I am ready to open a pharmacy...

[[email protected]]

Hi,

I've only have my tank for a couple months now, and so far I got:

PimaFix
Melafix
Stress Coat
Super Ick cure
Plant Gro fertilizer
Ph Down conditioner (don't use anymore)
Dried Bloodworms
Brine shrimp pellets
Flakes (food)
Flakes with dried worms
Algae tabs

Got a 3Gal tank for hospital/quarantine with filter and heater
Got also a small breeder tank that can also be used to isolate fish.
Oh yeah alot of fake plants. :)
What should I do with them?

I also plan on getting aquarium salt at the lfs today.

So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:

[Tedd Jacobs]

> wrote...
[...]
>
> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
>

a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)

tedd.

--
1. A -> B
2. B -> C
3. ~A -> ~C .: C <-> A

[sophiefishstuff]

In message >, Tedd Jacobs
> writes
>
> wrote...
>[...]
>>
>> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
>>
>
>a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)

then you put something in the little tank.
then you need a bigger tank, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...
>
>tedd.
>

--
sophie

www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
(under construction. ish.)

[Gill Passman]

"sophiefishstuff" > wrote in
message ...
> In message >, Tedd Jacobs
> > writes
> >
> > wrote...
> >[...]
> >>
> >> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
> >>
> >
> >a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)
>
> then you put something in the little tank.
> then you need a bigger tank, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...
> >
> >tedd.
> >
>
> --
> sophie
>
> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
> (under construction. ish.)

Then you put something in your QT tank so you need another one of
those....then you wander around the house looking for potential tank
sites....

[~Roy~]

Well other than the PimaFix and Melafix, most of the other stuff is
perfectly fine to have around. If your intent on the mela and pima
snake oils, may I suggest you stock up on activated carbon as its
gonna take a heap of it to rid your water of the crap and junk it
makes in it......I do not see anay dechlorinating stuff
listed......water exhanges are perhaps the most important ingredient
you omitted, especially when dealing with a sick fish..

Why do you need plant fertilizer if you got a heap of "fake" plants is
what I would like to know....;-)

On 20 Apr 2005 09:26:33 -0700, "
> wrote:

>===<>Hi,
>===<>
>===<>I've only have my tank for a couple months now, and so far I got:
>===<>
>===<>PimaFix
>===<>Melafix
>===<>Stress Coat
>===<>Super Ick cure
>===<>Plant Gro fertilizer
>===<>Ph Down conditioner (don't use anymore)
>===<>Dried Bloodworms
>===<>Brine shrimp pellets
>===<>Flakes (food)
>===<>Flakes with dried worms
>===<>Algae tabs
>===<>
>===<>Got a 3Gal tank for hospital/quarantine with filter and heater
>===<>Got also a small breeder tank that can also be used to isolate fish.
>===<>Oh yeah alot of fake plants. :)
>===<>What should I do with them?
>===<>
>===<>I also plan on getting aquarium salt at the lfs today.
>===<>
>===<>So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

[sophiefishstuff]

In message >, Gill Passman
> writes
>
>"sophiefishstuff" > wrote in
>message ...
>> In message >, Tedd Jacobs
>> > writes
>> >
>> > wrote...
>> >[...]
>> >>
>> >> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
>> >>
>> >
>> >a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)
>>
>> then you put something in the little tank.
>> then you need a bigger tank, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...
>> >
>> >tedd.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> sophie
>>
>> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
>> (under construction. ish.)
>
>Then you put something in your QT tank so you need another one of
>those....then you wander around the house looking for potential tank
>sites....

I think I may have solved the problem. I have bought a 32 inch tank to
replace the 18 inch one in my daughter's room (on eBay, natch) and am
considering taking the little one into school (I work in a primary
school) to quarantine new fish there. Good for the kids, doesn't get set
up as a semi-permanent fixture inviting its own fish in the house...
>
>

--
sophie

www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
(under construction. ish.)

[[email protected]]

> Why do you need plant fertilizer if you got a heap of "fake" plants
is
> what I would like to know....;-)
>
Thats because I started with fake plants and have replaced them with
live ones gradually. :)

Water exchanges is a given I do that now once a week.
I also keep testing the water and do regular cleaning.
No need for dechlorinator because I get water from a well. :)

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've only have my tank for a couple months now, and so far I got:
>
> PimaFix
> Melafix
> Stress Coat
> Super Ick cure
> Plant Gro fertilizer
> Ph Down conditioner (don't use anymore)
> Dried Bloodworms
> Brine shrimp pellets
> Flakes (food)
> Flakes with dried worms
> Algae tabs
>
> Got a 3Gal tank for hospital/quarantine with filter and heater
> Got also a small breeder tank that can also be used to isolate fish.
> Oh yeah alot of fake plants. :)
> What should I do with them?

Use them in quarantine. They can be disinfected much better than live
plants and still give fish some cover and a sense of security.
>
> I also plan on getting aquarium salt at the lfs today.
>
> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
>
Pretty normal list. Much shorter than mine. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've only have my tank for a couple months now, and so far I got:
> >
> > PimaFix
> > Melafix
> > Stress Coat
> > Super Ick cure
> > Plant Gro fertilizer
> > Ph Down conditioner (don't use anymore)
> > Dried Bloodworms
> > Brine shrimp pellets
> > Flakes (food)
> > Flakes with dried worms
> > Algae tabs
> >
> > Got a 3Gal tank for hospital/quarantine with filter and heater
> > Got also a small breeder tank that can also be used to isolate fish.
> > Oh yeah alot of fake plants. :)
> > What should I do with them?
>
> Use them in quarantine. They can be disinfected much better than live
> plants and still give fish some cover and a sense of security.
> >
> > I also plan on getting aquarium salt at the lfs today.
> >
> > So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
> >
> Pretty normal list. Much shorter than mine. ;-)
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Agreed...I now have two Ich treatments on the list plus a wide variety of
food as the food I give is dependant on what fish are in which tank (one day
hubbie will question what is in the bottom drawer of the freezer, or
actually more likely my mother if I ever let her get close enough -
lol)....plus a variety of "cycling" products - dependant on where I bought
the tanks and what was bundled at the time...same goes for water
conditioners and plant foods...also have a very big bag of fake plants - I
prefer live for their water conditioning qualities...if I have to throw them
after I live with it....

[Bill Stock]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I've only have my tank for a couple months now, and so far I got:
>
> PimaFix
> Melafix
> Stress Coat
> Super Ick cure
> Plant Gro fertilizer
> Ph Down conditioner (don't use anymore)
> Dried Bloodworms
> Brine shrimp pellets
> Flakes (food)
> Flakes with dried worms
> Algae tabs
>
> Got a 3Gal tank for hospital/quarantine with filter and heater
> Got also a small breeder tank that can also be used to isolate fish.
> Oh yeah alot of fake plants. :)
> What should I do with them?
>
> I also plan on getting aquarium salt at the lfs today.
>
> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:

Well there's Potassium Permanganate, Trace Mix, Potassium Nitrate, Muriate
of Potash, Epsom Salts, Sodium ThioSulphate, Alum, Hydrogen Peroxide,
Bleach, Fungus Cure and Antibiotic food to mention a few. Plus I'm sure you
have multiple test kits. :)

[[email protected]]

Oh yeah I forgot the test master kit as well... :)

[[email protected]]

What about mercurochrome? Used as a topic treatment for wounds (I
definitely have had success with it in the distant past).

> No need for dechlorinator because > I get water from a well. :)

Well water rules in my opinion! I was amazed about how my cousins had
some fish (betta, goldfishes) in tiny little bowls of their well water
and I don't think any died or got sick for a whole year at which point
they gave the fish away to a child (I'm pretty sure the child was
supervised by his/her parents). Later!

[Tedd Jacobs]

> wrote...
<snip>
>> No need for dechlorinator because I get water from a well. :)
>
> Well water rules in my opinion! [...]

amen! now that i have it i will never go back to city water given the
choice.

tedd.

--
....where's Polonius?

[Justin Boucher]

My wife and I are moving into the closet so we have more room to store more
tanks.

=)

Obviously not true, but as a fish hobbyist, I can always think of new tank
setups I would like to have.


