PHYSICAL symptoms of overstocking

[Gfishery]

What are the PHYSICAL symptoms of an overstocked tank?
(I am not looking for a "rule of thumb" here)

When fish die?
When Ammonia leveles go up?
When Nitrite/Nitrate levels go up?
When water becomes cloudy?
When fish try to jump out of the tank?
When fish stop eating?
When fish stop growing? (How does one tell if a fish is stunted?)
When fish seem stresed?
When fish have no place to swim properly? (a relative term)

If none of the above happens, can one conclude that the tank is NOT
overstocked, regardless of any "rule of thumb"?

Do goldfish have some special spacial-sensing mechanism that
biologically/genetically prevents them from growing larger if they are
raised in a small tank, even if the water quality is excellent?

Thanks!

[dfreas]

Gfishery wrote:
> What are the PHYSICAL symptoms of an overstocked tank?
> (I am not looking for a "rule of thumb" here)
>
> When fish die?

Well hopefully it doesn't come to that, but yes if you suspect your
tank is overstocked and you have fish dying then it almost certainly
is.

> When Ammonia leveles go up?

No. In a well established tank even overstocking won't cause you to see
ammonia unless you are extremely overstocked. If you detect any ammonia
at all after initial cycling something is certainly wrong but a tank
can be quite a bit overstocked and still show no ammonia.

> When Nitrite/Nitrate levels go up?

Yes and no. High nitrate levels are inevitable if you never change the
water so high levels could easily indicate an inadequate maintenance
schedule rather than overstocking. What is more important is the rate
of change of nitrates. If nitrates are going up quickly then your tank
may be overstocked. Quickly is a relative term though. If nitrates are
going up faster than you can control with your maintenance schedule and
you aren't willing to change your maintenance schedule then your tank
has too many fish in it for you. That might not be too many fish for
someone else though - so this is a completely subjective indicator.

> When water becomes cloudy?

No. Water can become cloudy for a number of reasons. Overstocking is
among them though so if you have cloudy water it may be an indicator
but it is not necesarily one. Rule out other possibilities before
jumping to conclusions on this one.

> When fish try to jump out of the tank?

That depends entirely on what sort of fish you are keeping. Some fish
jump regardless of water quality. Some fish that normally don't jump
will jump out of the water when fighting with other fish. Some fish
will jump to get out of bad water. This is extremely subjective - if
your fish are jumping then first research your fish to see if this is
normal behavior for the species, if not then start checking water
quality parameters to figure out what's wrong. Also watch the tank a
bit, if there is a lot of aggression going around it may be because you
have a tempermental fish rather than an overstocked tank.

> When fish stop eating?

Fish will not stop eating as a result of overpopulation. If fish stop
eating something else is wrong. Possibly disease, extreme aggression,
or wide swings in temperature or pH. Other things may also cause this
but I've never seen a fish not eat because of crowding.

> When fish stop growing? (How does one tell if a fish is stunted?)

Possibly but not usually. Fish will keep right on growing in most
circumstances. There will be many warning signs along the way before a
tank gets bad enough to stop a fish from growing.

> When fish seem stresed?

Quite possibly, but fish get stressed for many reasons, be sure you are
diagnosing the right problem. Check your water parameters - changes in
pH, temperature, acts of aggression, low dissolved oxygen, high
nitrates, ammonia, or nitrites. Many things cause stress,
overpopulation is on the low side as far as the amount of stress caused
except in extreme conditions.

> When fish have no place to swim properly? (a relative term)

If your fish are packed in that tight then yes the tank is overstocked.
Fish should always have room to swim freely.

> If none of the above happens, can one conclude that the tank is NOT
> overstocked, regardless of any "rule of thumb"?

If your water quality is ok, the fish have plenty of room to swim, and
the fish are happy (exhibiting normal behavior, bright colors, breeding
activities, good apetites, healthy growth, etc, etc) then your tank is
probably not overstocked regardless of rule of thumb. Again this is
subjective - someone who has not kept fish for long would probably not
notice many of the warning signs that would be obvious to a person with
years of experience.


> Do goldfish have some special spacial-sensing mechanism that
> biologically/genetically prevents them from growing larger if they
are
> raised in a small tank, even if the water quality is excellent?


No, your goldfish will continue to grow. In my experience however they
will grow slower in a tank that is too small. You will see the evidence
of this when you switch them to a larger tank and observe an immediate
growth spurt.

