Stubborn Ich problem

[Gill Passman]

Since the false imprisonment of one of my bigger Clowns by the Pl*co
(earlier post) I have had a persistent Ich infection of my four smaller
Clowns - the other two big ones, including the prisoner, are fine. All of
the other fish are still OK for the moment including the SAE's where I think
it was the adding of the water (kick me) when I bought them that introduced
the Ick.

I'm getting to my wits end trying to defeat this. So far the temp is up to
81F which is starting to upset the other inhabitants. I have dosed 3 times
with Interpet White Spot Plus and added a half dose of salt yesterday.
Another dose to follow on Saturday next week. 3 days time some more of the
White Spot Treatement.

The Clowns in question still have good colour - strong black striping and
their very beautiful irredesant orange glow. But I have noticed two of them
are starting to try and rest on the heater - IME not good and a sign that
they are using it to ease some discomfort....

My next plan, as well as the continued treatment, is to up the level of
protein in their diet - ie. more red mosquito lavae rather than the flake,
daphinia, brine shrimp they already get....but I am at a loss here...

Does anyone have any further suggestions.....

Thanks
Gill

[js1]

On 2005-04-10, Gill Passman <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
> Does anyone have any further suggestions.....
>

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Since the false imprisonment of one of my bigger Clowns by the Pl*co
> (earlier post) I have had a persistent Ich infection of my four smaller
> Clowns - the other two big ones, including the prisoner, are fine. All of
> the other fish are still OK for the moment including the SAE's where I
think
> it was the adding of the water (kick me) when I bought them that
introduced
> the Ick.
>
> I'm getting to my wits end trying to defeat this. So far the temp is up to
> 81F which is starting to upset the other inhabitants. I have dosed 3 times
> with Interpet White Spot Plus and added a half dose of salt yesterday.
> Another dose to follow on Saturday next week. 3 days time some more of the
> White Spot Treatement.
>
> The Clowns in question still have good colour - strong black striping and
> their very beautiful irredesant orange glow. But I have noticed two of
them
> are starting to try and rest on the heater - IME not good and a sign that
> they are using it to ease some discomfort....
>
> My next plan, as well as the continued treatment, is to up the level of
> protein in their diet - ie. more red mosquito lavae rather than the flake,
> daphinia, brine shrimp they already get....but I am at a loss here...
>
> Does anyone have any further suggestions.....
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>
Day 9 into the outbreak. The small clowns are still covered in white spots
but still have good colour, are eating well and swimming round the tank and
being as active as ever - a little nervous and not attacking me when I put
in the bloodworm but eating it as it sinks....tearing into cucumber as well.
One Platy is suffering a bit but I'm not sure this isn't down to a power
struggle within the tank as over the last few weeks one male has emerged as
dominant but maybe I'm kidding myself here and he also has Ich although he
has no outward signs.

Next chemical treatment due Tues/Wed and more salt on Saturday. Temp is up
as high as I am comfortable putting it 84F. Have given the filter inlet a
very good clean tonight and will add to the filtration tomorrow by putting
in the mature internal pump hanging around surplus in one of the other
tanks.

Am very worried but relieved every time I look morning and evening that they
are still around. Just hoping.....can't understand why the treatment is not
working....

[sophie]

In message >, Gill Passman
> writes
>
>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>> Since the false imprisonment of one of my bigger Clowns by the Pl*co
>> (earlier post) I have had a persistent Ich infection of my four smaller
>> Clowns - the other two big ones, including the prisoner, are fine. All of
>> the other fish are still OK for the moment including the SAE's where I
>think
>> it was the adding of the water (kick me) when I bought them that
>introduced
>> the Ick.
>>
>> I'm getting to my wits end trying to defeat this. So far the temp is up to
>> 81F which is starting to upset the other inhabitants. I have dosed 3 times
>> with Interpet White Spot Plus and added a half dose of salt yesterday.
>> Another dose to follow on Saturday next week. 3 days time some more of the
>> White Spot Treatement.
>>
>> The Clowns in question still have good colour - strong black striping and
>> their very beautiful irredesant orange glow. But I have noticed two of
>them
>> are starting to try and rest on the heater - IME not good and a sign that
>> they are using it to ease some discomfort....
>>
>> My next plan, as well as the continued treatment, is to up the level of
>> protein in their diet - ie. more red mosquito lavae rather than the flake,
>> daphinia, brine shrimp they already get....but I am at a loss here...
>>
>> Does anyone have any further suggestions.....
>>
>> Thanks
>> Gill
>>
>>
>Day 9 into the outbreak. The small clowns are still covered in white spots
>but still have good colour, are eating well and swimming round the tank and
>being as active as ever - a little nervous and not attacking me when I put
>in the bloodworm but eating it as it sinks....tearing into cucumber as well.
>One Platy is suffering a bit but I'm not sure this isn't down to a power
>struggle within the tank as over the last few weeks one male has emerged as
>dominant but maybe I'm kidding myself here and he also has Ich although he
>has no outward signs.
>
>Next chemical treatment due Tues/Wed and more salt on Saturday. Temp is up
>as high as I am comfortable putting it 84F. Have given the filter inlet a
>very good clean tonight and will add to the filtration tomorrow by putting
>in the mature internal pump hanging around surplus in one of the other
>tanks.
>
>Am very worried but relieved every time I look morning and evening that they
>are still around. Just hoping.....can't understand why the treatment is not
>working....

Hi Gill,

I think I've posted this link in the past (I love this site and the
loach forum that goes with it, but am in no way affiliated to it) - it's
a page on disease treatment aimed at loach owners, with a fair amount of
ich discussion:

http://www.loaches.com/copper.html

you might also want to check out the forum (there's a link at the top of
the page) as there's quite often a fair amount of ich conversation
there. Searching the forum's archives for "ich" should give you
mountains of info...

hth,
--
sophie

[Gill Passman]

"sophie" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Gill Passman
> > writes
> >
> >"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >> Since the false imprisonment of one of my bigger Clowns by the Pl*co
> >> (earlier post) I have had a persistent Ich infection of my four smaller
> >> Clowns - the other two big ones, including the prisoner, are fine. All
of
> >> the other fish are still OK for the moment including the SAE's where I
> >think
> >> it was the adding of the water (kick me) when I bought them that
> >introduced
> >> the Ick.
> >>
> >> I'm getting to my wits end trying to defeat this. So far the temp is up
to
> >> 81F which is starting to upset the other inhabitants. I have dosed 3
times
> >> with Interpet White Spot Plus and added a half dose of salt yesterday.
> >> Another dose to follow on Saturday next week. 3 days time some more of
the
> >> White Spot Treatement.
> >>
> >> The Clowns in question still have good colour - strong black striping
and
> >> their very beautiful irredesant orange glow. But I have noticed two of
> >them
> >> are starting to try and rest on the heater - IME not good and a sign
that
> >> they are using it to ease some discomfort....
> >>
> >> My next plan, as well as the continued treatment, is to up the level of
> >> protein in their diet - ie. more red mosquito lavae rather than the
flake,
> >> daphinia, brine shrimp they already get....but I am at a loss here...
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any further suggestions.....
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Gill
> >>
> >>
> >Day 9 into the outbreak. The small clowns are still covered in white
spots
> >but still have good colour, are eating well and swimming round the tank
and
> >being as active as ever - a little nervous and not attacking me when I
put
> >in the bloodworm but eating it as it sinks....tearing into cucumber as
well.
> >One Platy is suffering a bit but I'm not sure this isn't down to a power
> >struggle within the tank as over the last few weeks one male has emerged
as
> >dominant but maybe I'm kidding myself here and he also has Ich although
he
> >has no outward signs.
> >
> >Next chemical treatment due Tues/Wed and more salt on Saturday. Temp is
up
> >as high as I am comfortable putting it 84F. Have given the filter inlet a
> >very good clean tonight and will add to the filtration tomorrow by
putting
> >in the mature internal pump hanging around surplus in one of the other
> >tanks.
> >
> >Am very worried but relieved every time I look morning and evening that
they
> >are still around. Just hoping.....can't understand why the treatment is
not
> >working....
>
> Hi Gill,
>
> I think I've posted this link in the past (I love this site and the
> loach forum that goes with it, but am in no way affiliated to it) - it's
> a page on disease treatment aimed at loach owners, with a fair amount of
> ich discussion:
>
> http://www.loaches.com/copper.html
>
> you might also want to check out the forum (there's a link at the top of
> the page) as there's quite often a fair amount of ich conversation
> there. Searching the forum's archives for "ich" should give you
> mountains of info...
>
> hth,
> --
> sophie

I'll try posting there thanks...the problem is that I've read all this stuff
and have been treating accordingly but still can't shift it....at least they
are still alive I guess....

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:
>
> Day 9 into the outbreak. The small clowns are still covered in white spots
> but still have good colour, are eating well and swimming round the tank and
> being as active as ever - a little nervous and not attacking me when I put
> in the bloodworm but eating it as it sinks....tearing into cucumber as well.
> One Platy is suffering a bit but I'm not sure this isn't down to a power
> struggle within the tank as over the last few weeks one male has emerged as
> dominant but maybe I'm kidding myself here and he also has Ich although he
> has no outward signs.
>
> Next chemical treatment due Tues/Wed and more salt on Saturday. Temp is up
> as high as I am comfortable putting it 84F. Have given the filter inlet a
> very good clean tonight and will add to the filtration tomorrow by putting
> in the mature internal pump hanging around surplus in one of the other
> tanks.
>
> Am very worried but relieved every time I look morning and evening that they
> are still around. Just hoping.....can't understand why the treatment is not
> working....

I really do hope your ich problem clears up. Every time you post about
it I get deja vu. I bought two bala sharks last year and poured the
water that was in the bag directly into the tank. Two days later I got
an ich epidemic. I think I could have cured it but the canister filter
got blocked which exacerbated the problem. All my clown loaches died.

Are you using full strength anti-white spot treatment?

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>Since the false imprisonment of one of my bigger Clowns by the Pl*co
>>(earlier post) I have had a persistent Ich infection of my four smaller
>>Clowns - the other two big ones, including the prisoner, are fine. All of
>>the other fish are still OK for the moment including the SAE's where I
>
> think
>
>>it was the adding of the water (kick me) when I bought them that
>
> introduced
>
>>the Ick.
>>
>>I'm getting to my wits end trying to defeat this. So far the temp is up to
>>81F which is starting to upset the other inhabitants. I have dosed 3 times
>>with Interpet White Spot Plus and added a half dose of salt yesterday.
>>Another dose to follow on Saturday next week. 3 days time some more of the
>>White Spot Treatement.
>>
>>The Clowns in question still have good colour - strong black striping and
>>their very beautiful irredesant orange glow. But I have noticed two of
>
> them
>
>>are starting to try and rest on the heater - IME not good and a sign that
>>they are using it to ease some discomfort....
>>
>>My next plan, as well as the continued treatment, is to up the level of
>>protein in their diet - ie. more red mosquito lavae rather than the flake,
>>daphinia, brine shrimp they already get....but I am at a loss here...
>>
>>Does anyone have any further suggestions.....
>>
>>Thanks
>>Gill
>>
>>
>
> Day 9 into the outbreak. The small clowns are still covered in white spots
> but still have good colour, are eating well and swimming round the tank and
> being as active as ever - a little nervous and not attacking me when I put
> in the bloodworm but eating it as it sinks....tearing into cucumber as well.
> One Platy is suffering a bit but I'm not sure this isn't down to a power
> struggle within the tank as over the last few weeks one male has emerged as
> dominant but maybe I'm kidding myself here and he also has Ich although he
> has no outward signs.

Watch for your platy "flashing." A quick scrape against the substrate
to try to dislodge the parasites. With silvery fish, you see a flash of
scales as they do it, thus the name.
>
> Next chemical treatment due Tues/Wed and more salt on Saturday. Temp is up
> as high as I am comfortable putting it 84F. Have given the filter inlet a
> very good clean tonight and will add to the filtration tomorrow by putting
> in the mature internal pump hanging around surplus in one of the other
> tanks.
>
One or two more degrees and you'll kill the ick from high temps alone.
You're almost there! I'm not sure how much adding to filtration will
help you, but aeration is helpful at high temperatures.

> Am very worried but relieved every time I look morning and evening that they
> are still around. Just hoping.....can't understand why the treatment is not
> working....
>
I don't know what's in the Interpet stuff, but some ich parasites are
resistant to common treatments like formalin/malachite now. If it's
copper, it's hard to get an ich cure with copper alone.

When I had a formalin/malachite resistant strain of ich in a newly setup
tank, it died to 85 degrees and salt. Maybe you could nudge temps one
more degree - 85 is a magic killing temp for many but not all strains of
ich - and add salt instead of chemicals Tuesday or Wednesday.

