I can't believe they're still advertising that extremely antequated
calculation! You can _not_ safely have 1" of koi for every square foot.

That was a very rough rule of thumb invented for the aquarium hobby, back
when we all thought it was pretty rad to have a 30g aquarium. It works for
_small_ fish. The bio-load of a fish increase approximately eight-fold
every time you double it's length. The rule of thumb often cited here for
koi, is one koi in 1000 gallons, 100 gallons for each successive one. Not
a bad rule, as long as you don't cut it too close. 2 koi in 1000 gallons
can be tight.
--
derek

[Reel McKoi]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> That was a very rough rule of thumb invented for the aquarium hobby, back
> when we all thought it was pretty rad to have a 30g aquarium. It works
for
> _small_ fish. The bio-load of a fish increase approximately eight-fold
> every time you double it's length. The rule of thumb often cited here for
> koi, is one koi in 1000 gallons, 100 gallons for each successive one. Not
> a bad rule, as long as you don't cut it too close. 2 koi in 1000 gallons
> can be tight.
====================
My larger pond is 2000 gallons with a cheapo Tetra filter and a settling
tank/VF I don't use the UV lights anymore as they're a real pain to set up
each spring and maintain. I have a lot more than 1 koi per 1000 gallons.
Next spring I have to cull a few more out. :-( As we get down to the
better looking ones it gets harder.....
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[RichToyBox]

I agree with Derek. There is a tremendous difference between 20 - 5" koi,
10 - 10" koi, and 5 - 20" koi. The size of the pond can be rapidly
overwhelmed by the so called rules. I also don't like filters advertised by
the size of the pond, they should be advertised by the pounds of fish,
pounds of fish food, or something relevant. One koi in a 50000 gallon pond
doesn't need much of a filter, but the same fish in a 50 gallon pond, needs
a lot of filter.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> You can safely have 1" of Koi for every square foot of surface area.
>
> We have a nice pond size calculator for figuring this out.
>
> http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_calculator.htm
>

[Sean Dinh]

That calculator is too conservative. You should see my
cousin's hole in the ground. It has 8 square feet of surface
area, yet has at least 30 koi in sizes 4"-12". People keep
forgetting that we have high-tech filter and aeration, so
that surface area is almost irrelevant.

wrote:
>
> You can safely have 1" of Koi for every square foot of surface area.
>
> We have a nice pond size calculator for figuring this out.
>
> http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_calculator.htm

[Crashj]

On or about Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:06:51 -0800, Sean Dinh
> wrote something like:

>That calculator is too conservative. You should see my
>cousin's hole in the ground. It has 8 square feet of surface
>area, yet has at least 30 koi in sizes 4"-12".
wrote:
>>
>> You can safely have 1" of Koi for every square foot of surface area.
>> http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_calculator.htm

I'm sorry, but 30 fish in 2 feet by 4 feet is not a pond, it's
boulabaise.

"he's baaack"
--
Crashj

[Sean Dinh]

I said 'hole in the ground', not a pond.

Crashj wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, but 30 fish in 2 feet by 4 feet is not a pond, it's
> boulabaise.
>
> "he's baaack"
> --
> Crashj

[[email protected]]

The total gallons of pond water and the rated size of your pond filter
is what determines the amount of fish you can have in your pond. A
simple rule we use is for every 1" (inch) of fish you need 1 sq.'
(square foot) of surface area assuming you have a good filtration
system. So, if your pond is 8' x 10' that would equal 80 sq.' of
surface area for new pond installations. That equates to being able to
stock up to 80 inches of Koi (10 8" Koi) to start with. For established
ponds with lots of aquatic plants and an active bacteria colony in the
filter, you can raise that level to 2 or 3 inches of fish per 1 square
foot of surface area.

www.pondkoi.com

[Derek Broughton]

Reel McKoi wrote:

>
> "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>> That was a very rough rule of thumb invented for the aquarium hobby, back
>> when we all thought it was pretty rad to have a 30g aquarium. It works
> for
>> _small_ fish. The bio-load of a fish increase approximately eight-fold
>> every time you double it's length. The rule of thumb often cited here
>> for
>> koi, is one koi in 1000 gallons, 100 gallons for each successive one.
>> Not
>> a bad rule, as long as you don't cut it too close. 2 koi in 1000 gallons
>> can be tight.
> ====================
> My larger pond is 2000 gallons with a cheapo Tetra filter and a settling
> tank/VF I don't use the UV lights anymore as they're a real pain to set
> up
> each spring and maintain. I have a lot more than 1 koi per 1000 gallons.

