Clown Loach being held prisoner by Pl*co

[Gill Passman]

This morning when I came downstairs I noticed that one of my big Clowns had
got himself into the Pl*c's hollow in the driftwood. The Pl*co was blocking
the exit (Queen Arabesque). This also happened a few days ago but I managed
to persuade the Pl*c out with a wafer.

The Clown has now been in there all day - I can no longer even see him -
earlier he was waggling his tail. All his Clown buddies are hovering around
the driftwood as if they are looking for him. I've tried wafers and gently
tilting the driftwood but still can't free the Clown - I know it's nowhere
else in the tank because I've just done the water change and gravel vaccuum.
I'm starting to get worried.

Is the Pl*co likely to hurt the Clown? and is his predicament itself likely
to harm him?

Any ideas to free my Clown would be gratefully appreciated along with if
anyone can shed any light on this behaviour by the Pl*c....I'm thinking
territorial but it doesn't make sense that he won't let the Clown out...

Thanks
Gill

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> This morning when I came downstairs I noticed that one of my big Clowns
> had
> got himself into the Pl*c's hollow in the driftwood. The Pl*co was
> blocking
> the exit (Queen Arabesque). This also happened a few days ago but I
> managed
> to persuade the Pl*c out with a wafer.
>
> The Clown has now been in there all day - I can no longer even see
> him -
> earlier he was waggling his tail. All his Clown buddies are hovering
> around
> the driftwood as if they are looking for him. I've tried wafers and
> gently
> tilting the driftwood but still can't free the Clown - I know it's
> nowhere
> else in the tank because I've just done the water change and gravel
> vaccuum.
> I'm starting to get worried.
>
> Is the Pl*co likely to hurt the Clown? and is his predicament itself
> likely
> to harm him?
>
> Any ideas to free my Clown would be gratefully appreciated along with
> if
> anyone can shed any light on this behaviour by the Pl*c....I'm thinking
> territorial but it doesn't make sense that he won't let the Clown
> out...
>
> Thanks
> Gill


LOL, sounds intriguing. You can bet that it's not an evolved behaviour
involving those two as they come from different parts of the world. I'm
surprised that the Clown would not find opportunity to leave, but perhaps
the Queen is starving the intruder out of her cave. Physically, the
scaleless Clown is in *much* more danger from the Queen's rasping teeth
than vice versa. I would try to tempt the Queen away (sink some
well-weighed zucchini away from the entrance) to see if the Clown can
make its escape. Alternately, remove the cave and replace it with
something which has a back door ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[dfreas]

Don't worry about it. The clown is probably slightly annoyed at the
predicament but won't receive any lasting harm from it. The pl*co is
not being territorial - it's being oblivious. Generally once pl*cos get
comfortable they don't move much during the day and they don't pay much
attention to the fish around them. Your clown was in the wrong place at
the wrong time and the pl*co got comfortable and probably has no
intentions of moving until nighttime.

Tonight when the pl*co starts swimming around the tank the clown will
get free and hopefully will have learned its lesson. The pl*co won't
hurt the clown. Just ignore it unless for some odd reason it happens
repeatedly.

-Daniel

[Gill Passman]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Don't worry about it. The clown is probably slightly annoyed at the
> predicament but won't receive any lasting harm from it. The pl*co is
> not being territorial - it's being oblivious. Generally once pl*cos get
> comfortable they don't move much during the day and they don't pay much
> attention to the fish around them. Your clown was in the wrong place at
> the wrong time and the pl*co got comfortable and probably has no
> intentions of moving until nighttime.
>
> Tonight when the pl*co starts swimming around the tank the clown will
> get free and hopefully will have learned its lesson. The pl*co won't
> hurt the clown. Just ignore it unless for some odd reason it happens
> repeatedly.
>
> -Daniel
>
He just made another bid for freedom but the pl*co just moved further into
the hole blocking off his escape - weird. The rest of the Clowns have spent
most of the day sitting at the entrance occassionally nudging the pl*co.