Good luck! Ich sucks.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >>Since the false imprisonment of one of my bigger Clowns by the Pl*co
> >>(earlier post) I have had a persistent Ich infection of my four smaller
> >>Clowns - the other two big ones, including the prisoner, are fine. All
of
> >>the other fish are still OK for the moment including the SAE's where I
> >
> > think
> >
> >>it was the adding of the water (kick me) when I bought them that
> >
> > introduced
> >
> >>the Ick.
> >>
> >>I'm getting to my wits end trying to defeat this. So far the temp is up
to
> >>81F which is starting to upset the other inhabitants. I have dosed 3
times
> >>with Interpet White Spot Plus and added a half dose of salt yesterday.
> >>Another dose to follow on Saturday next week. 3 days time some more of
the
> >>White Spot Treatement.
> >>
> >>The Clowns in question still have good colour - strong black striping
and
> >>their very beautiful irredesant orange glow. But I have noticed two of
> >
> > them
> >
> >>are starting to try and rest on the heater - IME not good and a sign
that
> >>they are using it to ease some discomfort....
> >>
> >>My next plan, as well as the continued treatment, is to up the level of
> >>protein in their diet - ie. more red mosquito lavae rather than the
flake,
> >>daphinia, brine shrimp they already get....but I am at a loss here...
> >>
> >>Does anyone have any further suggestions.....
> >>
> >>Thanks
> >>Gill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Day 9 into the outbreak. The small clowns are still covered in white
spots
> > but still have good colour, are eating well and swimming round the tank
and
> > being as active as ever - a little nervous and not attacking me when I
put
> > in the bloodworm but eating it as it sinks....tearing into cucumber as
well.
> > One Platy is suffering a bit but I'm not sure this isn't down to a power
> > struggle within the tank as over the last few weeks one male has emerged
as
> > dominant but maybe I'm kidding myself here and he also has Ich although
he
> > has no outward signs.
>
> Watch for your platy "flashing." A quick scrape against the substrate
> to try to dislodge the parasites. With silvery fish, you see a flash of
> scales as they do it, thus the name.
> >
> > Next chemical treatment due Tues/Wed and more salt on Saturday. Temp is
up
> > as high as I am comfortable putting it 84F. Have given the filter inlet
a
> > very good clean tonight and will add to the filtration tomorrow by
putting
> > in the mature internal pump hanging around surplus in one of the other
> > tanks.
> >
> One or two more degrees and you'll kill the ick from high temps alone.
> You're almost there! I'm not sure how much adding to filtration will
> help you, but aeration is helpful at high temperatures.
>
> > Am very worried but relieved every time I look morning and evening that
they
> > are still around. Just hoping.....can't understand why the treatment is
not
> > working....
> >
> I don't know what's in the Interpet stuff, but some ich parasites are
> resistant to common treatments like formalin/malachite now. If it's
> copper, it's hard to get an ich cure with copper alone.
>
> When I had a formalin/malachite resistant strain of ich in a newly setup
> tank, it died to 85 degrees and salt. Maybe you could nudge temps one
> more degree - 85 is a magic killing temp for many but not all strains of
> ich - and add salt instead of chemicals Tuesday or Wednesday.
>
> Good luck! Ich sucks.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is Formaldehyde.
Temperature is currently up at 85F.

The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well. Started
trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But are
resting more than normal.

Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other one, has
vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just got
himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could be a
possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked under
everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.

The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for itself. No
sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-( Although
he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as the
others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in order -
and pregnant I must add....

Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.

How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I bought
looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a tablespoon
per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.

Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly being held
prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to learn....

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> > Day 9 into the outbreak. The small clowns are still covered in white
spots
> > but still have good colour, are eating well and swimming round the tank
and
> > being as active as ever - a little nervous and not attacking me when I
put
> > in the bloodworm but eating it as it sinks....tearing into cucumber as
well.
> > One Platy is suffering a bit but I'm not sure this isn't down to a power
> > struggle within the tank as over the last few weeks one male has emerged
as
> > dominant but maybe I'm kidding myself here and he also has Ich although
he
> > has no outward signs.
> >
> > Next chemical treatment due Tues/Wed and more salt on Saturday. Temp is
up
> > as high as I am comfortable putting it 84F. Have given the filter inlet
a
> > very good clean tonight and will add to the filtration tomorrow by
putting
> > in the mature internal pump hanging around surplus in one of the other
> > tanks.
> >
> > Am very worried but relieved every time I look morning and evening that
they
> > are still around. Just hoping.....can't understand why the treatment is
not
> > working....
>
> I really do hope your ich problem clears up. Every time you post about
> it I get deja vu. I bought two bala sharks last year and poured the
> water that was in the bag directly into the tank. Two days later I got
> an ich epidemic. I think I could have cured it but the canister filter
> got blocked which exacerbated the problem. All my clown loaches died.
>
> Are you using full strength anti-white spot treatment?
>
> Nikki
>
Actually my filter inlet wasn't too clear last night so I de-gunked
it....something I need to watch closer.
I am doing full doses of the anti-white spot treatment but half doses on the
salt as advised by LFS because of the Clown's potential intolerance to salt.

I'm sorry that yours was not a happy outcome :-( I think it's touch and go
with mine. I guess it is a lesson hard learnt....and something I will
certainly never repeat.

Thanks
Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
>
> The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is Formaldehyde.
> Temperature is currently up at 85F.
>
> The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well. Started
> trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But are
> resting more than normal.
>
> Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other one, has
> vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just got
> himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could be a
> possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked under
> everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
>
> The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for itself. No
> sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-( Although
> he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as the
> others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in order -
> and pregnant I must add....
>
> Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
>
> How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I bought
> looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a tablespoon
> per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.
>
> Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly being held
> prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to learn....
>
>
Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3 days
for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat and
salt is working.

Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's less
oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If you've
can add an airstone, that would help a lot.

The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about 1
tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant fish in
that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL freshwater
fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5 gals
on your carton is not at all high.

I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish seem
distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
think it will be a problem for anything.

Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It might be
that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too much
for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> > The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is Formaldehyde.
> > Temperature is currently up at 85F.
> >
> > The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well. Started
> > trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But
are
> > resting more than normal.
> >
> > Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other one,
has
> > vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just got
> > himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could be a
> > possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked
under
> > everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
> >
> > The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for itself.
No
> > sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-(
Although
> > he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as the
> > others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in
order -
> > and pregnant I must add....
> >
> > Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
> >
> > How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I bought
> > looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a
tablespoon
> > per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.
> >
> > Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly being
held
> > prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to
learn....
> >
> >
> Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3 days
> for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat and
> salt is working.
>
> Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's less
> oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
> lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If you've
> can add an airstone, that would help a lot.
>
> The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about 1
> tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant fish in
> that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL freshwater
> fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
> loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5 gals
> on your carton is not at all high.
>
> I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish seem
> distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
> think it will be a problem for anything.
>
> Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It might be
> that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too much
> for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Thanks Elaine, I'll start on the additional salt at the one teaspoon per
gallon level....kicking myself again...I could have put the Platy in a
breeder trap but now I can't find him....even could have moved his tank
which I did consider but ruled out in case he was infected as
well....quarantine tank currently hold a new betta....and I don't want to
risk infecting the other tanks as well....sorry Mr Platy...I'll keep up the
search for him....trap at the ready.

Spots seem to have reached a peak now but no reductions as yet....all the
other fish still appear to be clear unless they have a hidden infection as
per one of the links I got....this is after 3 treatments raised temps plus
salt....I actually find it incredible that the two larger clowns show no
signs of infection but maybe they are stronger down to their
maturity....that being said my first experience of Ich was with them....

I had this before and cleared it following the basic instructions of the
Intepret White Spot Treatment and if I'm allowed to say under the current
circumstances an eductated/fully researched understanding of this....I'm
seriously starting to believe there are strains out there that are getting
imune to this treatment in the same way anti-biotics sensitive infections
gain an immunity to the treatment....

I still think this is too close to call for my little Clowns....

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > >
> > > The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is
Formaldehyde.
> > > Temperature is currently up at 85F.
> > >
> > > The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well.
Started
> > > trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But
> are
> > > resting more than normal.
> > >
> > > Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other
one,
> has
> > > vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just
got
> > > himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could be
a
> > > possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked
> under
> > > everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
> > >
> > > The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for
itself.
> No
> > > sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-(
> Although
> > > he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as
the
> > > others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in
> order -
> > > and pregnant I must add....
> > >
> > > Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
> > >
> > > How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I
bought
> > > looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a
> tablespoon
> > > per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.
> > >
> > > Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly being
> held
> > > prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to
> learn....
> > >
> > >
> > Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3 days
> > for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat and
> > salt is working.
> >
> > Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's less
> > oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
> > lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If you've
> > can add an airstone, that would help a lot.
> >
> > The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about 1
> > tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant fish in
> > that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL freshwater
> > fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
> > loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5 gals
> > on your carton is not at all high.
> >
> > I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish seem
> > distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
> > think it will be a problem for anything.
> >
> > Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It might be
> > that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too much
> > for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.
> >
> > --
> > __ Elaine T __
> > ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> Thanks Elaine, I'll start on the additional salt at the one teaspoon per
> gallon level....kicking myself again...I could have put the Platy in a
> breeder trap but now I can't find him....even could have moved his tank
> which I did consider but ruled out in case he was infected as
> well....quarantine tank currently hold a new betta....and I don't want to
> risk infecting the other tanks as well....sorry Mr Platy...I'll keep up
the
> search for him....trap at the ready.
>
> Spots seem to have reached a peak now but no reductions as yet....all the
> other fish still appear to be clear unless they have a hidden infection as
> per one of the links I got....this is after 3 treatments raised temps plus
> salt....I actually find it incredible that the two larger clowns show no
> signs of infection but maybe they are stronger down to their
> maturity....that being said my first experience of Ich was with them....
>
> I had this before and cleared it following the basic instructions of the
> Intepret White Spot Treatment and if I'm allowed to say under the current
> circumstances an eductated/fully researched understanding of this....I'm
> seriously starting to believe there are strains out there that are getting
> imune to this treatment in the same way anti-biotics sensitive infections
> gain an immunity to the treatment....
>
> I still think this is too close to call for my little Clowns....
>
>
Caught the Platy...safely in the trap...not looking too good but time will
tell

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>>The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is Formaldehyde.
>>>Temperature is currently up at 85F.
>>>
>>>The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well. Started
>>>trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But
>
> are
>
>>>resting more than normal.
>>>
>>>Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other one,
>
> has
>
>>>vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just got
>>>himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could be a
>>>possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked
>
> under
>
>>>everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
>>>
>>>The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for itself.
>
> No
>
>>>sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-(
>
> Although
>
>>>he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as the
>>>others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in
>
> order -
>
>>>and pregnant I must add....
>>>
>>>Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
>>>
>>>How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I bought
>>>looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a
>
> tablespoon
>
>>>per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.
>>>
>>>Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly being
>
> held
>
>>>prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to
>
> learn....
>
>>>
>>Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3 days
>>for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat and
>>salt is working.
>>
>>Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's less
>>oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
>>lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If you've
>>can add an airstone, that would help a lot.
>>
>>The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about 1
>>tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant fish in
>>that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL freshwater
>>fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
>>loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5 gals
>>on your carton is not at all high.
>>
>>I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish seem
>>distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
>>think it will be a problem for anything.
>>
>>Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It might be
>>that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too much
>>for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.
>>
>>--
>> __ Elaine T __
>> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> Thanks Elaine, I'll start on the additional salt at the one teaspoon per
> gallon level....kicking myself again...I could have put the Platy in a
> breeder trap but now I can't find him....even could have moved his tank
> which I did consider but ruled out in case he was infected as
> well....quarantine tank currently hold a new betta....and I don't want to
> risk infecting the other tanks as well....sorry Mr Platy...I'll keep up the
> search for him....trap at the ready.

Good call on not moving him to another tank, I think. Hope he shows up
for you.
>
> Spots seem to have reached a peak now but no reductions as yet....all the
> other fish still appear to be clear unless they have a hidden infection as
> per one of the links I got....this is after 3 treatments raised temps plus
> salt....I actually find it incredible that the two larger clowns show no
> signs of infection but maybe they are stronger down to their
> maturity....that being said my first experience of Ich was with them....

They're immune. Fish that have been infected with ich apparantly
usually develop immunity. Frank in alt.aquaria says that they secrete
an antibody into the slimecoat that keeps the parasites from attaching.

> I had this before and cleared it following the basic instructions of the
> Intepret White Spot Treatment and if I'm allowed to say under the current
> circumstances an eductated/fully researched understanding of this....I'm
> seriously starting to believe there are strains out there that are getting
> imune to this treatment in the same way anti-biotics sensitive infections
> gain an immunity to the treatment....

When I had ichneverendus in a tank -- NetMax's perfect term ;-), NetMax
said that there are strains immune to formalin/malachite now. I had all
the same troubles you did. I also read somewhere that Florida
aquaculture facilities are finding strains that can live in water up to
90F. That's because they use permanganate dips and heat on food fish
rather than formalin/malachite. Hopefully those buggers don't make it
into our tanks any time soon.

> I still think this is too close to call for my little Clowns....

Nah. They'll make it as long as they're not getting any more spots and
its not in their gills.

Good luck!