"sophiefishstuff" > wrote in
message ...
> In message >, Gill Passman
> > writes
> >
> >"sophiefishstuff" > wrote in
> >message ...
> >> In message >, Tedd Jacobs
> >> > writes
> >> >
> >> > wrote...
> >> >[...]
> >> >>
> >> >> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)
> >>
> >> then you put something in the little tank.
> >> then you need a bigger tank, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...
> >> >
> >> >tedd.
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> sophie
> >>
> >> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
> >> (under construction. ish.)
> >
> >Then you put something in your QT tank so you need another one of
> >those....then you wander around the house looking for potential tank
> >sites....
>
> I think I may have solved the problem. I have bought a 32 inch tank to
> replace the 18 inch one in my daughter's room (on eBay, natch) and am
> considering taking the little one into school (I work in a primary
> school) to quarantine new fish there. Good for the kids, doesn't get set
> up as a semi-permanent fixture inviting its own fish in the house...
> >
> >
>
> --
> sophie
>
> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
> (under construction. ish.)

[bassett]

If as you say , you use """FRESH """ water, from a Well or a tank, keep all
the food, and throw the rest of the Crap away. You don't need any of it.
Once you add any chemicial to water, you can NEVER remove it, regardless of
water changes. and frankly all your doing it keeping the drug companies
happy.
bassett

[Ross Vandegrift]

On 2005-04-20, ~Roy~ > wrote:
> Well other than the PimaFix and Melafix, most of the other stuff is
> perfectly fine to have around. If your intent on the mela and pima
> snake oils, may I suggest you stock up on activated carbon as its
> gonna take a heap of it to rid your water of the crap and junk it
> makes in it..

Hi Roy, what kinds of things do I need to watch out for with MelaFix?
I bought a bottle of it on recomendation from some respected members of
this group and used it with pretty good luck. That's the first I've
heard of it causing problems.

I moslty dose it in a quarantine tank, though I did drop a dose in my
min planted tank to help my fish fend off a stint of Ich that I was
treating. I suspect that my regular water changes made it a non-issue.

Just curious!

--
Ross Vandegrift

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37

[Elaine T]

bassett wrote:
> If as you say , you use """FRESH """ water, from a Well or a tank, keep all
> the food, and throw the rest of the Crap away. You don't need any of it.
> Once you add any chemicial to water, you can NEVER remove it, regardless of
> water changes. and frankly all your doing it keeping the drug companies
> happy.
> bassett
>
>
So you don't disinfect your plants (ewwww)? You don't quarantine and
treat wild-caught fish for the flukes and parasites they often have?
And your plants must look absolutely horrid with no fertilizers.

You are also just plain wrong about NEVER being able to remove
chemicals. Activated carbon does a very good job of it. Many other
medicines like malachite greenm, formalin, and Maroxy break down over
time whether or not you use carbon. Others are metabolized by
autotrophic bacteria or plants in the tank. Even a hypothetical
chemical not broken down or removed by carbon or resin (and I can't
really think of one) eventually becomes infinitely diluted by water
changes. I change 50% of the water a week in my tanks. That means that
after 10 weeks, anything I've added to a tank is diluted 1024-fold.
After 6 months, it's diluted 6.7 MILLION-fold. For all intents and
purposes, it's gone.

I am not an advocate of using chemicals in display fishtanks other than
dechlorinator and plant fertilizers. You'll notice I generally suggest
medicines in food, dabbed on the fish, or in quarantine. However, I
wanted to correct some of your misconceptions about removing chemicals
from fishtanks.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[jdavis]

Then you need another tank for the babies..

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:20:35 +0100, sophiefishstuff
> wrote:

>In message >, Gill Passman
> writes
>>
>>"sophiefishstuff" > wrote in
>>message ...
>>> In message >, Tedd Jacobs
>>> > writes
>>> >
>>> > wrote...
>>> >[...]
>>> >>
>>> >> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)
>>>
>>> then you put something in the little tank.
>>> then you need a bigger tank, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...
>>> >
>>> >tedd.
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> sophie
>>>
>>> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
>>> (under construction. ish.)
>>
>>Then you put something in your QT tank so you need another one of
>>those....then you wander around the house looking for potential tank
>>sites....
>
>I think I may have solved the problem. I have bought a 32 inch tank to
>replace the 18 inch one in my daughter's room (on eBay, natch) and am
>considering taking the little one into school (I work in a primary
>school) to quarantine new fish there. Good for the kids, doesn't get set
>up as a semi-permanent fixture inviting its own fish in the house...
>>
>>

[sophiefishstuff]

In message >, jdavis
> writes
>Then you need another tank for the babies..

I could never keep my children in a tank!


>
>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:20:35 +0100, sophiefishstuff
> wrote:
>
>>In message >, Gill Passman
> writes
>>>
>>>"sophiefishstuff" > wrote in
>>>message ...
>>>> In message >, Tedd Jacobs
>>>> > writes
>>>> >
>>>> > wrote...
>>>> >[...]
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> then you put something in the little tank.
>>>> then you need a bigger tank, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...
>>>> >
>>>> >tedd.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> sophie
>>>>
>>>> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
>>>> (under construction. ish.)
>>>
>>>Then you put something in your QT tank so you need another one of
>>>those....then you wander around the house looking for potential tank
>>>sites....
>>
>>I think I may have solved the problem. I have bought a 32 inch tank to
>>replace the 18 inch one in my daughter's room (on eBay, natch) and am
>>considering taking the little one into school (I work in a primary
>>school) to quarantine new fish there. Good for the kids, doesn't get set
>>up as a semi-permanent fixture inviting its own fish in the house...
>>>
>>>
>

--
sophie

www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
(under construction. ish.)

[Gill Passman]

Tempting sometimes though..... :-)


"sophiefishstuff" > wrote in
message ...
> In message >, jdavis
> > writes
> >Then you need another tank for the babies..
>
> I could never keep my children in a tank!
>
>
> >
> >On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:20:35 +0100, sophiefishstuff
> > wrote:
> >
> >>In message >, Gill Passman
> > writes
> >>>
> >>>"sophiefishstuff" > wrote
in
> >>>message ...
> >>>> In message >, Tedd Jacobs
> >>>> > writes
> >>>> >
> >>>> > wrote...
> >>>> >[...]
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> So am I missing something else on the *must have* list? :rolleyes:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >
> >>>> >a bigger tank; every aquariest *must have* a bigger tank. ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>> then you put something in the little tank.
> >>>> then you need a bigger tank, dear Lisa, dear Lisa...
> >>>> >
> >>>> >tedd.
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> sophie
> >>>>
> >>>> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
> >>>> (under construction. ish.)
> >>>
> >>>Then you put something in your QT tank so you need another one of
> >>>those....then you wander around the house looking for potential tank
> >>>sites....
> >>
> >>I think I may have solved the problem. I have bought a 32 inch tank to
> >>replace the 18 inch one in my daughter's room (on eBay, natch) and am
> >>considering taking the little one into school (I work in a primary
> >>school) to quarantine new fish there. Good for the kids, doesn't get set
> >>up as a semi-permanent fixture inviting its own fish in the house...
> >>>
> >>>
> >
>
> --
> sophie
>
> www.freewebs.com/fishstuff
> (under construction. ish.)

[bassett]

Hallo Elaine, To answer your questions,,
It's very doubtful that you will find any wild caught tropical fish in
Australian aquariums, Why would you disinfect living plants, ??. Why is it
that people always assume, wrongly in most cases, that because something
that has lived for many years, bred and propagated in the wild, is diseased.
In the wild only the strong survive, they can't pop down to the Chemists.
Your argument about , removing all bacteria // chemicals from water, would
be great news for the World Health Organisation, If it was valid. No more
Typhoid, Dengi-Fever, Malaria, etc, etc, All your doing with carbon, and
the other assortment of chemicals is covering up, or in some cases diluting
what's there, Perhaps you can tell us the effect your Chemicals will have
when mixed, with what's in some water. Tell me, would you drink your Tank
water, Your fish do.

Have you any idea , just how complex, the issue is with regard to supplying
"Clean water" Not to mention the costs involved. It would be a very simple
matter of supplying Clean water to 3rd world countries , if your argument
was that simple.

I really don't want to be rude, But if your changing 50% of your water
once a week, in your tanks, By that I assume your saying every tank, every
week. You have big problems with your management program. Or are they so
loaded with Chemical reactions , that it's the only way you can keep your
fish alive.

All my tanks are 3 foot , and I only have 6, and a couple of 2 ft tanks. I
change two bucket fulls [20 litres] once a fortnight. No chemicals ever.
except a pinch of Bicarb, if the Ph is a bit on the acid side. I will admit
I,m not breeding the fish I used to, simply because it was talking over my
life, But I did breed a lot of Angles, at one time, No Chemicals at all, and
once I got the little buggers eating, I don't loose any. People will tell
you, that small young baby fish will get a Fungus infection. That's
rubbish, Fish in the wild don't and think of the predators that like eating
baby fish, and there's a bloody lot of them surviving for the aquarium
trade.