Guess I'll just have to wait for the pl*co to go on his night time
activities and hope that the Clown has enough sense to make good his
escape....

[dfreas]

It's not really so weird as it seems. To you it looks like the clown
tried to escape and the pl*co moved to close him in, but think of it as
individual fish acting independantly instead of a concerted effort on
the part of one or the other.

The clown is stuck and wants to get out. So it moves toward the exit.
The pl*co completely unaware and uncaring of the trapped clown feels
motion nearby and tries to get into a better hiding place - by moving
farther into the cave. Which traps the clown. They'll probably be doing
this all day - every time the pl*co gets in a position that allows the
clown a chance at freedom the clown will try for it, which will make
the pl*co try to hide when she feels the motion and thus retrap the
clown.

Netmax is correct in saying that the pl*co could possibly hurt the
clown though. Keep an eye on the two every now and then and make sure
the pl*co doesn't try anything. I'm almost certain the pl*co won't, but
if she does you'll need to intervene.

-Daniel

[Gill Passman]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It's not really so weird as it seems. To you it looks like the clown
> tried to escape and the pl*co moved to close him in, but think of it as
> individual fish acting independantly instead of a concerted effort on
> the part of one or the other.
>
> The clown is stuck and wants to get out. So it moves toward the exit.
> The pl*co completely unaware and uncaring of the trapped clown feels
> motion nearby and tries to get into a better hiding place - by moving
> farther into the cave. Which traps the clown. They'll probably be doing
> this all day - every time the pl*co gets in a position that allows the
> clown a chance at freedom the clown will try for it, which will make
> the pl*co try to hide when she feels the motion and thus retrap the
> clown.
>
> Netmax is correct in saying that the pl*co could possibly hurt the
> clown though. Keep an eye on the two every now and then and make sure
> the pl*co doesn't try anything. I'm almost certain the pl*co won't, but
> if she does you'll need to intervene.
>
> -Daniel
>
Itchy made good his escape and seems none the worse for it....good colour
and no wounds. Currently, he is dancing about with the smaller Clowns. He's
a bit hungry but if I feed him now there is no guarantee he would get it so
he'll have to wait til the morning. This is the second time he has done
this....hope he learns....

Only problem now is all four of my smaller Clowns have got Ich.....just had
to treat the tank....coincidence - probably....but who knows how stressed
they got???? The other large Clown (Scratchy) seems happy to have his buddy
back but no sign of Ich....

Pl*co couldn't care less.....

All a day in the world of fish I guess :-) .....but it was quite funny LOL

[dfreas]

Just my $.02 here but I would suggest _not_ treating the tank...ever.
Using medication is an easy way to lose fish.

To cure ich increase your tank's temperature to 80 degrees F and do 20%
water changes every day for a week. Feed a bit more heavily than normal
but nothing excessive. If at the end of the week there are still signs
of ich then continue this treatment for another week. I have never seen
this treatment fail or require more than two weeks...usually one is
plenty. When you're done treating return to your normal feeding
schedule and lower the temp by a degree per day until it is back to
whatever you keep it at.

That method will get rid of the ich without killing your fish.
Medication is very likely to kill the ich and your fish.

-Daniel

[Gill Passman]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Just my $.02 here but I would suggest _not_ treating the tank...ever.
> Using medication is an easy way to lose fish.
>
> To cure ich increase your tank's temperature to 80 degrees F and do 20%
> water changes every day for a week. Feed a bit more heavily than normal
> but nothing excessive. If at the end of the week there are still signs
> of ich then continue this treatment for another week. I have never seen
> this treatment fail or require more than two weeks...usually one is
> plenty. When you're done treating return to your normal feeding
> schedule and lower the temp by a degree per day until it is back to
> whatever you keep it at.
>
> That method will get rid of the ich without killing your fish.
> Medication is very likely to kill the ich and your fish.
>
> -Daniel
>
What I use is Interpet Anti White Spot Plus.....it generally works without
killing the fish. But what I do need to do is finish off the Ich for good. I
have no plans to add any more fish to this tank other than what the Platy's
do naturally....and I'm getting quite a good survival rate. Temp is already
around 80F so maybe I need to plug away at the water changes .....