-Daniel

[Gill Passman]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Gfishery wrote:
> > What are the PHYSICAL symptoms of an overstocked tank?
> > (I am not looking for a "rule of thumb" here)
> >
> > When fish die?
>
> Well hopefully it doesn't come to that, but yes if you suspect your
> tank is overstocked and you have fish dying then it almost certainly
> is.
>
> > When Ammonia leveles go up?
>
> No. In a well established tank even overstocking won't cause you to see
> ammonia unless you are extremely overstocked. If you detect any ammonia
> at all after initial cycling something is certainly wrong but a tank
> can be quite a bit overstocked and still show no ammonia.
>
> > When Nitrite/Nitrate levels go up?
>
> Yes and no. High nitrate levels are inevitable if you never change the
> water so high levels could easily indicate an inadequate maintenance
> schedule rather than overstocking. What is more important is the rate
> of change of nitrates. If nitrates are going up quickly then your tank
> may be overstocked. Quickly is a relative term though. If nitrates are
> going up faster than you can control with your maintenance schedule and
> you aren't willing to change your maintenance schedule then your tank
> has too many fish in it for you. That might not be too many fish for
> someone else though - so this is a completely subjective indicator.
>
> > When water becomes cloudy?
>
> No. Water can become cloudy for a number of reasons. Overstocking is
> among them though so if you have cloudy water it may be an indicator
> but it is not necesarily one. Rule out other possibilities before
> jumping to conclusions on this one.
>
> > When fish try to jump out of the tank?
>
> That depends entirely on what sort of fish you are keeping. Some fish
> jump regardless of water quality. Some fish that normally don't jump
> will jump out of the water when fighting with other fish. Some fish
> will jump to get out of bad water. This is extremely subjective - if
> your fish are jumping then first research your fish to see if this is
> normal behavior for the species, if not then start checking water
> quality parameters to figure out what's wrong. Also watch the tank a
> bit, if there is a lot of aggression going around it may be because you
> have a tempermental fish rather than an overstocked tank.
>
> > When fish stop eating?
>
> Fish will not stop eating as a result of overpopulation. If fish stop
> eating something else is wrong. Possibly disease, extreme aggression,
> or wide swings in temperature or pH. Other things may also cause this
> but I've never seen a fish not eat because of crowding.
>
> > When fish stop growing? (How does one tell if a fish is stunted?)
>
> Possibly but not usually. Fish will keep right on growing in most
> circumstances. There will be many warning signs along the way before a
> tank gets bad enough to stop a fish from growing.
>
> > When fish seem stresed?
>
> Quite possibly, but fish get stressed for many reasons, be sure you are
> diagnosing the right problem. Check your water parameters - changes in
> pH, temperature, acts of aggression, low dissolved oxygen, high
> nitrates, ammonia, or nitrites. Many things cause stress,
> overpopulation is on the low side as far as the amount of stress caused
> except in extreme conditions.
>
> > When fish have no place to swim properly? (a relative term)
>
> If your fish are packed in that tight then yes the tank is overstocked.
> Fish should always have room to swim freely.
>
> > If none of the above happens, can one conclude that the tank is NOT
> > overstocked, regardless of any "rule of thumb"?
>
> If your water quality is ok, the fish have plenty of room to swim, and
> the fish are happy (exhibiting normal behavior, bright colors, breeding
> activities, good apetites, healthy growth, etc, etc) then your tank is
> probably not overstocked regardless of rule of thumb. Again this is
> subjective - someone who has not kept fish for long would probably not
> notice many of the warning signs that would be obvious to a person with
> years of experience.
>
>
> > Do goldfish have some special spacial-sensing mechanism that
> > biologically/genetically prevents them from growing larger if they
> are
> > raised in a small tank, even if the water quality is excellent?
>
>
> No, your goldfish will continue to grow. In my experience however they
> will grow slower in a tank that is too small. You will see the evidence
> of this when you switch them to a larger tank and observe an immediate
> growth spurt.
>
> -Daniel
>
Maybe we should open a whole debate on this. When I first posted on the
newsgroups the response was that I am overstocked in my tank. However, every
single reading on the chemicals of the water and my observations of the fish
seem to negate this.

Overstocking in my mind is when my fish die or my nitrite/ammonia levels
rise to an unacceptable level. I stock the tanks to the level that the fish
are comfortable and I am comfortable maintaining.

That being said the general guidelines are good if someone just wants to
keep some fish looking pretty in a tank without too much hassle. Personally,
if I stuck to the stocking levels I would spend a lot of time looking at two
pretty empty 50UK gall tanks (one planted and one rocks and caves)....but
I'm willing to do the work to maintain this....maybe not everyone is so
therefore it is safer to come up with an arbitary level for the majority.
BTW I also enjoy some of my lesser stocked tanks but that is down to the
tank decor and the type of fish kept there...and you can still lose sight of
a single fish in a planted 5gall tank but I'm not pushing it there.

I do know people who overstock and see their fish die and generally will say
that they have too many fish for the size of tank and THEIR FILTRATION AND
MAINTENANCE ROUTINE. Just spoken to a friend in such a position and having
followed the routine I suggested all three of her tanks are now stable....

Now, overstocking a new tank that is still cycling is a different
matter....fish should be added gradually...to allow everything to stabalise
before the next batch go in...

BTW for the record this is how the tanks are stocked

Tank 1 - 50UK gall (which I believe is around 57 US galls)

6 Clown Loaches (largest keep growing and are around 3.5" at the moment)
4 3 spot Blue Gouramis
3 SAEs (that are growing at a very rapid rate)
1 Queen Arabesque Pl*c
5 Fantail Guppies
9 Neon Tetras
2 Orange/Black Platys
4 Green Platys (1 of these grew up in the tank and as he is now larger than
the orange ones can't be classed as a baby anymore)
Last count a further 3 Platy fry at about 1/4 inch

Ammonia and Nitrite readings are 0. Around 5 on the Nitrate - planted tank

Tank 2 - 50UK gall

17 assorted Mbuna
2 Peacocks

Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. Around 20 on the Nitrates but I can't plant too
much of it coz of the Mbunas

Tank 3 - 5 UK gall

1 Betta
Around 5 Platy fry that I couldn't catch without too much stress to them -
later

Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. Not sure about Nitrates - planted tank

Tank 4 - belongs to my son - around 17UK gall

4 Rosy Barbs
3 Mollies

Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. Nitrates 5 - planted

Tank 5 - belongs to my son - 30UK gall

2 Pearl Gouramis - total love match all they need to do now is get their act
together and spawn
6 Harlequins
2 Glowlight Tetras
8 Mollie fry - evicted from the 5gall so I could get my betta in
8 Platy fry - as above

Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. Nitrates 5 - planted

Now lots of people would say at least one, if not more, of these tanks are
overstocked....but everyone is happy....

[dfreas]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Maybe we should open a whole debate on this. When I first posted on
the
> newsgroups the response was that I am overstocked in my tank.
However, every
> single reading on the chemicals of the water and my observations of
the fish
> seem to negate this.