That rule of thumb would allow you 11 koi, though - it's one for the first
1000, 1 for each 100 after that. It's intended for letting them grow out,
too.

> Next spring I have to cull a few more out. :-( As we get down to the
> better looking ones it gets harder.....

LOL.
--
derek

[Derek Broughton]

wrote:

> The total gallons of pond water and the rated size of your pond filter
> is what determines the amount of fish you can have in your pond. A
> simple rule we use is for every 1" (inch) of fish you need 1 sq.'
> (square foot) of surface area assuming you have a good filtration
> system. So, if your pond is 8' x 10' that would equal 80 sq.' of
> surface area for new pond installations. That equates to being able to
> stock up to 80 inches of Koi (10 8" Koi) to start with. For established
> ponds with lots of aquatic plants and an active bacteria colony in the
> filter, you can raise that level to 2 or 3 inches of fish per 1 square
> foot of surface area.

You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. It's got
NOTHING to do with "inches" of fish. It's all to do with "mass" of fish,
and the best handle you have on that, short of netting and weighing them,
is to estimate volume based on length - knowing that volume varies
proportional with the _cube_ of the length. An 80 square foot, closed
system, pond is never going to support eight 30" koi (as you suggest).
otoh, an open system - with fresh water constantly flowing through the pond
- could probably support hundreds.

I agree with Crash that Sean's pond is bouillabaisse, but Sean's right at
least that surface area is not very relevant at all.
--
derek

[Reel McKoi]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Reel McKoi wrote:
>
> >
> > "Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> wrote:
> >> That was a very rough rule of thumb invented for the aquarium hobby,
back
> >> when we all thought it was pretty rad to have a 30g aquarium. It works
> > for
> >> _small_ fish. The bio-load of a fish increase approximately eight-fold
> >> every time you double it's length. The rule of thumb often cited here
> >> for
> >> koi, is one koi in 1000 gallons, 100 gallons for each successive one.
> >> Not
> >> a bad rule, as long as you don't cut it too close. 2 koi in 1000
gallons
> >> can be tight.
> > ====================
> > My larger pond is 2000 gallons with a cheapo Tetra filter and a settling
> > tank/VF I don't use the UV lights anymore as they're a real pain to set
> > up
> > each spring and maintain. I have a lot more than 1 koi per 1000
gallons.
>
> That rule of thumb would allow you 11 koi, though - it's one for the first
> 1000, 1 for each 100 after that. It's intended for letting them grow out,
> too.

$$ Thanks Derek. We're hoping to have about that number of adult fish down
the road. The best ones of course. :-))) In the smaller pond, which is
laid out differently, perhaps about 4 adult Butterflys.

> > Next spring I have to cull a few more out. :-( As we get down to the
> > better looking ones it gets harder.....

> LOL.
> --
> derek
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>My 1000 gal pond of 3 years is home to only 6 goldfish and several frogs. I
>am thinking of adding koi, now that I have some ponding experience. I know
>koi need more room than goldfish, and my concern is that they will outgrow
>my small pond. I am thinking of adding just 2 4-6 in. koi to so that they
>are similar in size to the goldfish. My largest gold is about 8 in. and
>smallest is 5. Any advice?
>Craig

Hi Craig, I highly suggest butterfly koi.

Beware mixing goldfish and koi, if the goldfish are comets. Goldfish are
always ON when it comes to spawning, and can harass an immature koi to its
peril. Koi don't turn ON till they're 3 years an older and then, at most,
it's only a twice a year interest. ;o) ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[[email protected]]

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
> >My 1000 gal pond of 3 years is home to only 6 goldfish and several
frogs. I
> >am thinking of adding koi, now that I have some ponding experience.
I know
> >koi need more room than goldfish, and my concern is that they will
outgrow
> >my small pond. I am thinking of adding just 2 4-6 in. koi to so
that they
> >are similar in size to the goldfish. My largest gold is about 8 in.
and
> >smallest is 5. Any advice?
> >Craig
>
> Hi Craig, I highly suggest butterfly koi.
>
> Beware mixing goldfish and koi, if the goldfish are comets. Goldfish
are
> always ON when it comes to spawning, and can harass an immature koi
to its
> peril. Koi don't turn ON till they're 3 years an older and then, at
most,
> it's only a twice a year interest. ;o) ~ jan
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website


Your koi would grow to 12 inches. But it's 30 gallons to a fish koi and
goldfish for ponds. So,