--
__ Elaine T __
><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>
> >>>The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is Formaldehyde.
> >>>Temperature is currently up at 85F.
> >>>
> >>>The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well.
Started
> >>>trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But
> >
> > are
> >
> >>>resting more than normal.
> >>>
> >>>Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other one,
> >
> > has
> >
> >>>vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just got
> >>>himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could be
a
> >>>possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked
> >
> > under
> >
> >>>everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
> >>>
> >>>The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for itself.
> >
> > No
> >
> >>>sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-(
> >
> > Although
> >
> >>>he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as the
> >>>others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in
> >
> > order -
> >
> >>>and pregnant I must add....
> >>>
> >>>Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
> >>>
> >>>How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I bought
> >>>looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a
> >
> > tablespoon
> >
> >>>per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.
> >>>
> >>>Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly being
> >
> > held
> >
> >>>prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to
> >
> > learn....
> >
> >>>
> >>Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3 days
> >>for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat and
> >>salt is working.
> >>
> >>Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's less
> >>oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
> >>lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If you've
> >>can add an airstone, that would help a lot.
> >>
> >>The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about 1
> >>tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant fish in
> >>that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL freshwater
> >>fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
> >>loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5 gals
> >>on your carton is not at all high.
> >>
> >>I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish seem
> >>distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
> >>think it will be a problem for anything.
> >>
> >>Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It might be
> >>that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too much
> >>for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.
> >>
> >>--
> >> __ Elaine T __
> >> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> > Thanks Elaine, I'll start on the additional salt at the one teaspoon per
> > gallon level....kicking myself again...I could have put the Platy in a
> > breeder trap but now I can't find him....even could have moved his tank
> > which I did consider but ruled out in case he was infected as
> > well....quarantine tank currently hold a new betta....and I don't want
to
> > risk infecting the other tanks as well....sorry Mr Platy...I'll keep up
the
> > search for him....trap at the ready.
>
> Good call on not moving him to another tank, I think. Hope he shows up
> for you.
> >
> > Spots seem to have reached a peak now but no reductions as yet....all
the
> > other fish still appear to be clear unless they have a hidden infection
as
> > per one of the links I got....this is after 3 treatments raised temps
plus
> > salt....I actually find it incredible that the two larger clowns show no
> > signs of infection but maybe they are stronger down to their
> > maturity....that being said my first experience of Ich was with them....
>
> They're immune. Fish that have been infected with ich apparantly
> usually develop immunity. Frank in alt.aquaria says that they secrete
> an antibody into the slimecoat that keeps the parasites from attaching.
>
> > I had this before and cleared it following the basic instructions of the
> > Intepret White Spot Treatment and if I'm allowed to say under the
current
> > circumstances an eductated/fully researched understanding of this....I'm
> > seriously starting to believe there are strains out there that are
getting
> > imune to this treatment in the same way anti-biotics sensitive
infections
> > gain an immunity to the treatment....
>
> When I had ichneverendus in a tank -- NetMax's perfect term ;-), NetMax
> said that there are strains immune to formalin/malachite now. I had all
> the same troubles you did. I also read somewhere that Florida
> aquaculture facilities are finding strains that can live in water up to
> 90F. That's because they use permanganate dips and heat on food fish
> rather than formalin/malachite. Hopefully those buggers don't make it
> into our tanks any time soon.
>
> > I still think this is too close to call for my little Clowns....
>
> Nah. They'll make it as long as they're not getting any more spots and
> its not in their gills.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Here's hoping...IMHO if a fish still eats and plays they are in with a chanc
e!!!! I just really need to get this cleared and know my baby Clowns are
safe....someone once told me keeping fish would be relaxing - I think they
might have at best been taking the p!!! and at worst not known better....

Platy swimming in his trap so lets just wait and see.....

BTW did I mention my panics over the betta or shall I just save this for a
later post????

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>
> >>>The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is Formaldehyde.
> >>>Temperature is currently up at 85F.
> >>>
> >>>The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well.
Started
> >>>trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But
> >
> > are
> >
> >>>resting more than normal.
> >>>
> >>>Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other one,
> >
> > has
> >
> >>>vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just got
> >>>himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could be
a
> >>>possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked
> >
> > under
> >
> >>>everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
> >>>
> >>>The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for itself.
> >
> > No
> >
> >>>sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-(
> >
> > Although
> >
> >>>he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as the
> >>>others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in
> >
> > order -
> >
> >>>and pregnant I must add....
> >>>
> >>>Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
> >>>
> >>>How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I bought
> >>>looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a
> >
> > tablespoon
> >
> >>>per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.
> >>>
> >>>Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly being
> >
> > held
> >
> >>>prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to
> >
> > learn....
> >
> >>>
> >>Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3 days
> >>for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat and
> >>salt is working.
> >>
> >>Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's less
> >>oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
> >>lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If you've
> >>can add an airstone, that would help a lot.
> >>
> >>The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about 1
> >>tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant fish in
> >>that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL freshwater
> >>fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
> >>loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5 gals
> >>on your carton is not at all high.
> >>
> >>I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish seem
> >>distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
> >>think it will be a problem for anything.
> >>
> >>Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It might be
> >>that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too much
> >>for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.
> >>
> >>--
> >> __ Elaine T __
> >> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> > Thanks Elaine, I'll start on the additional salt at the one teaspoon per
> > gallon level....kicking myself again...I could have put the Platy in a
> > breeder trap but now I can't find him....even could have moved his tank
> > which I did consider but ruled out in case he was infected as
> > well....quarantine tank currently hold a new betta....and I don't want
to
> > risk infecting the other tanks as well....sorry Mr Platy...I'll keep up
the
> > search for him....trap at the ready.
>
> Good call on not moving him to another tank, I think. Hope he shows up
> for you.
> >
> > Spots seem to have reached a peak now but no reductions as yet....all
the
> > other fish still appear to be clear unless they have a hidden infection
as
> > per one of the links I got....this is after 3 treatments raised temps
plus
> > salt....I actually find it incredible that the two larger clowns show no
> > signs of infection but maybe they are stronger down to their
> > maturity....that being said my first experience of Ich was with them....
>
> They're immune. Fish that have been infected with ich apparantly
> usually develop immunity. Frank in alt.aquaria says that they secrete
> an antibody into the slimecoat that keeps the parasites from attaching.
>
> > I had this before and cleared it following the basic instructions of the
> > Intepret White Spot Treatment and if I'm allowed to say under the
current
> > circumstances an eductated/fully researched understanding of this....I'm
> > seriously starting to believe there are strains out there that are
getting
> > imune to this treatment in the same way anti-biotics sensitive
infections
> > gain an immunity to the treatment....
>
> When I had ichneverendus in a tank -- NetMax's perfect term ;-), NetMax
> said that there are strains immune to formalin/malachite now. I had all
> the same troubles you did. I also read somewhere that Florida
> aquaculture facilities are finding strains that can live in water up to
> 90F. That's because they use permanganate dips and heat on food fish
> rather than formalin/malachite. Hopefully those buggers don't make it
> into our tanks any time soon.
>
> > I still think this is too close to call for my little Clowns....
>
> Nah. They'll make it as long as they're not getting any more spots and
> its not in their gills.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> __ Elaine T __
> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Bad news - I lost the Platy ;-( He seemed reasonably happy in the trap this
morning but when I got home tonight he had gone.....

Clowns seem to be getting more spotty....and their gill movement is speeding
up....

I'll do the salt in a minute and then I can monitor them before bedtime.
Can't see any point in doing the chemicals again but might do them anyway
just in case.....

This is looking bad ;-(

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >>Gill Passman wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is
Formaldehyde.
> > >>>Temperature is currently up at 85F.
> > >>>
> > >>>The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well.
> Started
> > >>>trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight. But
> > >
> > > are
> > >
> > >>>resting more than normal.
> > >>>
> > >>>Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other
one,
> > >
> > > has
> > >
> > >>>vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just
got
> > >>>himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could
be
> a
> > >>>possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him - checked
> > >
> > > under
> > >
> > >>>everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
> > >>>
> > >>>The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for
itself.
> > >
> > > No
> > >
> > >>>sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-(
> > >
> > > Although
> > >
> > >>>he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as
the
> > >>>others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in
> > >
> > > order -
> > >
> > >>>and pregnant I must add....
> > >>>
> > >>>Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
> > >>>
> > >>>How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I
bought
> > >>>looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a
> > >
> > > tablespoon
> > >
> > >>>per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK galls.
> > >>>
> > >>>Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly
being
> > >
> > > held
> > >
> > >>>prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to
> > >
> > > learn....
> > >
> > >>>
> > >>Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3 days
> > >>for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat
and
> > >>salt is working.
> > >>
> > >>Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's less
> > >>oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
> > >>lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If you've
> > >>can add an airstone, that would help a lot.
> > >>
> > >>The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about 1
> > >>tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant fish
in
> > >>that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL
freshwater
> > >>fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
> > >>loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5
gals
> > >>on your carton is not at all high.
> > >>
> > >>I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish
seem
> > >>distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
> > >>think it will be a problem for anything.
> > >>
> > >>Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It might
be
> > >>that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too
much
> > >>for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >> __ Elaine T __
> > >> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > >> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks Elaine, I'll start on the additional salt at the one teaspoon
per
> > > gallon level....kicking myself again...I could have put the Platy in a
> > > breeder trap but now I can't find him....even could have moved his
tank
> > > which I did consider but ruled out in case he was infected as
> > > well....quarantine tank currently hold a new betta....and I don't want
> to
> > > risk infecting the other tanks as well....sorry Mr Platy...I'll keep
up
> the
> > > search for him....trap at the ready.
> >
> > Good call on not moving him to another tank, I think. Hope he shows up
> > for you.
> > >
> > > Spots seem to have reached a peak now but no reductions as yet....all
> the
> > > other fish still appear to be clear unless they have a hidden
infection
> as
> > > per one of the links I got....this is after 3 treatments raised temps
> plus
> > > salt....I actually find it incredible that the two larger clowns show
no
> > > signs of infection but maybe they are stronger down to their
> > > maturity....that being said my first experience of Ich was with
them....
> >
> > They're immune. Fish that have been infected with ich apparantly
> > usually develop immunity. Frank in alt.aquaria says that they secrete
> > an antibody into the slimecoat that keeps the parasites from attaching.
> >
> > > I had this before and cleared it following the basic instructions of
the
> > > Intepret White Spot Treatment and if I'm allowed to say under the
> current
> > > circumstances an eductated/fully researched understanding of
this....I'm
> > > seriously starting to believe there are strains out there that are
> getting
> > > imune to this treatment in the same way anti-biotics sensitive
> infections
> > > gain an immunity to the treatment....
> >
> > When I had ichneverendus in a tank -- NetMax's perfect term ;-), NetMax
> > said that there are strains immune to formalin/malachite now. I had all
> > the same troubles you did. I also read somewhere that Florida
> > aquaculture facilities are finding strains that can live in water up to
> > 90F. That's because they use permanganate dips and heat on food fish
> > rather than formalin/malachite. Hopefully those buggers don't make it
> > into our tanks any time soon.
> >
> > > I still think this is too close to call for my little Clowns....
> >
> > Nah. They'll make it as long as they're not getting any more spots and
> > its not in their gills.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > --
> > __ Elaine T __
> > ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> Bad news - I lost the Platy ;-( He seemed reasonably happy in the trap
this
> morning but when I got home tonight he had gone.....
>
> Clowns seem to be getting more spotty....and their gill movement is
speeding
> up....
>
> I'll do the salt in a minute and then I can monitor them before bedtime.
> Can't see any point in doing the chemicals again but might do them anyway
> just in case.....
>
> This is looking bad ;-(
>
>
What about doing a 30% water change and then adding the salt?

