Average life of Yellow Tang.

[Russ J.]

Hello Group !

I've had a Yellow Tang for 5 years -- since I've set up my FO. It is now
showing Lateral Line -- I think. White area around the head. It is very
big -- approx 3.5 dia. I've been feeding Seaweed select = Julian Sprung
Algae etc foreevr. - Still eats well but beginning to scratch at the very
top of it's head. Very Fat !!! What is their life expectancy in a home
aqurium???

Thanks

RHJ

[George Patterson]

Russ J. wrote:
>
> I've had a Yellow Tang for 5 years -- since I've set up my FO. It is now
> showing Lateral Line -- I think. White area around the head. It is very
> big -- approx 3.5 dia. I've been feeding Seaweed select = Julian Sprung
> Algae etc foreevr. - Still eats well but beginning to scratch at the very
> top of it's head. Very Fat !!! What is their life expectancy in a home
> aqurium???

Five years is pretty good, though I've got a powder blue that I've had for six
or seven. Anyway, the first thing I would do in your case is to add a ground rod
to the tank (I'm assuming you don't have one). Tangs frequently react like this
to stray electrical discharges. The rods are tungsten, I believe, and attach to
a wire which you hook to the frame of a *grounded* electrical outlet. Be
prepared to have some piece of equipment give up the ghost shortly after setting
this up -- in my case, a powerhead died almost immediately.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:rbC6e.15396$nt3.142@trndny04...
> Russ J. wrote:
>>
>> I've had a Yellow Tang for 5 years -- since I've set up my FO. It is now
>> showing Lateral Line -- I think. White area around the head. It is very
>> big -- approx 3.5 dia. I've been feeding Seaweed select = Julian Sprung Algae
>> etc foreevr. - Still eats well but beginning to scratch at the very top of
>> it's head. Very Fat !!! What is their life expectancy in a home aqurium???
>
> Five years is pretty good, though I've got a powder blue that I've had for six
> or seven. Anyway, the first thing I would do in your case is to add a ground
> rod to the tank (I'm assuming you don't have one). Tangs frequently react like
> this to stray electrical discharges. The rods are tungsten, I believe, and
> attach to a wire which you hook to the frame of a *grounded* electrical
> outlet. Be prepared to have some piece of equipment give up the ghost shortly
> after setting this up -- in my case, a powerhead died almost immediately.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not the right
thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of the electrical
current in the aquarium and eliminate it. Here is the link: Read this
carefully:

http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/grounding.html

[George Patterson]

George wrote:
>
> I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not the right
> thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of the electrical
> current in the aquarium and eliminate it.

In my experience, istalling a grounding rod in the aquarium will find and
eliminate the current source almost immediately.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Charles Spitzer]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:QYT6e.5648$ok4.2374@trndny07...
> George wrote:
>>
>> I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not the
>> right thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of the
>> electrical current in the aquarium and eliminate it.
>
> In my experience, istalling a grounding rod in the aquarium will find and
> eliminate the current source almost immediately.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

yes it will, but it's fixing the symptom and not the problem. the problem
will still exist, and when you unplug the grounding rod and stick your hand
in, you could get zapped instead.

[Russ J.]

I am presently NOT getting "zapped". I was more concered about stray
voltages causing LLE. and jittery clown fish. Now I am not certain what to
do. The point of installing a ground and having the fish pass between the
device( if any ) giving off the voltage and the rod - puts it in a precarius
position. Kinda of like a invisible fence in the tank !

????