I have a mate who breeds a lot of Cichlids, Its nothing for him to have 200
growing fish in a 4 ft tank, I was round there the other week, He takes
the Canister filter return line out of the tank and lets it run on the
ground, When its down a couple of inches, he sticks the garden hose in the
tank, and lets it over flow, Then he shifts the filter to the next tank, and
repeats the operation.
He recon's they grow better in old water. For feeding he throws a handful
of Spirulina in every couple of days, and buys the stuff by the bucketful.

What you don't seem to understand is we have clean chemical free water,
and believe me when I tell you, It does make a difference.
bassett

Elaine T" > wrote in message
> So you don't disinfect your plants (ewwww)? You don't quarantine and
> treat wild-caught fish for the flukes and parasites they often have? And
> your plants must look absolutely horrid with no fertilizers.
>
> You are also just plain wrong about NEVER being able to remove chemicals.
> Activated carbon does a very good job of it. Many other medicines like
> malachite greenm, formalin, and Maroxy break down over time whether or not
> you use carbon. Others are metabolized by autotrophic bacteria or plants
> in the tank. Even a hypothetical chemical not broken down or removed by
> carbon or resin (and I can't really think of one) eventually becomes
> infinitely diluted by water changes. I change 50% of the water a week in
> my tanks. That means that after 10 weeks, anything I've added to a tank
> is diluted 1024-fold. After 6 months, it's diluted 6.7 MILLION-fold. For
> all intents and purposes, it's gone.
>
> I am not an advocate of using chemicals in display fishtanks other than
> dechlorinator and plant fertilizers. You'll notice I generally suggest
> medicines in food, dabbed on the fish, or in quarantine. However, I
> wanted to correct some of your misconceptions about removing chemicals
> from fishtanks.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

> bassett wrote:
>> If as you say , you use """FRESH """ water, from a Well or a tank, keep
>> all the food, and throw the rest of the Crap away. You don't need any of
>> it.
>> Once you add any chemicial to water, you can NEVER remove it, regardless
>> of water changes. and frankly all your doing it keeping the drug
>> companies happy.
>> bassett
>>
>>

[NetMax]

"Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote...
> <snip>
>>> No need for dechlorinator because I get water from a well. :)
>>
>> Well water rules in my opinion! [...]
>
> amen! now that i have it i will never go back to city water given the
> choice.
>
> tedd.


Well...... there are definitely advantages to well water, but also some
serious considerations. The water table you are on might be fed by
multiple sources of very different compositions, so your parameters might
swing according to which are at a higher pressure. A heavy rainfall will
add to water tables at completely different rates, depending on depth and
substrate type, and their effect on the water parameters can swing from
slightly hard to brackish or even toxic. Wells may have a greater
dependency on seasons, agriculture and construction activities. I've
seen wells change from potable to non-potable for no apparent reason,
some even do this cyclically.

If my current well is any example, I've measured variation from 6 to
38dgH, and salinity levels also vary by season. This is a deep well
(180').

Shallow wells feeding off the artesian tables are even more susceptible
to rain load changes (deep wells tend to react more slowly). I can
almost predict a drop in pH and gH about 36 hours after a heavy rainfall.
Faster if this occurs after a period of low rainfall, and slower if the
ground is already wet (because then there is more run-off to lower
grades, and less effect on the table).

From the perspective of chemicals, well water rules :o), but if you are
on well water, my advice is to check your water several times a year (by
season, following periods of drought and heavy rainfall, and when there
are construction or agricultural activities on your water table). An
understanding of your water's behaviour might save you a lot of confusing
grief later on.

If you are on municipal water from a river source, then your gH is
usually solid, kH often low, chlorines varying typically 1.5 to 2.5ppm,
and your pH will vary according to your proximity to the water treatment
site and time of usage. (Monday pm water after commercial usage is often
different from Sunday pm water sitting in the pipes, as city plumbing
will often drop the pH).

If you are on municipal water from a variety of sources (rivers, storage,
wells, lakes and run-off) then you have my condolences ;~), as most of
the disadvantages of city water *and* disadvantages of well water may
apply. In this situation, you water may or may not be good and/or
consistent. There are too many variables, including luck.

Generally, they less confident you are about your water, the more often
you should have a look see at what is happening. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Tedd Jacobs]

"NetMax" wrote...
> "Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> > wrote...
>> <snip>
>>>> No need for dechlorinator because I get water from a well. :)
>>>
>>> Well water rules in my opinion! [...]
>>
>> amen! now that i have it i will never go back to city water given the
>> choice.
>>
>> tedd.
>
>
> Well...... there are definitely advantages to well water, but also some
> serious considerations. The water table you are on might be fed by
> multiple sources of very different compositions, so your parameters might
> swing according to which are at a higher pressure. A heavy rainfall will
> add to water tables at completely different rates, depending on depth and
> substrate type, and their effect on the water parameters can swing from
> slightly hard to brackish or even toxic. Wells may have a greater
> dependency on seasons, agriculture and construction activities. I've seen
> wells change from potable to non-potable for no apparent reason, some even
> do this cyclically.

well great... there you go bursting my bubble (so to speak). i hadnt
considered fluctuation. for reader sake, should there be some preparation
made to adjust for larger swings in the parameters, understanding of course
that each case is accordingly going to vary from place to place. minor
variations, assumingly, would require little more than a careful
consideration when making water changes over a period of time to gradually
acclimate and avaoid large swings. assumingly again, this would be less
notable in larger tanks than smaller ones and considering the well water
fluctuations were small, gradual changes rather than larger, quick ones.
this makes a good argument for i.) calling up the water reports for the
previous year (or more) to look for seasonal trends or any anomolous
readings, ii.) testing the parameters at the tap and the tank before making
changes, and iii.) knowing how much of a variation is within an acceptable
range before any adjustments need to be made.

<snip>

> [...] hth

as always. :-)

tedd.

--
A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

[NetMax]

"Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" wrote...
>> "Tedd Jacobs" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> > wrote...
>>> <snip>
>>>>> No need for dechlorinator because I get water from a well. :)
>>>>
>>>> Well water rules in my opinion! [...]
>>>
>>> amen! now that i have it i will never go back to city water given
>>> the choice.
>>>
>>> tedd.
>>
>>
>> Well...... there are definitely advantages to well water, but also
>> some serious considerations. The water table you are on might be fed
>> by multiple sources of very different compositions, so your parameters
>> might swing according to which are at a higher pressure. A heavy
>> rainfall will add to water tables at completely different rates,
>> depending on depth and substrate type, and their effect on the water
>> parameters can swing from slightly hard to brackish or even toxic.
>> Wells may have a greater dependency on seasons, agriculture and
>> construction activities. I've seen wells change from potable to
>> non-potable for no apparent reason, some even do this cyclically.
>
> well great... there you go bursting my bubble (so to speak). i hadnt
> considered fluctuation. for reader sake, should there be some
> preparation made to adjust for larger swings in the parameters,
> understanding of course that each case is accordingly going to vary
> from place to place. minor variations, assumingly, would require
> little more than a careful consideration when making water changes over
> a period of time to gradually acclimate and avaoid large swings.
> assumingly again, this would be less notable in larger tanks than
> smaller ones and considering the well water fluctuations were small,
> gradual changes rather than larger, quick ones. this makes a good
> argument for i.) calling up the water reports for the previous year (or
> more) to look for seasonal trends or any anomolous readings, ii.)
> testing the parameters at the tap and the tank before making changes,
> and iii.) knowing how much of a variation is within an acceptable range
> before any adjustments need to be made.
>
> <snip>
>
>> [...] hth
>
> as always. :-)
>
> tedd.


I don't find the city reports useful (too general and static). Even a
detailed report on your well is only good until it changes ;~). I manage
my tanks by doing relatively small changes (20%) frequently (every week
or two), and when I know the water is getting too hard (it is mostly
seasonal for me), then I alternate using the water from the softener
(about 1 in 2 up to 3 in 4 water changes). This keeps my water around
16dgH which sometimes appears to be at the limit of most of my plants.

The other notable consideration is that deep wells have far more
dissolved gases, so you need to keep to smaller water changes or air it
out for a day first. I like well water, but that doesn't stop me from
looking forward to moving closer to the city and then setting up a
sof****er tank :~). Ideally, a house with river waterfront (pump my own
sof****er), on municipal supply (river water gets very cold in our
winters) with a small well for gardening (and to keep my hardwater fish
happy). Do you find yourself selecting homes based on your hobby's needs
(lets see, long walls with no windows for the tanks, and not too much
southern exposure to keep the algae down ;~).