[Elaine T]

dfreas wrote:
> Just my $.02 here but I would suggest _not_ treating the tank...ever.
> Using medication is an easy way to lose fish.
>
> To cure ich increase your tank's temperature to 80 degrees F and do 20%
> water changes every day for a week. Feed a bit more heavily than normal
> but nothing excessive. If at the end of the week there are still signs
> of ich then continue this treatment for another week. I have never seen
> this treatment fail or require more than two weeks...usually one is
> plenty. When you're done treating return to your normal feeding
> schedule and lower the temp by a degree per day until it is back to
> whatever you keep it at.
>
> That method will get rid of the ich without killing your fish.
> Medication is very likely to kill the ich and your fish.
>
> -Daniel
>
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Advice similar to that cost me half
the fish in my tank when I was a beginner. I wised up and used
formalin/malachite, saving the rest of the tank. I've treated the few
outbreaks I've had since since with Quick Cure, never lost a fish - even
clown loaches, and only had it fail once.

What you suggest probably works in your tanks because your fish have
previously been exposed to the parasite and have some natural immunity.
A beginner or someone with a batch of new, unexposed fish needs to
be quite a bit more cautious because ich can get out of control
surprisingly quickly.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[dfreas]

Maybe. I bought a group of cardinal tetras not long ago though and they
all had quite a bad case of ich when I got them from the LFS (probably
why they were on sale). I used this treatment and aside from the few I
lost the night I bought them and the very next day all of them cleared
up very quickly.

I also used the same method on a couple of rasboras that I bought as
feeders for my catfish. They were in horrible condition with tattered
fins and torn up bodies. Fairly typical of feeders at the LFS around
here but I decided to pull a couple of them out of the catfish tank and
put them in my community tank because I liked their color. Again within
a week they were healed.

I don't use this treatment to cure the fish I have. The fish I have
never get ich - or any other disease. It's only new fish I use it on
that are sick when they arrive from the LFS.

I have used medication twice, once when I first started keeping fish on
a black moor - he died within two days. The second time I used it on a
group of green severums and I quit using it too early to tell if it
would have worked or not. To my eye the fish seemed stressed and I
didn't trust the medication. Since then I've never used anything but
increased temp and feedings and 20% water changes.

Mileage varies. I think chemical treatments are horrible but I
recognise the fact that many people use them with great success. I
suppose if it works for you then keep doing it. But for anybody that
loses fish as a result of medication I offer this method as an
alternative, I have never lost a fish to it.

-Daniel

[Billy]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Maybe. I bought a group of cardinal tetras not long ago though and
> they


What we are seeing here is not two people, one of whom is wrong, the
other right. What we are seeing here is proof of the maxim, YMMV,
Your Mileage May Vary. What works for one, may spell disaster for
another. If there is one thing I have learned in aquaria, fresh,
salt, Goldie, brackish and cichlid alike, is there are few, if any,
absolutes. Most "you musts" and "you must nevers" are purely
anecdotal. Dfreas had bad luck with medication. He has found a method
that works well for him. However, others have tried the temp
raise\water change method, and lost all their fish. I guarantee it. I
also know for a fact that many people dope the crap out of their
tanks, and don't seem to have any trouble. It goes both ways.
The best we, as aquarists, having sole responsibility for the
lives of our charges, can do is to read, listen and learn, then make
our own decisions on how to best care for our fish. We will have
failures, we will have successes. But, we must also avoid letting
either one cause us to utter our own "you musts" and "you must
nevers" based on those successes and failures. Just share your
experiences the best you can.

billy

[dfreas]

I thought that was fairly clear from our posts. I didn't get the
impression that Elaine was saying I was wrong - just that her
experience was different. I know that she knows what she's talking
about and in return I think she would say the same of me.