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> > > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > >>Gill Passman wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>The active ingredient in Interpet Anti White Spot Plus is
> Formaldehyde.
> > > >>>Temperature is currently up at 85F.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>The four small Clowns are still very spotty but are eating well.
> > Started
> > > >>>trying to steal the frozen blood worm from my hand again tonight.
But
> > > >
> > > > are
> > > >
> > > >>>resting more than normal.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Itchy one of the larger Clowns is still clear. Scratchy, the other
> one,
> > > >
> > > > has
> > > >
> > > >>>vanished - he was clear this morning so I'm hoping that he has just
> got
> > > >>>himself trapped by the Pl*c (who seems a bit agitated so this could
> be
> > a
> > > >>>possibility - fingers crossed) I could find no sign of him -
checked
> > > >
> > > > under
> > > >
> > > >>>everything else so there is a chance that this is the case.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>The Platy is still sitting at the bottom looking very sorry for
> itself.
> > > >
> > > > No
> > > >
> > > >>>sign of any spots or flashing. Have a feeling he won't make it :-(
> > > >
> > > > Although
> > > >
> > > >>>he did move a bit for food. When I got them he was the same size as
> the
> > > >>>others but never grew as much. The dominant Platy keeps the rest in
> > > >
> > > > order -
> > > >
> > > >>>and pregnant I must add....
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Headcount on all the others looks OK and still clear of spots.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>How much salt would you actually add? The dosage on the carton I
> bought
> > > >>>looked very high even doing it at half strength - it suggests a
> > > >
> > > > tablespoon
> > > >
> > > >>>per 5 galls. I did 4.5 spoonfulls - the tank is around 47.5UK
galls.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Good news is I've just spotted Scratchy, and I was right, firmly
> being
> > > >
> > > > held
> > > >
> > > >>>prisoner by the Pl*c - last time it was Itchy. They don't seem to
> > > >
> > > > learn....
> > > >
> > > >>>
> > > >>Hopefully they're not getting MORE spotty now. It will take 2-3
days
> > > >>for the spots to mature and fall off and then you will know the heat
> and
> > > >>salt is working.
> > > >>
> > > >>Your clowns are possibly resting more than normal because there's
less
> > > >>oxygen than they're used to from the high temps. Oxygen is usually
> > > >>lowest at the bottom of the tank where the clowns hang out. If
you've
> > > >>can add an airstone, that would help a lot.
> > > >>
> > > >>The classic salt bath for ich and protozoans is actually 0.3%, about
1
> > > >>tbsp/gallon. However, I've never put anything but salt-tolerant
fish
> in
> > > >>that much. The fish store where I worked routinely kept ALL
> freshwater
> > > >>fish at 0.1% salt (about 1 tsp/gallon) including cories, tetras,
> > > >>loaches, and other so-called salt sensitive species. The 1 tbsp/5
> gals
> > > >>on your carton is not at all high.
> > > >>
> > > >>I would add salt up to 1 tsp/gallon over 2 or 3 days. If the fish
> seem
> > > >>distressed, change some water to bring the salt back down. I don't
> > > >>think it will be a problem for anything.
> > > >>
> > > >>Can you put the stressed platy in a breeding net for a bit? It
might
> be
> > > >>that the combination of high temps and being picked on is just too
> much
> > > >>for him and a quiet place while temps are up may do the trick.
> > > >>
> > > >>--
> > > >> __ Elaine T __
> > > >> ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > > >> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Elaine, I'll start on the additional salt at the one teaspoon
> per
> > > > gallon level....kicking myself again...I could have put the Platy in
a
> > > > breeder trap but now I can't find him....even could have moved his
> tank
> > > > which I did consider but ruled out in case he was infected as
> > > > well....quarantine tank currently hold a new betta....and I don't
want
> > to
> > > > risk infecting the other tanks as well....sorry Mr Platy...I'll keep
> up
> > the
> > > > search for him....trap at the ready.
> > >
> > > Good call on not moving him to another tank, I think. Hope he shows
up
> > > for you.
> > > >
> > > > Spots seem to have reached a peak now but no reductions as
yet....all
> > the
> > > > other fish still appear to be clear unless they have a hidden
> infection
> > as
> > > > per one of the links I got....this is after 3 treatments raised
temps
> > plus
> > > > salt....I actually find it incredible that the two larger clowns
show
> no
> > > > signs of infection but maybe they are stronger down to their
> > > > maturity....that being said my first experience of Ich was with
> them....
> > >
> > > They're immune. Fish that have been infected with ich apparantly
> > > usually develop immunity. Frank in alt.aquaria says that they secrete
> > > an antibody into the slimecoat that keeps the parasites from
attaching.
> > >
> > > > I had this before and cleared it following the basic instructions of
> the
> > > > Intepret White Spot Treatment and if I'm allowed to say under the
> > current
> > > > circumstances an eductated/fully researched understanding of
> this....I'm
> > > > seriously starting to believe there are strains out there that are
> > getting
> > > > imune to this treatment in the same way anti-biotics sensitive
> > infections
> > > > gain an immunity to the treatment....
> > >
> > > When I had ichneverendus in a tank -- NetMax's perfect term ;-),
NetMax
> > > said that there are strains immune to formalin/malachite now. I had
all
> > > the same troubles you did. I also read somewhere that Florida
> > > aquaculture facilities are finding strains that can live in water up
to
> > > 90F. That's because they use permanganate dips and heat on food fish
> > > rather than formalin/malachite. Hopefully those buggers don't make it
> > > into our tanks any time soon.
> > >
> > > > I still think this is too close to call for my little Clowns....
> > >
> > > Nah. They'll make it as long as they're not getting any more spots
and
> > > its not in their gills.
> > >
> > > Good luck!
> > >
> > > --
> > > __ Elaine T __
> > > ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> > Bad news - I lost the Platy ;-( He seemed reasonably happy in the trap
> this
> > morning but when I got home tonight he had gone.....
> >
> > Clowns seem to be getting more spotty....and their gill movement is
> speeding
> > up....
> >
> > I'll do the salt in a minute and then I can monitor them before bedtime.
> > Can't see any point in doing the chemicals again but might do them
anyway
> > just in case.....
> >
> > This is looking bad ;-(
> >
> >
> What about doing a 30% water change and then adding the salt?
>
>
Ok what I did in the end was around a 40% water change with mega gravel
clean - had to keep unblocking the feed - everyone seems grateful for
that...cleaned the filter inlet again. I then added the Interpet White Spot
treatment again - even if it isn't going to work there is no harm in trying.
Then added 5 tablespoons of salt....

Still spotty but dancing again....they have given a wonderful display and
are still at it an hour later...the SAE's are trying to join in but the
Clowns won't have it.....it is their game.....

Plan now is maybe to add a little more salt tomorrow and over the next few
days then attack again with the water change and chemicls in 4 days
time....I really, really hope that this course of action will help...I have
no other plans.....

Gill

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:
>
> Ok what I did in the end was around a 40% water change with mega gravel
> clean - had to keep unblocking the feed - everyone seems grateful for
> that...cleaned the filter inlet again. I then added the Interpet White Spot
> treatment again - even if it isn't going to work there is no harm in trying.
> Then added 5 tablespoons of salt....
>
> Still spotty but dancing again....they have given a wonderful display and
> are still at it an hour later...the SAE's are trying to join in but the
> Clowns won't have it.....it is their game.....
>
> Plan now is maybe to add a little more salt tomorrow and over the next few
> days then attack again with the water change and chemicls in 4 days
> time....I really, really hope that this course of action will help...I have
> no other plans.....

Sounds like a good plan. I'm thinking, with the salt, the heat and the
medication what the oxygen level could be in your tank. I presume you've
got some good aeration going there?

I'm wondering, with circumstances like these, how helpful it would be to
inject pure oxygen directly into the tank as one does with CO2. That
would certainly give the fish that extra staying power needed to
overcome drawn-out ich infections. It's ironic that to cure fish of any
illnesses we add treatments that deprive them of oxygen. We should be
adding oxygen. But, yes, it's an unfortunate side-effect.

In my tanks without CO2 injection, O2 is around 6.0 mg/L. In my planted
tanks with CO2 injection, O2 can reach 9.7 mg/L. That's super
saturation. If I were to medicate, raise heat and salt the water, I
presume the plants would take a big hit and be unable to oxygenate the
tank as before. Also, at night, the plants would be consuming the ever
needed and dwindling O2. So plants may not be a solution.

I reckon injecting O2 could be extremely effective at aiding treatment.
Now where can I get a cylinder of compressed O2 around this neck of the
woods without tracking down asthmatic friends?

Now where was I? Ah yes. Ich, begone forthwith!

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:

> Ok what I did in the end was around a 40% water change with mega gravel
> clean - had to keep unblocking the feed - everyone seems grateful for
> that...cleaned the filter inlet again. I then added the Interpet White Spot
> treatment again - even if it isn't going to work there is no harm in trying.
> Then added 5 tablespoons of salt....
>
> Still spotty but dancing again....they have given a wonderful display and
> are still at it an hour later...the SAE's are trying to join in but the
> Clowns won't have it.....it is their game.....
>
> Plan now is maybe to add a little more salt tomorrow and over the next few
> days then attack again with the water change and chemicls in 4 days
> time....I really, really hope that this course of action will help...I have
> no other plans.....
>
> Gill
>
Sorry to hear about the platy.

Water change and gravel vac are always a good plan. It's a bit
worrisome that there's so much gunk that you have to keep unblocking the
filter feed. I suspect you may have found the tank problem that led to
the outbreak in the first place. You might want to keep doing gravel
vacs every couple of days until the gravel bed is much cleaner. Your
filter shouldn't clog multiple times during a water change.

There can be harm in using the Interpet White Spot - it's toxic and adds
to the stress on the fish. You have to balance the chemicals with the
high temps. Watch your fish carefully if you choose to use it and be
ready to change water if they stop "dancing" again.

I really hope this works for you!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> > Ok what I did in the end was around a 40% water change with mega gravel
> > clean - had to keep unblocking the feed - everyone seems grateful for
> > that...cleaned the filter inlet again. I then added the Interpet White
Spot
> > treatment again - even if it isn't going to work there is no harm in
trying.
> > Then added 5 tablespoons of salt....
> >
> > Still spotty but dancing again....they have given a wonderful display
and
> > are still at it an hour later...the SAE's are trying to join in but the
> > Clowns won't have it.....it is their game.....
> >
> > Plan now is maybe to add a little more salt tomorrow and over the next
few
> > days then attack again with the water change and chemicls in 4 days
> > time....I really, really hope that this course of action will help...I
have
> > no other plans.....
>
> Sounds like a good plan. I'm thinking, with the salt, the heat and the
> medication what the oxygen level could be in your tank. I presume you've
> got some good aeration going there?
>
> I'm wondering, with circumstances like these, how helpful it would be to
> inject pure oxygen directly into the tank as one does with CO2. That
> would certainly give the fish that extra staying power needed to
> overcome drawn-out ich infections. It's ironic that to cure fish of any
> illnesses we add treatments that deprive them of oxygen. We should be
> adding oxygen. But, yes, it's an unfortunate side-effect.
>
> In my tanks without CO2 injection, O2 is around 6.0 mg/L. In my planted
> tanks with CO2 injection, O2 can reach 9.7 mg/L. That's super
> saturation. If I were to medicate, raise heat and salt the water, I
> presume the plants would take a big hit and be unable to oxygenate the
> tank as before. Also, at night, the plants would be consuming the ever
> needed and dwindling O2. So plants may not be a solution.
>
> I reckon injecting O2 could be extremely effective at aiding treatment.
> Now where can I get a cylinder of compressed O2 around this neck of the
> woods without tracking down asthmatic friends?
>
> Now where was I? Ah yes. Ich, begone forthwith!
>
> Nikki
>
Oxygen certainly seems to be becoming on issue looking at the gill rate -
especially on the Pl*co. I've never actually measured it as it is a heavily
(or was until the salt) planted tank, plus at the moment it doesn't have an
air-brick - keep meaning to get one. Have called a friend who I think might
have some spares - she keeps buying new ones trying to find a quiet
one....The other option is taking the one out of the Malawi tank and
replacing that one at the weekend. I don't use a CO2 unit in that tank -
keep almost doing it but something keeps stopping me. Potentially I could
also add some more plants - the Betta is currently shredding the ones in his
tank....

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > Ok what I did in the end was around a 40% water change with mega gravel
> > clean - had to keep unblocking the feed - everyone seems grateful for
> > that...cleaned the filter inlet again. I then added the Interpet White
Spot
> > treatment again - even if it isn't going to work there is no harm in
trying.
> > Then added 5 tablespoons of salt....
> >
> > Still spotty but dancing again....they have given a wonderful display
and
> > are still at it an hour later...the SAE's are trying to join in but the
> > Clowns won't have it.....it is their game.....
> >
> > Plan now is maybe to add a little more salt tomorrow and over the next
few
> > days then attack again with the water change and chemicls in 4 days
> > time....I really, really hope that this course of action will help...I
have
> > no other plans.....
> >
> > Gill
> >
> Sorry to hear about the platy.
>
> Water change and gravel vac are always a good plan. It's a bit
> worrisome that there's so much gunk that you have to keep unblocking the
> filter feed. I suspect you may have found the tank problem that led to
> the outbreak in the first place. You might want to keep doing gravel
> vacs every couple of days until the gravel bed is much cleaner. Your
> filter shouldn't clog multiple times during a water change.
>
> There can be harm in using the Interpet White Spot - it's toxic and adds
> to the stress on the fish. You have to balance the chemicals with the
> high temps. Watch your fish carefully if you choose to use it and be
> ready to change water if they stop "dancing" again.
>
> I really hope this works for you!
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Lost a Neon Tetra today ;-( - so it's now two Platys and one Neon...

Gill movement is rapid on most of the fish and the Pl*co seems to be
suffering the most - so I reckon as he is the bottom dweller I need to do
something about the oxygenation pretty rapidly. The Gouramis are coping
quite well - but of course they have a labyrinth organ so don't entirely
depend on the oxygen levels in the tank. Tetras and Guppies are just up at
the top. The Tetras are schooling quite tightly - normally I have a problem
counting them as they are all over the place.

Clowns are still spotty - although I think one of them is showing a
reduction in the number of spots. Not dancing too much today. Nor did they
attack me for the bloodworm.

So tonights plan of action is to get the oxygen levels up in the tank
firstly and then make the decision as to whether to change the water again.
This is a horrible choice coz if I reduce the level of treatment in the tank
by the water change the others will have a chance but I might not get rid of
the Ich. However, if I don't I might lose more fish....I'm going to try and
achieve the raised Oxygen level by putting in the other filter plus an
air-brick. If necessary I will steal some plants from the 5gall (Betta is
shredding them anyway) but probably do this in the morning rather than
tonight.

I remember Daniel saying in a previous post when this problem first started
with the imprisoned Clown that he has successfully treated Ich just with
raised temps and water changes. Maybe, for the good of the other fish, I
ought to try just doing that - nothing else is working :-(

The gunk in the syphon filter is easily explained - I have a slight/large
algae problem in the tank. I was a bit ferocious with the gravel clean last
night so kept sucking up the loosened algae. Of course some of that then
found its way into the inlet of the filter as well which is why I cleaned it
to be on the safe side.