--
www.NetMax.tk

[bassett]

I did that when I last moved. But I,m also into satellite TV, ha try
explaining to a Real Estate Agent about look angles and degrees from North.
They thought I was mad, which of cause I am, wandering round the place
with a Compass, and then looking up at the sky through a small tube.
Saying to myself. "yes, yes that will do it.
bassett

"NetMax" > wrote in message >>
Do you find yourself selecting homes based on your hobby's needs
> (lets see, long walls with no windows for the tanks, and not too much
> southern exposure to keep the algae down ;~).
>
> www.NetMax.tk

[Elaine T]

bassett wrote:
> Hallo Elaine, To answer your questions,,
> It's very doubtful that you will find any wild caught tropical fish in
> Australian aquariums, Why would you disinfect living plants, ??. Why is it
> that people always assume, wrongly in most cases, that because something
> that has lived for many years, bred and propagated in the wild, is diseased.
> In the wild only the strong survive, they can't pop down to the Chemists.
> Your argument about , removing all bacteria // chemicals from water, would
> be great news for the World Health Organisation, If it was valid. No more
> Typhoid, Dengi-Fever, Malaria, etc, etc, All your doing with carbon, and
> the other assortment of chemicals is covering up, or in some cases diluting
> what's there, Perhaps you can tell us the effect your Chemicals will have
> when mixed, with what's in some water. Tell me, would you drink your Tank
> water, Your fish do.
>
You insist on making ridiculous statements and wild comparisons.
Mosquito/human borne diseases that don't even live in the water have
nothing to do with aquarium water quality. Mentioning WHO is ludicrous
and you are simply trying to cloud the issue. There is an entirely
different scale between a 10 gallon fishtank and public water supplies
that you are failing to grasp.

I disinfect living plants because they can carry bacteria like
Flexibacter, some strains of which are very virulent. I suppose you
naively trust the water the plants came out of in fish stores?

As for the quality of my tankwater, you seem unable to understand that I
only add chloramine remover and plant fertilizer to anything other than
a quarantine tank with an obviously sick fish. The ONLY reason I would
not drink my tank water is because I'm not sure how healthy iron plant
fertilizers are for people. I regularly swallow a mouthful starting
siphons and am none the worse for it.

> Have you any idea , just how complex, the issue is with regard to supplying
> "Clean water" Not to mention the costs involved. It would be a very simple
> matter of supplying Clean water to 3rd world countries , if your argument
> was that simple.

Again, you are failing to grasp issues of scale. Activated carbon and
mixed bed resins are extremely effective and conductivities of as low as
18 MegaOhms/cm can be obtained with laboratory water purification units.
Similarly, aquarists can use a combination of carbon and mixed bed
resin like Chemi-Pure or Polyfilter to practically remove most
undesirable compounds from aquarium water. Commercial drinking water
facilities don't use carbon or resin because they are TOO BIG!!! They
are also purifying sewage that is thousands of times more contaminated
than fishtank water.
>
> I really don't want to be rude, But if your changing 50% of your water
> once a week, in your tanks, By that I assume your saying every tank, every
> week. You have big problems with your management program. Or are they so
> loaded with Chemical reactions , that it's the only way you can keep your
> fish alive.

Well, you're rude. In fact, you're so rude that I'm considering
killfiling you. Before flaming me, did you check the URL in my sig and
look at my healthy, lush tanks? And read that they're 2 and 5 gallons?
I also have a 10 gallon guppy tank and that one is getting 30% twice a
week to keep the water very clean for the growing young show guppies.
There are no problems in my tanks, and since I've studied biochemistry
for many years I probably have a far better grasp of what's happening in
the water than you can possibly imagine. Large, frequent water changes
provide a very stable environment for fish in small tanks and even in
large ones.

The concept is simple. For small tanks prone to fluctuations, do big
water changes frequently to keep water parameters stable and similar to
those of your tapwater. No swings in hardness, pH, or alkalinity. Low
nitrates, phosphates, and DOC. Regular water testing demonstrates the
stability of the water quality. This is the easiest way a beginner can
keep one of those 10 gallon leader fishtanks stable. On larger tanks I
change 25% to 30% a week because they're intrinsically more stable.
>
> All my tanks are 3 foot , and I only have 6, and a couple of 2 ft tanks. I
> change two bucket fulls [20 litres] once a fortnight. No chemicals ever.
> except a pinch of Bicarb, if the Ph is a bit on the acid side. I will admit
> I,m not breeding the fish I used to, simply because it was talking over my
> life, But I did breed a lot of Angles, at one time, No Chemicals at all, and
> once I got the little buggers eating, I don't loose any. People will tell
> you, that small young baby fish will get a Fungus infection. That's
> rubbish, Fish in the wild don't and think of the predators that like eating
> baby fish, and there's a bloody lot of them surviving for the aquarium
> trade.
>
Last time I checked, bicarb was a chemical and adds unnecessary sodium
to the water. If you changed more water more often, you wouldn't need
it. As for the angels, it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical
that belongs in a fry tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone
here would suggest otherwise. What's your point?

> I have a mate who breeds a lot of Cichlids, Its nothing for him to have 200
> growing fish in a 4 ft tank, I was round there the other week, He takes
> the Canister filter return line out of the tank and lets it run on the
> ground, When its down a couple of inches, he sticks the garden hose in the
> tank, and lets it over flow, Then he shifts the filter to the next tank, and
> repeats the operation.
> He recon's they grow better in old water. For feeding he throws a handful
> of Spirulina in every couple of days, and buys the stuff by the bucketful

And just how often does your friend do these large-sounding water
changes? I hope it's at least weekly if he plans to avoid stunting his
fish.
>
> What you don't seem to understand is we have clean chemical free water,
> and believe me when I tell you, It does make a difference.
> bassett
>
You haven't been talking about clean, chemical free water. You've been
talking about drinking water treatment, making wild and incorrect
assumptions about my tanks, and lambasting me for changing water
frequently. If you want to continue this discussion/flame war, please
come back with water test parameters and hard facts rather than
anecdotes. I shall return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

> Elaine T" > wrote in message
>
>>So you don't disinfect your plants (ewwww)? You don't quarantine and
>>treat wild-caught fish for the flukes and parasites they often have? And
>>your plants must look absolutely horrid with no fertilizers.
>>
>>You are also just plain wrong about NEVER being able to remove chemicals.
>>Activated carbon does a very good job of it. Many other medicines like
>>malachite greenm, formalin, and Maroxy break down over time whether or not
>>you use carbon. Others are metabolized by autotrophic bacteria or plants
>>in the tank. Even a hypothetical chemical not broken down or removed by
>>carbon or resin (and I can't really think of one) eventually becomes
>>infinitely diluted by water changes. I change 50% of the water a week in
>>my tanks. That means that after 10 weeks, anything I've added to a tank
>>is diluted 1024-fold. After 6 months, it's diluted 6.7 MILLION-fold. For
>>all intents and purposes, it's gone.
>>
>>I am not an advocate of using chemicals in display fishtanks other than
>>dechlorinator and plant fertilizers. You'll notice I generally suggest
>>medicines in food, dabbed on the fish, or in quarantine. However, I
>>wanted to correct some of your misconceptions about removing chemicals
>>from fishtanks.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
>>bassett wrote:
>>
>>>If as you say , you use """FRESH """ water, from a Well or a tank, keep
>>>all the food, and throw the rest of the Crap away. You don't need any of
>>>it.
>>>Once you add any chemicial to water, you can NEVER remove it, regardless
>>>of water changes. and frankly all your doing it keeping the drug
>>>companies happy.
>>> bassett
>>>
>>>
>
>
>

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> bassett wrote:
<snip>
>> What you don't seem to understand is we have clean chemical free
>> water,
>> and believe me when I tell you, It does make a difference.
>>
>> bassett
>>
> You haven't been talking about clean, chemical free water. You've been
> talking about drinking water treatment, making wild and incorrect
> assumptions about my tanks, and lambasting me for changing water
> frequently. If you want to continue this discussion/flame war, please
> come back with water test parameters and hard facts rather than
> anecdotes. I shall return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit. ;-)

LOL, bassett *does* have that effect sometimes ;~)
Maybe it's just the delivery.
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><