-Daniel

[Billy]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I thought that was fairly clear from our posts. I didn't get the
> impression that Elaine was saying I was wrong - just that her
> experience was different. I know that she knows what she's talking
> about and in return I think she would say the same of me.
>
> -Daniel
>

I just felt it a good time to point out something that I like to
mention here from time to time. If I have offended, I apologize.


billy

[Elaine T]

Billy wrote:
> "dfreas" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>I thought that was fairly clear from our posts. I didn't get the
>>impression that Elaine was saying I was wrong - just that her
>>experience was different. I know that she knows what she's talking
>>about and in return I think she would say the same of me.
>>
>>-Daniel
>>
>
>
> I just felt it a good time to point out something that I like to
> mention here from time to time. If I have offended, I apologize.
>
>
> billy
>
>
No offense taken at all, Billy. And I am certain that you know what
you're talking about, Daniel. I've been enjoying all the interesting
discussion on invertebrates lately.

I wanted to share my experience because IME most people here post on a
sick fish only when the fish is very sick. Ich posts are often about
many spots on multiple fish, finrot has gone on for weeks, fish have
dropsy, the tank is into wipeout Flexibacter, etc. I tend to recommend
drugs along with the water changes because of the degree of illness of
the fish. My ich troubles when I was a beginner were probably because
the disease was pretty far along before I noticed it. I only saw the
spots rather than noticing the flashing early on.

In the very early stages of almost anything, I definately agree that
water changes, optimal conditions for that species, and lots of good
food are the way to go. My fish also rarely get sick once I've
quarantined them and treated anything that pops up.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Billy wrote:
> > "dfreas" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> >
> >>I thought that was fairly clear from our posts. I didn't get the
> >>impression that Elaine was saying I was wrong - just that her
> >>experience was different. I know that she knows what she's talking
> >>about and in return I think she would say the same of me.
> >>
> >>-Daniel
> >>
> >
> >
> > I just felt it a good time to point out something that I like to
> > mention here from time to time. If I have offended, I apologize.
> >
> >
> > billy
> >
> >
> No offense taken at all, Billy. And I am certain that you know what
> you're talking about, Daniel. I've been enjoying all the interesting
> discussion on invertebrates lately.
>
> I wanted to share my experience because IME most people here post on a
> sick fish only when the fish is very sick. Ich posts are often about
> many spots on multiple fish, finrot has gone on for weeks, fish have
> dropsy, the tank is into wipeout Flexibacter, etc. I tend to recommend
> drugs along with the water changes because of the degree of illness of
> the fish. My ich troubles when I was a beginner were probably because
> the disease was pretty far along before I noticed it. I only saw the
> spots rather than noticing the flashing early on.
>
> In the very early stages of almost anything, I definately agree that
> water changes, optimal conditions for that species, and lots of good
> food are the way to go. My fish also rarely get sick once I've
> quarantined them and treated anything that pops up.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


Personally, I check the Clowns (and the others) morning and night for spots.
I know how the Ich got back there and am kicking myself very hard for it. I
guess my mistake of letting some store water getting in the tank along with
some plants coupled with yesterdays false imprisonment of the big Clown
causing stress has resulted in this latest outbreak.

The first time I saw it was when I put in the two big Clowns which must have
been around October time....it's how they got their names "Itchy" and
"Scratchy" lol. I remember getting straight onto the web to find out what it
was and then straight on the phone to the lfs and got a lot of good advice.
Now, I keep a bottle of Ich treatment in the cupboard under the tank so I
can treat immediately.

My short term aim is to clear up this latest attack which IME has been most
effectively done by medicating, which I hate doing. I prefer not to mess
with the water - mainly because I know if I complicate things too much one
day I'll forget to do something and it'll all end in tears. My long term aim
is to try and get the tank clear of this for good (which will include no
store water - I'm kicking myself again). Here, I think that the raised temps
along with the frequent water changes is the way to go.