--
Russell Jankowski


A.M. SERVICE
440-333-4923

"Charles Spitzer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:QYT6e.5648$ok4.2374@trndny07...
>> George wrote:
>>>
>>> I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not
>>> the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of
>>> the electrical current in the aquarium and eliminate it.
>>
>> In my experience, istalling a grounding rod in the aquarium will find and
>> eliminate the current source almost immediately.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
>> mashed potatoes.
>
> yes it will, but it's fixing the symptom and not the problem. the problem
> will still exist, and when you unplug the grounding rod and stick your
> hand in, you could get zapped instead.
>
>

[George]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:QYT6e.5648$ok4.2374@trndny07...
> George wrote:
>>
>> I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not the
>> right thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of the
>> electrical current in the aquarium and eliminate it.
>
> In my experience, istalling a grounding rod in the aquarium will find and
> eliminate the current source almost immediately.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/grounding.html

I read with interest comments from
laurence-at-cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence)
regarding electrified aquariums. I also once read a magazine article on this
subject (FAMA Oct 1990, p62). As an electrical engineer, I think I'll throw
in my opinion on this subject.

Adding a ground to solve the problem of electricity leaking into the water is
not the right to go. It may save the owner from being shocked, but it will make
things worse for the tank inhabitants.

The problem is not the voltage level of the tank, but current flowing through
its occupants. Just as birds perched on a high voltage hydro wire don't notice
their bodies are 27,000 volts above ground potential, the same is true in an
aquarium. If one appliance is leaking electricity, but there are no paths to
ground (a glass or acrylic tank is a very good electrical insulator), then no
current will flow, and the fish would not know that they were not at ground
potential.

Thus everything will be fine until a grounded electrode is placed in
the tank. Now AC current will flow between the bad appliance and the ground.
This is how people are electrocuted in a bathtub when a radio or hair drier
plugged into the wall falls in. Current flows between the appliance
and the drain pipe (which is a good ground). If the victim's heart is in the
path of enough current flow, it will stop beating.

Since the conductivity of salt water is much higher than tap water, it would
probably be harder to electrocute marine fish. The fish will not enjoy
the current passing through its body though. Long term exposure to
even minute currents is probably not good.

On the flip side of this, the electrode grounding the tank will protect the
owner better, because most leaking current will flow through the electrode
(the least resistive path) and not the owner.

The solution to the electrified tank problem is to find out which components
are the culprits and repair or replace them.

I think it would be a good idea for owners to periodically check their tanks for
electrical leakage. The easiest way to do this is to put a voltmeter (AC)
between the water and ground (a good electrical ground - eg wall socket ground).
If you get a reading of more than a few volts, I would worry. **SEE NOTE BELOW
ON VOLTMETER**

I don't think it is necessary to set up an elaborate system to
protect you and your fish from electrical malfunctions. Hopefully it is rare
that a component leaks electricity into the tank. A shock from a fish tank
would not likely be fatal, but if it is strong enough, it will cause
an uncontrollable desire to remove one's arm from the tank as rapidly as
possible. This is where serious injury and damage to the tank / hood etc. could
occur.

If you want to make a shock-proof tank, hook all accessories that could possibly
cause a problem to GFI sockets (Ground Fault Interrupters). Then hook an
electrode from the water to one of the GFI ground terminals. If anything
begins to leak, the corresponding GFI will cut off power.

**A NOTE ON VOLTMETER READING OF TANK POTENTIAL**
When I first tried to measure the voltage of my tank I was surprised to get a
reading of 32 volts. By selectively turning off my equipment I determined
that every electrical piece of equipment near my tank would cause this
potential. It turns out this was because I was using a very high impedance
electronic voltmeter. The tank water acts as an antenna and picks up the 60 Hz
electric field transmitted by nearby appliances. Because the water is so well
insulated, the reading given by a high impedance voltmeter will be
extraordinarily high. The current that the tank can supply at this voltage is
EXTREMELY small. I then connected a 100k Ohm resistor between the tank and the
ground -- the voltage dropped very near zero. If the problem was a faulty
appliance, I would expect no change in the voltage reading with the addition of
a resistor that large.

SUMMARY
- If you are worried about both you and your fish being shocked by electrical
aquarium appliances, use GFI sockets and a ground electrode. There are a few
aquarium related products out there that will do this for you if you don't like
wiring.
- If you are just worried about yourself (or can't afford/be bothered with
GFI's) then ground the tank. You will know you have a problem when your fish go
nuts or die.
- If you haven't had a good shock in the last few years and can't be bothered
with this grounding stuff, you can probably get along fine without it. If you
ever get zapped though, don't come running to me!

