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George
April 19th 05, 02:19 AM
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/rofaq3.htm

- RO Questions -
HI guys, Bryan here.
<Hi, Bryan, JasonC on this end...>1
Have some questions regarding water makeup with RO. <OK.> Read thru F&Q's and
would like some help clarifying some things. OK here goes. Make up water to
add to tank: I take my RO water and aerate and heat for a day to drive off CO2
and increase dissolved O2. (this next order is where I'm a little confused) Then
add my salt mix (Tropic Marine) aerate for a day. Test for salinity, pH, and
ALK, add buffer as needed from the test results. Sound OK? <I would add buffers
at this point, before you add the expensive salt. RO water is depleted of
minerals and will take them up like a sponge, potentially leaving you with a
lower than desired pH. Best to add either baking soda or a commercial buffer
like the Seachem product.>
Evaporation top-off: Take RO water, aerate and heat for a day. This is where
I'm a little unsure. Test the water parameters and buffer as according? <I'm
not sure you need to heat the top off, unless you add it in bulk quantities.>
Set pH and Buffer according to main tank display, right? <Ideally, yes.> Last
thing to help me clarify. In the display tank I'll use ESV 2 part B-Ionic for
ALK and calcium. for top off and make up water I'll probably use SeaChem reef
builder. Do using these 2 different buffers in the water have any adverse
affects? <No. The two part additive is a 'system' so that the buffers compliment
the calcium additive. The buffering in your top-off is really only making sure
the RO doesn't lower the pH of the tank.> Ok last thing for real. IYO who or
what company has the best all around supplements/additives, Mg, Br, Iodide
etc... (just wondering, only using if test for and find a need) <I don't have
any particular preference, but I do try to stay away from Kent and Mark Weiss
products.>
Thanks for your help Bryan.
<Cheers, J -- >

- RO Questions -
Jason, Bryan again, thanks for quick response and great info. <My pleasure.>
You helped clarify things for me about RO water treatment. I was a little
confused about the order of adding buffer and salt. I had read somewhere to
buffer then add salt and then last night read someone from WWM was adding salt
then buffer. Got a little confused. This is probably a silly question. But
when buffering the raw RO water, are you shooting
to buffer to the target range for the main display or just adding enough to add
some minerals to the water so it doesn't act like a sponge when you add the
salt? <The latter, just enough so that the RO doesn't deplete the buffers in the
salt.>
Thanks again Bryan
<Cheers, J -- >

One more RO/DI question
Hi again,
<Hello!>
I was wondering what the best procedure would be for introducing RO/DI water to
an established aquarium. Should I just begin using it for top off and regular
water changes, with no changes to my usual routine; or, should I begin with one
or more, larger than normal water changes?
<Makes little/no difference. Test the pH and make it match your aquarium and of
course...match the temp to that of the aquarium>
As per my last email, I have found 'RO Right' and 'Osmo Prep Marine' (both by
Kent), are these types of additives necessary? recommended?
<Test your pH to see if it matches your tank. If not buffer it up using baking
soda or other buffer fluid/powder. I am not familiar with RO Right but if it's a
buffer agent (and it should state that on the label) then it will work as well
as anything else>
Thanks again,
<You're more than welcome! David Dowless>
Adam

RO/DI Questions
Hi guys,
I am a few days from purchasing the Typhoon 3 RO/DI from
http://www.airwaterice.com/Typhoon%20lll.htm, if you know anything about this
model (positive or negative), I would appreciate your input.
<I have no first hand experience nor know anyone with this brand.>
I've read that after processing the water through the RO/DI you have to use some
sort of supplement to replenish certain essentials that are removed by the RO/DI
process.
<Correct. Best to read through the articles and FAQ files on treating RO or DI
water. My protocol (briefly) is to aerate, heat, mix salt, test pH, alkalinity,
and calcium, adjust with additives, and use.>
Can you please point me to a vendor where I can find these additives?
<Just about any good buffer will work.>
Also, any recommendations on a brand name for the additive is appreciated.
<I use Seachem's Marine Buffer and Reef Builder.>
Thanks, Adam
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Buffering Top Off Water
I buffer my top off water after aerating for a day. If I test for KH/Alkalinity,
what should my results be before I use the top off water?
<Ugh, what?>
Should I be getting these results immediately after adding the buffer?
<I would wait until the next day. You are looking for trends here, not immediate
changes.>
I don't want to use too much. I am using Seachem Reef Builder.
<I would add the same amount every other day, testing on the odd days for one
week. Then look back at your records and note the trend. You will then know if
you must adjust up or down. Repeat this procedure for a few weeks until you get
a feel for your tank's needs. Then just double check every couple of months as
things grow, you add new corals, etc. your tank's demands will change.>
Thanks
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