1000-(30x6)-(30x2)=
760
so it's ok, just have a good filter and amolock on hand

[RichToyBox]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> ~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
>> >My 1000 gal pond of 3 years is home to only 6 goldfish and several
> frogs. I
>> >am thinking of adding koi, now that I have some ponding experience.
> I know
>> >koi need more room than goldfish, and my concern is that they will
> outgrow
>> >my small pond. I am thinking of adding just 2 4-6 in. koi to so
> that they
>> >are similar in size to the goldfish. My largest gold is about 8 in.
> and
>> >smallest is 5. Any advice?
>> >Craig
>>
>> Hi Craig, I highly suggest butterfly koi.
>>
>> Beware mixing goldfish and koi, if the goldfish are comets. Goldfish
> are
>> always ON when it comes to spawning, and can harass an immature koi
> to its
>> peril. Koi don't turn ON till they're 3 years an older and then, at
> most,
>> it's only a twice a year interest. ;o) ~ jan
>>
>>
>> See my ponds and filter design:
>> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>>
>> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>> To e-mail see website
>
>
> Your koi would grow to 12 inches. But it's 30 gallons to a fish koi and
> goldfish for ponds. So,
>
> 1000-(30x6)-(30x2)=
> 760
> so it's ok, just have a good filter and amolock on hand
>
Your koi will grow to be over 24 inches long and 100 gallons per koi is not
enough. We visited an indoor koi pond, 15000 gallons this past weekend, and
it had 15 koi, or 1000 gallons per koi. The more fish/gallon, the more
filter, and I mean a lot more filter.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>Your koi will grow to be over 24 inches long and 100 gallons per koi is not
>enough. We visited an indoor koi pond, 15000 gallons this past weekend, and
>it had 15 koi, or 1000 gallons per koi. The more fish/gallon, the more
>filter, and I mean a lot more filter. RTB

Which means, in small pond translation if I may, if you get 10 tiny koi for
a 1,000 gallon pond, you should be selling or giving away a couple koi
every year for a few years. Keeping the prettiest for yourself of course.
;-)

I started out with 20 some koi at one point, now I'm down to 3 adults in
one pond and 5 in the other, which is going to drop to 4 soon, with a few
babies. I've chosen to sell a couple of my adult koi so I can watch more of
the babies grow up a bit before they too are cull and sold/given away.
~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Tom L. La Bron]

Folks,

I am not a KOI person, but I do have ponds for my Goldfsih, and have done a
lot of reading where ponds are concerned and these books, especially the
Japanese oriented ones, always deal with KOI, and for years conventional
thought in these serious Pond book in which KOI are dealt with, has always
been to have 1,000 for the first KOI and 100 gallons for each additional
KOI. Since most individuals have filters and sometimes elaborate ones at
that, I have always felt this a little over kill, but here in my area where
people had adhered to this convential thoughts consistantly have KOI in
there ponds over 30 inches long and they consistantly dispose of any fish
that puts them over there stocking level.

Having done this for a number of years I have found that stocking levels are
dependent on water volume and water flow in conjunction with filtering
capability. So it all depends on how much you want to put into your
filtering system and pumping capability of you pond setup.

If you have a fairly good filtering system, either bought or a DIY, one
fish per 100 gallons would seem a good stocking level. Just remember that
if you have a pond with big fish in it and the power goes out it is always
the big fish that die first.

Just a plug for Goldfish, they should have about 25 gallons were fish, but
this can be lowered to 10 gallons per fish, depending on your filteration
system and its efficiency, but in any event just remember that stocking
levels are the bain of any ponder and cause almost more problems than any
one really wants to deal. Your pond is almost a closed environment in which
you are the care taker and it is your responsibility to keep it running
right and this includes stocking levels.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >Your koi will grow to be over 24 inches long and 100 gallons per koi is
> >not
>>enough. We visited an indoor koi pond, 15000 gallons this past weekend,
>>and
>>it had 15 koi, or 1000 gallons per koi. The more fish/gallon, the more
>>filter, and I mean a lot more filter. RTB
>
> Which means, in small pond translation if I may, if you get 10 tiny koi
> for
> a 1,000 gallon pond, you should be selling or giving away a couple koi
> every year for a few years. Keeping the prettiest for yourself of course.
> ;-)
>
> I started out with 20 some koi at one point, now I'm down to 3 adults in
> one pond and 5 in the other, which is going to drop to 4 soon, with a few
> babies. I've chosen to sell a couple of my adult koi so I can watch more
> of
> the babies grow up a bit before they too are cull and sold/given away.
> ~ jan
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> www.jjspond.us
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website
>