We could debate this but in the end little will be accomplished. I'm
obviously of the opinion that overstocked is subjective but I also
agree that beginers should usually stick to the guidelines. I think
people often forget that mileage varies considerably and are quick to
attack new people about the population level of their tank because it's
an easy way to appear experienced. There are limits though - I don't
think it's a good idea for a beginner to break the "rules" but I won't
tell them they are doomed to fail if they do anyway - I'll encourage
them with what advice I can and hope things work out well for them.

[snip]
> Now lots of people would say at least one, if not more, of these
tanks are
> overstocked....but everyone is happy....

Yeah, a couple of your tanks have more fish in them then I would be
willing to deal with. But obviously it's working for you.

I once had a tank with five severums in it - that tank was severely
overstocked. It was well within the rules of inch per gallon but these
were territorial little guys and the big ones really took it out on the
little ones. OTOH I have a 20g tank now with between 30 and 40 inches
of fish in it, it isn't overstocked at all because I carefully planned
the fish in it to occupy different spaces and generally not interfere
with eachother - also there is about 10 inches of plant per inch of
fish in there.

-Daniel

[Gfishery]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Maybe we should open a whole debate on this. When I first posted on the
> newsgroups the response was that I am overstocked in my tank. However,
every
> single reading on the chemicals of the water and my observations of the
fish
> seem to negate this.

I didn't mean to open a can of worms (I'm sure some fish will like that :),
but the only thing that seems logical to me with respect to tank size is
that the smaller the volume, the less time one will have to react to (and
deal with) a chemical problem that may arise that could harm the fish. More
fish in the tank contributing to the chemical problem will further reduce
that time.

To me, a rule of thumb like 1 gallon per fish-inch, or 10 gallons per
goldfish is like saying I need to change the oil in my car every 2500 miles,
with no regard to my driving patterns or environmental conditions. My theory
is that under the right conditions, I can go 5000 miles between oil changes
with no noticeable degradation in performance or lifetime of the engine (if
I may draw an analogy between engines and fish). Or, I may have to change
the oil more frequently if I detect that the oil is breaking down before
2500 miles. I am by no means trying to determine the maximum number of fish
that will fit into a 10 gallon tank, or the maximum number of miles I can
put on my car between oil changes.
Still, I suppose a "rule of thumb" is better than having no guidelines at
all, but there must be a better yardstick, and that is what I am seeking
here.

[Elaine T]

Gfishery wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Maybe we should open a whole debate on this. When I first posted on the
>>newsgroups the response was that I am overstocked in my tank. However,
>
> every
>
>>single reading on the chemicals of the water and my observations of the
>
> fish
>
>>seem to negate this.
>
>
> I didn't mean to open a can of worms (I'm sure some fish will like that :),
> but the only thing that seems logical to me with respect to tank size is
> that the smaller the volume, the less time one will have to react to (and
> deal with) a chemical problem that may arise that could harm the fish. More
> fish in the tank contributing to the chemical problem will further reduce
> that time.
>
> To me, a rule of thumb like 1 gallon per fish-inch, or 10 gallons per
> goldfish is like saying I need to change the oil in my car every 2500 miles,
> with no regard to my driving patterns or environmental conditions. My theory
> is that under the right conditions, I can go 5000 miles between oil changes
> with no noticeable degradation in performance or lifetime of the engine (if
> I may draw an analogy between engines and fish). Or, I may have to change
> the oil more frequently if I detect that the oil is breaking down before
> 2500 miles. I am by no means trying to determine the maximum number of fish
> that will fit into a 10 gallon tank, or the maximum number of miles I can
> put on my car between oil changes.
> Still, I suppose a "rule of thumb" is better than having no guidelines at
> all, but there must be a better yardstick, and that is what I am seeking
> here.
>
>
Have you seen NetMax's article on stocking?
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/stocking/stocking.shtml He covers a
lot of different things to think about when stocking an aquarium. For
example, my 10 gal guppy tank currently has a 2 guppies and 2
otocinclus. 4" of fish. I expect that to change any day now, though.

OTOH, I have 7 fish comfortably inhating a 5 gal "jungle" planted tank.
It's definately above the inch per gallon rule. However, the plants
keep the water quality very high and the less water I change, the
healthier the fish look and the better the plants grow. That tank has 5
Espei rasboras, one very small SAE who thinks it's a rasbora, and a
pygmy chained loach.

For the time being, stocking is an art, not an exact science.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> What are the PHYSICAL symptoms of an overstocked tank?
> (I am not looking for a "rule of thumb" here)
>
> When fish die?
> When Ammonia leveles go up?
> When Nitrite/Nitrate levels go up?
> When water becomes cloudy?
> When fish try to jump out of the tank?
> When fish stop eating?
> When fish stop growing? (How does one tell if a fish is stunted?)
> When fish seem stresed?
> When fish have no place to swim properly? (a relative term)
>
> If none of the above happens, can one conclude that the tank is NOT
> overstocked, regardless of any "rule of thumb"?
>
> Do goldfish have some special spacial-sensing mechanism that
> biologically/genetically prevents them from growing larger if they are
> raised in a small tank, even if the water quality is excellent?
>
> Thanks!


All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but I
can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc etc.

Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to get
home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power there
didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[dfreas]

Ha! I hadn't thought of that - that's an excellent test.

-Daniel

[Gail Futoran]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Gfishery" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> What are the PHYSICAL symptoms of an overstocked tank?
>> (I am not looking for a "rule of thumb" here)
[snip]
> All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but I
> can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
> which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
> available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
> Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
> problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc etc.
>
> Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
> lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
> before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
> it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
> might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to get
> home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
> Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
> tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
> were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power there
> didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk

Thanks for posting that useful test. I have experienced
an inadvertent version of it whenever power fails around
here (not as much now as a few years ago). I keep
battery powered air pumps as backups just in case. So
far I haven't had to use them. I probably am overstocked
a bit on most tanks but all my fish are small (largest are
common Cory cats) and that might help, plus the tanks
are heavily planted.

