prolapsed betta

[lgb]

I posted the other day about a betta that appeared to have stuck poop.
It seems that isn't the case, he has a prolapsed intestine. In other
words, there's about .5" to .75" of gut hanging out. Glad I didn't try
to pull it off.

So what do I do? I did find one web article that said it might go back
in by itself, but with that amount I suspect the odds are slim. I
withheld food for 2 days and there was no change.

It doesn't appear to be bothering him much, other than a little less
energy. But I can't imagine it won't get torn and/or infected over
time. Or nipped by another fish.

Any one else here had this problem? If it's a lost cause I should go
ahead and kill him before he gets infected and suffers. If there's a
cure I'd like to know it.

I know there's some betta gurus on this group. Please respond. Please.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Tom Randy]

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:37:53 -0700, lgb wrote:

> I posted the other day about a betta that appeared to have stuck poop. It
> seems that isn't the case, he has a prolapsed intestine. In other words,
> there's about .5" to .75" of gut hanging out. Glad I didn't try to pull
> it off.
>
> So what do I do? I did find one web article that said it might go back in
> by itself, but with that amount I suspect the odds are slim. I withheld
> food for 2 days and there was no change.
>
> It doesn't appear to be bothering him much, other than a little less
> energy. But I can't imagine it won't get torn and/or infected over time.
> Or nipped by another fish.
>
> Any one else here had this problem? If it's a lost cause I should go
> ahead and kill him before he gets infected and suffers. If there's a cure
> I'd like to know it.

Also known as "wet tail" in the hamster world.
I'd put him down. It's GOT to suck for the fish.

[Elaine T]

lgb wrote:
> I posted the other day about a betta that appeared to have stuck poop.
> It seems that isn't the case, he has a prolapsed intestine. In other
> words, there's about .5" to .75" of gut hanging out. Glad I didn't try
> to pull it off.
>
> So what do I do? I did find one web article that said it might go back
> in by itself, but with that amount I suspect the odds are slim. I
> withheld food for 2 days and there was no change.
>
> It doesn't appear to be bothering him much, other than a little less
> energy. But I can't imagine it won't get torn and/or infected over
> time. Or nipped by another fish.
>
> Any one else here had this problem? If it's a lost cause I should go
> ahead and kill him before he gets infected and suffers. If there's a
> cure I'd like to know it.
>
> I know there's some betta gurus on this group. Please respond. Please.
>
Are you sure it isn't tiny reddish worms? There's a treatable disease
where worms hang out of the fishes anus.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Tom Randy" > wrote in message
. ..
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:37:53 -0700, lgb wrote:
>
>> I posted the other day about a betta that appeared to have stuck poop.
>> It
>> seems that isn't the case, he has a prolapsed intestine. In other
>> words,
>> there's about .5" to .75" of gut hanging out. Glad I didn't try to
>> pull
>> it off.
>>
>> So what do I do? I did find one web article that said it might go
>> back in
>> by itself, but with that amount I suspect the odds are slim. I
>> withheld
>> food for 2 days and there was no change.
>>
>> It doesn't appear to be bothering him much, other than a little less
>> energy. But I can't imagine it won't get torn and/or infected over
>> time.
>> Or nipped by another fish.
>>
>> Any one else here had this problem? If it's a lost cause I should go
>> ahead and kill him before he gets infected and suffers. If there's a
>> cure
>> I'd like to know it.
>
> Also known as "wet tail" in the hamster world.
> I'd put him down. It's GOT to suck for the fish.


Hamsters are not close enough to fish for a proper comparison. From
personal observation of fish in various states of .... 'disorganized
organs'.... I rather suspect that he is completely oblivious to it, jmo.
Personally I would let him be and see if it resolves itself, perhaps even
by the intervention of another fish.. hmmm haggis ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Lisa]

Yeah - when I heard the original post, I thought "Sounds a lot more
like a parasitic infection than stuck poop." (Or a prolapsed
intentine, FWIW).

At the time, I judged that I was too much of a newbie to venture an
opinion! But, I AM a newbie who reads a lot, <g>. So, I'll venture
one now.

