Cycled already?

[kiwitetra]

Hello everyone...

6 days ago I setup my 25G tank with plants and 5 neon tetras. It was a 2nd hand setup I had bought and had been empty for 3 weeks. The pump that came with it was a Eheim Pro II 2026. I only changed the white foam filter in this as the pump was only 6 months old according to the guy I brought it off.
Today I did my first test for ammonia etc. My results for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all came back at 0ppm.
Has my tank cycled already or has it not even started yet?
Have never done this before and only going on info I have read on the net I was expecting maybe a small ammonia lvl and maybe some trace nitrites.

Any advice appreciated :)

[Tom Randy]

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 05:02:37 +0100, kiwitetra wrote:

>
> Hello everyone...
>
> 6 days ago I setup my 25G tank with plants and 5 neon tetras. It was a 2nd
> hand setup I had bought and had been empty for 3 weeks. The pump that came
> with it was a Eheim Pro II 2026. I only changed the white foam filter in
> this as the pump was only 6 months old according to the guy I brought it
> off.
> Today I did my first test for ammonia etc. My results for ammonia, nitrite
> and nitrate all came back at 0ppm. Has my tank cycled already or has it
> not even started yet? Have never done this before and only going on info I
> have read on the net I was expecting maybe a small ammonia lvl and maybe
> some trace nitrites.
>
> Any advice appreciated :)


Hasn't started yet it seems to me. You need to see NitrAtes, that's a tip
off to me at least. 5-20ppm. Hmmmmmm....

[dfreas]

Not only has it not started it may not ever start. You have over five
gallons of water per fish, the fish you have are known for not making
much pollution at all and you have plants in your tank. In this
situation the plants are probably able to eat any ammonia the tetras
are producing before the bacteria even get a shot at it.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that. The way you have this tank
set up it may be a couple months before you see ammonia or nitrates if
you ever do. In fact I would be willing to bet that if you have healthy
well growing plants you will never see any of either. If you are
planning on adding more fish go ahead and add a few to speed up the
process. If you aren't planning on adding more fish then
congratulations - you have quite possibly just created the lowest
maintenance tank you will ever have.

If you want advice on how to proceed from here then tell us what plants
you have and how many of them, how bright your light is (how many
watts), and finally what additional fish you plan to add. If you do
that then someone can tell you which fish are safe to add now and which
you should wait a little bit on.

Good job on being responsible. With the recent discussions on
overstocking this is the first example of a new aquariast starting
slowly (like you're supposed to) that I've seen in a while. I'm sure
your tank will be successful.

-Daniel

[NetMax]

"kiwitetra" > wrote in
message .. .
>
> Hello everyone...
>
> 6 days ago I setup my 25G tank with plants and 5 neon tetras. It was a
> 2nd hand setup I had bought and had been empty for 3 weeks. The pump
> that came with it was a Eheim Pro II 2026. I only changed the white
> foam filter in this as the pump was only 6 months old according to the
> guy I brought it off.
> Today I did my first test for ammonia etc. My results for ammonia,
> nitrite and nitrate all came back at 0ppm.
> Has my tank cycled already or has it not even started yet?
> Have never done this before and only going on info I have read on the
> net I was expecting maybe a small ammonia lvl and maybe some trace
> nitrites.
>
> Any advice appreciated :)
>
>
> --
> kiwitetra

Between your low fish-load (5 Neons in 25g) and your existing waste
processing capabilities (live plants) your 'cycling' might stay under the
test kit's threshold, and if it even occurs (the cycling), it could take
a much longer time than normal. The bad news is that you've established
a set-up which might make it difficult to quantify the cycling. The good
news is that it might not matter, and the fish will never be exposed to
any measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.

Overall this isn't a problem is you're willing to leave the tank alone
for about 6 weeks (or not to significantly change the fish-load).
However, if you wanted to ramp-up your fish-load more aggressively, then
this strategy lacks the chemical cues to direct your activities with
confidence.

Let us know what your plans are (fish introductions and timing of) and
tell us a bit about your plants (how many, how well they are doing and
your lighting), and I'm sure we can give you more precise advice going
forward.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[kiwitetra]

"kiwitetra" wrote in
message .. .

Hello everyone...