Thanks for your continued support and advice
Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:

> Lost a Neon Tetra today ;-( - so it's now two Platys and one Neon...
>
> Gill movement is rapid on most of the fish and the Pl*co seems to be
> suffering the most - so I reckon as he is the bottom dweller I need to do
> something about the oxygenation pretty rapidly. The Gouramis are coping
> quite well - but of course they have a labyrinth organ so don't entirely
> depend on the oxygen levels in the tank. Tetras and Guppies are just up at
> the top. The Tetras are schooling quite tightly - normally I have a problem
> counting them as they are all over the place.
>
> Clowns are still spotty - although I think one of them is showing a
> reduction in the number of spots. Not dancing too much today. Nor did they
> attack me for the bloodworm.
>
> So tonights plan of action is to get the oxygen levels up in the tank
> firstly and then make the decision as to whether to change the water again.
> This is a horrible choice coz if I reduce the level of treatment in the tank
> by the water change the others will have a chance but I might not get rid of
> the Ich. However, if I don't I might lose more fish....I'm going to try and
> achieve the raised Oxygen level by putting in the other filter plus an
> air-brick. If necessary I will steal some plants from the 5gall (Betta is
> shredding them anyway) but probably do this in the morning rather than
> tonight.
>
> I remember Daniel saying in a previous post when this problem first started
> with the imprisoned Clown that he has successfully treated Ich just with
> raised temps and water changes. Maybe, for the good of the other fish, I
> ought to try just doing that - nothing else is working :-(
>
> The gunk in the syphon filter is easily explained - I have a slight/large
> algae problem in the tank. I was a bit ferocious with the gravel clean last
> night so kept sucking up the loosened algae. Of course some of that then
> found its way into the inlet of the filter as well which is why I cleaned it
> to be on the safe side.
>
> Thanks for your continued support and advice
> Gill
>
>
Yes, take the airstone from your Malawi tank! It will help things a
lot. Remember, plants help during the day, but not at night. Some
plants even use O2 when it's dark. I'd hold off until the tank's back
to normal to move plants from another tank myself.

Don't sweat the medicine level and water changes. Keep changing water!
Remember, the heat is the main treatment now. Formalin reacts pretty
quickly with DOCs in the water and so is already vanishing anyway, and
you add the current amount of salt to the replacement water. BTW,
wherever you are in tsp salt/5 gallons, I'd stop there for a day or two
and maybe even add less to the water change water. I'm concerned about
that neon you lost and the heat and salt.

For plants, the heat is actually more of a problem than below 0.1% salt.
Remember that if your crypts melt or grasses die back, they'll regrow
from the roots fairly quickly.

I'm sorry about the neon, but glad your clowns might be looking better.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
> > Lost a Neon Tetra today ;-( - so it's now two Platys and one Neon...
> >
> > Gill movement is rapid on most of the fish and the Pl*co seems to be
> > suffering the most - so I reckon as he is the bottom dweller I need to
do
> > something about the oxygenation pretty rapidly. The Gouramis are coping
> > quite well - but of course they have a labyrinth organ so don't entirely
> > depend on the oxygen levels in the tank. Tetras and Guppies are just up
at
> > the top. The Tetras are schooling quite tightly - normally I have a
problem
> > counting them as they are all over the place.
> >
> > Clowns are still spotty - although I think one of them is showing a
> > reduction in the number of spots. Not dancing too much today. Nor did
they
> > attack me for the bloodworm.
> >
> > So tonights plan of action is to get the oxygen levels up in the tank
> > firstly and then make the decision as to whether to change the water
again.
> > This is a horrible choice coz if I reduce the level of treatment in the
tank
> > by the water change the others will have a chance but I might not get
rid of
> > the Ich. However, if I don't I might lose more fish....I'm going to try
and
> > achieve the raised Oxygen level by putting in the other filter plus an
> > air-brick. If necessary I will steal some plants from the 5gall (Betta
is
> > shredding them anyway) but probably do this in the morning rather than
> > tonight.
> >
> > I remember Daniel saying in a previous post when this problem first
started
> > with the imprisoned Clown that he has successfully treated Ich just with
> > raised temps and water changes. Maybe, for the good of the other fish, I
> > ought to try just doing that - nothing else is working :-(
> >
> > The gunk in the syphon filter is easily explained - I have a
slight/large
> > algae problem in the tank. I was a bit ferocious with the gravel clean
last
> > night so kept sucking up the loosened algae. Of course some of that then
> > found its way into the inlet of the filter as well which is why I
cleaned it
> > to be on the safe side.
> >
> > Thanks for your continued support and advice
> > Gill
> >
> >
> Yes, take the airstone from your Malawi tank! It will help things a
> lot. Remember, plants help during the day, but not at night. Some
> plants even use O2 when it's dark. I'd hold off until the tank's back
> to normal to move plants from another tank myself.
>
> Don't sweat the medicine level and water changes. Keep changing water!
> Remember, the heat is the main treatment now. Formalin reacts pretty
> quickly with DOCs in the water and so is already vanishing anyway, and
> you add the current amount of salt to the replacement water. BTW,
> wherever you are in tsp salt/5 gallons, I'd stop there for a day or two
> and maybe even add less to the water change water. I'm concerned about
> that neon you lost and the heat and salt.
>
> For plants, the heat is actually more of a problem than below 0.1% salt.
> Remember that if your crypts melt or grasses die back, they'll regrow
> from the roots fairly quickly.
>
> I'm sorry about the neon, but glad your clowns might be looking better.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Managed to borrow an air brick and everyone is looking much happier and back
to normal....the little Clowns are now playing in the bubbles....still
spotty but I really think these are starting to reduce. Two of them seem to
have lost some - the other two I'm not too sure.

The tetras are now behaving as they do normally and the Pl*co has returned
to his cave - wish he was out more in reality - he is really beautiful and
was lovely to watch - I think he came out because he was more hungry than
usual - he rested on a broad leaf and chewed at the algae. The male Gourami
is now chasing his girls round the tank as usual.

Haven't done a water change as the air brick seems to have worked. But I am
going to monitor this.

Found out the reason for the oxygen crisis. Last night when hubbie put the
inlet valve back in he forgot to turn on the pump (doh). It went back on at
around midday making 14 hours with no water circulation - I think I'm very
lucky that I only lost one fish - someone must like my fish. Certainly a
very unwanted test of NetMax's theory on how to check on overstocked tank.

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Lost a Neon Tetra today ;-( - so it's now two Platys and one Neon...
>>>
>>>Gill movement is rapid on most of the fish and the Pl*co seems to be
>>>suffering the most - so I reckon as he is the bottom dweller I need to
>
> do
>
>>>something about the oxygenation pretty rapidly. The Gouramis are coping
>>>quite well - but of course they have a labyrinth organ so don't entirely
>>>depend on the oxygen levels in the tank. Tetras and Guppies are just up
>
> at
>
>>>the top. The Tetras are schooling quite tightly - normally I have a
>
> problem
>
>>>counting them as they are all over the place.
>>>
>>>Clowns are still spotty - although I think one of them is showing a
>>>reduction in the number of spots. Not dancing too much today. Nor did
>
> they
>
>>>attack me for the bloodworm.
>>>
>>>So tonights plan of action is to get the oxygen levels up in the tank
>>>firstly and then make the decision as to whether to change the water
>
> again.
>
>>>This is a horrible choice coz if I reduce the level of treatment in the
>
> tank
>
>>>by the water change the others will have a chance but I might not get
>
> rid of
>
>>>the Ich. However, if I don't I might lose more fish....I'm going to try
>
> and
>
>>>achieve the raised Oxygen level by putting in the other filter plus an
>>>air-brick. If necessary I will steal some plants from the 5gall (Betta
>
> is
>
>>>shredding them anyway) but probably do this in the morning rather than
>>>tonight.
>>>
>>>I remember Daniel saying in a previous post when this problem first
>
> started
>
>>>with the imprisoned Clown that he has successfully treated Ich just with
>>>raised temps and water changes. Maybe, for the good of the other fish, I
>>>ought to try just doing that - nothing else is working :-(
>>>
>>>The gunk in the syphon filter is easily explained - I have a
>
> slight/large
>
>>>algae problem in the tank. I was a bit ferocious with the gravel clean
>
> last
>
>>>night so kept sucking up the loosened algae. Of course some of that then
>>>found its way into the inlet of the filter as well which is why I
>
> cleaned it
>
>>>to be on the safe side.
>>>
>>>Thanks for your continued support and advice
>>>Gill
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yes, take the airstone from your Malawi tank! It will help things a
>>lot. Remember, plants help during the day, but not at night. Some
>>plants even use O2 when it's dark. I'd hold off until the tank's back
>>to normal to move plants from another tank myself.
>>
>>Don't sweat the medicine level and water changes. Keep changing water!
>> Remember, the heat is the main treatment now. Formalin reacts pretty
>>quickly with DOCs in the water and so is already vanishing anyway, and
>>you add the current amount of salt to the replacement water. BTW,
>>wherever you are in tsp salt/5 gallons, I'd stop there for a day or two
>>and maybe even add less to the water change water. I'm concerned about
>>that neon you lost and the heat and salt.
>>
>>For plants, the heat is actually more of a problem than below 0.1% salt.
>> Remember that if your crypts melt or grasses die back, they'll regrow
>>from the roots fairly quickly.
>>
>>I'm sorry about the neon, but glad your clowns might be looking better.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> Managed to borrow an air brick and everyone is looking much happier and back
> to normal....the little Clowns are now playing in the bubbles....still
> spotty but I really think these are starting to reduce. Two of them seem to
> have lost some - the other two I'm not too sure.
>
> The tetras are now behaving as they do normally and the Pl*co has returned
> to his cave - wish he was out more in reality - he is really beautiful and
> was lovely to watch - I think he came out because he was more hungry than
> usual - he rested on a broad leaf and chewed at the algae. The male Gourami
> is now chasing his girls round the tank as usual.
>
> Haven't done a water change as the air brick seems to have worked. But I am
> going to monitor this.
>
> Found out the reason for the oxygen crisis. Last night when hubbie put the
> inlet valve back in he forgot to turn on the pump (doh). It went back on at
> around midday making 14 hours with no water circulation - I think I'm very
> lucky that I only lost one fish - someone must like my fish. Certainly a
> very unwanted test of NetMax's theory on how to check on overstocked tank.
>
> Gill
>

Eep! Glad things are looking so much better.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Lost a Neon Tetra today ;-( - so it's now two Platys and one Neon...
> >>>
> >>>Gill movement is rapid on most of the fish and the Pl*co seems to be
> >>>suffering the most - so I reckon as he is the bottom dweller I need to
> >
> > do
> >
> >>>something about the oxygenation pretty rapidly. The Gouramis are coping
> >>>quite well - but of course they have a labyrinth organ so don't
entirely
> >>>depend on the oxygen levels in the tank. Tetras and Guppies are just up
> >
> > at
> >
> >>>the top. The Tetras are schooling quite tightly - normally I have a
> >
> > problem
> >
> >>>counting them as they are all over the place.
> >>>
> >>>Clowns are still spotty - although I think one of them is showing a
> >>>reduction in the number of spots. Not dancing too much today. Nor did
> >
> > they
> >
> >>>attack me for the bloodworm.
> >>>
> >>>So tonights plan of action is to get the oxygen levels up in the tank
> >>>firstly and then make the decision as to whether to change the water
> >
> > again.
> >
> >>>This is a horrible choice coz if I reduce the level of treatment in the
> >
> > tank
> >
> >>>by the water change the others will have a chance but I might not get
> >
> > rid of
> >
> >>>the Ich. However, if I don't I might lose more fish....I'm going to try
> >
> > and
> >
> >>>achieve the raised Oxygen level by putting in the other filter plus an
> >>>air-brick. If necessary I will steal some plants from the 5gall (Betta
> >
> > is
> >
> >>>shredding them anyway) but probably do this in the morning rather than
> >>>tonight.
> >>>
> >>>I remember Daniel saying in a previous post when this problem first
> >
> > started
> >
> >>>with the imprisoned Clown that he has successfully treated Ich just
with
> >>>raised temps and water changes. Maybe, for the good of the other fish,
I
> >>>ought to try just doing that - nothing else is working :-(
> >>>
> >>>The gunk in the syphon filter is easily explained - I have a
> >
> > slight/large
> >
> >>>algae problem in the tank. I was a bit ferocious with the gravel clean
> >
> > last
> >
> >>>night so kept sucking up the loosened algae. Of course some of that
then
> >>>found its way into the inlet of the filter as well which is why I
> >
> > cleaned it
> >
> >>>to be on the safe side.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks for your continued support and advice
> >>>Gill
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Yes, take the airstone from your Malawi tank! It will help things a
> >>lot. Remember, plants help during the day, but not at night. Some
> >>plants even use O2 when it's dark. I'd hold off until the tank's back
> >>to normal to move plants from another tank myself.
> >>
> >>Don't sweat the medicine level and water changes. Keep changing water!
> >> Remember, the heat is the main treatment now. Formalin reacts pretty
> >>quickly with DOCs in the water and so is already vanishing anyway, and
> >>you add the current amount of salt to the replacement water. BTW,
> >>wherever you are in tsp salt/5 gallons, I'd stop there for a day or two
> >>and maybe even add less to the water change water. I'm concerned about
> >>that neon you lost and the heat and salt.
> >>
> >>For plants, the heat is actually more of a problem than below 0.1% salt.
> >> Remember that if your crypts melt or grasses die back, they'll regrow
> >>from the roots fairly quickly.
> >>
> >>I'm sorry about the neon, but glad your clowns might be looking better.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Elaine T __
> >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> > Managed to borrow an air brick and everyone is looking much happier and
back
> > to normal....the little Clowns are now playing in the bubbles....still
> > spotty but I really think these are starting to reduce. Two of them seem
to
> > have lost some - the other two I'm not too sure.
> >
> > The tetras are now behaving as they do normally and the Pl*co has
returned
> > to his cave - wish he was out more in reality - he is really beautiful
and
> > was lovely to watch - I think he came out because he was more hungry
than
> > usual - he rested on a broad leaf and chewed at the algae. The male
Gourami
> > is now chasing his girls round the tank as usual.
> >
> > Haven't done a water change as the air brick seems to have worked. But I
am
> > going to monitor this.
> >
> > Found out the reason for the oxygen crisis. Last night when hubbie put
the
> > inlet valve back in he forgot to turn on the pump (doh). It went back on
at
> > around midday making 14 hours with no water circulation - I think I'm
very
> > lucky that I only lost one fish - someone must like my fish. Certainly a
> > very unwanted test of NetMax's theory on how to check on overstocked
tank.
> >
> > Gill
> >
>
> Eep! Glad things are looking so much better.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of them :-)
The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening. Feeding
well and dancing still.

