Persistent Ich - Update

[Gill Passman]

Firstly apologies for posting as a new topic but I'm having problems
following the old one - many thanks for all the updates....

Current situation is that one of the smaller Clowns has now been clear for
two days...the larger Clowns are still unaffected.

I'm keeping up the lights only on for brief periods - feeding and
observation (I can't check the spots with the lights off). High protein diet
is continuing...

Losses are still two Platys (which I don't believe was Ich) and one Neon
Tetra which I think was down to the oxygen level (and maybe the salt). I
also think one of the small Platy fry has gone - can only count two at the
moment and I thought I had seen three.

I'm encouraged by at long last having one of them clear so I am continuing
with the water changes, salt and high temps rather than going for the
alternative chemicals....but I'm keeping my options open.

Have had a number of observations:-

About 5 mins after the water change and a very cautious replenishment of the
salt I can see the spots flying off the Clowns

At bedtime I can see a reduction in the number of spots...however generally
by the morning some of them are back

The unaffected Clowns almost seem to be preening the affected Clowns...I
have seen them on more than one occassion nibbling at the spots in what
appears to be an attempt to shift them....

The three Clowns are now weakening but still feed but spend a lot of time
resting and flashing. Tonight the spots look less but as I already said this
might not be the case in the morning

The "Alpha" Clown (Itchy) has been sitting on the affected Clowns....but
moves off as soon as they wriggle. However, they usually sleep in one big
mess of Clown loaches....quite cute :-)

Plants are very "manky" but I can get new ones...algae is reducing and dying
with the salt and light reduction - result :-)
Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Firstly apologies for posting as a new topic but I'm having problems
> following the old one - many thanks for all the updates....
>
> Current situation is that one of the smaller Clowns has now been clear for
> two days...the larger Clowns are still unaffected.
>
> I'm keeping up the lights only on for brief periods - feeding and
> observation (I can't check the spots with the lights off). High protein
diet
> is continuing...
>
> Losses are still two Platys (which I don't believe was Ich) and one Neon
> Tetra which I think was down to the oxygen level (and maybe the salt). I
> also think one of the small Platy fry has gone - can only count two at the
> moment and I thought I had seen three.
>
> I'm encouraged by at long last having one of them clear so I am continuing
> with the water changes, salt and high temps rather than going for the
> alternative chemicals....but I'm keeping my options open.
>
> Have had a number of observations:-
>
> About 5 mins after the water change and a very cautious replenishment of
the
> salt I can see the spots flying off the Clowns
>
> At bedtime I can see a reduction in the number of spots...however
generally
> by the morning some of them are back
>
> The unaffected Clowns almost seem to be preening the affected Clowns...I
> have seen them on more than one occassion nibbling at the spots in what
> appears to be an attempt to shift them....
>
> The three Clowns are now weakening but still feed but spend a lot of time
> resting and flashing. Tonight the spots look less but as I already said
this
> might not be the case in the morning
>
> The "Alpha" Clown (Itchy) has been sitting on the affected Clowns....but
> moves off as soon as they wriggle. However, they usually sleep in one big
> mess of Clown loaches....quite cute :-)
>
> Plants are very "manky" but I can get new ones...algae is reducing and
dying
> with the salt and light reduction - result :-)
> Gill
>
>
Still the same situation. The three clown loaches still affected get
slightly better at night and then worse in the morning/daytime...wonder if
this is down to them sleeping on the gravel or that the salt treatment isn't
enough to finish the Ich.

I've dosed the tank tonight with the Protozin....

Fingers crossed

[[email protected]]

Hi,

Salt is very dangerous if the ich or any other ectoparasite reoccurs
quickly since the layer of mucus will be thinned or washed out
completely by the salt.

When you use salt, fish may look better. That does not mean fish was
treated, but look a kind of drunk. After some time, problem can come
back worse.