6 days ago I setup my 25G tank with plants and 5 neon tetras. It was a
2nd hand setup I had bought and had been empty for 3 weeks. The pump
that came with it was a Eheim Pro II 2026. I only changed the white
foam filter in this as the pump was only 6 months old according to the
guy I brought it off.
Today I did my first test for ammonia etc. My results for ammonia,
nitrite and nitrate all came back at 0ppm.
Has my tank cycled already or has it not even started yet?
Have never done this before and only going on info I have read on the
net I was expecting maybe a small ammonia lvl and maybe some trace
nitrites.

Any advice appreciated :)


--
kiwitetra

Between your low fish-load (5 Neons in 25g) and your existing waste
processing capabilities (live plants) your 'cycling' might stay under the
test kit's threshold, and if it even occurs (the cycling), it could take
a much longer time than normal. The bad news is that you've established
a set-up which might make it difficult to quantify the cycling. The good
news is that it might not matter, and the fish will never be exposed to
any measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.

Overall this isn't a problem is you're willing to leave the tank alone
for about 6 weeks (or not to significantly change the fish-load).
However, if you wanted to ramp-up your fish-load more aggressively, then
this strategy lacks the chemical cues to direct your activities with
confidence.

Let us know what your plans are (fish introductions and timing of) and
tell us a bit about your plants (how many, how well they are doing and
your lighting), and I'm sure we can give you more precise advice going
forward.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thankyou for your replies.

My tank is a hexagonal design, approx 20" across by 24" high.
The light has 2 x 8W 12" long Aqua-Glo tubes. The light is on 11 hrs a day, 12pm - 11pm.

I'm sorry but I don't know the names of the plants. I just bought a selection of 10 from the "10 plants for $15.00" tank. My lfs suggested this to see how well they grow before buying the more expensive plants. The plants have had approx 10-15% growth in the first week, some more than others. Is this about average?

I only have small pebbles in my tank (approx 3/8", 10mm size), is this small enough for plants to root into?

Ok now to the fish...

My plan is to have a small community tank and I am open to suggestions about what fish to put in, how many, and at what time intervals to do this.

Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot and cold tap and a thermometer?

One final thing, do I need an air pump? Because my tank is tall and not long the pipe feeding the water into the tank is totally submerged so there is no splash. I'm concerned the plants may not be adding enough oxygen for my fish. Once again, probably not an issue now but once more fish are added it might be.

Thanks for your time.

[NetMax]

"kiwitetra" > wrote in
message .. .
>
> NetMax Wrote:
>> "kiwitetra" wrote in
>> message .. .-
>>
>> Hello everyone...
>>
>> 6 days ago I setup my 25G tank with plants and 5 neon tetras. It was
>> a
>> 2nd hand setup I had bought and had been empty for 3 weeks. The pump
>> that came with it was a Eheim Pro II 2026. I only changed the white
>> foam filter in this as the pump was only 6 months old according to
>> the
>> guy I brought it off.
>> Today I did my first test for ammonia etc. My results for ammonia,
>> nitrite and nitrate all came back at 0ppm.
>> Has my tank cycled already or has it not even started yet?
>> Have never done this before and only going on info I have read on the
>> net I was expecting maybe a small ammonia lvl and maybe some trace
>> nitrites.
>>
>> Any advice appreciated :)
>>
>>
>> --
>> kiwitetra-
>>
>> Between your low fish-load (5 Neons in 25g) and your existing waste
>> processing capabilities (live plants) your 'cycling' might stay under
>> the
>> test kit's threshold, and if it even occurs (the cycling), it could
>> take
>> a much longer time than normal. The bad news is that you've
>> established
>> a set-up which might make it difficult to quantify the cycling. The
>> good
>> news is that it might not matter, and the fish will never be exposed
>> to
>> any measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.
>>
>> Overall this isn't a problem is you're willing to leave the tank alone
>> for about 6 weeks (or not to significantly change the fish-load).
>> However, if you wanted to ramp-up your fish-load more aggressively,
>> then
>> this strategy lacks the chemical cues to direct your activities with
>> confidence.
>>
>> Let us know what your plans are (fish introductions and timing of) and
>> tell us a bit about your plants (how many, how well they are doing and
>> your lighting), and I'm sure we can give you more precise advice going
>> forward.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>
> Thankyou for your replies.
>
> My tank is a hexagonal design, approx 20" across by 24" high.
> The light has 2 x 8W 12" long Aqua-Glo tubes. The light is on 11 hrs a
> day, 12pm - 11pm.