-- Paul Daleman -P.S. I'm leaving my tank ungrounded for now...

[George]

"Russ J." > wrote in message
. ..
>I am presently NOT getting "zapped". I was more concered about stray voltages
>causing LLE. and jittery clown fish. Now I am not certain what to do. The
>point of installing a ground and having the fish pass between the device( if
>any ) giving off the voltage and the rod - puts it in a precarius position.
>Kinda of like a invisible fence in the tank !
>
> ????

You should read this:

http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/grounding.html

>
>
> --
> Russell Jankowski
>
>
> A.M. SERVICE
> 440-333-4923
>
> "Charles Spitzer" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
>> news:QYT6e.5648$ok4.2374@trndny07...
>>> George wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not the
>>>> right thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of the
>>>> electrical current in the aquarium and eliminate it.
>>>
>>> In my experience, istalling a grounding rod in the aquarium will find and
>>> eliminate the current source almost immediately.
>>>
>>> George Patterson
>>> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
>>> mashed potatoes.
>>
>> yes it will, but it's fixing the symptom and not the problem. the problem
>> will still exist, and when you unplug the grounding rod and stick your hand
>> in, you could get zapped instead.
>>
>>
>
>

[George Patterson]

Charles Spitzer wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:QYT6e.5648$ok4.2374@trndny07...
>
>>George wrote:
>>
>>>I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not the
>>>right thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of the
>>>electrical current in the aquarium and eliminate it.
>>
>>In my experience, istalling a grounding rod in the aquarium will find and
>>eliminate the current source almost immediately.
>
> yes it will, but it's fixing the symptom and not the problem.

How so? If the equipment which is leaking current dies (which it will), you've
fixed the problem. I don't know about you, but when a piece of my equipment
quits working, I replace it. And why remove the grounding rod? I've had one on
my tank for about 15 years.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George Patterson]

George wrote:
>
> The solution to the electrified tank problem is to find out which components
> are the culprits and repair or replace them.

And, as I said, installing a ground rod is an excellent way to do this. The
culprits will promptly quit working.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:NhX6e.12343$Xm3.7113@trndny01...
> Charles Spitzer wrote:
>> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
>> news:QYT6e.5648$ok4.2374@trndny07...
>>
>>>George wrote:
>>>
>>>>I posted a link earlier about grounding rods in aquariums. It is not the
>>>>right thing to do. The right thing to do is to find the source of the
>>>>electrical current in the aquarium and eliminate it.
>>>
>>>In my experience, istalling a grounding rod in the aquarium will find and
>>>eliminate the current source almost immediately.
>>
>> yes it will, but it's fixing the symptom and not the problem.
>
> How so? If the equipment which is leaking current dies (which it will), you've
> fixed the problem. I don't know about you, but when a piece of my equipment
> quits working, I replace it. And why remove the grounding rod? I've had one on
> my tank for about 15 years.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

Because, unless you have your grounding rod connected to a ground fault
interupt, if a pump for instance leaks electricity into the water, you are going
to complete the circuit and electrify your tank. The difference is the same as
when a bird stands on an electrical wire. If he only touches one, he's ok. But
if he touches it while gorunded, he's toast. Take a multimeter and measure the
voltage between your tank and a ground (say the ground on an outlet receptacle).
If you get a voltage reading, then something is leaking voltage. If not, there
is then nothing is leaking. At any rate, the thing to do is to connect any
grounding rod to a ground fault interupt. That way, if a component fails, the
ground fault will trip, cutting off the power, and let you know that there is a
problem so you don't jolt fish or yourself.