RO/DI Use
I am currently resetting up my 125 gallon tank. I am going to be setting it up
as a FOWLR tank. I have a 125 main tank, 55 gallon sump tank, and a 38 High
refugium sharing the same sump. I am looking to do this right this time from the
start. I have never used RO/DI before and would like to take the plunge.
<I highly recommend all marine tanks use purified water. You will save time and
money over tap water by not having to battle nuisance algae problems.>
The tap water in my area is hard and worked for my cichlids, but I don't trust
it for a reef or salt setup. My confusion comes when it comes to adding the RO
water. I have seen on the FAQ's two opinions. One saying its ok to plumb the RO
directly into the tank for auto top offs and other opinions saying its not the
best thing to do.
<They are both right. I have seen people use their RO water straight out of it
for automatic top offs, but it is not the best option. Taking RO water, storing
it for a day, aerating it, and perhaps using it with Kalkwasser is the best.>
Can you help clear this up?
<See above. Hopefully you will understand my explanation.>
I don't wanna make a mistake before I even restart this thing. What options do I
have here? Any help clearing this up would be awesome.
Thanks, Tim Turner of Reading, PA
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Pszemol
April 19th 05, 05:00 AM
"George" > wrote in message news:d0Z8e.409$WI3.145@attbi_s71...
> <I would add buffers at this point, before you add the expensive salt.
> RO water is depleted of minerals and will take them up like a sponge,
> potentially leaving you with a lower than desired pH. Best to add either
> baking soda or a commercial buffer like the Seachem product.>

And what if you overdose buffers? Will you add *less* of "expensive salt"?
What if your baking soda will replace to much of other essencial ions
since you measure total salnity INCLUDING previously added baking soda
in place of salt mix ?

This comment about the sponge sounds very amusing. Salt mixes are designed
to use them with pure water. Manufacturers do not count on minerals in
tap water to mix to the right levels... If you add too much buffer to ro
water before mixing salt you might overdose buffers/alkalinity and the whole
batch of brine will not mix well or will be way off the chart...

Again - reinventing the wheel! Please quote a single salt manufacturers
mixing instructions advocating adding buffers first and then mixing salt...

CheezWiz
April 20th 05, 02:01 AM
I use this:

http://www.kentmarine.com/sal****er/opm.html

CW

CapFusion
April 20th 05, 09:22 PM
"George" > wrote in message
news:d0Z8e.409$WI3.145@attbi_s71...
> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/rofaq3.htm
>
> - RO Questions -
> HI guys, Bryan here.
> <Hi, Bryan, JasonC on this end...>1
> Have some questions regarding water makeup with RO. <OK.> Read thru F&Q's
> and would like some help clarifying some things. OK here goes. Make up
> water to add to tank: I take my RO water and aerate and heat for a day to
> drive off CO2 and increase dissolved O2. (this next order is where I'm a
> little confused) Then add my salt mix (Tropic Marine) aerate for a day.
> Test for salinity, pH, and ALK, add buffer as needed from the test
> results. Sound OK? <I would add buffers at this point, before you add the
> expensive salt. RO water is depleted of minerals and will take them up
> like a sponge, potentially leaving you with a lower than desired pH. Best
> to add either baking soda or a commercial buffer like the Seachem
> product.>
> Evaporation top-off: Take RO water, aerate and heat for a day. This is
> where I'm a little unsure. Test the water parameters and buffer as
> according? <I'm not sure you need to heat the top off, unless you add it
> in bulk quantities.> Set pH and Buffer according to main tank display,
> right? <Ideally, yes.> Last thing to help me clarify. In the display tank
> I'll use ESV 2 part B-Ionic for ALK and calcium. for top off and make up
> water I'll probably use SeaChem reef builder. Do using these 2 different
> buffers in the water have any adverse affects? <No. The two part additive
> is a 'system' so that the buffers compliment the calcium additive. The
> buffering in your top-off is really only making sure the RO doesn't lower
> the pH of the tank.> Ok last thing for real. IYO who or what company has
> the best all around supplements/additives, Mg, Br, Iodide etc... (just
> wondering, only using if test for and find a need) <I don't have any
> particular preference, but I do try to stay away from Kent and Mark Weiss
> products.>
> Thanks for your help Bryan.
> <Cheers, J -- >
>
> - RO Questions -
> Jason, Bryan again, thanks for quick response and great info. <My
> pleasure.> You helped clarify things for me about RO water treatment. I
> was a little confused about the order of adding buffer and salt. I had
> read somewhere to buffer then add salt and then last night read someone
> from WWM was adding salt then buffer. Got a little confused. This is
> probably a silly question. But when buffering the raw RO water, are you
> shooting
> to buffer to the target range for the main display or just adding enough
> to add some minerals to the water so it doesn't act like a sponge when you
> add the salt? <The latter, just enough so that the RO doesn't deplete the
> buffers in the salt.>
> Thanks again Bryan
> <Cheers, J -- >
>
> One more RO/DI question
> Hi again,
> <Hello!>
> I was wondering what the best procedure would be for introducing RO/DI
> water to an established aquarium. Should I just begin using it for top
> off and regular water changes, with no changes to my usual routine; or,
> should I begin with one or more, larger than normal water changes?
> <Makes little/no difference. Test the pH and make it match your aquarium
> and of course...match the temp to that of the aquarium>
> As per my last email, I have found 'RO Right' and 'Osmo Prep Marine' (both
> by Kent), are these types of additives necessary? recommended?
> <Test your pH to see if it matches your tank. If not buffer it up using
> baking soda or other buffer fluid/powder. I am not familiar with RO Right
> but if it's a buffer agent (and it should state that on the label) then it
> will work as well as anything else>
> Thanks again,
> <You're more than welcome! David Dowless>
> Adam
>
> RO/DI Questions
> Hi guys,
> I am a few days from purchasing the Typhoon 3 RO/DI from
> http://www.airwaterice.com/Typhoon%20lll.htm, if you know anything about
> this model (positive or negative), I would appreciate your input.
> <I have no first hand experience nor know anyone with this brand.>
> I've read that after processing the water through the RO/DI you have to
> use some sort of supplement to replenish certain essentials that are
> removed by the RO/DI process.
> <Correct. Best to read through the articles and FAQ files on treating RO
> or DI water. My protocol (briefly) is to aerate, heat, mix salt, test pH,
> alkalinity, and calcium, adjust with additives, and use.>
> Can you please point me to a vendor where I can find these additives?
> <Just about any good buffer will work.>
> Also, any recommendations on a brand name for the additive is appreciated.
> <I use Seachem's Marine Buffer and Reef Builder.>
> Thanks, Adam
> <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
>
> Buffering Top Off Water
> I buffer my top off water after aerating for a day. If I test for
> KH/Alkalinity, what should my results be before I use the top off water?
> <Ugh, what?>
> Should I be getting these results immediately after adding the buffer?
> <I would wait until the next day. You are looking for trends here, not
> immediate changes.>
> I don't want to use too much. I am using Seachem Reef Builder.
> <I would add the same amount every other day, testing on the odd days for
> one week. Then look back at your records and note the trend. You will then
> know if you must adjust up or down. Repeat this procedure for a few weeks
> until you get a feel for your tank's needs. Then just double check every
> couple of months as things grow, you add new corals, etc. your tank's
> demands will change.>
> Thanks
> <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
>
> RO/DI Use
> I am currently resetting up my 125 gallon tank. I am going to be setting
> it up as a FOWLR tank. I have a 125 main tank, 55 gallon sump tank, and a
> 38 High refugium sharing the same sump. I am looking to do this right this
> time from the start. I have never used RO/DI before and would like to take
> the plunge.
> <I highly recommend all marine tanks use purified water. You will save
> time and money over tap water by not having to battle nuisance algae
> problems.>
> The tap water in my area is hard and worked for my cichlids, but I don't
> trust it for a reef or salt setup. My confusion comes when it comes to
> adding the RO water. I have seen on the FAQ's two opinions. One saying its
> ok to plumb the RO directly into the tank for auto top offs and other
> opinions saying its not the best thing to do.
> <They are both right. I have seen people use their RO water straight out
> of it for automatic top offs, but it is not the best option. Taking RO
> water, storing it for a day, aerating it, and perhaps using it with
> Kalkwasser is the best.>
> Can you help clear this up?
> <See above. Hopefully you will understand my explanation.>
> I don't wanna make a mistake before I even restart this thing. What
> options do I have here? Any help clearing this up would be awesome.
> Thanks, Tim Turner of Reading, PA
> <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
>
>