You have 16w of light in a 25g penetrating 24" deep. This is a low light
tank. Experimenting with different types will hit on a few successes. I
had a 32g hex of similar dimensions grow Pennywort and Amazon swords
quite well.

> I'm sorry but I don't know the names of the plants. I just bought a
> selection of 10 from the "10 plants for $15.00" tank. My lfs suggested
> this to see how well they grow before buying the more expensive plants.
> The plants have had approx 10-15% growth in the first week, some more
> than others. Is this about average?

There probably does not exist an 'average' to compare with. I think
plants can sustain a short growth period independant of their current
conditions, based on the sugars they have stored, so the growth might
change in the next few weeks. Don't expect all the plants to do well,
they never do, even in ideal conditions.

> I only have small pebbles in my tank (approx 3/8", 10mm size), is this
> small enough for plants to root into?

New sterile 3/8" gravel pebbles are probably not ideal ;~), but you have
to start somewhere. A smaller size pebble would probably have been
kinder to the plant roots. There are lots of low light Anubius which
will do great in that. You'll just have to see how it goes (or how it
grows).

> Ok now to the fish...
>
> My plan is to have a small community tank and I am open to suggestions
> about what fish to put in, how many, and at what time intervals to do
> this.

Harlequin rasboras shoal nicely in a tank this size. Also think about
Otos, Pygmy Corys, Coolies, Hatchetfish, very small Gouramis (Chocolate,
Licorice or Dwarf)... that kind of fish. Ideally you have a 10g tank
somewhere to quarantine these new arrivals as you get them. After 4 to 6
weeks of no ammonia or nitrites, and possibly (hopefully) some nitrate
measurements, you can double the fish-load every week (or adding 4-5 fish
a week).

> Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
> going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
> comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
> to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
> and cold tap and a thermometer?

You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants.
For the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often
the water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate
levels, but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically
then, try to do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many
things which you cannot neccesarily measure.

> One final thing, do I need an air pump? Because my tank is tall and not
> long the pipe feeding the water into the tank is totally submerged so
> there is no splash. I'm concerned the plants may not be adding enough
> oxygen for my fish. Once again, probably not an issue now but once more
> fish are added it might be.

Wouldn't hurt, but with a light fish-load (keeping to small fish), it's
probably not neccesary. The O2 comes through the water's surface, so the
filter needs to keep some surface movement, and circulate the water
downwards.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> Thanks for your time.
>
>
> --
> kiwitetra

[kiwitetra]

"kiwitetra" wrote in
message .. .

NetMax Wrote:
"kiwitetra" wrote in
message .. .-

Hello everyone...

6 days ago I setup my 25G tank with plants and 5 neon tetras. It was
a
2nd hand setup I had bought and had been empty for 3 weeks. The pump
that came with it was a Eheim Pro II 2026. I only changed the white
foam filter in this as the pump was only 6 months old according to
the
guy I brought it off.
Today I did my first test for ammonia etc. My results for ammonia,
nitrite and nitrate all came back at 0ppm.
Has my tank cycled already or has it not even started yet?
Have never done this before and only going on info I have read on the
net I was expecting maybe a small ammonia lvl and maybe some trace
nitrites.

Any advice appreciated :)


--
kiwitetra-

Between your low fish-load (5 Neons in 25g) and your existing waste
processing capabilities (live plants) your 'cycling' might stay under
the
test kit's threshold, and if it even occurs (the cycling), it could
take
a much longer time than normal. The bad news is that you've
established
a set-up which might make it difficult to quantify the cycling. The
good
news is that it might not matter, and the fish will never be exposed
to
any measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.

Overall this isn't a problem is you're willing to leave the tank alone
for about 6 weeks (or not to significantly change the fish-load).
However, if you wanted to ramp-up your fish-load more aggressively,
then
this strategy lacks the chemical cues to direct your activities with
confidence.