Everyone else is present and correct - phew

Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....

Thanks again very everything
Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >>Gill Passman wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Lost a Neon Tetra today ;-( - so it's now two Platys and one Neon...
> > >>>
> > >>>Gill movement is rapid on most of the fish and the Pl*co seems to be
> > >>>suffering the most - so I reckon as he is the bottom dweller I need
to
> > >
> > > do
> > >
> > >>>something about the oxygenation pretty rapidly. The Gouramis are
coping
> > >>>quite well - but of course they have a labyrinth organ so don't
> entirely
> > >>>depend on the oxygen levels in the tank. Tetras and Guppies are just
up
> > >
> > > at
> > >
> > >>>the top. The Tetras are schooling quite tightly - normally I have a
> > >
> > > problem
> > >
> > >>>counting them as they are all over the place.
> > >>>
> > >>>Clowns are still spotty - although I think one of them is showing a
> > >>>reduction in the number of spots. Not dancing too much today. Nor did
> > >
> > > they
> > >
> > >>>attack me for the bloodworm.
> > >>>
> > >>>So tonights plan of action is to get the oxygen levels up in the tank
> > >>>firstly and then make the decision as to whether to change the water
> > >
> > > again.
> > >
> > >>>This is a horrible choice coz if I reduce the level of treatment in
the
> > >
> > > tank
> > >
> > >>>by the water change the others will have a chance but I might not get
> > >
> > > rid of
> > >
> > >>>the Ich. However, if I don't I might lose more fish....I'm going to
try
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > >>>achieve the raised Oxygen level by putting in the other filter plus
an
> > >>>air-brick. If necessary I will steal some plants from the 5gall
(Betta
> > >
> > > is
> > >
> > >>>shredding them anyway) but probably do this in the morning rather
than
> > >>>tonight.
> > >>>
> > >>>I remember Daniel saying in a previous post when this problem first
> > >
> > > started
> > >
> > >>>with the imprisoned Clown that he has successfully treated Ich just
> with
> > >>>raised temps and water changes. Maybe, for the good of the other
fish,
> I
> > >>>ought to try just doing that - nothing else is working :-(
> > >>>
> > >>>The gunk in the syphon filter is easily explained - I have a
> > >
> > > slight/large
> > >
> > >>>algae problem in the tank. I was a bit ferocious with the gravel
clean
> > >
> > > last
> > >
> > >>>night so kept sucking up the loosened algae. Of course some of that
> then
> > >>>found its way into the inlet of the filter as well which is why I
> > >
> > > cleaned it
> > >
> > >>>to be on the safe side.
> > >>>
> > >>>Thanks for your continued support and advice
> > >>>Gill
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>Yes, take the airstone from your Malawi tank! It will help things a
> > >>lot. Remember, plants help during the day, but not at night. Some
> > >>plants even use O2 when it's dark. I'd hold off until the tank's back
> > >>to normal to move plants from another tank myself.
> > >>
> > >>Don't sweat the medicine level and water changes. Keep changing
water!
> > >> Remember, the heat is the main treatment now. Formalin reacts
pretty
> > >>quickly with DOCs in the water and so is already vanishing anyway, and
> > >>you add the current amount of salt to the replacement water. BTW,
> > >>wherever you are in tsp salt/5 gallons, I'd stop there for a day or
two
> > >>and maybe even add less to the water change water. I'm concerned
about
> > >>that neon you lost and the heat and salt.
> > >>
> > >>For plants, the heat is actually more of a problem than below 0.1%
salt.
> > >> Remember that if your crypts melt or grasses die back, they'll
regrow
> > >>from the roots fairly quickly.
> > >>
> > >>I'm sorry about the neon, but glad your clowns might be looking
better.
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>Elaine T __
> > >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Managed to borrow an air brick and everyone is looking much happier
and
> back
> > > to normal....the little Clowns are now playing in the bubbles....still
> > > spotty but I really think these are starting to reduce. Two of them
seem
> to
> > > have lost some - the other two I'm not too sure.
> > >
> > > The tetras are now behaving as they do normally and the Pl*co has
> returned
> > > to his cave - wish he was out more in reality - he is really beautiful
> and
> > > was lovely to watch - I think he came out because he was more hungry
> than
> > > usual - he rested on a broad leaf and chewed at the algae. The male
> Gourami
> > > is now chasing his girls round the tank as usual.
> > >
> > > Haven't done a water change as the air brick seems to have worked. But
I
> am
> > > going to monitor this.
> > >
> > > Found out the reason for the oxygen crisis. Last night when hubbie put
> the
> > > inlet valve back in he forgot to turn on the pump (doh). It went back
on
> at
> > > around midday making 14 hours with no water circulation - I think I'm
> very
> > > lucky that I only lost one fish - someone must like my fish. Certainly
a
> > > very unwanted test of NetMax's theory on how to check on overstocked
> tank.
> > >
> > > Gill
> > >
> >
> > Eep! Glad things are looking so much better.
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
> > http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of them :-)
> The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
Feeding
> well and dancing still.
>
> Everyone else is present and correct - phew
>
> Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
>
> Thanks again very everything
> Gill
>
>
Still spotty :-(

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message

>>Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of them :-)
>>The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
>
> Feeding
>
>>well and dancing still.
>>
>>Everyone else is present and correct - phew
>>
>>Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
>>
>>Thanks again very everything
>>Gill
>>
>>
>
> Still spotty :-(
>
It still takes a few days for the spots to mature and fall off. Then
hopefully they die. As long as the loaches are not getting spottier or
no other fish are getting spots, you're on track.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> >>Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of them
:-)
> >>The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
> >
> > Feeding
> >
> >>well and dancing still.
> >>
> >>Everyone else is present and correct - phew
> >>
> >>Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
> >>
> >>Thanks again very everything
> >>Gill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Still spotty :-(
> >
> It still takes a few days for the spots to mature and fall off. Then
> hopefully they die. As long as the loaches are not getting spottier or
> no other fish are getting spots, you're on track.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

still spotty :-( but still eating and dancing....no other fish are showing
any signs

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >
> > >>Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of them
> :-)
> > >>The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
> > >
> > > Feeding
> > >
> > >>well and dancing still.
> > >>
> > >>Everyone else is present and correct - phew
> > >>
> > >>Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
> > >>
> > >>Thanks again very everything
> > >>Gill
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Still spotty :-(
> > >
> > It still takes a few days for the spots to mature and fall off. Then
> > hopefully they die. As long as the loaches are not getting spottier or
> > no other fish are getting spots, you're on track.
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
> > http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> still spotty :-( but still eating and dancing....no other fish are showing
> any signs
>
>

New plan of action....just been to LFS and discussed this (he has never seen
this type of resistance to treatment either).

First thing is lights out in the tank for 3-4 days along with Carbon in the
filter to pull out the last of the Interpet medication that isn't working.
Keep the temp raised and going with the salt. After 3-4 days try a different
medication - called Protozin - this is a four dose course - days 1,2,3 and
6.

If this doesn't work it's back to trying to up the salt levels gradually and
be prepared for big water changes if anyone gets stressed.

I just can't believe that this is still ongoing and that I can't shift
it.....

Gill

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:
> New plan of action....just been to LFS and discussed this (he has never seen
> this type of resistance to treatment either).
>
> First thing is lights out in the tank for 3-4 days along with Carbon in the
> filter to pull out the last of the Interpet medication that isn't working.
> Keep the temp raised and going with the salt. After 3-4 days try a different
> medication - called Protozin - this is a four dose course - days 1,2,3 and
> 6.

I had the lights out for a week. After the original treatment proved to
be ineffective, and many deaths, I used carbon to pull out all the
treatment to replace it with another from a different manufacturer. That
original treatment was Protozin. So I hope you're not doing this in
vain. I tried something called Esha Exit. Its instructions say that it
cures ich within three days. So I couldn't take it seriously, and I'm
not sure whether it helped at all. The thing that finally cleared the
tank of ich was vacuuming the tank meticulously, daily, including
changing 20% water. But the most seriously infected fish were dead anyway.

With hindsight, what I should have done immediately on noticing the
clown loaches with ich was to place them in a bare bottomed quarantine
tank, treating them separately.

> If this doesn't work it's back to trying to up the salt levels gradually and
> be prepared for big water changes if anyone gets stressed.

I think you should do water changes daily including vacuuming. Do you
know the pH of your tap water? Mine is about 7.10. Your tank will be
about 8.1? The pH swing could stress them too if the new water isn't
aerated to dissipate the CO2, that's if your tap water is like mine.

> I just can't believe that this is still ongoing and that I can't shift
> it.....

I know. I can imagine the anxiety you're going through. It's an ich incubus.

Nikki

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>>Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of them
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>>>>The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
>>>>
>>>>Feeding
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>well and dancing still.
>>>>>
>>>>>Everyone else is present and correct - phew
>>>>>
>>>>>Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks again very everything
>>>>>Gill
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Still spotty :-(
>>>>
>>>
>>>It still takes a few days for the spots to mature and fall off. Then
>>>hopefully they die. As long as the loaches are not getting spottier or
>>>no other fish are getting spots, you're on track.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Elaine T __
>>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>>
>>still spotty :-( but still eating and dancing....no other fish are showing
>>any signs
>>
>>
>
>
> New plan of action....just been to LFS and discussed this (he has never seen
> this type of resistance to treatment either).
>
> First thing is lights out in the tank for 3-4 days along with Carbon in the
> filter to pull out the last of the Interpet medication that isn't working.

Lights out is a velvet treatment and is not useful for ich at all. Does
LFS guy think it's velvet rather than ich? Velvet doesn't usually have
visible white spots, but rather a looks like a sort of golden haze on
the fish. Carbon is fine on the off chance that there is any formalin left.

> Keep the temp raised and going with the salt. After 3-4 days try a different
> medication - called Protozin - this is a four dose course - days 1,2,3 and
> 6.
>
> If this doesn't work it's back to trying to up the salt levels gradually and
> be prepared for big water changes if anyone gets stressed.
>
> I just can't believe that this is still ongoing and that I can't shift
> it.....
>
> Gill
>
I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did you
ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration? I
can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Gill Passman wrote:
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
>>>
>>>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>>Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of
>>>>>>them
>>>
>>>:-)
>>>
>>>>>>The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
>>>>>
>>>>>Feeding
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>well and dancing still.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Everyone else is present and correct - phew
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks again very everything
>>>>>>Gill
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Still spotty :-(
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It still takes a few days for the spots to mature and fall off. Then
>>>>hopefully they die. As long as the loaches are not getting spottier
>>>>or
>>>>no other fish are getting spots, you're on track.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Elaine T __
>>>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>>>
>>>still spotty :-( but still eating and dancing....no other fish are
>>>showing
>>>any signs
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> New plan of action....just been to LFS and discussed this (he has
>> never seen
>> this type of resistance to treatment either).
>>
>> First thing is lights out in the tank for 3-4 days along with Carbon
>> in the
>> filter to pull out the last of the Interpet medication that isn't
>> working.
>
> Lights out is a velvet treatment and is not useful for ich at all.
> Does LFS guy think it's velvet rather than ich? Velvet doesn't usually
> have visible white spots, but rather a looks like a sort of golden haze
> on the fish. Carbon is fine on the off chance that there is any
> formalin left.
>
>> Keep the temp raised and going with the salt. After 3-4 days try a
>> different
>> medication - called Protozin - this is a four dose course - days 1,2,3
>> and
>> 6.
>>
>> If this doesn't work it's back to trying to up the salt levels
>> gradually and
>> be prepared for big water changes if anyone gets stressed.
>>
>> I just can't believe that this is still ongoing and that I can't shift
>> it.....
>>
>> Gill
>>
> I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did
> you ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration?
> I can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!
>
> --
> Elaine T __

The light's UV component breaks down the malachite green, though how much
UV the light generates and how significant it is overall is anyone's
guess. Nikki mentions a separate bare-bottom tank for treating CLs for
Ich, an *excellent* idea imo.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
.. .
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> >>
> >>>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>>>>Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of them
> >>
> >>:-)
> >>
> >>>>>The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
> >>>>
> >>>>Feeding
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>well and dancing still.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Everyone else is present and correct - phew
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Thanks again very everything
> >>>>>Gill
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Still spotty :-(
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>It still takes a few days for the spots to mature and fall off. Then
> >>>hopefully they die. As long as the loaches are not getting spottier or
> >>>no other fish are getting spots, you're on track.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Elaine T __
> >>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >>
> >>still spotty :-( but still eating and dancing....no other fish are
showing
> >>any signs
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > New plan of action....just been to LFS and discussed this (he has never
seen
> > this type of resistance to treatment either).
> >
> > First thing is lights out in the tank for 3-4 days along with Carbon in
the
> > filter to pull out the last of the Interpet medication that isn't
working.
>
> Lights out is a velvet treatment and is not useful for ich at all. Does
> LFS guy think it's velvet rather than ich? Velvet doesn't usually have
> visible white spots, but rather a looks like a sort of golden haze on
> the fish. Carbon is fine on the off chance that there is any formalin
left.
>
> > Keep the temp raised and going with the salt. After 3-4 days try a
different
> > medication - called Protozin - this is a four dose course - days 1,2,3
and
> > 6.
> >
> > If this doesn't work it's back to trying to up the salt levels gradually
and
> > be prepared for big water changes if anyone gets stressed.
> >
> > I just can't believe that this is still ongoing and that I can't shift
> > it.....
> >
> > Gill
> >
> I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did you
> ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration? I
> can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Firstly, the LFS guy is as lost as we all are. He read somewhere on the web
someone suggesting turning out lights as a treatment which in his opinion
was nutty at best without any other treatment. But his idea was if you look
at Ich outbreaks relating to stress then turning out the lights therefore
reducing any stress levels and continuing treatment might help....afterall
we are clutching at straws here....He wants an update asap....(and it wasn't
his water - haven't spoken to them about it yet).