You need to have 3 containers if you do not want to have any hassle
with ich. Once you realize, you immediately remover your fish from
original tank and treat fish (and also your net) with formalin,
malachite green to kill some throphonts and theronts on the fish.
after treatment, again transfer to another tank and clean the treatment
tank.

heat the tank, treat fish with formalin and transfer to the previous
treatment tank. Repeat this procedure 2 more time. Altogether, it
will take three days.

You do not have to do to your original tank except heating up.
Theronts should find a host in 24 hrs. otherwise they will die. If
you do not want to take chance, without fish inside use a high dose
salt treatment and syphon most of the water before putting your fish.
Of course no formalin or any other chemical treatment in the original
tank since your biological system could be affected.

Regarding light, theoronts are known to be phototactics. That is, they
will find their host using shadows, where light is cut. Consider
yourself as a parasite when fish passes above you, you will know that
you are close to your host and swim towards. However, in closed
circulation systems I do not think this will help. Considere that one
protozoan can give 100-2000 theronts, before you even realize you will
have a soup of parasite. According to the papers, 80 holes on fish is
enough to kill fish resulting osmo regulation failure. Goosh if you
use salt, you are going to even give more harm.

Another aspect of light is that if you are using antibiotic treatment,
you have to cut light. Antibiotics like oxytetra or terramicin is
denatured with the light. The quality products even designed for
ectoparasites should also consider resulting secondary bacterial
infections. Therefore for an effective treatment cut the light off.

I hope these may clear up your experiences.

hogut



Gill Passman wrote:
> Firstly apologies for posting as a new topic but I'm having problems
> following the old one - many thanks for all the updates....
>
> Current situation is that one of the smaller Clowns has now been
clear for
> two days...the larger Clowns are still unaffected.
>
> I'm keeping up the lights only on for brief periods - feeding and
> observation (I can't check the spots with the lights off). High
protein diet
> is continuing...
>
> Losses are still two Platys (which I don't believe was Ich) and one
Neon
> Tetra which I think was down to the oxygen level (and maybe the
salt). I
> also think one of the small Platy fry has gone - can only count two
at the
> moment and I thought I had seen three.
>
> I'm encouraged by at long last having one of them clear so I am
continuing
> with the water changes, salt and high temps rather than going for the
> alternative chemicals....but I'm keeping my options open.
>
> Have had a number of observations:-
>
> About 5 mins after the water change and a very cautious replenishment
of the
> salt I can see the spots flying off the Clowns
>
> At bedtime I can see a reduction in the number of spots...however
generally
> by the morning some of them are back
>
> The unaffected Clowns almost seem to be preening the affected
Clowns...I
> have seen them on more than one occassion nibbling at the spots in
what
> appears to be an attempt to shift them....
>
> The three Clowns are now weakening but still feed but spend a lot of
time
> resting and flashing. Tonight the spots look less but as I already
said this
> might not be the case in the morning
>
> The "Alpha" Clown (Itchy) has been sitting on the affected
Clowns....but
> moves off as soon as they wriggle. However, they usually sleep in one
big
> mess of Clown loaches....quite cute :-)
>
> Plants are very "manky" but I can get new ones...algae is reducing
and dying
> with the salt and light reduction - result :-)
> Gill

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Salt is very dangerous if the ich or any other ectoparasite reoccurs
> quickly since the layer of mucus will be thinned or washed out
> completely by the salt.
>
> When you use salt, fish may look better. That does not mean fish was
> treated, but look a kind of drunk. After some time, problem can come
> back worse.

Both of my fish disease books say that salt causes ich to have problems
osmoregulating and helps kill the theronts. Also, salt stimulates
slimecoat production in fish, not thins it.

> You need to have 3 containers if you do not want to have any hassle
> with ich. Once you realize, you immediately remover your fish from
> original tank and treat fish (and also your net) with formalin,
> malachite green to kill some throphonts and theronts on the fish.
> after treatment, again transfer to another tank and clean the treatment
> tank.
>
> heat the tank, treat fish with formalin and transfer to the previous
> treatment tank. Repeat this procedure 2 more time. Altogether, it
> will take three days.