Let us know what your plans are (fish introductions and timing of) and
tell us a bit about your plants (how many, how well they are doing and
your lighting), and I'm sure we can give you more precise advice going
forward.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thankyou for your replies.

My tank is a hexagonal design, approx 20" across by 24" high.
The light has 2 x 8W 12" long Aqua-Glo tubes. The light is on 11 hrs a
day, 12pm - 11pm.

You have 16w of light in a 25g penetrating 24" deep. This is a low light
tank. Experimenting with different types will hit on a few successes. I
had a 32g hex of similar dimensions grow Pennywort and Amazon swords
quite well.

I'm sorry but I don't know the names of the plants. I just bought a
selection of 10 from the "10 plants for $15.00" tank. My lfs suggested
this to see how well they grow before buying the more expensive plants.
The plants have had approx 10-15% growth in the first week, some more
than others. Is this about average?

There probably does not exist an 'average' to compare with. I think
plants can sustain a short growth period independant of their current
conditions, based on the sugars they have stored, so the growth might
change in the next few weeks. Don't expect all the plants to do well,
they never do, even in ideal conditions.

I only have small pebbles in my tank (approx 3/8", 10mm size), is this
small enough for plants to root into?

New sterile 3/8" gravel pebbles are probably not ideal ;~), but you have
to start somewhere. A smaller size pebble would probably have been
kinder to the plant roots. There are lots of low light Anubius which
will do great in that. You'll just have to see how it goes (or how it
grows).

Ok now to the fish...

My plan is to have a small community tank and I am open to suggestions
about what fish to put in, how many, and at what time intervals to do
this.

Harlequin rasboras shoal nicely in a tank this size. Also think about
Otos, Pygmy Corys, Coolies, Hatchetfish, very small Gouramis (Chocolate,
Licorice or Dwarf)... that kind of fish. Ideally you have a 10g tank
somewhere to quarantine these new arrivals as you get them. After 4 to 6
weeks of no ammonia or nitrites, and possibly (hopefully) some nitrate
measurements, you can double the fish-load every week (or adding 4-5 fish
a week).

Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
and cold tap and a thermometer?

You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants.
For the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often
the water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate
levels, but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically
then, try to do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many
things which you cannot neccesarily measure.

One final thing, do I need an air pump? Because my tank is tall and not
long the pipe feeding the water into the tank is totally submerged so
there is no splash. I'm concerned the plants may not be adding enough
oxygen for my fish. Once again, probably not an issue now but once more
fish are added it might be.

Wouldn't hurt, but with a light fish-load (keeping to small fish), it's
probably not neccesary. The O2 comes through the water's surface, so the
filter needs to keep some surface movement, and circulate the water
downwards.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thanks for your time.


--
kiwitetra
Thanks for your prompt reply. Lots of good advice there. After visiting my lfs I settled on increasing my number of tetras to 10. I'll just keep testing and go from there. Thanks again.

[Scott]

<snip>

>> Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
>> going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
>> comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
>> to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
>> and cold tap and a thermometer?
>
> You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
> agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
> generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
> dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
> suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants. For
> the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often the
> water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate levels,
> but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically then, try to
> do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many things which
> you cannot neccesarily measure.
>

That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the de-chlorinator to
that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to the tank
and then fill with the hose from the tap??

---scott

[Elaine T]

Scott wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>>Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
>>>going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
>>>comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
>>>to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
>>>and cold tap and a thermometer?
>>
>>You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
>>agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
>>generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
>>dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
>>suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants. For
>>the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often the
>>water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate levels,
>>but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically then, try to
>>do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many things which
>>you cannot neccesarily measure.
>>
>
>
> That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
> aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
> filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the de-chlorinator to
> that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to the tank
> and then fill with the hose from the tap??
>
> ---scott
>
>
I used to do that with DISCUS and they showed no signs of stress. I
can't think of a better measure. Dechlorinator is a very fast chemical
reaction.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Nikki Casali]

Scott wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>>Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
>>>going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
>>>comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
>>>to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
>>>and cold tap and a thermometer?
>>
>>You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
>>agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
>>generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
>>dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
>>suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants. For
>>the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often the
>>water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate levels,
>>but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically then, try to
>>do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many things which
>>you cannot neccesarily measure.
>>
>
>
> That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
> aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
> filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the de-chlorinator to
> that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to the tank
> and then fill with the hose from the tap??

Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the
dechlorinator directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10
times - 10% water change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to
neutralise the chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's purely
a guess.

Nikki

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Scott wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
> >>>going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
> >>>comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
> >>>to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
> >>>and cold tap and a thermometer?
> >>
> >>You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
> >>agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
> >>generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
> >>dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
> >>suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants.
For
> >>the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often the
> >>water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate levels,
> >>but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically then, try
to
> >>do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many things which
> >>you cannot neccesarily measure.
> >>
> >
> >
> > That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
> > aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
> > filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the de-chlorinator
to
> > that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to the
tank
> > and then fill with the hose from the tap??
>
> Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the
> dechlorinator directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10
> times - 10% water change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to
> neutralise the chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's purely
> a guess.
>
> Nikki
>
I must admit that the only thing I am comfortable with is removing the water
and then replacing it with water in buckets - already treated for
chlorine/chloramine and brought up to temp using boiled water - I don't
trust the water from the hot tap because the hot water tank is copper as is
all the piping.

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> Scott wrote:
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >>>Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet,
>> >>>and
>> >>>going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the
>> >>>time
>> >>>comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I
>> >>>need
>> >>>to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with
>> >>>hot
>> >>>and cold tap and a thermometer?
>> >>
>> >>You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
>> >>agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
>> >>generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
>> >>dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
>> >>suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under
>> >>plants.
> For
>> >>the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often
>> >>the
>> >>water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate
>> >>levels,
>> >>but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically then,
>> >>try
> to
>> >>do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many things
>> >>which
>> >>you cannot neccesarily measure.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
>> > aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks
>> > by
>> > filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the
>> > de-chlorinator
> to
>> > that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to
>> > the
> tank
>> > and then fill with the hose from the tap??
>>
>> Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the
>> dechlorinator directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10
>> times - 10% water change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to
>> neutralise the chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's
>> purely
>> a guess.
>>
>> Nikki
>>
> I must admit that the only thing I am comfortable with is removing the
> water
> and then replacing it with water in buckets - already treated for
> chlorine/chloramine and brought up to temp using boiled water - I don't
> trust the water from the hot tap because the hot water tank is copper
> as is
> all the piping.


Our water change system was automated, but not our gravel vacuuming ;~),
so the drill was to do about 1 bank of tanks at a time (about 180g, and
30 to 50% water change) and then go around squirting de-chlorinator in,
and then refill them all with temperature-adjusted tap water. The store
was new (new hot water tank, new copper plumbing), the municipality was
new (chloramines around 2.5ppm), the water changes were relatively large
(up to 50%), and the fish were almost every type imaginable in the trade
(including the more delicate types). I think that's a worst-case
scenario (compared to a home tank) and we never observed any problems
with this procedure. ymmv

In another case, I treated a 60g tank of Tiger barbs with very aggressive
water changes (about 90% twice a day) using the same procedure above (I
was slowing down the advancement of a disease to give the antibiotics a
chance to work). They were cured, and even in their stressed condition I
couldn't attribute any losses to the water change method. ymmv
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Scott]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Scott wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet, and
>>>>going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the time
>>>>comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I need
>>>>to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with hot
>>>>and cold tap and a thermometer?
>>>
>>>You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
>>>agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
>>>generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
>>>dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
>>>suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under plants.
>>>For the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to how often
>>>the water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go by nitrate
>>>levels, but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero. Typically
>>>then, try to do about 20% water change per week. It is to thin out many
>>>things which you cannot neccesarily measure.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
>> aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
>> filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the de-chlorinator
>> to that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to add the chems to the
>> tank and then fill with the hose from the tap??
>
> Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the dechlorinator
> directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10 times - 10% water
> change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to neutralise the
> chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's purely a guess.
>
> Nikki
>

That was the issue I was wrestling with - the dilution of the chems to
neutralise chlorine. I would not necessarily agree with it taking 10 times
longer to take effect, though that it not outside of the range of
speculation. Maybe adding the dechlorinator to the tank and allowing time
for circulation vis-a-vis the filter itself would be wiser, then adding the
water from the tap?? I have no qualms with following the advice of NetMax
from my lurking on the newsgroup for several weeks, but I wonder about any
residual effects from stray amounts of chlorine or chloramine that do not
get neutralized immediately. Obviously if you dump anything into a pool of
water, it will take time to distribute evenly, IHMO.