The Protozin doesn't affect the bacteria - says that on the box, but after
tonights results I am hoping that I might be through the worst. One clown is
down to just two spots and I can see some reduction, at long last, on the
other 3. I did a 20% change and added 2 tbsp of salt again (chemical
treatment isn't an option until the previous stuff clears in a couple more
days with the carbon)....the hope being I can catch the thing in the water
now it has started to drop off the clowns....lights are on at the moment -
it's the only way I can check the spots but will be going off again shortly.

Another thing that confuses me is these fish really should be dead by
now...but they are eating and dancing and have their usual colour. The only
thing I can put it down to is that they were healthy to begin with (which
rather defeats the arguement that healthy fish don't get sick)...and that
combined with the build up diet really helping them.....

Maybe I will beat this....please, I hope....

You should have all seen the kids dancing round the room when we saw the
reduction in spots one of them....priceless :-)

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >>
> >>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> >>>
> >>>>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>>>Checked them this morning and the spots are reducing on three of
> >>>>>>them
> >>>
> >>>:-)
> >>>
> >>>>>>The fourth is still quite spotty but think they might be lessening.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Feeding
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>well and dancing still.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Everyone else is present and correct - phew
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Just have to see how it is when I get home from work tonight.....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Thanks again very everything
> >>>>>>Gill
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Still spotty :-(
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>It still takes a few days for the spots to mature and fall off. Then
> >>>>hopefully they die. As long as the loaches are not getting spottier
> >>>>or
> >>>>no other fish are getting spots, you're on track.
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Elaine T __
> >>>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >>>
> >>>still spotty :-( but still eating and dancing....no other fish are
> >>>showing
> >>>any signs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> New plan of action....just been to LFS and discussed this (he has
> >> never seen
> >> this type of resistance to treatment either).
> >>
> >> First thing is lights out in the tank for 3-4 days along with Carbon
> >> in the
> >> filter to pull out the last of the Interpet medication that isn't
> >> working.
> >
> > Lights out is a velvet treatment and is not useful for ich at all.
> > Does LFS guy think it's velvet rather than ich? Velvet doesn't usually
> > have visible white spots, but rather a looks like a sort of golden haze
> > on the fish. Carbon is fine on the off chance that there is any
> > formalin left.
> >
> >> Keep the temp raised and going with the salt. After 3-4 days try a
> >> different
> >> medication - called Protozin - this is a four dose course - days 1,2,3
> >> and
> >> 6.
> >>
> >> If this doesn't work it's back to trying to up the salt levels
> >> gradually and
> >> be prepared for big water changes if anyone gets stressed.
> >>
> >> I just can't believe that this is still ongoing and that I can't shift
> >> it.....
> >>
> >> Gill
> >>
> > I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did
> > you ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration?
> > I can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
>
> The light's UV component breaks down the malachite green, though how much
> UV the light generates and how significant it is overall is anyone's
> guess. Nikki mentions a separate bare-bottom tank for treating CLs for
> Ich, an *excellent* idea imo.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
The only thing that worries me about using a bare bottom tank to treat this
(apart from I don't have one at the moment, which could be easily sorted) is
the fact that this is a water carried parasite....yes I could clear the
clowns but there is still the potential that the Ich is in the water of the
main tank, which I'm very sure is the case , that's how they got it in the
first place. I don't know if the other fish are affected - they show no
signs including my two large loaches but this is something I don't know for
sure. I could actually put the infected clowns back in once clear only for
them to get infected again....

Just my IMHO on this....

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> .. .
>>
>>I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did you
>>ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration? I
>>can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
> Firstly, the LFS guy is as lost as we all are. He read somewhere on the web
> someone suggesting turning out lights as a treatment which in his opinion
> was nutty at best without any other treatment. But his idea was if you look
> at Ich outbreaks relating to stress then turning out the lights therefore
> reducing any stress levels and continuing treatment might help....afterall
> we are clutching at straws here....He wants an update asap....(and it wasn't
> his water - haven't spoken to them about it yet).
>
> The Protozin doesn't affect the bacteria - says that on the box, but after
> tonights results I am hoping that I might be through the worst. One clown is
> down to just two spots and I can see some reduction, at long last, on the
> other 3. I did a 20% change and added 2 tbsp of salt again (chemical
> treatment isn't an option until the previous stuff clears in a couple more
> days with the carbon)....the hope being I can catch the thing in the water
> now it has started to drop off the clowns....lights are on at the moment -
> it's the only way I can check the spots but will be going off again shortly.
>
> Another thing that confuses me is these fish really should be dead by
> now...but they are eating and dancing and have their usual colour. The only
> thing I can put it down to is that they were healthy to begin with (which
> rather defeats the arguement that healthy fish don't get sick)...and that
> combined with the build up diet really helping them.....
>
> Maybe I will beat this....please, I hope....
>
> You should have all seen the kids dancing round the room when we saw the
> reduction in spots one of them....priceless :-)
>
>
So he DID have the velvet/ich lights out confusion. What NetMax says
about lights out and malachite green at least makes sense.

Your fish shouldn't really be dead by now. Having some ich spots on the
skin isn't a horrible condition for a fish. It's really only deadly
when it gets into the gills or is on the skin so badly that the comes
off in sheets. You've been fighting the parasites all along (just not
as well as you'd have liked) so you have kept the infecton at a
reasonable level.

Sounds like you are through the worst. The high temps and salt is a
great combination for ich. It's just coming off more slowly than usual.
Maybe you won't even have to use the protozin.

Glad to hear the kids are happy - that makes all the work and water
changes worthwhile, I bet.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > New plan of action....just been to LFS and discussed this (he has never
seen
> > this type of resistance to treatment either).
> >
> > First thing is lights out in the tank for 3-4 days along with Carbon in
the
> > filter to pull out the last of the Interpet medication that isn't
working.
> > Keep the temp raised and going with the salt. After 3-4 days try a
different
> > medication - called Protozin - this is a four dose course - days 1,2,3
and
> > 6.
>
> I had the lights out for a week. After the original treatment proved to
> be ineffective, and many deaths, I used carbon to pull out all the
> treatment to replace it with another from a different manufacturer. That
> original treatment was Protozin. So I hope you're not doing this in
> vain. I tried something called Esha Exit. Its instructions say that it
> cures ich within three days. So I couldn't take it seriously, and I'm
> not sure whether it helped at all. The thing that finally cleared the
> tank of ich was vacuuming the tank meticulously, daily, including
> changing 20% water. But the most seriously infected fish were dead anyway.
>
> With hindsight, what I should have done immediately on noticing the
> clown loaches with ich was to place them in a bare bottomed quarantine
> tank, treating them separately.
>
> > If this doesn't work it's back to trying to up the salt levels gradually
and
> > be prepared for big water changes if anyone gets stressed.
>
> I think you should do water changes daily including vacuuming. Do you
> know the pH of your tap water? Mine is about 7.10. Your tank will be
> about 8.1? The pH swing could stress them too if the new water isn't
> aerated to dissipate the CO2, that's if your tap water is like mine.
>
> > I just can't believe that this is still ongoing and that I can't shift
> > it.....
>
> I know. I can imagine the anxiety you're going through. It's an ich
incubus.
>
> Nikki
>
I don't have a CO2 unit in the tank...keep thinking about it but something
always holds me back (something about fish needing oxygen). I'm still using
my usual formula for water changes just adding some salt at the moment.

Did a 20% tonight....

I am seeing some movement with the spots...one of them was down to just two
or three...they are dropping off the others....hopefully the salt and temp
will sort it...I have no other option for another 2 days until the last
batch of chemicals go from the water.

From your experience and mine I seriously think that Ich is developing
resistance to treatment....I used the treatment I did this time before in
this tank (cleared in 2 days) but this time it didn't work. Also I think
that some of the fish are resistant to Ich - my two big clowns haven't got a
spot on them but last time it was them that were infected (a few days after
I got them).

Providing my fish survive - I think this might be quite an interesting
study....

I can't believe that the fish themselves are acting as if they are totally
healthy...dancing, feeding, playing and normal colour...after this length of
time they surely should have got very sick.....

Here's hoping
Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >>
> >>I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did you
> >>ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration? I
> >>can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!
> >>
> >>--
> >>Elaine T __
> >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> > Firstly, the LFS guy is as lost as we all are. He read somewhere on the
web
> > someone suggesting turning out lights as a treatment which in his
opinion
> > was nutty at best without any other treatment. But his idea was if you
look
> > at Ich outbreaks relating to stress then turning out the lights
therefore
> > reducing any stress levels and continuing treatment might
help....afterall
> > we are clutching at straws here....He wants an update asap....(and it
wasn't
> > his water - haven't spoken to them about it yet).
> >
> > The Protozin doesn't affect the bacteria - says that on the box, but
after
> > tonights results I am hoping that I might be through the worst. One
clown is
> > down to just two spots and I can see some reduction, at long last, on
the
> > other 3. I did a 20% change and added 2 tbsp of salt again (chemical
> > treatment isn't an option until the previous stuff clears in a couple
more
> > days with the carbon)....the hope being I can catch the thing in the
water
> > now it has started to drop off the clowns....lights are on at the
moment -
> > it's the only way I can check the spots but will be going off again
shortly.
> >
> > Another thing that confuses me is these fish really should be dead by
> > now...but they are eating and dancing and have their usual colour. The
only
> > thing I can put it down to is that they were healthy to begin with (whic
h
> > rather defeats the arguement that healthy fish don't get sick)...and
that
> > combined with the build up diet really helping them.....
> >
> > Maybe I will beat this....please, I hope....
> >
> > You should have all seen the kids dancing round the room when we saw the
> > reduction in spots one of them....priceless :-)
> >
> >
> So he DID have the velvet/ich lights out confusion. What NetMax says
> about lights out and malachite green at least makes sense.
>
> Your fish shouldn't really be dead by now. Having some ich spots on the
> skin isn't a horrible condition for a fish. It's really only deadly
> when it gets into the gills or is on the skin so badly that the comes
> off in sheets. You've been fighting the parasites all along (just not
> as well as you'd have liked) so you have kept the infecton at a
> reasonable level.
>
> Sounds like you are through the worst. The high temps and salt is a
> great combination for ich. It's just coming off more slowly than usual.
> Maybe you won't even have to use the protozin.
>
> Glad to hear the kids are happy - that makes all the work and water
> changes worthwhile, I bet.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

No confusion....clutching at straws he suggested reducing the stress by
turning out the lights with absolutely no faith in it at all (something he'd
read on the web without believing in it but at this point let's try
anythin)....I know he'll hang in here just as much as you guys....very much
appreciated and it has been a great support....

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...>
> "NetMax" > wrote...
>> "Elaine T" > wrote...
>> > Gill Passman wrote:
>> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
>> >>>"Elaine T" > wrote
<snip>

>> The light's UV component breaks down the malachite green, though how
>> much
>> UV the light generates and how significant it is overall is anyone's
>> guess. Nikki mentions a separate bare-bottom tank for treating CLs
>> for
>> Ich, an *excellent* idea imo.
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
> The only thing that worries me about using a bare bottom tank to treat
> this
> (apart from I don't have one at the moment, which could be easily
> sorted) is
> the fact that this is a water carried parasite....yes I could clear the
> clowns but there is still the potential that the Ich is in the water of
> the
> main tank, which I'm very sure is the case , that's how they got it in
> the
> first place. I don't know if the other fish are affected - they show no
> signs including my two large loaches but this is something I don't know
> for
> sure. I could actually put the infected clowns back in once clear only
> for
> them to get infected again....
>
> Just my IMHO on this....