BTW I think Scratchy has learnt his lesson.....he's keeping clear of the
pl*co's cave - lol. And ironically, for all the stress he went through
yesterday he is free of Ich for now.....

[Dick]

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 08:01:44 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Billy wrote:
>> "dfreas" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>>>I thought that was fairly clear from our posts. I didn't get the
>>>impression that Elaine was saying I was wrong - just that her
>>>experience was different. I know that she knows what she's talking
>>>about and in return I think she would say the same of me.
>>>
>>>-Daniel
>>>
>>
>>
>> I just felt it a good time to point out something that I like to
>> mention here from time to time. If I have offended, I apologize.
>>
>>
>> billy
>>
>>
>No offense taken at all, Billy. And I am certain that you know what
>you're talking about, Daniel. I've been enjoying all the interesting
>discussion on invertebrates lately.
>
>I wanted to share my experience because IME most people here post on a
>sick fish only when the fish is very sick. Ich posts are often about
>many spots on multiple fish, finrot has gone on for weeks, fish have
>dropsy, the tank is into wipeout Flexibacter, etc. I tend to recommend
>drugs along with the water changes because of the degree of illness of
>the fish. My ich troubles when I was a beginner were probably because
>the disease was pretty far along before I noticed it. I only saw the
>spots rather than noticing the flashing early on.
>
>In the very early stages of almost anything, I definately agree that
>water changes, optimal conditions for that species, and lots of good
>food are the way to go. My fish also rarely get sick once I've
>quarantined them and treated anything that pops up.

Hi everyone, just another 2 cents, I have 5 tanks set up about 2
years ago. I get all my fish and stuff via the internet, so no eye
balling ahead of purchase.

I bought 6 Clown Loaches, put them in a 75 gallon tank (only tank at
that time), and when I turned the lights on found they all had ich.
The merchant checked his tank and found the fish had ich. Actually he
had posted a sign, not to be sold, but one of the employees had not
noticed or ignored. Anyway, he replaced them after quarantine on a
new shipment.

Meanwhile, back on the ranch, oh, the fish tank, I had to order
medication, so tried covering the tank to cut out light (suggestion
1), and raising temperature to 82f (suggestion 2). After 2 days, all
I could stand, I took the blanket off and the Clowns still had ich.
Now arrives the medication. After 2 cycles, 2 of the Clowns looked
pretty good, while the other 4 were looking pretty weak, (hold your
noses, I dumped the 4). The other 2 continued to get well even though
I stopped all medication and started water changes. Today, the 2 are
still fine and were joined by another 6 (actually 7, the dealer sent
his apologizes) and no more ich 2 years later!

One of the interesting things I took from this experience is, healthy
tanks keep healthy fish. During the days those sick Clowns, not one
of the rest of the community fish got ill. I have had individual fish
get sick with various problems, but never any community kind of
epidemic. IMHO the secret is frequent water changes. I have no
chemicals in the tanks (5 at last count), no charcoal and lots of
plants. I am crossing my fingers as I write, no doubt all 5 tanks
will have a deadly lethal outbreak before morning. <g>

I agree with Billy, we all seem to find ways that work for us, and not
all the same. Sort of says something about life doesn't it?

dick

[dfreas]

I was thinking about this post this morning before I turned my computer
on and trying to come up with a reason that one of these two methods
either works or fails. I came to a similar conclusion that you seem to
have.

In order for the increase temp and feedings and start water changes to
work the person doing it has to understand why it works. Understanding
why it works gives the knowledge to understand when is a bad time to
use it. As you say many people that come here with complaints about a
disease have had the disease in their tank for a while and it is fairly
well developed - in this case my advice would indeed be bad. The method
I use will *only* work in the beginning stages of disease - using it on
a well developed disease will kill the fish fairly quickly.