Gail

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Gfishery" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > What are the PHYSICAL symptoms of an overstocked tank?
> > (I am not looking for a "rule of thumb" here)
> >
> > When fish die?
> > When Ammonia leveles go up?
> > When Nitrite/Nitrate levels go up?
> > When water becomes cloudy?
> > When fish try to jump out of the tank?
> > When fish stop eating?
> > When fish stop growing? (How does one tell if a fish is stunted?)
> > When fish seem stresed?
> > When fish have no place to swim properly? (a relative term)
> >
> > If none of the above happens, can one conclude that the tank is NOT
> > overstocked, regardless of any "rule of thumb"?
> >
> > Do goldfish have some special spacial-sensing mechanism that
> > biologically/genetically prevents them from growing larger if they are
> > raised in a small tank, even if the water quality is excellent?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
>
> All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but I
> can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
> which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
> available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
> Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
> problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc etc.
>
> Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
> lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
> before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
> it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
> might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to get
> home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
> Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
> tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
> were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power there
> didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
About 2-3 months ago before the Malawi tank was stocked we had a power
outage - around 8 hours evening til around 3am....I checked the fish in the
main Community Tank a few times by candle light - my major concern was any
temp drops. Didn't see any signs of distress at all.....I confess I have
added the three SAE's since then for the algae problem but have also added a
lot of plants as well...

Sounds like a good test to me

Gill

[Elaine T]

NetMax wrote:

> Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
> lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
> before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
> it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
> might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to get
> home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
> Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
> tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
> were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power there
> didn't fail at the same time. You decide.

Interesting. I suspect that by that measure, my heavily planted tanks
would be very understocked during the day and overstocked at night (once
plants stop giving off O2).

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
>
> > Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
> > lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
> > before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
> > it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
> > might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to
get
> > home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
> > Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
> > tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
> > were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power
there
> > didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
>
> Interesting. I suspect that by that measure, my heavily planted tanks
> would be very understocked during the day and overstocked at night (once
> plants stop giving off O2).
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Curious as to how a CO2 unit might effect this as well.

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> ...
>> NetMax wrote:
>>
>> > Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank
>> > (no
>> > lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how
>> > long
>> > before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked
>> > tank,
>> > it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank,
>> > it
>> > might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have
>> > to
> get
>> > home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
>> > Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach
>> > the
>> > tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if
>> > you
>> > were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power
> there
>> > didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
>>
>> Interesting. I suspect that by that measure, my heavily planted tanks
>> would be very understocked during the day and overstocked at night
>> (once
>> plants stop giving off O2).
>>
>> --
>> __ Elaine T __
>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> Curious as to how a CO2 unit might effect this as well.


My *understanding* is that CO2 does not displace O2 at the levels
normally encountered in these applications, so the concern is that
night-time CO2 injection, without the plant's consumption, will likely
increase the CO2 concentration, which may/will act on the tank's pH,
driving it downwards if there is insufficient buffer in the water.

If there was a power failure at night, the loss of turbulence at the
surface would cause the rate of CO2 dissipation to decrease, worsening
the potential of the concern above (pH crash). In this case, the fish
would have 2 stresses to deal with (drop in O2 and a drop in pH), so
while the CO2 would not worsen the O2 situation, it would worsen the
fish's predicament.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[dfreas]

For a perfect example of what would happen in an overstocked CO2
injected tank if the power went out see my recent post "Another reason
for keeping inverts" you can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/6uasl

The power didn't go out but I did intentionally turn off the surface
agitation (the only non-plant source of aeration in the tank) and
several bad things happened all at once. O2 concentration dropped, CO2
concentration hit toxic levels (around 50ppm), and the pH fell through
the floor. This happened in about 8 hours and I suspect if I had not
realized what was happening when I checked the tank that morning I
would have come home from work to a tank full of dead fish.

-Daniel

[Gill Passman]

"dfreas" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> For a perfect example of what would happen in an overstocked CO2
> injected tank if the power went out see my recent post "Another reason
> for keeping inverts" you can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/6uasl
>
> The power didn't go out but I did intentionally turn off the surface
> agitation (the only non-plant source of aeration in the tank) and
> several bad things happened all at once. O2 concentration dropped, CO2
> concentration hit toxic levels (around 50ppm), and the pH fell through
> the floor. This happened in about 8 hours and I suspect if I had not
> realized what was happening when I checked the tank that morning I
> would have come home from work to a tank full of dead fish.
>
> -Daniel
>
Yes, I followed this thread and it was one of the things that prompted me to
ask the question. A few weeks ago I posted about whether to put in a CO2
unit or not (this is in my "fully-stocked" 50 UK gall Community Planted
Tank). My main concern is that I can't quite get to grips with the idea of
pumping in CO2 with fish requiring Oxygen - what happens at night was the
main concern. And yes I know that during daylight hours the plants will
produce O2 so it won't (or shouldn't) be an issue at that point. I went as
far as going out and buying a CO2 unit and then I saw your post and at the
moment it's still in its box.

The arguements for doing it is that it will promote plant growth and I
should overcome the algae problem...the negatives are that I have a very
fine balance in the tank and it might push it the other way...what I did was
add the SAE's and with the Pl*c, more plants and plant food the amount of
maintenance I have to do on the algae is reduced - I still need to do it
once/twice a week but it is nothing compared to what I had to do in the
past....and of course keep up the water changes. I'm also thinking of adding
additional filtration to help with this - currently have a Fluval 304
external.