[George]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:zkX6e.12344$Xm3.4997@trndny01...
> George wrote:
>>
>> The solution to the electrified tank problem is to find out which components
>> are the culprits and repair or replace them.
>
> And, as I said, installing a ground rod is an excellent way to do this. The
> culprits will promptly quit working.
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

And if that cultprit is leaking significant voltage (say, more than 30 volts),
when you ground the tank, it may cause the culprit to quit, and it may also
shock the hell out of the animals in the tank. It could also blow a circuit
breaker in your house if it draws significant amperage. If you are going to
ground the tank, use a ground fault interupt in conjunction with the grounding
probe. It is the only safe way to do it. If the tank is not grounded and a
component is leaking electricity, it hurts nothing since there isn't a completed
circuit, unless of course you are grounded and you stick your hand into the
tank. :-)

[CapFusion]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:zkX6e.12344$Xm3.4997@trndny01...
> George wrote:
>>
>> The solution to the electrified tank problem is to find out which
>> components
>> are the culprits and repair or replace them.
>
> And, as I said, installing a ground rod is an excellent way to do this.
> The culprits will promptly quit working.
>

George Patterson, George is correct. You are just masking / bandaid the
problem and not really fixing the source of the problem. Check which device
is causing it and your source of the problem should be resolved. Grounding
rod is just temperary measure while you are looking for the source to be
fix.

CapFusion,...

[George]

"CapFusion" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:zkX6e.12344$Xm3.4997@trndny01...
>> George wrote:
>>>
>>> The solution to the electrified tank problem is to find out which components
>>> are the culprits and repair or replace them.
>>
>> And, as I said, installing a ground rod is an excellent way to do this. The
>> culprits will promptly quit working.
>>
>
> George Patterson, George is correct. You are just masking / bandaid the
> problem and not really fixing the source of the problem. Check which device is
> causing it and your source of the problem should be resolved. Grounding rod is
> just temperary measure while you are looking for the source to be fix.
>
> CapFusion,...

As an experiment, I checked out my 55-gallon tank to see if any pumps were
leaking voltage. I stuck the red probe of my multimeter into the water, and
stuck the black probe into the ground in my wall outlet. It registered 7 volts.
I turned off the main pump in my sump, and nothing happened. Then I turned off
the pump to my skilter filter, and the voltage dropped to 6 volts. Then I
turned off the pump to my protein skimmer, and the vfoltage dropped to 5 volts.
Lastly, I turned off my undergravel pump (which I only use for water circulation
in the tank). The voltage dropped to 0. So my undergravel pump (which is my
oldest pump) is leaking 5 volts into the water. Of course, since I don't have
the tank grounded, the fish and other aquatic life don't know the difference.
At that voltage there is very little magnetic induction going on that would
irritate them.

[George Patterson]

CapFusion wrote:
>
> George Patterson, George is correct.

Ok, I give.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Mark C.]

You should read this:

http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/grounding.html



I see the date on those letters is '92. Got any more recent research on that
theory, George?

--
Mark
--
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who once said, "I drank
what?".

[George]

"Mark C." > wrote in message
...
> You should read this:
>
> http://www.thekrib.com/Marine/grounding.html
>
>
>
> I see the date on those letters is '92. Got any more recent research on that
> theory, George?

I've already posted this link. I agree with the contents of that link
wholeheartedly, with one added "but". Although a leaky pump adds voltage to a
tank when the tank is grounded, and doesn't when it isn't, the leaky pump could
cause induction to occur, which may cause discomfort (but not injury)for most
fish. I'm not an electricl engineer, but that is my understanding of what can
occur. I know that linemen use induction to protect themselves when working
around high voltage power lines, but they also say that it can be uncomfortable.
The upshot of all of this is to test for voltage as described at the link, and
the tank is found to be live, eliminate the offending culprit right away.

[unclenorm]

Tut tut George P.,
I t might also eliminate you, listen to
George he is very right, fitting grounding rods to aquariums is a very
dangerous practice, if you don't value your own health think of all
your tank inhabitants, without a ground rod they are quite safe with
one they are potentialy dead. A stray currant detector is a far far
better proposition.
regards,
unclenorm.