- Lisa

[MarAzul]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Randy" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:37:53 -0700, lgb wrote:
>>
>>> I posted the other day about a betta that appeared to have stuck poop.
>>> It
>>> seems that isn't the case, he has a prolapsed intestine. In other
>>> words,
>>> there's about .5" to .75" of gut hanging out. Glad I didn't try to pull
>>> it off.
>>>
>>> So what do I do? I did find one web article that said it might go back
>>> in
>>> by itself, but with that amount I suspect the odds are slim. I withheld
>>> food for 2 days and there was no change.
>>>
>>> It doesn't appear to be bothering him much, other than a little less
>>> energy. But I can't imagine it won't get torn and/or infected over
>>> time.
>>> Or nipped by another fish.
>>>
>>> Any one else here had this problem? If it's a lost cause I should go
>>> ahead and kill him before he gets infected and suffers. If there's a
>>> cure
>>> I'd like to know it.
>>
>> Also known as "wet tail" in the hamster world.
>> I'd put him down. It's GOT to suck for the fish.
>
>
> Hamsters are not close enough to fish for a proper comparison. From
> personal observation of fish in various states of .... 'disorganized
> organs'.... I rather suspect that he is completely oblivious to it, jmo.
> Personally I would let him be and see if it resolves itself, perhaps even
> by the intervention of another fish.. hmmm haggis ;~).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
But if it is a prolapsed rectum, then you're running the risk of severe
infection, loss of tissue and hemorrhaging. The blood supply can be cut off
to the part of the rectum that is outside the body, causing the tissue to
become necrotic. Left untreated, infection can and usually does set in
within a short period of time. If another fish were to remove the section of
rectum, then the isolation of the intestinal tract is comprimised and toxins
can enter the abdominal cavity, leading to infection and possibly internal
bleeding. Also, bear in mind that it's not normal or healthy for ANY
internal organ to hang out of the body and quite often it's very painful.

Mar
---------
Vet Tech student

[doorzy]

What a sad article what with me facing a life threatening existance
it saddened my heart to hear of another creature in pain or facing
death........
Hmmmmmmmm hope it can repair itself and is a parasitical problem that
can be fixed.....

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> From
> personal observation of fish in various states of .... 'disorganized
> organs'.... I rather suspect that he is completely oblivious to it, jmo.
>
That does seem to be the case. And it doesn't appear inflamed, nor does
he appear constipated.

I guess I'll adopt the "watchful waiting" position. Sort of like
prostate cancer :-).

Thanks for the advice. Your advice has turned out well in the past, so
I'm more inclined to take it than some from others.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[NetMax]

"MarAzul" > wrote in message
news:7O%8e.35541$A31.18222@fed1read03...
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Tom Randy" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:37:53 -0700, lgb wrote:
>>>
>>>> I posted the other day about a betta that appeared to have stuck
>>>> poop. It
>>>> seems that isn't the case, he has a prolapsed intestine. In other
>>>> words,
>>>> there's about .5" to .75" of gut hanging out. Glad I didn't try to
>>>> pull
>>>> it off.
>>>>
>>>> So what do I do? I did find one web article that said it might go
>>>> back in
>>>> by itself, but with that amount I suspect the odds are slim. I
>>>> withheld
>>>> food for 2 days and there was no change.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't appear to be bothering him much, other than a little less
>>>> energy. But I can't imagine it won't get torn and/or infected over
>>>> time.
>>>> Or nipped by another fish.
>>>>
>>>> Any one else here had this problem? If it's a lost cause I should
>>>> go
>>>> ahead and kill him before he gets infected and suffers. If there's
>>>> a cure
>>>> I'd like to know it.
>>>
>>> Also known as "wet tail" in the hamster world.
>>> I'd put him down. It's GOT to suck for the fish.
>>
>>
>> Hamsters are not close enough to fish for a proper comparison. From
>> personal observation of fish in various states of .... 'disorganized
>> organs'.... I rather suspect that he is completely oblivious to it,
>> jmo. Personally I would let him be and see if it resolves itself,
>> perhaps even by the intervention of another fish.. hmmm haggis ;~).
>> --
>> www.NetMax.tk
>>
> But if it is a prolapsed rectum, then you're running the risk of severe
> infection, loss of tissue and hemorrhaging. The blood supply can be cut
> off to the part of the rectum that is outside the body, causing the
> tissue to become necrotic. Left untreated, infection can and usually
> does set in within a short period of time. If another fish were to
> remove the section of rectum, then the isolation of the intestinal
> tract is comprimised and toxins can enter the abdominal cavity, leading
> to infection and possibly internal bleeding. Also, bear in mind that
> it's not normal or healthy for ANY internal organ to hang out of the
> body and quite often it's very painful.
>
> Mar
> ---------
> Vet Tech student



Warning, the following may be disturbing and only suitable for mature
readers.