Now, from what I understand, the CO2 unit will continue pumping in the CO2
irrespective of power as it is a chemical reaction so even if there was a
power cut this will carry on. If oxygenation is the most important issue
during a power failure in a "fully-stocked" tank then simply by having a CO2
unit changing the balance, from what I understand from NetMax's post, the
problems of Oxygen starvation will occur quicker. Maybe this is another
factor to consider when putting in a CO2 unit - at the moment I'm swinging
towards more maintenance and writing off plants from time to time rather
than risking the fish....

Gill

[dfreas]

Well it isn't an easy decision. I can tell you my experience so far. I
put a DIY CO2 generator on my tank for the first time not long ago.
Before adding it my aquarium was very stable and all of the fish were
happy but none of the plants were growing very fast. I added the CO2
and all of the plants have doubled in size since then and are doing
very well. The trade off is that my aquarium isn't anywhere near as
stable and I have to test it routinely to make sure nothing bad is
happening.

Part of the reason for this is my soft water; 4dKH/4dGH isn't much so
pH swings happen easily if I'm not paying attention. The easy solution
would be to raise the hardness of the water to reduce fluctuations but
I keep fish that like soft water so I haven't done that. I have learned
a lot about water chemistry and how to control changes since adding
CO2. And I keep mixing new batches so obviously I think it is worth the
extra work. As I get more experience with it I'm having to do less and
less work to maintain a balance. It's really just about learning.

I say go ahead and hook it up for a week, maybe two then decide. If you
don't like it then unhook it, if you do like it then keep it.

-Daniel

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:

> "dfreas" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>For a perfect example of what would happen in an overstocked CO2
>>injected tank if the power went out see my recent post "Another reason
>>for keeping inverts" you can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/6uasl
>>
>>The power didn't go out but I did intentionally turn off the surface
>>agitation (the only non-plant source of aeration in the tank) and
>>several bad things happened all at once. O2 concentration dropped, CO2
>>concentration hit toxic levels (around 50ppm), and the pH fell through
>>the floor. This happened in about 8 hours and I suspect if I had not
>>realized what was happening when I checked the tank that morning I
>>would have come home from work to a tank full of dead fish.
>>
>>-Daniel
>>
>
> Yes, I followed this thread and it was one of the things that prompted me to
> ask the question. A few weeks ago I posted about whether to put in a CO2
> unit or not (this is in my "fully-stocked" 50 UK gall Community Planted
> Tank). My main concern is that I can't quite get to grips with the idea of
> pumping in CO2 with fish requiring Oxygen - what happens at night was the
> main concern. And yes I know that during daylight hours the plants will
> produce O2 so it won't (or shouldn't) be an issue at that point. I went as
> far as going out and buying a CO2 unit and then I saw your post and at the
> moment it's still in its box.
>
> The arguements for doing it is that it will promote plant growth and I
> should overcome the algae problem...the negatives are that I have a very
> fine balance in the tank and it might push it the other way...what I did was
> add the SAE's and with the Pl*c, more plants and plant food the amount of
> maintenance I have to do on the algae is reduced - I still need to do it
> once/twice a week but it is nothing compared to what I had to do in the
> past....and of course keep up the water changes. I'm also thinking of adding
> additional filtration to help with this - currently have a Fluval 304
> external.
>
> Now, from what I understand, the CO2 unit will continue pumping in the CO2
> irrespective of power as it is a chemical reaction so even if there was a
> power cut this will carry on. If oxygenation is the most important issue
> during a power failure in a "fully-stocked" tank then simply by having a CO2
> unit changing the balance, from what I understand from NetMax's post, the
> problems of Oxygen starvation will occur quicker. Maybe this is another
> factor to consider when putting in a CO2 unit - at the moment I'm swinging
> towards more maintenance and writing off plants from time to time rather
> than risking the fish....

You could always set up a pressurised CO2 cylinder with pH controller.
This makes CO2 injection a no-brainer. When there's a power cut the
solenoid simply cuts off the CO2 supply. It's far safer in many
respects, and takes out the guesswork.

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>> "dfreas" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>>For a perfect example of what would happen in an overstocked CO2
>>>injected tank if the power went out see my recent post "Another reason
>>>for keeping inverts" you can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/6uasl
>>>
>>>The power didn't go out but I did intentionally turn off the surface
>>>agitation (the only non-plant source of aeration in the tank) and
>>>several bad things happened all at once. O2 concentration dropped, CO2
>>>concentration hit toxic levels (around 50ppm), and the pH fell through
>>>the floor. This happened in about 8 hours and I suspect if I had not
>>>realized what was happening when I checked the tank that morning I
>>>would have come home from work to a tank full of dead fish.
>>>
>>>-Daniel
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I followed this thread and it was one of the things that prompted
>> me to
>> ask the question. A few weeks ago I posted about whether to put in a
>> CO2
>> unit or not (this is in my "fully-stocked" 50 UK gall Community
>> Planted
>> Tank). My main concern is that I can't quite get to grips with the
>> idea of
>> pumping in CO2 with fish requiring Oxygen - what happens at night was
>> the
>> main concern. And yes I know that during daylight hours the plants
>> will
>> produce O2 so it won't (or shouldn't) be an issue at that point. I
>> went as
>> far as going out and buying a CO2 unit and then I saw your post and at
>> the
>> moment it's still in its box.
>>
>> The arguements for doing it is that it will promote plant growth and I
>> should overcome the algae problem...the negatives are that I have a
>> very
>> fine balance in the tank and it might push it the other way...what I
>> did was
>> add the SAE's and with the Pl*c, more plants and plant food the amount
>> of
>> maintenance I have to do on the algae is reduced - I still need to do
>> it
>> once/twice a week but it is nothing compared to what I had to do in
>> the
>> past....and of course keep up the water changes. I'm also thinking of
>> adding
>> additional filtration to help with this - currently have a Fluval 304
>> external.
>>
>> Now, from what I understand, the CO2 unit will continue pumping in the
>> CO2
>> irrespective of power as it is a chemical reaction so even if there
>> was a
>> power cut this will carry on. If oxygenation is the most important
>> issue
>> during a power failure in a "fully-stocked" tank then simply by having
>> a CO2
>> unit changing the balance, from what I understand from NetMax's post,
>> the
>> problems of Oxygen starvation will occur quicker. Maybe this is
>> another
>> factor to consider when putting in a CO2 unit - at the moment I'm
>> swinging
>> towards more maintenance and writing off plants from time to time
>> rather
>> than risking the fish....
>
> You could always set up a pressurised CO2 cylinder with pH controller.
> This makes CO2 injection a no-brainer. When there's a power cut the
> solenoid simply cuts off the CO2 supply. It's far safer in many
> respects, and takes out the guesswork.
>
> Nikki