[George]

"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tut tut George P.,
> I t might also eliminate you, listen to
> George he is very right, fitting grounding rods to aquariums is a very
> dangerous practice, if you don't value your own health think of all
> your tank inhabitants, without a ground rod they are quite safe with
> one they are potentialy dead. A stray currant detector is a far far
> better proposition.
> regards,
> unclenorm.

All aquarium appliances should be plugged into a ground fault interupt anyway.
It is the safest way to go.

[Rich R]

You have to be kidding me, guys I know you are smart guys but listen to your
self's grounding rods are Dangerous!!
I'm not going to spark a fight with you, But your wrong.
If you ever break a glass heater and touch the water you may change your
mind,,,If you have one after doing so

The fish collecting industry uses voltage to collect fish,
The following paragraph is from a reference, "Fisheries Techniques"
The fish will have a very very low resistance, a lot lower than
the
water.

from page 150 of "Fisheries Techniques"...
"Because a fish has resistance, a given current density at one end
will result in a lowered density at the other, producing a voltage
gradient in the fish. Voltage gradients of 0.1 to 1.0 volts/cm are
most effective for stunning fish; these gradients can be maintained in
freshwaters of normal conductivity (100-500 micromhos/cm) by adjusting
circuit voltage to produce a current of 3-6 amperes. At high
conductivities, water becomes less resistive than fish and the current
tends to flow around them, resulting in little or no voltage effect;
this is the reason that electrofishing is not used in brackish or salt
water. At low conductivities (less than 100 micromhos/cm), the water
is more resistant than fish, but the electrical field is limited to
the immediate area of trhe electrode. When this occurs,a fish may not
be affected until it touches the electrode--then it suddenly receives
a high voltage gradient and dies".

It goes on to say distilled water has a conductivity of 0.5-4.0
micromhos/cm, most freshwater bodies are between 50-1,500 micromhos/cm
and sal****er is 500 times more conductive than freshwater.

From this discussion, it appears some aquaria have water more
conductive than the fish, while others are not, depending on the
mineral content.

Most of the Known facts point to the chemical makeup of the fish makes them
a potential
Its up for debate Not a fight about it!!!!

--


www.reeftanksonline.com
www.nydiver.com
ONLINE meeting rooms



"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Tut tut George P.,
> I t might also eliminate you, listen to
> George he is very right, fitting grounding rods to aquariums is a very
> dangerous practice, if you don't value your own health think of all
> your tank inhabitants, without a ground rod they are quite safe with
> one they are potentialy dead. A stray currant detector is a far far
> better proposition.
> regards,
> unclenorm.
>

[Rich R]

The EMF from various appliances generate eddy
currents in the fish themselves, causing distress. The lateral line
is a extremely sensitve organ and anything that distrubs it can stress
the fish and cause secondary problems. The EMF would generate a certain
potential in the fish due to its specific internal electrolite mix and
generate a different potential in the water. The difference between
the water potential and the internal potential is what causes the problem.
--