<snip>

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> bassett wrote:
> > Hallo Elaine, To answer your questions,,
> > It's very doubtful that you will find any wild caught tropical fish in
> > Australian aquariums, Why would you disinfect living plants, ??. Why is
it
> > that people always assume, wrongly in most cases, that because something
> > that has lived for many years, bred and propagated in the wild, is
diseased.
> > In the wild only the strong survive, they can't pop down to the
Chemists.
> > Your argument about , removing all bacteria // chemicals from water,
would
> > be great news for the World Health Organisation, If it was valid. No
more
> > Typhoid, Dengi-Fever, Malaria, etc, etc, All your doing with carbon,
and
> > the other assortment of chemicals is covering up, or in some cases
diluting
> > what's there, Perhaps you can tell us the effect your Chemicals will
have
> > when mixed, with what's in some water. Tell me, would you drink your
Tank
> > water, Your fish do.
> >
> You insist on making ridiculous statements and wild comparisons.
> Mosquito/human borne diseases that don't even live in the water have
> nothing to do with aquarium water quality. Mentioning WHO is ludicrous
> and you are simply trying to cloud the issue. There is an entirely
> different scale between a 10 gallon fishtank and public water supplies
> that you are failing to grasp.
>
> I disinfect living plants because they can carry bacteria like
> Flexibacter, some strains of which are very virulent. I suppose you
> naively trust the water the plants came out of in fish stores?
>
> As for the quality of my tankwater, you seem unable to understand that I
> only add chloramine remover and plant fertilizer to anything other than
> a quarantine tank with an obviously sick fish. The ONLY reason I would
> not drink my tank water is because I'm not sure how healthy iron plant
> fertilizers are for people. I regularly swallow a mouthful starting
> siphons and am none the worse for it.
>
> > Have you any idea , just how complex, the issue is with regard to
supplying
> > "Clean water" Not to mention the costs involved. It would be a very
simple
> > matter of supplying Clean water to 3rd world countries , if your
argument
> > was that simple.
>
> Again, you are failing to grasp issues of scale. Activated carbon and
> mixed bed resins are extremely effective and conductivities of as low as
> 18 MegaOhms/cm can be obtained with laboratory water purification units.
> Similarly, aquarists can use a combination of carbon and mixed bed
> resin like Chemi-Pure or Polyfilter to practically remove most
> undesirable compounds from aquarium water. Commercial drinking water
> facilities don't use carbon or resin because they are TOO BIG!!! They
> are also purifying sewage that is thousands of times more contaminated
> than fishtank water.
> >
> > I really don't want to be rude, But if your changing 50% of your water
> > once a week, in your tanks, By that I assume your saying every tank,
every
> > week. You have big problems with your management program. Or are they so
> > loaded with Chemical reactions , that it's the only way you can keep
your
> > fish alive.
>
> Well, you're rude. In fact, you're so rude that I'm considering
> killfiling you. Before flaming me, did you check the URL in my sig and
> look at my healthy, lush tanks? And read that they're 2 and 5 gallons?
> I also have a 10 gallon guppy tank and that one is getting 30% twice a
> week to keep the water very clean for the growing young show guppies.
> There are no problems in my tanks, and since I've studied biochemistry
> for many years I probably have a far better grasp of what's happening in
> the water than you can possibly imagine. Large, frequent water changes
> provide a very stable environment for fish in small tanks and even in
> large ones.
>
> The concept is simple. For small tanks prone to fluctuations, do big
> water changes frequently to keep water parameters stable and similar to
> those of your tapwater. No swings in hardness, pH, or alkalinity. Low
> nitrates, phosphates, and DOC. Regular water testing demonstrates the
> stability of the water quality. This is the easiest way a beginner can
> keep one of those 10 gallon leader fishtanks stable. On larger tanks I
> change 25% to 30% a week because they're intrinsically more stable.
> >
> > All my tanks are 3 foot , and I only have 6, and a couple of 2 ft
tanks. I
> > change two bucket fulls [20 litres] once a fortnight. No chemicals
ever.
> > except a pinch of Bicarb, if the Ph is a bit on the acid side. I will
admit
> > I,m not breeding the fish I used to, simply because it was talking over
my
> > life, But I did breed a lot of Angles, at one time, No Chemicals at all,
and
> > once I got the little buggers eating, I don't loose any. People will
tell
> > you, that small young baby fish will get a Fungus infection. That's
> > rubbish, Fish in the wild don't and think of the predators that like
eating
> > baby fish, and there's a bloody lot of them surviving for the aquarium
> > trade.
> >
> Last time I checked, bicarb was a chemical and adds unnecessary sodium
> to the water. If you changed more water more often, you wouldn't need
> it. As for the angels, it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical
> that belongs in a fry tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone
> here would suggest otherwise. What's your point?
>
> > I have a mate who breeds a lot of Cichlids, Its nothing for him to have
200
> > growing fish in a 4 ft tank, I was round there the other week, He
takes
> > the Canister filter return line out of the tank and lets it run on the
> > ground, When its down a couple of inches, he sticks the garden hose in
the
> > tank, and lets it over flow, Then he shifts the filter to the next tank,
and
> > repeats the operation.
> > He recon's they grow better in old water. For feeding he throws a
handful
> > of Spirulina in every couple of days, and buys the stuff by the
bucketful
>
> And just how often does your friend do these large-sounding water
> changes? I hope it's at least weekly if he plans to avoid stunting his
> fish.
> >
> > What you don't seem to understand is we have clean chemical free water,
> > and believe me when I tell you, It does make a difference.
> > bassett
> >
> You haven't been talking about clean, chemical free water. You've been
> talking about drinking water treatment, making wild and incorrect
> assumptions about my tanks, and lambasting me for changing water
> frequently. If you want to continue this discussion/flame war, please
> come back with water test parameters and hard facts rather than
> anecdotes. I shall return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit. ;-)
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> > Elaine T" > wrote in message
> >
> >>So you don't disinfect your plants (ewwww)? You don't quarantine and
> >>treat wild-caught fish for the flukes and parasites they often have? And
> >>your plants must look absolutely horrid with no fertilizers.
> >>
> >>You are also just plain wrong about NEVER being able to remove
chemicals.
> >>Activated carbon does a very good job of it. Many other medicines like
> >>malachite greenm, formalin, and Maroxy break down over time whether or
not
> >>you use carbon. Others are metabolized by autotrophic bacteria or
plants
> >>in the tank. Even a hypothetical chemical not broken down or removed by
> >>carbon or resin (and I can't really think of one) eventually becomes
> >>infinitely diluted by water changes. I change 50% of the water a week
in
> >>my tanks. That means that after 10 weeks, anything I've added to a tank
> >>is diluted 1024-fold. After 6 months, it's diluted 6.7 MILLION-fold.
For
> >>all intents and purposes, it's gone.
> >>
> >>I am not an advocate of using chemicals in display fishtanks other than
> >>dechlorinator and plant fertilizers. You'll notice I generally suggest
> >>medicines in food, dabbed on the fish, or in quarantine. However, I
> >>wanted to correct some of your misconceptions about removing chemicals
> >>from fishtanks.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Elaine T __
> >>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >
> >
> >>bassett wrote:
> >>
> >>>If as you say , you use """FRESH """ water, from a Well or a tank, keep
> >>>all the food, and throw the rest of the Crap away. You don't need any
of
> >>>it.
> >>>Once you add any chemicial to water, you can NEVER remove it,
regardless
> >>>of water changes. and frankly all your doing it keeping the drug
> >>>companies happy.
> >>> bassett
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >

I have learnt from bitter experience the dangers of adding water from an LFS
to my tank water (Ich outbreak which I can't shift). I will never do this
again....

I do 10-20% water changes weekly on the two 50UK gall tanks, one 30gall tank
and one 10gall tank.....not on the same day I hasten to add. The 5gall tank
gets it more frequently - I over prepare water for the others and add it in.
The reason for this, as Elaine says, is that there is less margin for error
in the small tank. It doesn't add any extra work for me to do this. Any
hint of a problem in any of the tanks (like the Ick) and the changes become
greater and more frequent.

I do the water changes even though my water quality is good. The reason I do
this is quite simple.......I want to keep it good

Gill

[Rocco Moretti]

> Elaine T" > wrote in message
>
>>I change 50% of the water a week in
>>my tanks. That means that after 10 weeks, anything I've added to a tank
>>is diluted 1024-fold. After 6 months, it's diluted 6.7 MILLION-fold. For
>>all intents and purposes, it's gone.

Unless you believe in homeopathy...

bassett wrote:
> Hallo Elaine, To answer your questions,,
> It's very doubtful that you will find any wild caught tropical fish in
> Australian aquariums,

I have no clue what the rules are for Australian aquarists, but I am
under the understanding that there are a fair number of fish species
which haven't been bred in captivity, and others which are wild-caught
even though there is reports of tank-bred specimens.