Exactly, and while I haven't tried it, you could even set it up without a
pH controller and just have it and the tanks lights on the same timer.
This would take a bit more tweaking (adjusting the rate of bubbling) but
should be workable because in most applications, you can get the growth
rate needed before the pH dives. You don't really need plant growth at a
rate where you need to harvest the excess on a weekly basis, so what you
are adjusting to is a nominal growth rate and not a minimum pH level.
Some familiarity with your water's buffer characteristics would give you
the confidence to take a low-tech approach using hi-tech equipment (CO2
cylinders).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gfishery]

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
> Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
> lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
> before the fish are gasping at the surface.

My fantails almost never come up to the surface for air.
The Oranda does occasionally, but only if it sees me near the tank.
If I sneak a peek from around a wall, they go about their normal activity
(tring to find something in the gravel, etc).
Could this "gasping at the surface" thing be a learned behavior (i.e. Oranda
is expecting food when I go near the tank) instead of an actual need for
air? You know, like Pavlov's Dog.

Another example:
I was at a Chinese restaurant recently.
Indoor pond, about 10 feet in diameter, about 2 feet deep, with a
hill/island in the middle (about 3 feet in diameter, about 5 feet high).
volume = (pi * 5^2 * 2) - (pi * 1.5^2 * 2) , so about 150 gallons to 200
gallons?

Many fish (including some with fantails and some Koi (a couple were over 1
foot long!), turtle, frog, etc), I'd say about 20 to 30 fish.
(Did someone recommend 100 gallons per Koi?)

These fish only come to the surface and gasp for air when somebody walks to
the edge and looks down at them.
They follow you around the pond, gasping at the surface, if you walk around
the perimeter of the pond.
I think they want some food.

> www.NetMax.tk

Great website with a lot of very useful info, NetMax!
Thanks!

[NetMax]

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
news.net...
>
> "NetMax" wrote in message
> ...
>> Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
>> lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how
>> long
>> before the fish are gasping at the surface.
>
> My fantails almost never come up to the surface for air.
> The Oranda does occasionally, but only if it sees me near the tank.
> If I sneak a peek from around a wall, they go about their normal
> activity
> (tring to find something in the gravel, etc).
> Could this "gasping at the surface" thing be a learned behavior (i.e.
> Oranda
> is expecting food when I go near the tank) instead of an actual need
> for
> air? You know, like Pavlov's Dog.
>
> Another example:
> I was at a Chinese restaurant recently.
> Indoor pond, about 10 feet in diameter, about 2 feet deep, with a
> hill/island in the middle (about 3 feet in diameter, about 5 feet
> high).
> volume = (pi * 5^2 * 2) - (pi * 1.5^2 * 2) , so about 150 gallons to
> 200
> gallons?
>
> Many fish (including some with fantails and some Koi (a couple were
> over 1
> foot long!), turtle, frog, etc), I'd say about 20 to 30 fish.
> (Did someone recommend 100 gallons per Koi?)
>
> These fish only come to the surface and gasp for air when somebody
> walks to
> the edge and looks down at them.
> They follow you around the pond, gasping at the surface, if you walk
> around
> the perimeter of the pond.
> I think they want some food.
>
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
> Great website with a lot of very useful info, NetMax!
> Thanks!


Agreed, that type of 'gasping' is just begging for food ;~). Glad you
found the site useful.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[David]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:27:29 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:
[Big snip]
>
>All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but I
>can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
>which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
>available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
>Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
>problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc etc.
>
>Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
>lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
>before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
>it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
>might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to get
>home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
>Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
>tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
>were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power there
>didn't fail at the same time. You decide.

Hi NetMax,
When I read your above post a few days ago, I thought, now that's a
really clever idea -- I made a double-asterisk note of your test as
something to not forget. Now, after a few days of thinking,
(sometimes I'm not real quick), I'm wondering -- what happens to all
those nitrification bacteria during this test, that we worked so hard
to cultivate? Do they gasp before or after the fish gasp? (Somewhere
I read that they start going in minutes...?) What's real?
Regards, David

[Nikki Casali]

David wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:27:29 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
> [Big snip]
>
>>All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but I
>>can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
>>which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
>>available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
>>Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
>>problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc etc.
>>
>>Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
>>lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
>>before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
>>it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
>>might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to get
>>home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
>>Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
>>tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
>>were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power there
>>didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
>
>
> Hi NetMax,
> When I read your above post a few days ago, I thought, now that's a
> really clever idea -- I made a double-asterisk note of your test as
> something to not forget. Now, after a few days of thinking,
> (sometimes I'm not real quick), I'm wondering -- what happens to all
> those nitrification bacteria during this test, that we worked so hard
> to cultivate? Do they gasp before or after the fish gasp? (Somewhere
> I read that they start going in minutes...?) What's real?