That is very interesting articles.
I normally add the salt mix first then add any ca or other thing if needed.

CapFusion,...

Billy
April 21st 05, 04:48 AM
You mean we're not supposed to just run the garden hose in the window
and drop it in the display tank? <eg>



--
Billy
----
Beta-Tester
WinExtra
Home Socrates
http://www.winextra.com
news://news.winextra.com
About our newsgroups:
http://www.winextra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=36

"George" > wrote in message
news:d0Z8e.409$WI3.145@attbi_s71...
> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/rofaq3.htm
>

Chris Gentry
April 21st 05, 10:24 PM
"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "George" > wrote in message
news:d0Z8e.409$WI3.145@attbi_s71...
> > <I would add buffers at this point, before you add the expensive salt.
> > RO water is depleted of minerals and will take them up like a sponge,
> > potentially leaving you with a lower than desired pH. Best to add either
> > baking soda or a commercial buffer like the Seachem product.>
>
> And what if you overdose buffers? Will you add *less* of "expensive salt"?
> What if your baking soda will replace to much of other essencial ions
> since you measure total salnity INCLUDING previously added baking soda
> in place of salt mix ?
>
> This comment about the sponge sounds very amusing. Salt mixes are designed
> to use them with pure water. Manufacturers do not count on minerals in
> tap water to mix to the right levels... If you add too much buffer to ro
> water before mixing salt you might overdose buffers/alkalinity and the
whole
> batch of brine will not mix well or will be way off the chart...
>
> Again - reinventing the wheel! Please quote a single salt manufacturers
> mixing instructions advocating adding buffers first and then mixing
salt...

Actually there are some salt mixes that are designed to be
used with regular tap water. (This taken from Anthony
Calfo's book on coral propagation.)

Pszemol
April 21st 05, 11:09 PM
"Chris Gentry" > wrote in message news:gSU9e.6442$WI3.995@attbi_s71...
>> Again - reinventing the wheel! Please quote a single salt manufacturers
>> mixing instructions advocating adding buffers first and then mixing
>> salt...
>
> Actually there are some salt mixes that are designed to be
> used with regular tap water. (This taken from Anthony
> Calfo's book on coral propagation.)

I would be interested in which one this would be...
And how do you define tap water... There are some
places where water is "hard" and contains a lot of
calcium/magnesium salts and there are different
places where water is softer, with less TDS...

CapFusion
April 21st 05, 11:29 PM
"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Chris Gentry" > wrote in message
> news:gSU9e.6442$WI3.995@attbi_s71...
>>> Again - reinventing the wheel! Please quote a single salt manufacturers
>>> mixing instructions advocating adding buffers first and then mixing
>>> salt...
>>
>> Actually there are some salt mixes that are designed to be
>> used with regular tap water. (This taken from Anthony
>> Calfo's book on coral propagation.)
>
> I would be interested in which one this would be...
> And how do you define tap water... There are some
> places where water is "hard" and contains a lot of
> calcium/magnesium salts and there are different
> places where water is softer, with less TDS...