> Why is it
> that people always assume, wrongly in most cases, that because something
> that has lived for many years, bred and propagated in the wild, is diseased.
> In the wild only the strong survive,

.... and the ones that aren't die of disease, releasing parasites and
bacteria into the water column.

BTW. You're fumbling your arguments - First you claim that trade fish
are not wild-caught, and then claim that wild-caught fish are healthy.
This doesn't do anything to prove claims that trade fish are healthy.

> Your argument about , removing all bacteria // chemicals from water, would
> be great news for the World Health Organisation, If it was valid.
>
> Have you any idea , just how complex, the issue is with regard to supplying
> "Clean water" Not to mention the costs involved.

There's a big difference between treating a 20 gallon aquarium, and
providing clean water for even a modest village of 2 thousand people,
let alone the 200 million people scale that WHO deals on.

> People will tell
> you, that small young baby fish will get a Fungus infection. That's
> rubbish, Fish in the wild don't (*) and think of the predators that like eating
> baby fish, and there's a bloody lot of them surviving for the aquarium
> trade.

The difference is that a pair of wild fish may have 100-1000 eggs in a
lifetime. Even if 98% of the eggs/babies die, you still have 2-20 adult
offspring from each pair. Anything more than 2/pair gets you population
growth, and Nature doesn't care about death rate.

However, most people don't want only 1 out of every 50 eggs to survive.
They want more like 45-50 out of every 50 to survive - hence the use of
antifungals/antibiotics. Nature doesn't care if every other clutch molds
- hobbyists do.

(*) I call baloney - please cite your source.

> What you don't seem to understand is we have clean chemical free water,
> and believe me when I tell you, It does make a difference.

I don't think anyone is claiming that high quality water is not a good
thing. What is being discussed is if additives are useful in certain
circumstances:

>>I am not an advocate of using chemicals in display fishtanks other than
>>dechlorinator and plant fertilizers. You'll notice I generally suggest
>>medicines in food, dabbed on the fish, or in quarantine. However, I
>>wanted to correct some of your misconceptions about removing chemicals
>>from fishtanks.

Just because you CAN run a tank without "chemicals", doesn't mean that
they don't have uses in certain situations. As an analogy, there are
plenty of people who have lived and lived well without access to human
antibiotics, painkillers, and cancer-killing chemotherapeutics. That
doesn't mean that there aren't situations where people live
better/longer because of them.

[Gill Passman]

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
>
> > Elaine T" > wrote in message
> >
> >>I change 50% of the water a week in
> >>my tanks. That means that after 10 weeks, anything I've added to a tank
> >>is diluted 1024-fold. After 6 months, it's diluted 6.7 MILLION-fold.
For
> >>all intents and purposes, it's gone.
>
> Unless you believe in homeopathy...
>
> bassett wrote:
> > Hallo Elaine, To answer your questions,,
> > It's very doubtful that you will find any wild caught tropical fish in
> > Australian aquariums,
>
> I have no clue what the rules are for Australian aquarists, but I am
> under the understanding that there are a fair number of fish species
> which haven't been bred in captivity, and others which are wild-caught
> even though there is reports of tank-bred specimens.
>
> > Why is it
> > that people always assume, wrongly in most cases, that because something
> > that has lived for many years, bred and propagated in the wild, is
diseased.
> > In the wild only the strong survive,
>
> ... and the ones that aren't die of disease, releasing parasites and
> bacteria into the water column.
>
> BTW. You're fumbling your arguments - First you claim that trade fish
> are not wild-caught, and then claim that wild-caught fish are healthy.
> This doesn't do anything to prove claims that trade fish are healthy.
>
> > Your argument about , removing all bacteria // chemicals from water,
would
> > be great news for the World Health Organisation, If it was valid.
> >
> > Have you any idea , just how complex, the issue is with regard to
supplying
> > "Clean water" Not to mention the costs involved.
>
> There's a big difference between treating a 20 gallon aquarium, and
> providing clean water for even a modest village of 2 thousand people,
> let alone the 200 million people scale that WHO deals on.
>
> > People will tell
> > you, that small young baby fish will get a Fungus infection. That's
> > rubbish, Fish in the wild don't (*) and think of the predators that like
eating
> > baby fish, and there's a bloody lot of them surviving for the aquarium
> > trade.
>
> The difference is that a pair of wild fish may have 100-1000 eggs in a
> lifetime. Even if 98% of the eggs/babies die, you still have 2-20 adult
> offspring from each pair. Anything more than 2/pair gets you population
> growth, and Nature doesn't care about death rate.
>
> However, most people don't want only 1 out of every 50 eggs to survive.
> They want more like 45-50 out of every 50 to survive - hence the use of
> antifungals/antibiotics. Nature doesn't care if every other clutch molds
> - hobbyists do.
>
> (*) I call baloney - please cite your source.
>
> > What you don't seem to understand is we have clean chemical free water,
> > and believe me when I tell you, It does make a difference.
>
> I don't think anyone is claiming that high quality water is not a good
> thing. What is being discussed is if additives are useful in certain
> circumstances:
>
> >>I am not an advocate of using chemicals in display fishtanks other than
> >>dechlorinator and plant fertilizers. You'll notice I generally suggest
> >>medicines in food, dabbed on the fish, or in quarantine. However, I
> >>wanted to correct some of your misconceptions about removing chemicals
> >>from fishtanks.
>
> Just because you CAN run a tank without "chemicals", doesn't mean that
> they don't have uses in certain situations. As an analogy, there are
> plenty of people who have lived and lived well without access to human
> antibiotics, painkillers, and cancer-killing chemotherapeutics. That
> doesn't mean that there aren't situations where people live
> better/longer because of them.

Before I fly off on one can you please explain the following and where you
stand on this:-

"As an analogy, there are
> plenty of people who have lived and lived well without access to human
> antibiotics, painkillers, and cancer-killing chemotherapeutics. That
> doesn't mean that there aren't situations where people live
> better/longer because of them."

My daughter would have died at 8 months old without antibiotics (there is
absolutely no question on this) - I am eternally grateful that such
treatments exist - she is 4 next Saturday....

I am in remission from cancer - HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST that we can live better
and longer without this type of treatment!!!"!! I also know of one person
who went through this who has a young family, it didn't work....I don't
think that she is living better and longer because of this - but I do think
she has a little more time....

Get a sense of perspective please

[Rocco Moretti]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
>
> Before I fly off on one can you please explain the following and where you
> stand on this:-
>
> "As an analogy, there are
>
>>plenty of people who have lived and lived well without access to human
>>antibiotics, painkillers, and cancer-killing chemotherapeutics. That
>>doesn't mean that there aren't situations where people live
>>better/longer because of them."
>
> HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST that we can live better
> and longer without this type of treatment!!!"!!

I apologize if I was unclear, but I totally agree with you. (The double
negative probably wasn't a good idea.)

>> That doesn't mean that there aren't situations where people live
>> better/longer because of them.

I intended it to mean something similar to:

>> There are *many* situations where people live better/longer
>> because of antibiotics/drugs.

As someone who contracted a severe case of pneumonia as a child, I
wouldn't be here if it weren't for antibiotics. -- I agree
wholeheartedly that life is much better with modern drugs.

[Gill Passman]

"Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Rocco Moretti" > wrote in message
> >
> > Before I fly off on one can you please explain the following and where
you
> > stand on this:-
> >
> > "As an analogy, there are
> >
> >>plenty of people who have lived and lived well without access to human
> >>antibiotics, painkillers, and cancer-killing chemotherapeutics. That
> >>doesn't mean that there aren't situations where people live
> >>better/longer because of them."
> >
> > HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST that we can live better
> > and longer without this type of treatment!!!"!!
>
> I apologize if I was unclear, but I totally agree with you. (The double
> negative probably wasn't a good idea.)
>
> >> That doesn't mean that there aren't situations where people live
> >> better/longer because of them.
>
> I intended it to mean something similar to:
>
> >> There are *many* situations where people live better/longer
> >> because of antibiotics/drugs.
>
> As someone who contracted a severe case of pneumonia as a child, I
> wouldn't be here if it weren't for antibiotics. -- I agree
> wholeheartedly that life is much better with modern drugs.

It's cool - this is why I said "before I fly off on one" - sorry I did
anyway....

[bassett]

Well thanks very much, If that's what I get for a civil non confrontery
post, Why do I bother. and you madam, have the blind effrontery to call ME
rude. How did I flame you, ??? I thought I was quite pleasant, Or perhaps
your someone who can't except comment for your actions.
*big smile*

Moving on, I was simply trying to demonstrate that once you add
chemicals to water , you can never extract it. fully.