An explanation is in order for those reading this that don't know the
reason behind the increase temp method. The idea is that by increasing
the aquarium temperature you speed up the metabolism of everything in
the tank. This means that the parasites in the tank now have a much
shorter life span (on the order of less than a week) and the fish go
into overdrive in the healing department. That is why you must also
increase feedings - the fish will be hungrier because their metabolism
is going faster. The water changes are to take advantage of the
shortened life span of the parasite, every time you change the water
you remove a significant portion of the disease which then, because of
its shortened life span cannot recover from the population hit.

Now imagine using this method on a fish that is sick to the point of
dying. All you are doing is speeding up the death process. In this case
when a fish is extremely weak the best thing to do is not depend on the
fish's immune system to defeat the disease (ie medicate). The fish's
immune system has already been severely compromised and is not up to
the task. So by increasing the temp you increase the metabolism of the
parasite which then blooms and goes nuts all over the fish which is too
weak to fight it off no matter how fast the fish's metabolism is
running.

So I would say both methods have their place. In early stages raise the
temp and use that method, but if the disease is already out of hand
just medicate - don't raise the temp. It all comes down to knowing why
you're doing something to your tank instead of just how to do it. Which
is probably why so many new people get frustrated so quickly - it is
easy to tell them how to solve their problem without telling them how
it works which leads to disaster (which is exactly what I was guilty of
in this thread).

-Daniel

[NetMax]

"Billy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "dfreas" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>I thought that was fairly clear from our posts. I didn't get the
>> impression that Elaine was saying I was wrong - just that her
>> experience was different. I know that she knows what she's talking
>> about and in return I think she would say the same of me.
>>
>> -Daniel
>>
>
> I just felt it a good time to point out something that I like to
> mention here from time to time. If I have offended, I apologize.
>
>
> billy


FWIW, I thought your post was well-worded and very well intended.

It's always a conundrum for someone giving advice. Should we tell them
what we have seen, what we do, or what we think they should do? The
difference between success and disaster is probably some combination of
i) the robustness difference between our fish, ii) the robustness
difference between species in general, iii) more experienced powers of
observation to be able to intercede when a treatment goes wrong, iv)
bioload, v) how far advanced the disease is, vi) water quality and vii)
quality of aeration.

Just considering the first (robustness difference), I have a tank of
African Julies (most of which were born in that tank) and they could
handle temperature and water shocks which could have most of the fish in
your average pet shop, belly up in under 10 minutes. In other examples
(in the trade), I've seen fish mistreated in such ways, that I couldn't
understand how they survived. One deliveryman forgot a box of fish on
the sidewalk (sub-zero weather). I remembered reading that you shouldn't
adjust large upward temperature changes slowly, so I didn't float, I
dumped, and they went from 50F to 77F, and all survived. A new employee
on their first day did a 50% water change on a tank with only cold water
(we forgot to tell them they had to adjust the temperature). When later
I walked by the tank, I thought the fish looked decidedly uncomfortable,
so I put my hand against the glass (it was around 60F in there). We
rushed over with a hose using100% hot water, and stirred until they were
at 77F, no losses, no Ich. Can I use any of that to give advice to
anyone? Nope.