I couldn't put my fish through that test. I'd be like refusing my cats
water until they started gasping!

But, I had the power go off for a couple of hours last year and the
ammonia and nitrite levels remained at zero for the following days. So
no visible harm done.

Nikki

[NetMax]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> David wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:27:29 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>> [Big snip]
>>
>>>All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances,
>>>but I can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost
>>>every issue which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of
>>>compensation available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep
>>>community fish. Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank.
>>>Water pollution problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and
>>>water changes etc etc.
>>>
>>>Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
>>>lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how
>>>long before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an
>>>under-stocked tank, it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an
>>>over-stocked tank, it might be less than an hour. Either way, this is
>>>the time you have to get home to the tank during a power failure
>>>before fish start dying off. Figure out yourself how much time you
>>>want to give yourself to reach the tank. Would you want it to last
>>>one hour, or perhaps overnight if you were sleeping, perhaps half a
>>>day if you were at work and the power there didn't fail at the same
>>>time. You decide.
>>
>>
>> Hi NetMax,
>> When I read your above post a few days ago, I thought, now that's a
>> really clever idea -- I made a double-asterisk note of your test as
>> something to not forget. Now, after a few days of thinking,
>> (sometimes I'm not real quick), I'm wondering -- what happens to all
>> those nitrification bacteria during this test, that we worked so hard
>> to cultivate? Do they gasp before or after the fish gasp? (Somewhere
>> I read that they start going in minutes...?) What's real?
>
> I couldn't put my fish through that test. I'd be like refusing my cats
> water until they started gasping!
>
> But, I had the power go off for a couple of hours last year and the
> ammonia and nitrite levels remained at zero for the following days. So
> no visible harm done.
>
> Nikki


I don't think you need to worry as much about the aerobic bacteria. I
read somewhere that bacteria can even go into a dormant stage. In a
canister filter it becomes a mess overnight, but I suspect that has more
to do with an explosion of the anaerobic bacteria (giving you that rotten
egg smell), than the aerobic bacteria. In any case, a tank can take a
considerable hit in the bacteria culture and bounce back in a few days.
Any bacteria which are lining the glass, leaves, decorations, substrate
etc will be fine. You just starting losing them from the core of filter
media furthest from the water's surface and without any flow (which is
why canisters take such a hit).

To Nikki, I don't think they would suffer if the tank was under
observation from a discrete distance (you don't want them attracted to
your presence), and you intervened when it was necessary. They go
through several stages, first deafened by the silence, then they seem to
get very wary slowly exploring the greater information gathered by their
lateral line (without that 'white noise' of the filter systems). If
territorial fish, there is usually a truce of sorts. Then later they
start slowing down and migrating towards the surface (a behaviour which
varies a lot by species). They probably are not even very aware of what
is actually happening, except that it's very quiet and breathing requires
less effort closer to the surface. At this point (especially with
bottom-feeders), I can turn on the filters, having a good idea of the
time left.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gfishery]

I wrote in message
news.net...
> volume = (pi * 5^2 * 2) - (pi * 1.5^2 * 2) , so about 150 gallons to 200
> gallons?

Oops. Make that about 1000 U.S. gallons of water.
I wish we would use metric here.

[sophie]

In message >, NetMax
> writes
>
<snip>
>
>All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but I
>can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
>which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
>available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
>Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
>problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc etc.
>
>Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
>lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
>before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked tank,
>it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
>might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to get
>home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
>Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach the
>tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
>were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power there
>didn't fail at the same time. You decide.

do you know, I had read this and was thinking about the implications for
my overstocked tank. It's 13 US gallons and has in it enough fish to
make most people worry. There are 5 black kuhlis. I worked on the
principle that they don't share tank space with the other fish in there,
so I was going to check the biological filtration was up to it, and then
stock. There's a dwarf gourami. And then there are seven rasboras, who I
think are lambchops, though there's a possibility that they're
harlequins, so I know I need to keep on eye on whether they've got
enough space. But anyway. The biological filtration is working fine,
nitrates are around 12.5 though they creep up a little if I miss water
changes (though not much, I have to say, which I think must be down to
the plants). The fish don't seem stressed. Then your post made me
worry... And today, I got home from work and found that the power had
been off for over an hour. Kuhlis were doing normal kuhli things, the
rasboras were in a tight, fairly immobile school low in the tank (which
is unusual because they usually hang about around the middle) and the
gourami was hiding in the plants. Another hour later, the kuhlis were
still doing normal kuhli things, the rasboras were schooling a little
less tightly and were a little more mobile and the gourami was
patrolling the tank. No-one was gasping at the surface. Shortly after
that the power came back on, but I was pleased to find out that this
small tank had the oxygen in it to support that many fish for two hours
with no signs of distress at all. I might do it deliberately one day
just to find out exactly how long they could last!