I'm only drawing on years of observation. Consider this: Air (the
medium between most mammals) is as good at blocking air-borne diseases as
water (the medium between fish) is at *communicating* diseases. Fish are
in constant contact with each other (perhaps the equivalent of you French
kissing everyone you see daily ;~), so fish would have a considerably
more active immune system to stay alive (or they would all die from
anything which would kill *any* of them). This is why I don't think the
probability and progression of infections as described would be
comparable with fish.

On a more practical point, have you never seen fish with missing chunks?
Anyone who has kept packs of Piranha will be familiar with this. If the
water is poor, you might have to deal with fungus, but otherwise, the
wounds more often than not simply close up. After many years, the
indents are still discernable (with a slight difference in color), but
they don't die from wounds which would easily kill any mammal. Their
circulatory system is not comparable. Their nervous system is not
comparable. Their immune system is not comparable.

Along the same lines (but getting slightly off-topic), I'm personally not
a fan of using live fish as food (something I think should be done
minimally and only as required), but there was an occasion where I was a
spectator to some feeder goldfish being fed to a couple of piranhas.
After a flurry of activity, the piranhas thought they were finished, but
one of them had only gotten half his goldfish. The half he missed (the
head) sank down to the bottom of the tank hidden by some plant leaves.
That head (with gills intact) sat at the bottom breathing, watching, and
probably a bit bewildered by the fact that he was no longer swimming
around. About a half hour later, the head was still there, still
breathing, still looking around. If fish food had landed anywhere near
the head, I have no doubt it would have tried to eat it. I didn't get to
see what the life expectancy of a head was, as a piranha discovered this
missing morsel. The point is that over the years, people (especially
those in the trade) get to witness all sorts of 'incidents' where partial
fish live for days, weeks or even for normal lives. I've seen fish with
their organs partially ripped out of their bodies, still sparing for
mating rights oblivious to their predicament. One example (which had a
large hole in the intestine) behaved completely normally, and only died
after a month because everything he ate went right through him
(literally).

I apologise for my descriptive method of making the point that fish are
just not that comparable (imho).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[winddancir]

I had a guppie that had a prolapsed whatever, and she lived happily in the tank. None of the other guppies tried to do anything. She even had a litter of fry. (by accident, I had tried to separate the males!) She eventually died of a fungus, which also killed 2 other fish.
As long as the fish is swimming normal, and others aren't bugging him/her, don't do anything. Just take care of your pet as normal. And try not to get too grossed out by the funny-looking bit hanging from your fish!

[Gill Passman]