Here is a little general advice. Whatever treatment you use
(temperature, water changes or medications), make sure the tank is well
aerated. If you aren't sure, then put in an airstone or a sponge
powerhead or something. Just about every treatment works better if you
can decrease the amount of effort the fish expends to breath (makes sense
when you think about it ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I was thinking about this post this morning before I turned my computer
> on and trying to come up with a reason that one of these two methods
> either works or fails. I came to a similar conclusion that you seem to
> have.
>
> In order for the increase temp and feedings and start water changes to
> work the person doing it has to understand why it works. Understanding
> why it works gives the knowledge to understand when is a bad time to
> use it. As you say many people that come here with complaints about a
> disease have had the disease in their tank for a while and it is fairly
> well developed - in this case my advice would indeed be bad. The method
> I use will *only* work in the beginning stages of disease - using it on
> a well developed disease will kill the fish fairly quickly.
>
> An explanation is in order for those reading this that don't know the
> reason behind the increase temp method. The idea is that by increasing
> the aquarium temperature you speed up the metabolism of everything in
> the tank. This means that the parasites in the tank now have a much
> shorter life span (on the order of less than a week) and the fish go
> into overdrive in the healing department. That is why you must also
> increase feedings - the fish will be hungrier because their metabolism
> is going faster. The water changes are to take advantage of the
> shortened life span of the parasite, every time you change the water
> you remove a significant portion of the disease which then, because of
> its shortened life span cannot recover from the population hit.
>
> Now imagine using this method on a fish that is sick to the point of
> dying. All you are doing is speeding up the death process. In this case
> when a fish is extremely weak the best thing to do is not depend on the
> fish's immune system to defeat the disease (ie medicate). The fish's
> immune system has already been severely compromised and is not up to
> the task. So by increasing the temp you increase the metabolism of the
> parasite which then blooms and goes nuts all over the fish which is too
> weak to fight it off no matter how fast the fish's metabolism is
> running.
>
> So I would say both methods have their place. In early stages raise the
> temp and use that method, but if the disease is already out of hand
> just medicate - don't raise the temp. It all comes down to knowing why
> you're doing something to your tank instead of just how to do it. Which
> is probably why so many new people get frustrated so quickly - it is
> easy to tell them how to solve their problem without telling them how
> it works which leads to disaster (which is exactly what I was guilty of
> in this thread).
>
> -Daniel
>
I must say that I like the idea of sorting out Ich without chemicals. What I
would like better is never to actually have the fish get it in the first
place....and that is a lesson I've learned from this outbreak - never, ever
mix store water with mine....

It was/is in fact in the very early stages brought on I'm sure by the stress
yesterday - they really did get very agitated at the fact that their
companion was trapped, so your idea of doing it via water changes would
probably have been a goer. But to be quite honest, I just wanted rid of it
before the fish started to truly suffer...hence the chemicals. They've got
the odd spot right now still (maybe 3 or 4 per fish) which is much the same
as yesterday but it's a matter of waiting for the spores to drop off before
any "treatment" is effective. It's only the smaller Clowns and they don't
seem bothered at all - still dancing round the tank....happy to have their
friend released....

Interestingly enough the Manager of one of the stores that I use is
convinced that the only time his fish get Ich is during "School Holidays"
when he gets a lot more children in stressing the fish by tapping on the
glass....and I must say in the 9 months I've gone there I have never seen
any fish with Ich (even in School Holidays - he's very strict with kids).
Unfortunately, it wasn't his water that I mixed with mine. This makes it
even more annoying because I even pointed out to them that their Clowns had
Ich.....I didn't buy Clowns but I guess it was already in their water
system....and then dozy me adds it into mine - unbelievably stupid!!!! Never
again......

When I medicate what I also do is raise the temperature in the tank to speed
up the cycle which is very much along the lines of what you are saying to do
without the chemicals. Not having your experience and still being new to
this I am a little more cautious - hence the treatment...What I do really,
really appreciate is everyone taking the time out to discuss this and
provide well considered responses such as all of yours...

Once the chemicals have worked their way through - 2nd dose due in a few
days...I am going to do the water changes anyway to try and rid the tank of
this very irritating parasite....

Thanks
Gill

[Angrie.Woman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
>.
>>
> I must say that I like the idea of sorting out Ich without chemicals. What
> I
> would like better is never to actually have the fish get it in the first
> place....and that is a lesson I've learned from this outbreak - never,
> ever
> mix store water with mine....

I think that is one of those lessons you just have to learn for yourself, no
matter how many times you've heard or read the advice.

The other lesson like that is the quarantine tank.

A