The lowest TDS from tap water that I know of is from SF. My TDS indicated
about 30 - 35 ppm or so.
Water straight from the tap well very greatly from city to city and country.

CapFusion,...

George
April 22nd 05, 12:24 AM
"CapFusion" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Chris Gentry" > wrote in message
>> news:gSU9e.6442$WI3.995@attbi_s71...
>>>> Again - reinventing the wheel! Please quote a single salt manufacturers
>>>> mixing instructions advocating adding buffers first and then mixing
>>>> salt...
>>>
>>> Actually there are some salt mixes that are designed to be
>>> used with regular tap water. (This taken from Anthony
>>> Calfo's book on coral propagation.)
>>
>> I would be interested in which one this would be...
>> And how do you define tap water... There are some
>> places where water is "hard" and contains a lot of
>> calcium/magnesium salts and there are different
>> places where water is softer, with less TDS...
>
> The lowest TDS from tap water that I know of is from SF. My TDS indicated
> about 30 - 35 ppm or so.
> Water straight from the tap well very greatly from city to city and country.
>
> CapFusion,...

That is true. However, remember, per U.S. EPA regulations, the maximum
concentration level (MCL) for TDS in drinking water is 500 mg/L. Sea Water
contains 30,000-40,000 mg/L TDS. So the TDS of ordinary tap water isn't usually
a problem. The same cannot be said for other compounds found in tap water.

unclenorm
April 22nd 05, 02:02 PM
Hi everybody,
I'm afraid I don't under stand all this talk of
additives in RO/DI top of water?. If your normal water parameters are
correct all you will do by putting additives such as buffers etc.. in
the top of water is put your water parameters out of sink, top of water
is to replace water lost to evaporation, during evaporation only pure
water leaves the tank as moisture all your salt, buffers etc.. remain
so you only need to add pure water i.e. RO/DI this will not change your
PH or anything else from what it was before the evaporation took place
if you need to add salt or anything else then your water parameters
were not correct in the first place. You can occasionally add 'kalk' to
your top of water as an easy way to raise the levels when necessary.
regards,
unclenorm.

unclenorm
April 22nd 05, 03:27 PM
George,
I don't know were you get your figures from, drinking
water at 500mg/L? I wouldn't like to drink it !! . Drinking water
should have a TSD reading of 50 or less be it mg/L or ppm (to all
intents and purposes they can be considered equal). As for sea water at
40,000mg/L !! you could walk on it !!. The sea around my part of the
world is perfectly normal sea water and has a TSD reading of 500 to
520, my artificial sea water in my tanks also reads between 500 and
520.
regards,
unclenorm

Pszemol
April 22nd 05, 04:23 PM
"unclenorm" > wrote in message ups.com...
> George,
> I don't know were you get your figures from, drinking
> water at 500mg/L? I wouldn't like to drink it !! . Drinking water
> should have a TSD reading of 50 or less be it mg/L or ppm (to all
> intents and purposes they can be considered equal). As for sea water at
> 40,000mg/L !! you could walk on it !!. The sea around my part of the
> world is perfectly normal sea water and has a TSD reading of 500 to
> 520, my artificial sea water in my tanks also reads between 500 and
> 520.

Something is wrong with numbers above... They dont seem to be right.
How can you have only 500mg/l TDS in your sea water if you add about
35 grams of salt mix to a liter of water to make up artificial sea water?
Salinity of sea water is 35ppt (parts per thousand) and liter is 1000gram.
TDS in mg/l for sea water should be around 35000mg/l.
Many reef tanks are running with concentration of 500mg/l of Calcium
alone - what about other ions like Na+, Cl-, Mg++, SO4--, CO4-- etc?
Looking only at calcium concentration you can tell your 500mg/l TDS
for sea water is not right.