www.reeftanksonline.com
www.nydiver.com
ONLINE meeting rooms



"Rich R" > wrote in message
...
> You have to be kidding me, guys I know you are smart guys but listen to
> your self's grounding rods are Dangerous!!
> I'm not going to spark a fight with you, But your wrong.
> If you ever break a glass heater and touch the water you may change your
> mind,,,If you have one after doing so
>
> The fish collecting industry uses voltage to collect fish,
> The following paragraph is from a reference, "Fisheries Techniques"
> The fish will have a very very low resistance, a lot lower than
> the
> water.
>
> from page 150 of "Fisheries Techniques"...
> "Because a fish has resistance, a given current density at one end
> will result in a lowered density at the other, producing a voltage
> gradient in the fish. Voltage gradients of 0.1 to 1.0 volts/cm are
> most effective for stunning fish; these gradients can be maintained in
> freshwaters of normal conductivity (100-500 micromhos/cm) by adjusting
> circuit voltage to produce a current of 3-6 amperes. At high
> conductivities, water becomes less resistive than fish and the current
> tends to flow around them, resulting in little or no voltage effect;
> this is the reason that electrofishing is not used in brackish or salt
> water. At low conductivities (less than 100 micromhos/cm), the water
> is more resistant than fish, but the electrical field is limited to
> the immediate area of trhe electrode. When this occurs,a fish may not
> be affected until it touches the electrode--then it suddenly receives
> a high voltage gradient and dies".
>
> It goes on to say distilled water has a conductivity of 0.5-4.0
> micromhos/cm, most freshwater bodies are between 50-1,500 micromhos/cm
> and sal****er is 500 times more conductive than freshwater.
>
> From this discussion, it appears some aquaria have water more
> conductive than the fish, while others are not, depending on the
> mineral content.
>
> Most of the Known facts point to the chemical makeup of the fish makes
> them a potential
> Its up for debate Not a fight about it!!!!
>
> --
>
>
> www.reeftanksonline.com
> www.nydiver.com
> ONLINE meeting rooms
>
>
>
> "unclenorm" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Tut tut George P.,
>> I t might also eliminate you, listen to
>> George he is very right, fitting grounding rods to aquariums is a very
>> dangerous practice, if you don't value your own health think of all
>> your tank inhabitants, without a ground rod they are quite safe with
>> one they are potentialy dead. A stray currant detector is a far far
>> better proposition.
>> regards,
>> unclenorm.
>>
>
>
>
>

[George]

"Rich R" > wrote in message ...
> You have to be kidding me, guys I know you are smart guys but listen to your
> self's grounding rods are Dangerous!!
> I'm not going to spark a fight with you, But your wrong.
> If you ever break a glass heater and touch the water you may change your
> mind,,,If you have one after doing so

Every glass heater that I own is not grounded, so I don't see the point of your
argument.

> The fish collecting industry uses voltage to collect fish,
> The following paragraph is from a reference, "Fisheries Techniques"
> The fish will have a very very low resistance, a lot lower than the
> water.
>
> from page 150 of "Fisheries Techniques"...
> "Because a fish has resistance, a given current density at one end
> will result in a lowered density at the other, producing a voltage
> gradient in the fish. Voltage gradients of 0.1 to 1.0 volts/cm are
> most effective for stunning fish; these gradients can be maintained in
> freshwaters of normal conductivity (100-500 micromhos/cm) by adjusting
> circuit voltage to produce a current of 3-6 amperes.

This is the clue: "circuit". If the circuit is closed (i.e., grounded), you
are going to register a voltage because there will be a completed circuit and an
electrical current. If, on the other hand, the circuit is open (i.e., not
grounded), you are not going to register any voltage at all. If fish are
swimming in water that is not grounded, there is no current or voltage that can
be registered, and they aren't going to feel anything because there is no
current running through the water (you cannot charge a car battery, for
instance, or use one unless both the positive electrode and negative electrode
are connected and the circuit completed). If, on the other hand, a submerged
pump is leaking past its seal, and you then ground the water in the tank, you
are certainly going to have a "closed" circuit, and voltage will travel through
the water to the ground, charge the aquarium and anything in it including the
fish. This is why birds can perch unaffected on power lines - they aren't
grounded. If however, a bird was to flap its wings while standing on one wire,
and was large enough to touch the other wire with its flapping wings, you're
going to be having fried bird for dinner. The moral of this story is: Use
ground fault interupts on all of your aquarium appliances to avoid electrifying
the tank, and so that you will know immediately if there is an appliance that is
malfunctioning.

~George~

[George]

"Rich R" > wrote in message ...
> The EMF from various appliances generate eddy
> currents in the fish themselves, causing distress. The lateral line
> is a extremely sensitve organ and anything that distrubs it can stress
> the fish and cause secondary problems. The EMF would generate a certain
> potential in the fish due to its specific internal electrolite mix and
> generate a different potential in the water. The difference between
> the water potential and the internal potential is what causes the problem.
> --

Electric fields are created by differences in voltage: the higher the voltage,
the stronger will be the resultant field. Magnetic fields are created when
electric current flows: the greater the current, the stronger the magnetic
field. An electric field will exist even when there is no current flowing. If
current does flow, the strength of the magnetic field will vary with power
consumption but the electric field strength will be constant. The key is not in
grounding the tank, but attaching all the appliances to a ground fault interupt,
and in eliminating the offending aplliance.