Isolating the CLs into a bare bottom tank lets you do three things.
First, each tank can follow a different treatment, typically a longer
lower dosage treatment for the scaleless Clowns, and a more aggressive
treatment into the main tank. Second, the bare bottom tank lets you
siphon out the cysts (tomites, tromonts whatever..) which settle at the
bottom (significantly reducing the concentration of Ich in the water).
Thirdly, it removes the unfortunate ability of the Clowns to act as
hosts, creating that long lasting version of Ich for the rest of the fish
(especially if it's the CL's first exposure to Ich in captivity, which
seems to be the worse).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...>
> > "NetMax" > wrote...
> >> "Elaine T" > wrote...
> >> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> >> >>>"Elaine T" > wrote
> <snip>
>
> >> The light's UV component breaks down the malachite green, though how
> >> much
> >> UV the light generates and how significant it is overall is anyone's
> >> guess. Nikki mentions a separate bare-bottom tank for treating CLs
> >> for
> >> Ich, an *excellent* idea imo.
> >> --
> >> www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> >>
> > The only thing that worries me about using a bare bottom tank to treat
> > this
> > (apart from I don't have one at the moment, which could be easily
> > sorted) is
> > the fact that this is a water carried parasite....yes I could clear the
> > clowns but there is still the potential that the Ich is in the water of
> > the
> > main tank, which I'm very sure is the case , that's how they got it in
> > the
> > first place. I don't know if the other fish are affected - they show no
> > signs including my two large loaches but this is something I don't know
> > for
> > sure. I could actually put the infected clowns back in once clear only
> > for
> > them to get infected again....
> >
> > Just my IMHO on this....
>
> Isolating the CLs into a bare bottom tank lets you do three things.
> First, each tank can follow a different treatment, typically a longer
> lower dosage treatment for the scaleless Clowns, and a more aggressive
> treatment into the main tank. Second, the bare bottom tank lets you
> siphon out the cysts (tomites, tromonts whatever..) which settle at the
> bottom (significantly reducing the concentration of Ich in the water).
> Thirdly, it removes the unfortunate ability of the Clowns to act as
> hosts, creating that long lasting version of Ich for the rest of the fish
> (especially if it's the CL's first exposure to Ich in captivity, which
> seems to be the worse).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
This is the second exposure for these guys and every other fish in the
tank....last time they didn't get it....this time they have it and the ones
that had it before are clear leading me to suspect that you were right in
something Elaine reported you had observed that these fish can build up an
immunity to this....what worries me a lot is that it also appears that the
Ich have an immunity to the treatement

But yes, I see what you mean about the qt tank....not an option for a day or
so

[NetMax]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...>
>> > "NetMax" > wrote...
>> >> "Elaine T" > wrote...
>> >> > Gill Passman wrote:
>> >> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
>> >> >>>"Elaine T" > wrote
>> <snip>
>>
>> >> The light's UV component breaks down the malachite green, though
>> >> how
>> >> much
>> >> UV the light generates and how significant it is overall is
>> >> anyone's
>> >> guess. Nikki mentions a separate bare-bottom tank for treating CLs
>> >> for
>> >> Ich, an *excellent* idea imo.
>> >> --
>> >> www.NetMax.tk
>> >>
>> >>
>> > The only thing that worries me about using a bare bottom tank to
>> > treat
>> > this
>> > (apart from I don't have one at the moment, which could be easily
>> > sorted) is
>> > the fact that this is a water carried parasite....yes I could clear
>> > the
>> > clowns but there is still the potential that the Ich is in the water
>> > of
>> > the
>> > main tank, which I'm very sure is the case , that's how they got it
>> > in
>> > the
>> > first place. I don't know if the other fish are affected - they show
>> > no
>> > signs including my two large loaches but this is something I don't
>> > know
>> > for
>> > sure. I could actually put the infected clowns back in once clear
>> > only
>> > for
>> > them to get infected again....
>> >
>> > Just my IMHO on this....
>>
>> Isolating the CLs into a bare bottom tank lets you do three things.
>> First, each tank can follow a different treatment, typically a longer
>> lower dosage treatment for the scaleless Clowns, and a more aggressive
>> treatment into the main tank. Second, the bare bottom tank lets you
>> siphon out the cysts (tomites, tromonts whatever..) which settle at
>> the
>> bottom (significantly reducing the concentration of Ich in the water).
>> Thirdly, it removes the unfortunate ability of the Clowns to act as
>> hosts, creating that long lasting version of Ich for the rest of the
>> fish
>> (especially if it's the CL's first exposure to Ich in captivity, which
>> seems to be the worse).
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
>>
> This is the second exposure for these guys and every other fish in the
> tank....last time they didn't get it....this time they have it and the
> ones
> that had it before are clear leading me to suspect that you were right
> in
> something Elaine reported you had observed that these fish can build up
> an
> immunity to this....what worries me a lot is that it also appears that
> the
> Ich have an immunity to the treatement
>
> But yes, I see what you mean about the qt tank....not an option for a
> day or
> so


Personally, I would be more worried if they had a bacterial infection
which was developing an immunity to an antibiotic regiment. As a
relatively slow-reproducing external parasite, it's not that difficult
for fish to develop their own immunity to Ich. If the fish are getting
healthier, then the Ich's immunity to meds might be a non-issue, as they
will have a hard time finding a suitable host to keep their life cycle
going. Keep the fish healthy, the water clean and try to siphon out the
tomonts.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml has a very
analytical view of Ichthyophthirius multifiiis (Ich).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >>
> >>I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did you
> >>ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration? I
> >>can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!
> >>
> >>--
> >>Elaine T __
> >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> > Firstly, the LFS guy is as lost as we all are. He read somewhere on the
web
> > someone suggesting turning out lights as a treatment which in his
opinion
> > was nutty at best without any other treatment. But his idea was if you
look
> > at Ich outbreaks relating to stress then turning out the lights
therefore
> > reducing any stress levels and continuing treatment might
help....afterall
> > we are clutching at straws here....He wants an update asap....(and it
wasn't
> > his water - haven't spoken to them about it yet).
> >
> > The Protozin doesn't affect the bacteria - says that on the box, but
after
> > tonights results I am hoping that I might be through the worst. One
clown is
> > down to just two spots and I can see some reduction, at long last, on
the
> > other 3. I did a 20% change and added 2 tbsp of salt again (chemical
> > treatment isn't an option until the previous stuff clears in a couple
more
> > days with the carbon)....the hope being I can catch the thing in the
water
> > now it has started to drop off the clowns....lights are on at the
moment -
> > it's the only way I can check the spots but will be going off again
shortly.
> >
> > Another thing that confuses me is these fish really should be dead by
> > now...but they are eating and dancing and have their usual colour. The
only
> > thing I can put it down to is that they were healthy to begin with (whic
h
> > rather defeats the arguement that healthy fish don't get sick)...and
that
> > combined with the build up diet really helping them.....
> >
> > Maybe I will beat this....please, I hope....
> >
> > You should have all seen the kids dancing round the room when we saw the
> > reduction in spots one of them....priceless :-)
> >
> >
> So he DID have the velvet/ich lights out confusion. What NetMax says
> about lights out and malachite green at least makes sense.
>
> Your fish shouldn't really be dead by now. Having some ich spots on the
> skin isn't a horrible condition for a fish. It's really only deadly
> when it gets into the gills or is on the skin so badly that the comes
> off in sheets. You've been fighting the parasites all along (just not
> as well as you'd have liked) so you have kept the infecton at a
> reasonable level.
>
> Sounds like you are through the worst. The high temps and salt is a
> great combination for ich. It's just coming off more slowly than usual.
> Maybe you won't even have to use the protozin.
>
> Glad to hear the kids are happy - that makes all the work and water
> changes worthwhile, I bet.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

One of them is now completely clear - however the other 3 look worse....more
water change and salt top up tonight - can't use the Protozin until
tomorrow...

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...>
> >> > "NetMax" > wrote...
> >> >> "Elaine T" > wrote...
> >> >> > Gill Passman wrote:
> >> >> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote...
> >> >> >>>"Elaine T" > wrote
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> >> The light's UV component breaks down the malachite green, though
> >> >> how
> >> >> much
> >> >> UV the light generates and how significant it is overall is
> >> >> anyone's
> >> >> guess. Nikki mentions a separate bare-bottom tank for treating CLs
> >> >> for
> >> >> Ich, an *excellent* idea imo.
> >> >> --
> >> >> www.NetMax.tk
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > The only thing that worries me about using a bare bottom tank to
> >> > treat
> >> > this
> >> > (apart from I don't have one at the moment, which could be easily
> >> > sorted) is
> >> > the fact that this is a water carried parasite....yes I could clear
> >> > the
> >> > clowns but there is still the potential that the Ich is in the water
> >> > of
> >> > the
> >> > main tank, which I'm very sure is the case , that's how they got it
> >> > in
> >> > the
> >> > first place. I don't know if the other fish are affected - they show
> >> > no
> >> > signs including my two large loaches but this is something I don't
> >> > know
> >> > for
> >> > sure. I could actually put the infected clowns back in once clear
> >> > only
> >> > for
> >> > them to get infected again....
> >> >
> >> > Just my IMHO on this....
> >>
> >> Isolating the CLs into a bare bottom tank lets you do three things.
> >> First, each tank can follow a different treatment, typically a longer
> >> lower dosage treatment for the scaleless Clowns, and a more aggressive
> >> treatment into the main tank. Second, the bare bottom tank lets you
> >> siphon out the cysts (tomites, tromonts whatever..) which settle at
> >> the
> >> bottom (significantly reducing the concentration of Ich in the water).
> >> Thirdly, it removes the unfortunate ability of the Clowns to act as
> >> hosts, creating that long lasting version of Ich for the rest of the
> >> fish
> >> (especially if it's the CL's first exposure to Ich in captivity, which
> >> seems to be the worse).
> >> --
> >> www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> >>
> > This is the second exposure for these guys and every other fish in the
> > tank....last time they didn't get it....this time they have it and the
> > ones
> > that had it before are clear leading me to suspect that you were right
> > in
> > something Elaine reported you had observed that these fish can build up
> > an
> > immunity to this....what worries me a lot is that it also appears that
> > the
> > Ich have an immunity to the treatement
> >
> > But yes, I see what you mean about the qt tank....not an option for a
> > day or
> > so
>
>
> Personally, I would be more worried if they had a bacterial infection
> which was developing an immunity to an antibiotic regiment. As a
> relatively slow-reproducing external parasite, it's not that difficult
> for fish to develop their own immunity to Ich. If the fish are getting
> healthier, then the Ich's immunity to meds might be a non-issue, as they
> will have a hard time finding a suitable host to keep their life cycle
> going. Keep the fish healthy, the water clean and try to siphon out the
> tomonts.
> http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml has a very
> analytical view of Ichthyophthirius multifiiis (Ich).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
Thanks....I found that really interesting and helpful

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > > .. .
> > >>
> > >>I'm surprised too. Are you raising the salt any higher? Also, did
you
> > >>ask the LFS guy about whether Protozin affects your biofiltration? I
> > >>can't find any info on the ingredients. I hope it's good stuff!
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>Elaine T __
> > >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Firstly, the LFS guy is as lost as we all are. He read somewhere on
the
> web
> > > someone suggesting turning out lights as a treatment which in his
> opinion
> > > was nutty at best without any other treatment. But his idea was if you
> look
> > > at Ich outbreaks relating to stress then turning out the lights
> therefore
> > > reducing any stress levels and continuing treatment might
> help....afterall
> > > we are clutching at straws here....He wants an update asap....(and it
> wasn't
> > > his water - haven't spoken to them about it yet).
> > >
> > > The Protozin doesn't affect the bacteria - says that on the box, but
> after
> > > tonights results I am hoping that I might be through the worst. One
> clown is
> > > down to just two spots and I can see some reduction, at long last, on
> the
> > > other 3. I did a 20% change and added 2 tbsp of salt again (chemical
> > > treatment isn't an option until the previous stuff clears in a couple
> more
> > > days with the carbon)....the hope being I can catch the thing in the
> water
> > > now it has started to drop off the clowns....lights are on at the
> moment -
> > > it's the only way I can check the spots but will be going off again
> shortly.
> > >
> > > Another thing that confuses me is these fish really should be dead by
> > > now...but they are eating and dancing and have their usual colour. The
> only
> > > thing I can put it down to is that they were healthy to begin with
(whic
> h
> > > rather defeats the arguement that healthy fish don't get sick)...and
> that
> > > combined with the build up diet really helping them.....
> > >
> > > Maybe I will beat this....please, I hope....
> > >
> > > You should have all seen the kids dancing round the room when we saw
the
> > > reduction in spots one of them....priceless :-)
> > >
> > >
> > So he DID have the velvet/ich lights out confusion. What NetMax says
> > about lights out and malachite green at least makes sense.
> >
> > Your fish shouldn't really be dead by now. Having some ich spots on the
> > skin isn't a horrible condition for a fish. It's really only deadly
> > when it gets into the gills or is on the skin so badly that the comes
> > off in sheets. You've been fighting the parasites all along (just not
> > as well as you'd have liked) so you have kept the infecton at a
> > reasonable level.
> >
> > Sounds like you are through the worst. The high temps and salt is a
> > great combination for ich. It's just coming off more slowly than usual.
> > Maybe you won't even have to use the protozin.
> >
> > Glad to hear the kids are happy - that makes all the work and water
> > changes worthwhile, I bet.
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
> > http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> One of them is now completely clear - however the other 3 look
worse....more
> water change and salt top up tonight - can't use the Protozin until
> tomorrow...
>
>
Tonight's update - a second clown seems to be shifting it....the first is
still clear as are the two larger ones and everyone else....not sure about
the salt level - they seem fine but a little bit twitchy (the little
ones)....might do a 40-50% change tomorrow....

Fingers crossed.....I'll wait and see what the morning brings