--
sophie

[NetMax]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, NetMax
> > writes
>>
> <snip>
>>
>>All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but
>>I
>>can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
>>which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
>>available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
>>Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
>>problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc
>>etc.
>>
>>Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
>>lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
>>before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked
>>tank,
>>it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
>>might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to
>>get
>>home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
>>Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach
>>the
>>tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
>>were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power
>>there
>>didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
>
> do you know, I had read this and was thinking about the implications
> for my overstocked tank. It's 13 US gallons and has in it enough fish
> to make most people worry. There are 5 black kuhlis. I worked on the
> principle that they don't share tank space with the other fish in
> there, so I was going to check the biological filtration was up to it,
> and then stock. There's a dwarf gourami. And then there are seven
> rasboras, who I think are lambchops, though there's a possibility that
> they're harlequins, so I know I need to keep on eye on whether they've
> got enough space. But anyway. The biological filtration is working
> fine, nitrates are around 12.5 though they creep up a little if I miss
> water changes (though not much, I have to say, which I think must be
> down to the plants). The fish don't seem stressed. Then your post made
> me worry... And today, I got home from work and found that the power
> had been off for over an hour. Kuhlis were doing normal kuhli things,
> the rasboras were in a tight, fairly immobile school low in the tank
> (which is unusual because they usually hang about around the middle)
> and the gourami was hiding in the plants. Another hour later, the
> kuhlis were still doing normal kuhli things, the rasboras were
> schooling a little less tightly and were a little more mobile and the
> gourami was patrolling the tank. No-one was gasping at the surface.
> Shortly after that the power came back on, but I was pleased to find
> out that this small tank had the oxygen in it to support that many fish
> for two hours with no signs of distress at all. I might do it
> deliberately one day just to find out exactly how long they could last!
>
> --
> sophie

I'm glad you found the information useful. Small fish as you described
might find complete equilibrium in your tank, especially anytime past
noon where natural plants would have bumped up the O2 levels. For
comparison, the crowded goldfish feeder tanks you see in stores might be
good for about 15 minutes, and tetras in a planted tank would simply not
exhibit any difference for any length of time. Replace those tetras with
cichlids of greater mass and the situation changes.

Of the fish described, by virtue of their mobility and/or labyrinth
organ, the most susceptible to harm is the Kuhlis, stuck at the bottom
where there would be the least O2 eventually.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "sophie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In message >, NetMax
> > > writes
> >>
> > <snip>
> >>
> >>All of the above and none of the above, depending on circumstances, but
> >>I
> >>can offer you an easy test. The problem is that for almost every issue
> >>which comes from over-stocking, there is some kind of compensation
> >>available to us. Territorial problems (?), keep community fish.
> >>Cross-species problems(?), have a single-species tank. Water pollution
> >>problems(?), increase filtration, maintenance and water changes etc
> >>etc.
> >>
> >>Here is a fool-proof litmus test. Turn off the power to the tank (no
> >>lights, heater, filters or circulation of any kind). Now time how long
> >>before the fish are gasping at the surface. With an under-stocked
> >>tank,
> >>it could be hours (if it even occurs) and in an over-stocked tank, it
> >>might be less than an hour. Either way, this is the time you have to
> >>get
> >>home to the tank during a power failure before fish start dying off.
> >>Figure out yourself how much time you want to give yourself to reach
> >>the
> >>tank. Would you want it to last one hour, or perhaps overnight if you
> >>were sleeping, perhaps half a day if you were at work and the power
> >>there
> >>didn't fail at the same time. You decide.
> >
> > do you know, I had read this and was thinking about the implications
> > for my overstocked tank. It's 13 US gallons and has in it enough fish
> > to make most people worry. There are 5 black kuhlis. I worked on the
> > principle that they don't share tank space with the other fish in
> > there, so I was going to check the biological filtration was up to it,
> > and then stock. There's a dwarf gourami. And then there are seven
> > rasboras, who I think are lambchops, though there's a possibility that
> > they're harlequins, so I know I need to keep on eye on whether they've
> > got enough space. But anyway. The biological filtration is working
> > fine, nitrates are around 12.5 though they creep up a little if I miss
> > water changes (though not much, I have to say, which I think must be
> > down to the plants). The fish don't seem stressed. Then your post made
> > me worry... And today, I got home from work and found that the power
> > had been off for over an hour. Kuhlis were doing normal kuhli things,
> > the rasboras were in a tight, fairly immobile school low in the tank
> > (which is unusual because they usually hang about around the middle)
> > and the gourami was hiding in the plants. Another hour later, the
> > kuhlis were still doing normal kuhli things, the rasboras were
> > schooling a little less tightly and were a little more mobile and the
> > gourami was patrolling the tank. No-one was gasping at the surface.
> > Shortly after that the power came back on, but I was pleased to find
> > out that this small tank had the oxygen in it to support that many fish
> > for two hours with no signs of distress at all. I might do it
> > deliberately one day just to find out exactly how long they could last!
> >
> > --
> > sophie
>
> I'm glad you found the information useful. Small fish as you described
> might find complete equilibrium in your tank, especially anytime past
> noon where natural plants would have bumped up the O2 levels. For
> comparison, the crowded goldfish feeder tanks you see in stores might be
> good for about 15 minutes, and tetras in a planted tank would simply not
> exhibit any difference for any length of time. Replace those tetras with
> cichlids of greater mass and the situation changes.
>
> Of the fish described, by virtue of their mobility and/or labyrinth
> organ, the most susceptible to harm is the Kuhlis, stuck at the bottom
> where there would be the least O2 eventually.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
We accidentally didn't plug the pump back in after maintenance....temp was
around 87F-89F, salt and Ick treatment in the water - the worst conditions
imaginable....It is a planted tank and the Community Tank 1 that I referred
to in an earlier update.

Over 14 hours before we discovered.....feeling incredibly guilty about
this....only loss was one Neon Tetra who might have had a problem with the
salt and formaldehyde from the Ick treatement....2 platys had already
succumbed

Most were close to the surface including eventually the Pl*co who never,
ever leaves his cave in daylight....

Added an air stone - plus the pump had been back on around 5 hours prior to
me coming home and taking this action.....

Conclusion - not a good test and very irresponsible and one I would never do
deliberately...but on the basis of this "litmus" test the balance in the
tank is sufficient to sustain the stocking level - especially if it was
under normal conditions....

BTW the Ick came coz I was stupid enough to mix LFS water even knowing that
they had an Ick problem in some of their other tanks....a lesson hard learnt