And for freshwater - maximum TDS of 50mg/l is kind of low, since
the maximum in tap water of nitrates alone is set to be 50mg/l... (mg/dm3).
Many sources of tap water have 100mg/l of calcium in it, 20-50mg/l
magnesium etc. So 500mg/l max for freshwater seems to be right number.

CheezWiz
April 22nd 05, 07:21 PM
I use this:

http://www.kentmarine.com/sal****er/opm.html

CW

George
April 23rd 05, 04:52 AM
"unclenorm" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> George,
> I don't know were you get your figures from, drinking
> water at 500mg/L? I wouldn't like to drink it !! . Drinking water
> should have a TSD reading of 50 or less be it mg/L or ppm (to all
> intents and purposes they can be considered equal).

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mcl.html#mcls

National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations

National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations (NSDWRs or secondary standards)
are non-enforceable guidelines regulating contaminants that may cause cosmetic
effects (such as skin or tooth discoloration) or aesthetic effects (such as
taste, odor, or color) in drinking water. EPA recommends secondary standards to
water systems but does not require systems to comply. However, states may choose
to adopt them as enforceable standards. (Many states have adopted them)

For more information, read Secondary Drinking Water Regulations: Guidance for
Nuisance Chemicals.

ContaminantSecondary Standard
Aluminum0.05 to 0.2 mg/L
Chloride250 mg/L
Color15 (color units)
Copper1.0 mg/L
Corrosivitynoncorrosive
Fluoride2.0 mg/L
Foaming Agents0.5 mg/L
Iron0.3 mg/L
Manganese0.05 mg/L
Odor3 threshold odor number
pH6.5-8.5
Silver0.10 mg/L
Sulfate250 mg/L
***Total Dissolved Solids500 mg/L***
Zinc5 mg/L

As for sea water at
> 40,000mg/L !! you could walk on it !!. The sea around my part of the
> world is perfectly normal sea water and has a TSD reading of 500 to
> 520, my artificial sea water in my tanks also reads between 500 and
> 520.
> regards,
> unclenorm

You are confusing ppm (parts per million=mg/L) and ppt (parts per thousand=g/L).

http://www.pacificro.com/WaterCla.htm

Water Classifications

The "Glossary of Salt Water" published by the Water Quality Association
classifies water as follows:

Fresh: <1,000 ppm TDS
Brackish: 1,000-5,000 ppm TDS
Highly Brackish: 5,000-15,000 ppm TDS
Saline: 15,000-30,000 ppm TDS
Sea Water: 30,000-40,000 ppm TDS
Brine: 40,000-300,000+ ppmTDS

PPM: Parts per million=mg/L
TDS: Total Dissolved Solids

unclenorm
April 24th 05, 07:31 AM
Hi George,
My apologies I retract that post I wasn't thinking
straight, it was late at night and I had just got home from a party
rather the worse for wear!!. My statement re. drinking water was
correct though I should have said it referred to RO/DI bottled water. I
still wouldn't drink water with a TSD reading of 500!.
regards and apologies again,
unclenorm.

George
April 24th 05, 12:45 PM
"unclenorm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi George,
> My apologies I retract that post I wasn't thinking
> straight, it was late at night and I had just got home from a party
> rather the worse for wear!!. My statement re. drinking water was
> correct though I should have said it referred to RO/DI bottled water. I
> still wouldn't drink water with a TSD reading of 500!.
> regards and apologies again,
> unclenorm.

Of course, not. 500 mg/L is the maximum allowed. But beleive me, most
municipal water supplies would cringe at the thought of pumping water with that
high a number through their pipes. And most water well drillers strive for much
lower numbers, usually below 100 mg/L, or better if they can do it. A lot of
people on well water don't have that option since they have old well, and
instead have had to install expensive filters to deal with it. Others haven't
done anything at all, and simply say "I've drank this water all my life and it
ain't killed me yet". You wouldn't believe the number of people who have said
this to me, despite the fact that what I am looking for when I test is petroleum
contaminants. I've actually had two clients die as a result of long-term
exposure to petroleum contaminants in their wells. Oh, and no apologies needed,
Norm.