But if I,m an idiot. Perhaps you would care to clarify this statement,
### it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical that belongs in a fry
tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone here would suggest
otherwise.####

Why would I use chloramine remover, when my water is Chemical Free.
But a lot of people do use antifungals/antibiotics and some Blue stuff that
I have forgotten the name off, in there Grower tanks.

Then there was this, ##And just how often does your friend do these
large-sounding water changes. ### and the answer is, when he remembers or
if he has water to spare, he's also on Tank water.

I checked with the State quarantine service and Australia is Flexibacter
free, So yes on the odd times I,ve bought plants, I did add the water that
came with them, to a tank, "Sorry about that" bassett must wash his roots
to remove non-existent wogs. happy now.

I also breed a few Guppies, to feed to my proper fish, Now you toddle off,
and return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit, But don't dish it out ,
if you can't take it..
Back to the kitchen with you woman.
Love bassett


"Elaine T" > wrote in message
>>
> You insist on making ridiculous statements and wild comparisons.
> Mosquito/human borne diseases that don't even live in the water have
> nothing to do with aquarium water quality. Mentioning WHO is ludicrous
> and you are simply trying to cloud the issue. There is an entirely
> different scale between a 10 gallon fishtank and public water supplies
> that you are failing to grasp.
>
> I disinfect living plants because they can carry bacteria like
> Flexibacter, some strains of which are very virulent. I suppose you
> naively trust the water the plants came out of in fish stores?
>
> As for the quality of my tankwater, you seem unable to understand that I
> only add chloramine remover and plant fertilizer to anything other than a
> quarantine tank with an obviously sick fish. The ONLY reason I would not
> drink my tank water is because I'm not sure how healthy iron plant
> fertilizers are for people. I regularly swallow a mouthful starting
> siphons and am none the worse for it.
>
> Again, you are failing to grasp issues of scale. Activated carbon and
> mixed bed resins are extremely effective and conductivities of as low as
> 18 MegaOhms/cm can be obtained with laboratory water purification units.
> Similarly, aquarists can use a combination of carbon and mixed bed resin
> like Chemi-Pure or Polyfilter to practically remove most undesirable
> compounds from aquarium water. Commercial drinking water facilities don't
> use carbon or resin because they are TOO BIG!!! They are also purifying
> sewage that is thousands of times more contaminated than fishtank water.
>
> Well, you're rude. In fact, you're so rude that I'm considering
> killfiling you. Before flaming me, did you check the URL in my sig and
> look at my healthy, lush tanks? And read that they're 2 and 5 gallons? I
> also have a 10 gallon guppy tank and that one is getting 30% twice a week
> to keep the water very clean for the growing young show guppies. There are
> no problems in my tanks, and since I've studied biochemistry for many
> years I probably have a far better grasp of what's happening in the water
> than you can possibly imagine. Large, frequent water changes provide a
> very stable environment for fish in small tanks and even in large ones.
>
> The concept is simple. For small tanks prone to fluctuations, do big
> water changes frequently to keep water parameters stable and similar to
> those of your tapwater. No swings in hardness, pH, or alkalinity. Low
> nitrates, phosphates, and DOC. Regular water testing demonstrates the
> stability of the water quality. This is the easiest way a beginner can
> keep one of those 10 gallon leader fishtanks stable. On larger tanks I
> change 25% to 30% a week because they're intrinsically more stable.
> Last time I checked, bicarb was a chemical and adds unnecessary sodium to
> the water. If you changed more water more often, you wouldn't need it. As
> for the angels, it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical that
> belongs in a fry tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone here
> would suggest otherwise. What's your point?
>
> And just how often does your friend do these large-sounding water changes?
> I hope it's at least weekly if he plans to avoid stunting his fish.
haven't been talking about clean, chemical free water. You've been
> talking about drinking water treatment, making wild and incorrect
> assumptions about my tanks, and lambasting me for changing water
> frequently. If you want to continue this discussion/flame war, please
> come back with water test parameters and hard facts rather than anecdotes.
> I shall return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit. ;-)
>

[Elaine T]

bassett wrote:
> Well thanks very much, If that's what I get for a civil non confrontery
> post, Why do I bother. and you madam, have the blind effrontery to call ME
> rude. How did I flame you, ??? I thought I was quite pleasant, Or perhaps
> your someone who can't except comment for your actions.
> *big smile*
>
> Moving on, I was simply trying to demonstrate that once you add
> chemicals to water , you can never extract it. fully.
>
> But if I,m an idiot. Perhaps you would care to clarify this statement,
> ### it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical that belongs in a fry
> tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone here would suggest
> otherwise.####
>
> Why would I use chloramine remover, when my water is Chemical Free.
> But a lot of people do use antifungals/antibiotics and some Blue stuff that
> I have forgotten the name off, in there Grower tanks.
>
> Then there was this, ##And just how often does your friend do these
> large-sounding water changes. ### and the answer is, when he remembers or
> if he has water to spare, he's also on Tank water.
>
> I checked with the State quarantine service and Australia is Flexibacter
> free, So yes on the odd times I,ve bought plants, I did add the water that
> came with them, to a tank, "Sorry about that" bassett must wash his roots
> to remove non-existent wogs. happy now.
>
> I also breed a few Guppies, to feed to my proper fish, Now you toddle off,
> and return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit, But don't dish it out ,
> if you can't take it..
> Back to the kitchen with you woman.
> Love bassett
>
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
>
>>You insist on making ridiculous statements and wild comparisons.
>>Mosquito/human borne diseases that don't even live in the water have
>>nothing to do with aquarium water quality. Mentioning WHO is ludicrous
>>and you are simply trying to cloud the issue. There is an entirely
>>different scale between a 10 gallon fishtank and public water supplies
>>that you are failing to grasp.
>>
>>I disinfect living plants because they can carry bacteria like
>>Flexibacter, some strains of which are very virulent. I suppose you
>>naively trust the water the plants came out of in fish stores?
>>
>>As for the quality of my tankwater, you seem unable to understand that I
>>only add chloramine remover and plant fertilizer to anything other than a
>>quarantine tank with an obviously sick fish. The ONLY reason I would not
>>drink my tank water is because I'm not sure how healthy iron plant
>>fertilizers are for people. I regularly swallow a mouthful starting
>>siphons and am none the worse for it.
>>
>>Again, you are failing to grasp issues of scale. Activated carbon and
>>mixed bed resins are extremely effective and conductivities of as low as
>>18 MegaOhms/cm can be obtained with laboratory water purification units.
>>Similarly, aquarists can use a combination of carbon and mixed bed resin
>>like Chemi-Pure or Polyfilter to practically remove most undesirable
>>compounds from aquarium water. Commercial drinking water facilities don't
>>use carbon or resin because they are TOO BIG!!! They are also purifying
>>sewage that is thousands of times more contaminated than fishtank water.
>>
>>Well, you're rude. In fact, you're so rude that I'm considering
>>killfiling you. Before flaming me, did you check the URL in my sig and
>>look at my healthy, lush tanks? And read that they're 2 and 5 gallons? I
>>also have a 10 gallon guppy tank and that one is getting 30% twice a week
>>to keep the water very clean for the growing young show guppies. There are
>>no problems in my tanks, and since I've studied biochemistry for many
>>years I probably have a far better grasp of what's happening in the water
>>than you can possibly imagine. Large, frequent water changes provide a
>>very stable environment for fish in small tanks and even in large ones.
>>
>>The concept is simple. For small tanks prone to fluctuations, do big
>>water changes frequently to keep water parameters stable and similar to
>>those of your tapwater. No swings in hardness, pH, or alkalinity. Low
>>nitrates, phosphates, and DOC. Regular water testing demonstrates the
>>stability of the water quality. This is the easiest way a beginner can
>>keep one of those 10 gallon leader fishtanks stable. On larger tanks I
>>change 25% to 30% a week because they're intrinsically more stable.
>>Last time I checked, bicarb was a chemical and adds unnecessary sodium to
>>the water. If you changed more water more often, you wouldn't need it. As
>>for the angels, it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical that
>>belongs in a fry tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone here
>>would suggest otherwise. What's your point?
>>
>>And just how often does your friend do these large-sounding water changes?
>>I hope it's at least weekly if he plans to avoid stunting his fish.
>
> haven't been talking about clean, chemical free water. You've been
>
>>talking about drinking water treatment, making wild and incorrect
>>assumptions about my tanks, and lambasting me for changing water
>>frequently. If you want to continue this discussion/flame war, please
>>come back with water test parameters and hard facts rather than anecdotes.
>>I shall return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit. ;-)
>>
>
>
>
>
PLONK

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

bassett wrote:
> Well thanks very much, If that's what I get for a civil non confrontery
> post, Why do I bother. and you madam, have the blind effrontery to call ME
> rude. How did I flame you, ??? I thought I was quite pleasant, Or perhaps
> your someone who can't except comment for your actions.
> *big smile*
>
That was a VERY confrontational post, as is this one. I'm amazed you
didn't expect to be called to be rude when you make a comment that you
know has to be prefaced with "I don't mean to be rude but...". It comes
with the turf.