[Rich R]

I understand how VOLTAGE is produced, I'm talking about Electrical devices
generate electro-magnetic fields (EMF)

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/s_brown.html
hay its a healthily discussion and I do respect you I just take another side
on this matter

--
www.nydiver.com
ONLINE meeting rooms



"George" > wrote in message
news:P9bce.31527$NU4.30726@attbi_s22...
>
> "Rich R" > wrote in message
> ...
>> You have to be kidding me, guys I know you are smart guys but listen to
>> your self's grounding rods are Dangerous!!
>> I'm not going to spark a fight with you, But your wrong.
>> If you ever break a glass heater and touch the water you may change your
>> mind,,,If you have one after doing so
>
> Every glass heater that I own is not grounded, so I don't see the point of
> your argument.
>
>> The fish collecting industry uses voltage to collect fish,
>> The following paragraph is from a reference, "Fisheries Techniques"
>> The fish will have a very very low resistance, a lot lower than
>> the
>> water.
>>
>> from page 150 of "Fisheries Techniques"...
>> "Because a fish has resistance, a given current density at one end
>> will result in a lowered density at the other, producing a voltage
>> gradient in the fish. Voltage gradients of 0.1 to 1.0 volts/cm are
>> most effective for stunning fish; these gradients can be maintained
>> in
>> freshwaters of normal conductivity (100-500 micromhos/cm) by
>> adjusting
>> circuit voltage to produce a current of 3-6 amperes.
>
> This is the clue: "circuit". If the circuit is closed (i.e., grounded),
> you are going to register a voltage because there will be a completed
> circuit and an electrical current. If, on the other hand, the circuit is
> open (i.e., not grounded), you are not going to register any voltage at
> all. If fish are swimming in water that is not grounded, there is no
> current or voltage that can be registered, and they aren't going to feel
> anything because there is no current running through the water (you cannot
> charge a car battery, for instance, or use one unless both the positive
> electrode and negative electrode are connected and the circuit completed).
> If, on the other hand, a submerged pump is leaking past its seal, and you
> then ground the water in the tank, you are certainly going to have a
> "closed" circuit, and voltage will travel through the water to the ground,
> charge the aquarium and anything in it including the fish. This is why
> birds can perch unaffected on power lines - they aren't grounded. If
> however, a bird was to flap its wings while standing on one wire, and was
> large enough to touch the other wire with its flapping wings, you're going
> to be having fried bird for dinner. The moral of this story is: Use
> ground fault interupts on all of your aquarium appliances to avoid
> electrifying the tank, and so that you will know immediately if there is
> an appliance that is malfunctioning.
>
> ~George~
>
>

[George]

"Rich R" > wrote in message
...
>I understand how VOLTAGE is produced, I'm talking about Electrical devices
>generate electro-magnetic fields (EMF)
>
> http://www.reefs.org/library/article/s_brown.html
> hay its a healthily discussion and I do respect you I just take another side
> on this matter
>
> --
> www.nydiver.com
> ONLINE meeting rooms

Yes, electrical devices do generate electromagnetic fields. Pumps do it, so do
heaters. So what? None of my fish have ever shown any indication that it has
any adverse effect on them (2 maroon clown fish - one is 14 years old in the
same aquarium with the same pumps, and a yellow tang). Electrifying a tank by
grounding it when it has a leaky pump does have an adeverse effect on anything
in the tank, as it will you if you stick you hand in it when barefooted. Which
is why the golden rule is to use ground fault interupts on all of your aquatic
appliances.