"NetMax" > wrote in message
.. .
> "MarAzul" > wrote in message
> news:7O%8e.35541$A31.18222@fed1read03...
> > "NetMax" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Tom Randy" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:37:53 -0700, lgb wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I posted the other day about a betta that appeared to have stuck
> >>>> poop. It
> >>>> seems that isn't the case, he has a prolapsed intestine. In other
> >>>> words,
> >>>> there's about .5" to .75" of gut hanging out. Glad I didn't try to
> >>>> pull
> >>>> it off.
> >>>>
> >>>> So what do I do? I did find one web article that said it might go
> >>>> back in
> >>>> by itself, but with that amount I suspect the odds are slim. I
> >>>> withheld
> >>>> food for 2 days and there was no change.
> >>>>
> >>>> It doesn't appear to be bothering him much, other than a little less
> >>>> energy. But I can't imagine it won't get torn and/or infected over
> >>>> time.
> >>>> Or nipped by another fish.
> >>>>
> >>>> Any one else here had this problem? If it's a lost cause I should
> >>>> go
> >>>> ahead and kill him before he gets infected and suffers. If there's
> >>>> a cure
> >>>> I'd like to know it.
> >>>
> >>> Also known as "wet tail" in the hamster world.
> >>> I'd put him down. It's GOT to suck for the fish.
> >>
> >>
> >> Hamsters are not close enough to fish for a proper comparison. From
> >> personal observation of fish in various states of .... 'disorganized
> >> organs'.... I rather suspect that he is completely oblivious to it,
> >> jmo. Personally I would let him be and see if it resolves itself,
> >> perhaps even by the intervention of another fish.. hmmm haggis ;~).
> >> --
> >> www.NetMax.tk
> >>
> > But if it is a prolapsed rectum, then you're running the risk of severe
> > infection, loss of tissue and hemorrhaging. The blood supply can be cut
> > off to the part of the rectum that is outside the body, causing the
> > tissue to become necrotic. Left untreated, infection can and usually
> > does set in within a short period of time. If another fish were to
> > remove the section of rectum, then the isolation of the intestinal
> > tract is comprimised and toxins can enter the abdominal cavity, leading
> > to infection and possibly internal bleeding. Also, bear in mind that
> > it's not normal or healthy for ANY internal organ to hang out of the
> > body and quite often it's very painful.
> >
> > Mar
> > ---------
> > Vet Tech student
>
>
>
> Warning, the following may be disturbing and only suitable for mature
> readers.
>
> I'm only drawing on years of observation. Consider this: Air (the
> medium between most mammals) is as good at blocking air-borne diseases as
> water (the medium between fish) is at *communicating* diseases. Fish are
> in constant contact with each other (perhaps the equivalent of you French
> kissing everyone you see daily ;~), so fish would have a considerably
> more active immune system to stay alive (or they would all die from
> anything which would kill *any* of them). This is why I don't think the
> probability and progression of infections as described would be
> comparable with fish.
>
> On a more practical point, have you never seen fish with missing chunks?
> Anyone who has kept packs of Piranha will be familiar with this. If the
> water is poor, you might have to deal with fungus, but otherwise, the
> wounds more often than not simply close up. After many years, the
> indents are still discernable (with a slight difference in color), but
> they don't die from wounds which would easily kill any mammal. Their
> circulatory system is not comparable. Their nervous system is not
> comparable. Their immune system is not comparable.
>
> Along the same lines (but getting slightly off-topic), I'm personally not
> a fan of using live fish as food (something I think should be done
> minimally and only as required), but there was an occasion where I was a
> spectator to some feeder goldfish being fed to a couple of piranhas.
> After a flurry of activity, the piranhas thought they were finished, but
> one of them had only gotten half his goldfish. The half he missed (the
> head) sank down to the bottom of the tank hidden by some plant leaves.
> That head (with gills intact) sat at the bottom breathing, watching, and
> probably a bit bewildered by the fact that he was no longer swimming
> around. About a half hour later, the head was still there, still
> breathing, still looking around. If fish food had landed anywhere near
> the head, I have no doubt it would have tried to eat it. I didn't get to
> see what the life expectancy of a head was, as a piranha discovered this
> missing morsel. The point is that over the years, people (especially
> those in the trade) get to witness all sorts of 'incidents' where partial
> fish live for days, weeks or even for normal lives. I've seen fish with
> their organs partially ripped out of their bodies, still sparing for
> mating rights oblivious to their predicament. One example (which had a
> large hole in the intestine) behaved completely normally, and only died
> after a month because everything he ate went right through him
> (literally).
>
> I apologise for my descriptive method of making the point that fish are
> just not that comparable (imho).
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>
>
I had to make sure that I had eaten and my food had settled before
revisiting this....

This is a very good point and one that I have been mulling over for the last
few hours.....I came up with some stuff on this but I wouldn't say that it
necessarily reflects my opinions - it is just me thinking outloud....

Firstly, anglers justify their hobby by saying that fish feel no pain when
hooked - I don't know if this is true or not....certainly there are
instances of the same fish being caught over and over again with no ill
effect - THAT WE KNOW OF

Secondly, I once had a goldfish that had it's entire tail plus a bit more
bitten off by it's companions....he sort of swam around the tank with no
sign of distress for a good couple of years.