OTOH, since two of the more more prolific posters, and the ones that seem to
have the most knowledge on keeping fish tanks seem to agree on this - I
think I will go along. It will sure save my back some strain!!

---scott

[NetMax]

"Scott" <smaxell1{at}hotmail.com> wrote in message
...
>
> "Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> Scott wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>>Also i guess I should mention I haven't done any water changes yet,
>>>>>and
>>>>>going by my water results I don't think thats an issue. When the
>>>>>time
>>>>>comes to do a water change what is the best way to do this? Do I
>>>>>need
>>>>>to buy another heater to get the tempature right, or just play with
>>>>>hot
>>>>>and cold tap and a thermometer?
>>>>
>>>>You're asking these questions as if there will be a definitive and
>>>>agreed-upon answer to them all ;~). Many opinions vary, but imo,
>>>>generally for municipal water, you can just play with the taps and
>>>>dechlorinate in the tank. Gravel vacuum with some type of pipe with
>>>>suction (look at how the Python works), and don't vacuum under
>>>>plants. For the average person, there isn't any chemical clues as to
>>>>how often the water needs to be partially changed. We sometimes go
>>>>by nitrate levels, but planted tanks can keep the NO3 level at zero.
>>>>Typically then, try to do about 20% water change per week. It is to
>>>>thin out many things which you cannot neccesarily measure.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That is a question that I have hassled with since I bought my Python
>>> aquarium cleaning setup. I am still adding water to the fish tanks by
>>> filling a bucket by the tank with the hose and adding the
>>> de-chlorinator to that, then dumping into the tank. So it IS OK to
>>> add the chems to the tank and then fill with the hose from the tap??
>>
>> Personally, I'm not very comfortable with idea. Dumping the
>> dechlorinator directly into the tank means that it will be diluted 10
>> times - 10% water change. That could mean it takes 10 times longer to
>> neutralise the chlorine doing damamge in the meantime. But that's
>> purely a guess.
>>
>> Nikki
>>
>
> That was the issue I was wrestling with - the dilution of the chems to
> neutralise chlorine. I would not necessarily agree with it taking 10
> times longer to take effect, though that it not outside of the range of
> speculation. Maybe adding the dechlorinator to the tank and allowing
> time for circulation vis-a-vis the filter itself would be wiser, then
> adding the water from the tap?? I have no qualms with following the
> advice of NetMax from my lurking on the newsgroup for several weeks,
> but I wonder about any residual effects from stray amounts of chlorine
> or chloramine that do not get neutralized immediately. Obviously if you
> dump anything into a pool of water, it will take time to distribute
> evenly, IHMO.
>
> OTOH, since two of the more more prolific posters, and the ones that
> seem to have the most knowledge on keeping fish tanks seem to agree on
> this - I think I will go along. It will sure save my back some strain!!
>
> ---scott


Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that it
takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined water
with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
distribute the active molecules). These molecules stay active for a long
period of time (this may vary by recipe, but it is hours+), and will
simply float around until they bump into a chlorine/chloramine molecule.
The proportion/concentration used in their directions ensures that the
de-toxifying molecules significantly outnumber the amount of
chlorine/chloramine molecules which could be encountered, and there will
always be an excess of these de-toxifying molecules remaining.

I then asked "if these active molecules were persistent and outnumbered
the chlorinated/chloramined molecules, what affect would these molecules
have on the fish". He replied "based on lab tests, they are confident
that there is no negative effects up to the overdose test levels, which
were a factor of ten".

In case you think this fellow was just a 'mouthpiece' for a manufacturer,
he then went on to tell me all about his most recent trip through Lake
Malawi collecting cichlids. Now that's a job I could handle :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gfishery]

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .
> Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
> 'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that it
> takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined water
> with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
> difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
> the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
> distribute the active molecules).