> Moving on, I was simply trying to demonstrate that once you add
> chemicals to water , you can never extract it. fully.
>
Maybe I won't killfile you. You insist in making misleading statements
in public forums where beginners are trying to learn, and those need to
be corrected. Again, you can extract chemicals from fishtank water. In
fact, it's often harder to keep them in fishtank water than to get them
out. Again, your statement that chemicals cannot be removed FULLY is a
technically correct nitpick and is not relevant to fishkeeping. Water
purification on a small scale through dilution, carbon, and mixed bed
resin filtration is extremely effective and can reduce anything we would
add to a tank to undetectable levels.

The true issue here is using chemicals wisely, and only when necessary,
which you have not addressed. Your insistence on never using chemicals
is blinding you to the fact that beginners (and even advanced hobbyists)
get in trouble and sometimes the only way out is to use a chemical or
lose a treasured pet.

> But if I,m an idiot. Perhaps you would care to clarify this statement,
> ### it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical that belongs in a fry
> tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone here would suggest
> otherwise.####
>
> Why would I use chloramine remover, when my water is Chemical Free.
> But a lot of people do use antifungals/antibiotics and some Blue stuff that
> I have forgotten the name off, in there Grower tanks.

The blue stuff is methylene blue. You gotta know your enemy. And I
didn't bother to add "if your water has chloramines" (as much US and
European water does) because I thought you and other readers could
figure it out.
>
> Then there was this, ##And just how often does your friend do these
> large-sounding water changes. ### and the answer is, when he remembers or
> if he has water to spare, he's also on Tank water.
>
> I checked with the State quarantine service and Australia is Flexibacter
> free, So yes on the odd times I,ve bought plants, I did add the water that
> came with them, to a tank, "Sorry about that" bassett must wash his roots
> to remove non-existent wogs. happy now.

Funny. Some of your Aussie friends asked me how to heal Flexibacter
infected fish with acriflavin over in alt.aquaria. Someone is confused
but I don't know who. Also Flexibacter isn't the only thing that comes
in on plants, it was an example. MUST you take everything so literally?
It's very simple - keep nasties out of your tanks by quarantining fish
and either dipping or quarantining plants. And yeah, plenty of folks
don't and are fine but it's an unnecessary risk, particularly if there
are fish in the tanks you buy your plants from.
>
> I also breed a few Guppies, to feed to my proper fish, Now you toddle off,
> and return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit, But don't dish it out ,
> if you can't take it..
> Back to the kitchen with you woman.
> Love bassett

I will most certainly go to the kitchen. It's where my fishtanks are.
Can we be done with this now? I don't want a flame war. I want to keep
correct information in this NG so the newbies don't have to rely on all
the awful websites out there. That's what rec.aquaria has always been
about.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> bassett wrote:
> > Well thanks very much, If that's what I get for a civil non confrontery
> > post, Why do I bother. and you madam, have the blind effrontery to call
ME
> > rude. How did I flame you, ??? I thought I was quite pleasant, Or
perhaps
> > your someone who can't except comment for your actions.
> > *big smile*
> >
> That was a VERY confrontational post, as is this one. I'm amazed you
> didn't expect to be called to be rude when you make a comment that you
> know has to be prefaced with "I don't mean to be rude but...". It comes
> with the turf.
>
> > Moving on, I was simply trying to demonstrate that once you add
> > chemicals to water , you can never extract it. fully.
> >
> Maybe I won't killfile you. You insist in making misleading statements
> in public forums where beginners are trying to learn, and those need to
> be corrected. Again, you can extract chemicals from fishtank water. In
> fact, it's often harder to keep them in fishtank water than to get them
> out. Again, your statement that chemicals cannot be removed FULLY is a
> technically correct nitpick and is not relevant to fishkeeping. Water
> purification on a small scale through dilution, carbon, and mixed bed
> resin filtration is extremely effective and can reduce anything we would
> add to a tank to undetectable levels.
>
> The true issue here is using chemicals wisely, and only when necessary,
> which you have not addressed. Your insistence on never using chemicals
> is blinding you to the fact that beginners (and even advanced hobbyists)
> get in trouble and sometimes the only way out is to use a chemical or
> lose a treasured pet.
>
> > But if I,m an idiot. Perhaps you would care to clarify this statement,
> > ### it's blindingly obvious that the only chemical that belongs in a
fry
> > tank is chloramine remover. I don't think anyone here would suggest
> > otherwise.####
> >
> > Why would I use chloramine remover, when my water is Chemical Free.
> > But a lot of people do use antifungals/antibiotics and some Blue stuff
that
> > I have forgotten the name off, in there Grower tanks.
>
> The blue stuff is methylene blue. You gotta know your enemy. And I
> didn't bother to add "if your water has chloramines" (as much US and
> European water does) because I thought you and other readers could
> figure it out.
> >
> > Then there was this, ##And just how often does your friend do these
> > large-sounding water changes. ### and the answer is, when he remembers
or
> > if he has water to spare, he's also on Tank water.
> >
> > I checked with the State quarantine service and Australia is
Flexibacter
> > free, So yes on the odd times I,ve bought plants, I did add the water
that
> > came with them, to a tank, "Sorry about that" bassett must wash his
roots
> > to remove non-existent wogs. happy now.
>
> Funny. Some of your Aussie friends asked me how to heal Flexibacter
> infected fish with acriflavin over in alt.aquaria. Someone is confused
> but I don't know who. Also Flexibacter isn't the only thing that comes
> in on plants, it was an example. MUST you take everything so literally?
> It's very simple - keep nasties out of your tanks by quarantining fish
> and either dipping or quarantining plants. And yeah, plenty of folks
> don't and are fine but it's an unnecessary risk, particularly if there
> are fish in the tanks you buy your plants from.
> >
> > I also breed a few Guppies, to feed to my proper fish, Now you toddle
off,
> > and return with my flamethrower and asbestos suit, But don't dish it
out ,
> > if you can't take it..
> > Back to the kitchen with you woman.
> > Love bassett
>
> I will most certainly go to the kitchen. It's where my fishtanks are.
> Can we be done with this now? I don't want a flame war. I want to keep
> correct information in this NG so the newbies don't have to rely on all
> the awful websites out there. That's what rec.aquaria has always been
> about.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

If I had followed the rules of not adding water from my LFS I wouldn't be
into week 4 of an Ick problem that is resistant to treatement....with two
fish still affected and I have no idea what is going to happen to them.....

Without support from Elaine I would be a lot worse off than this certainly
mentally if not actually my fish physically....isn't that what this is all
about?

BTW something everyone should do before criticising or even indeed following
the advice from others is check out what they say, follow the advice they
give to other people by checking other posts.....someone said to me once
don't trust what the advice you get given from newsgroups or forums it might
be a 10 year old (apologies to all savie 10 year olds)....check it all out
first. I've always done this....and Elaine checks out....Now the same with
anyone who posts I might not always agree with her but it is my decision as
to what advice and who I chose to trust...and even if I trust them what I
chose to follow or not. The advice Elaine gives is good and based on
experience - just read past threads...also if she is unsure she will also
ask....

I thought one of the points of this newsgroup is when you get contentious
issues it is a matter of debate and making an educated decision based on the
information that you get and how you confirm that through further research.

Debate is healthy....insults are not

My personal guidelines:-

Be very wary adding anyone elses water, treat with chemicals very cautiously
and only if there is a real need - don't mess needlessly, make sure you
condition your water before adding it, and know the local conditions the
fish are kept in before adjusting any water parameters other than nitrite,
ammonia and nitrate. Do water changes on a regular basis - afterall how long
would you like to swim in your own excretia.....from what I understand
Elaine does not follow any other guidelines

I have a nice kitchen....don't go in there more than I have to...although
there is a very attractive betta sitting in the tank I managed to fit in
there....I think I might have done with my barefoot and pregnant days firmly
changed to the sink - but hey it's good to know someone believes that not
all of us are past it - lol