>
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:P9bce.31527$NU4.30726@attbi_s22...
>>
>> "Rich R" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> You have to be kidding me, guys I know you are smart guys but listen to your
>>> self's grounding rods are Dangerous!!
>>> I'm not going to spark a fight with you, But your wrong.
>>> If you ever break a glass heater and touch the water you may change your
>>> mind,,,If you have one after doing so
>>
>> Every glass heater that I own is not grounded, so I don't see the point of
>> your argument.
>>
>>> The fish collecting industry uses voltage to collect fish,
>>> The following paragraph is from a reference, "Fisheries Techniques"
>>> The fish will have a very very low resistance, a lot lower than
>>> the
>>> water.
>>>
>>> from page 150 of "Fisheries Techniques"...
>>> "Because a fish has resistance, a given current density at one end
>>> will result in a lowered density at the other, producing a voltage
>>> gradient in the fish. Voltage gradients of 0.1 to 1.0 volts/cm are
>>> most effective for stunning fish; these gradients can be maintained in
>>> freshwaters of normal conductivity (100-500 micromhos/cm) by adjusting
>>> circuit voltage to produce a current of 3-6 amperes.
>>
>> This is the clue: "circuit". If the circuit is closed (i.e., grounded), you
>> are going to register a voltage because there will be a completed circuit and
>> an electrical current. If, on the other hand, the circuit is open (i.e., not
>> grounded), you are not going to register any voltage at all. If fish are
>> swimming in water that is not grounded, there is no current or voltage that
>> can be registered, and they aren't going to feel anything because there is no
>> current running through the water (you cannot charge a car battery, for
>> instance, or use one unless both the positive electrode and negative
>> electrode are connected and the circuit completed). If, on the other hand, a
>> submerged pump is leaking past its seal, and you then ground the water in the
>> tank, you are certainly going to have a "closed" circuit, and voltage will
>> travel through the water to the ground, charge the aquarium and anything in
>> it including the fish. This is why birds can perch unaffected on power
>> lines - they aren't grounded. If however, a bird was to flap its wings while
>> standing on one wire, and was large enough to touch the other wire with its
>> flapping wings, you're going to be having fried bird for dinner. The moral
>> of this story is: Use ground fault interupts on all of your aquarium
>> appliances to avoid electrifying the tank, and so that you will know
>> immediately if there is an appliance that is malfunctioning.
>>
>> ~George~
>>
>>
>
>
>

[rich]

you just don t get it and its going around and around, its like noise in
electronics. And yes it does seem to affect my tangs. I wont respond
anymore this is boring we both think we are right and I don t want to
get heated,,,sorry it went on so long
--


www.reeftanksonline.com
www.nydiver.com

[rich]

sorry I forgot ,do you ground your pool. God I hope so......
--


www.reeftanksonline.com
www.nydiver.com

[George]

"rich" > wrote in message ...
> you just don t get it and its going around and around, its like noise in
> electronics. And yes it does seem to affect my tangs. I wont respond anymore
> this is boring we both think we are right and I don t want to get
> heated,,,sorry it went on so long
> --
>
>
> www.reeftanksonline.com
> www.nydiver.com

Rich, there is no reason to get upset about this. I'm not the enemy here. I'm
just trying to help. Just a couple of more question though. Humour me. How do
you know for certain that it is an electrical problem that is affecting your
tang? Have you isolated the animal from the tank to see if his behavior
changes? Have you checked the tank to see if there is any voltage being applied
to it from pumps, heaters, etc? Do you know for certain that it isn't sick?

[George]

"rich" > wrote in message
...
> sorry I forgot ,do you ground your pool. God I hope so......
> --
>
>
> www.reeftanksonline.com
> www.nydiver.com

I don't have a pool. I do have a large garden pond fuul of lots of fish, and it
is on a ground fault interupt. If I had a pool, it would also be on a ground
fault interupt.

[rich]

BUT NO GROUND?
--


www.reeftanksonline.com
www.nydiver.com

[George]

"rich" > wrote in message
...
> BUT NO GROUND?
> --
>
>
> www.reeftanksonline.com
> www.nydiver.com
>

If you want the person to whom this question is directed to answer, it helps to
know how to post a properly formatted respoonse.