I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and I
usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the interior
sides of the pail of water.
I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water in my
tank.
What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?

I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water straight
from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank water
over time, which may not be a good thing.

[NetMax]

"Gfishery" > wrote in message
eenews.net...
>
> "NetMax" wrote in message
> .. .
>> Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
>> 'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that
>> it
>> takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined
>> water
>> with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
>> difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
>> the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
>> distribute the active molecules).
>
> I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and
> I
> usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
> The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the
> interior
> sides of the pail of water.
> I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water
> in my
> tank.
> What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?
>
> I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water
> straight
> from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank
> water
> over time, which may not be a good thing.


Repeat exactly what you do without adding dechlorinator to see if the
bubbles occur again. Water with dissolved gases will always give you the
layer of bubbles described, so that might be it. Otherwise I don't know.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

Gfishery wrote:
> "NetMax" wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
>>'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that it
>>takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined water
>>with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
>>difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
>>the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
>>distribute the active molecules).
>
>
> I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and I
> usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
> The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the interior
> sides of the pail of water.
> I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water in my
> tank.
> What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?
>
> I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water straight
> from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank water
> over time, which may not be a good thing.
>
>
Air. Your tapwater is cold, so gas solubility is high, and most taps
have a screen aerator that drives a lot of gasses into it. Dissolved
air makes tapwater taste better to most people. As the water warms to
room temperature overnight, dissolved air comes out and bubbles form on
the sides of the pail. If you add heavily aerated cold tap water
directly to the tank, it is possible for your fish to get a nasty
condition called gas bubble disease where gas bubbles form in their skin
and fins. I've never actually seen it happen.

All you need to do to avoid trouble is warm your tap water up to tank
water temps before filling the tank from the tap. Then the gas
solubility is the same. If you can't match temperatures for some
reason, you can also let the water splash into the tank from a few
inches height rather than holding the hose below the surface to drive
off dissolved gasses. Good aeration in the tank will usually work as well.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gfishery wrote:
>> "NetMax" wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>Generally, we can only report our observations, but I did ask Hagen's
>>>'fish expert' on this one when he did a store tour. He indicated that
>>>it
>>>takes less than 10 minutes to detoxify chlorinated or chloramined
>>>water
>>>with their product (and he didn't indicate that there was any time
>>>difference with other manufacturer's products). He recommended adding
>>>the de-chlor to the tank leaving the filters running (to evenly
>>>distribute the active molecules).
>>
>>
>> I've tried TetraAqua's AquaSafe and currently use Seachem's Prime, and
>> I
>> usually add it to a bucket of water and let it age overnight.
>> The next day, there are many bubbles at the bottom and along the
>> interior
>> sides of the pail of water.
>> I stir up the water to drive those bubbles out, before using the water
>> in my
>> tank.
>> What are those bubbles? O2? CO2? NH3/4?
>>
>> I figure if I added the de-chlor directly into the tank with water
>> straight
>> from the tap, all those bubbles would be liberated into my fish tank
>> water
>> over time, which may not be a good thing.
>>
>>
> Air. Your tapwater is cold, so gas solubility is high, and most taps
> have a screen aerator that drives a lot of gasses into it. Dissolved
> air makes tapwater taste better to most people. As the water warms to
> room temperature overnight, dissolved air comes out and bubbles form on
> the sides of the pail. If you add heavily aerated cold tap water
> directly to the tank, it is possible for your fish to get a nasty
> condition called gas bubble disease where gas bubbles form in their
> skin and fins. I've never actually seen it happen.
>
> All you need to do to avoid trouble is warm your tap water up to tank
> water temps before filling the tank from the tap. Then the gas
> solubility is the same. If you can't match temperatures for some
> reason, you can also let the water splash into the tank from a few
> inches height rather than holding the hose below the surface to drive
> off dissolved gasses. Good aeration in the tank will usually work as
> well.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __


I wouldn't expect my warm water to be in equilibrium with the atmosphere,
but my water source is a deep well and I don't know where the hot water
would have been able to outgas.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gfishery]

Maybe I'm missing something here.
We don't want dissolved gases/air in our new water for the fish tank, but we
want aeration in the fish tank (for more air in the fish tank water)??