Now if we start looking at mammals - prolapses (particularily in the female
of the species) are not as uncommon as we would like to believe....yet (and
someone is very welcome to correct me if I am wrong) I'm not aware that the
prolapse in itself is that painful - it would be any subsequent infections
that would be the problem. Now when it comes to fish you can't just "shove
it back in" under general anaesthetic so I'm not really sure what you do.

The next thing that mulled around my head is in fact the stress fish get put
through when caught in a net for food or come to that animals when killed
for meat. Now I know that there are vegetarians out there or people who
avoid certain foods but for those who are not does this become a question?
Now where I am going here with this is that we see our fish as pets rather
than food (and I eat meat and fish)....in the same way we would not want any
mammal we own to go through pain we don't want to see our fish doing the
same. But, very often we attribute our own sense of pain to what we see our
pets going through....now don't get me wrong here - I've had to have pets
"put down" and it is very traumatic but they were mammals with what is
usually assumed to have a similar pain suffering as us but without
necessarily the understanding (dog and cat who I still miss very
much)...This is why I believe that people euthanise their fish - I did it
once with a goldfish and hated it.

Additionally some of us maybe believe that all living creatures can feel
pain - I'm pretty sure that is true but maybe it is down to our ability to
comprehend our situation as well and the fact that we empathise with them
and think how we would feel under similar situations.

The problem with fish is that they cannot express their pain. They can be
ill and listless but we do not actually know what level of pain they are
experiencing - they can't talk to us. We can only be sensitive to changes in
their behaviour and make our best judgements....most mammals have a way of
expressing themselves even if not speaking....

Sorry for the ramble....I don't really know what I think about all of this
but these are just the thoughts that I had

[Tom Randy]

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:27:08 +0100, Gill Passman wrote:

>
> The problem with fish is that they cannot express their pain.



Or maybe they can but WE just don't know how to recognise it yet...



> They can be
> ill and listless but we do not actually know what level of pain they are
> experiencing - they can't talk to us. We can only be sensitive to changes
> in their behaviour and make our best judgements....most mammals have a way
> of expressing themselves even if not speaking....


Agreed. The level of pain is moot IMHO, ANY pain sucks, as humans
already know this all too well.


> Sorry for the ramble....I don't really know what I think about all of this
> but these are just the thoughts that I had


No need for the sorry, it's good to get it out!

[lgb]

Well, I'm not sure I believe it, but as of this morning there's no sign
of any guts hanging out! The fish is active and has an appetite. I'll
watch for signs of infection and bloating, but as of now it looks like
he healed himself.

Someone is sure to say that I mis-identified the problem, and I guess
that's possible, but it definitely looked like fish gut and hung out for
about a week. The first day I could even see what looked like **** in
it. Then I stopped feeding and it just looked empty.

So it's wait and see and scratch the old noggin :-).

Thanks to all who responded.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[NetMax]

"lgb" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I'm not sure I believe it, but as of this morning there's no sign
> of any guts hanging out! The fish is active and has an appetite. I'll
> watch for signs of infection and bloating, but as of now it looks like
> he healed himself.
>
> Someone is sure to say that I mis-identified the problem, and I guess
> that's possible, but it definitely looked like fish gut and hung out
> for
> about a week. The first day I could even see what looked like **** in
> it. Then I stopped feeding and it just looked empty.
>
> So it's wait and see and scratch the old noggin :-).
>
> Thanks to all who responded.
>
> --
> Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

Yup :o), occasionally I'm right ;~). Glad it worked out. I would avoid
food pellets for a little while, and stick with softer foods like flake
or frozen/fresh worms (give his abdominal muscles a chance to
re-establish, or whatever it is they need to do).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
>
> Yup :o), occasionally I'm right ;~). Glad it worked out. I would avoid
> food pellets for a little while, and stick with softer foods like flake
> or frozen/fresh worms (give his abdominal muscles a chance to
> re-establish, or whatever it is they need to do).
>
I'm doing that, but I suspect that once he gets used to steak he won't
want to go back to soy :-). I got some blackworms at the LFS and have
enough for some time if I can keep them alive. I'll intersperse with
some frozen bloodworms - those are a lot less trouble.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description