The following is probably not a good idea, but if I wanted more O2 in the
water, why not add some Hydrogen Peroxide to the water?
If I wanted more CO2 in the water, why not add a small cube of dry-ice to
the water?

[David C. Stone]

In article . net>,
Gfishery > wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something here.
> We don't want dissolved gases/air in our new water for the fish tank, but we
> want aeration in the fish tank (for more air in the fish tank water)??

I missed that part of the thread, but...

>
> The following is probably not a good idea, but if I wanted more O2 in the
> water, why not add some Hydrogen Peroxide to the water?

You don't want to drink it, and neither do your fish. Not recommended.

> If I wanted more CO2 in the water, why not add a small cube of dry-ice to
> the water?

Creates local cold spots, probably would overdose it (as there is a LOT
of CO2 in even a small block of dry ice) There are other ways to
increase CO2/carbonate if you need it - isn't the CO2 mostly for if you
have live plants?

[Elaine T]

Gfishery wrote:
> Maybe I'm missing something here.
> We don't want dissolved gases/air in our new water for the fish tank, but we
> want aeration in the fish tank (for more air in the fish tank water)??

You want the water saturated with air (and particularly O2), not
super-saturated. Rapidly warming cold water supersaturates the water.
Aeration brings it to saturation instead.
>
> The following is probably not a good idea, but if I wanted more O2 in the
> water, why not add some Hydrogen Peroxide to the water?

Peroxide is somewhat toxic. It kills bacteria, like those in your filter.

> If I wanted more CO2 in the water, why not add a small cube of dry-ice to
> the water?
>
I don't know about you, but my fish are tropicals! You can add
sparkling water, but the CO2 doesn't last for long.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[kiwitetra]

Hello everyone...

6 days ago I setup my 25G tank with plants and 5 neon tetras. It was a 2nd hand setup I had bought and had been empty for 3 weeks. The pump that came with it was a Eheim Pro II 2026. I only changed the white foam filter in this as the pump was only 6 months old according to the guy I brought it off.
Today I did my first test for ammonia etc. My results for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all came back at 0ppm.
Has my tank cycled already or has it not even started yet?
Have never done this before and only going on info I have read on the net I was expecting maybe a small ammonia lvl and maybe some trace nitrites.

Any advice appreciated :)

OK, its a week later now.

I added 5 tetras last week bringing the total to 10 to see if I could get a change in my test results. I just did the 3 tests again and they still all come back 0ppm ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Maybe I have a dud test kit? I have used Stress Zyme from the beginning.

Is it possible that my plants are still sucking up the nitrates?

Tomorrow I will add some more fish, probably 2-3 Harlequin Rasboras and will see what happens.

[Gfishery]

Elaine T wrote in message
...
> Gfishery wrote:
> > The following is probably not a good idea, but if I wanted more O2 in
the
> > water, why not add some Hydrogen Peroxide to the water?
>
> Peroxide is somewhat toxic. It kills bacteria, like those in your filter.

I guess the simplest thing is to get an air-pump and bubble air through the
water.

I don't intend to play chemistry in my fish tank, but at higher
concentrations Hydrogen Peroxide seems like a good thing to use to kill
bacteria.
But at lower concentrations, doesn't the following occur?
2(H2O2) -> 2(H2O) + O2

Or is the toll still too high on the beneficial bacteria?

[Elaine T]

Gfishery wrote:
> Elaine T wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Gfishery wrote:
>>
>>>The following is probably not a good idea, but if I wanted more O2 in
>
> the
>
>>>water, why not add some Hydrogen Peroxide to the water?
>>
>>Peroxide is somewhat toxic. It kills bacteria, like those in your filter.
>
>
> I guess the simplest thing is to get an air-pump and bubble air through the
> water.
>
> I don't intend to play chemistry in my fish tank, but at higher
> concentrations Hydrogen Peroxide seems like a good thing to use to kill
> bacteria.
> But at lower concentrations, doesn't the following occur?
> 2(H2O2) -> 2(H2O) + O2
>
> Or is the toll still too high on the beneficial bacteria?
>
>
You can't count on release of 02 because the iron in aquatic plant
fertilizers can start Fenton chemistry and cause the release of free
radicals and reactive oxygen species from peroxide.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com