Clown loaches are notoriously sensitive to formalin/malachite remedies.
Acriflavin or potassium permanganate would be a better choice.
>
> You do not have to do to your original tank except heating up.
> Theronts should find a host in 24 hrs. otherwise they will die. If
> you do not want to take chance, without fish inside use a high dose
> salt treatment and syphon most of the water before putting your fish.
> Of course no formalin or any other chemical treatment in the original
> tank since your biological system could be affected.

You can't assume there are no tomites in the main tank. Heating the
main tank helps kill off any living theronts and those released from
tomites. As for treating the main tank if the loaches were removed,
it's probably unnecessary as Gill's other fish appear immune. BTW,
neither formalin nor malachite green has ever affected bofiltration or
plants in any of my tanks. High dose salt will harm plants.
>
> Regarding light, theoronts are known to be phototactics. That is, they
> will find their host using shadows, where light is cut. Consider
> yourself as a parasite when fish passes above you, you will know that
> you are close to your host and swim towards. However, in closed
> circulation systems I do not think this will help. Considere that one
> protozoan can give 100-2000 theronts, before you even realize you will
> have a soup of parasite. According to the papers, 80 holes on fish is
> enough to kill fish resulting osmo regulation failure. Goosh if you
> use salt, you are going to even give more harm.

Salt actually helps many fish like livebearers osmoregulate because less
water comes in through the skin and gills. It can dehydrate some
extreme sof****er fish like those from the Amazon region. Most fish
tolerate the tsp/gallon recommended for ich treatment quite well.
>
> Another aspect of light is that if you are using antibiotic treatment,
> you have to cut light. Antibiotics like oxytetra or terramicin is
> denatured with the light. The quality products even designed for
> ectoparasites should also consider resulting secondary bacterial
> infections. Therefore for an effective treatment cut the light off.

I've never seen a fish in good water get a secondary bacterial infection
from ich. That's probably partly because most ich treatments like
formalin are somewhat bacteriostatic by themselves. And you don't add
antibiotics to display tanks because many DO kill the biological filter.
So antibiotics go in a quarantine tank under lower light.
>
> I hope these may clear up your experiences.

You might enjoy reading
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

>
> hogut
>
>
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
>
>>Firstly apologies for posting as a new topic but I'm having problems
>>following the old one - many thanks for all the updates....
>>
>>Current situation is that one of the smaller Clowns has now been
>
> clear for
>
>>two days...the larger Clowns are still unaffected.
>>
>>I'm keeping up the lights only on for brief periods - feeding and
>>observation (I can't check the spots with the lights off). High
>
> protein diet
>
>>is continuing...
>>
>>Losses are still two Platys (which I don't believe was Ich) and one
>
> Neon
>
>>Tetra which I think was down to the oxygen level (and maybe the
>
> salt). I
>
>>also think one of the small Platy fry has gone - can only count two
>
> at the
>
>>moment and I thought I had seen three.
>>
>>I'm encouraged by at long last having one of them clear so I am
>
> continuing
>
>>with the water changes, salt and high temps rather than going for the
>>alternative chemicals....but I'm keeping my options open.
>>
>>Have had a number of observations:-
>>
>>About 5 mins after the water change and a very cautious replenishment
>
> of the
>
>>salt I can see the spots flying off the Clowns
>>
>>At bedtime I can see a reduction in the number of spots...however
>
> generally
>
>>by the morning some of them are back
>>
>>The unaffected Clowns almost seem to be preening the affected
>
> Clowns...I
>
>>have seen them on more than one occassion nibbling at the spots in
>
> what
>
>>appears to be an attempt to shift them....
>>
>>The three Clowns are now weakening but still feed but spend a lot of
>
> time
>
>>resting and flashing. Tonight the spots look less but as I already
>
> said this
>
>>might not be the case in the morning
>>
>>The "Alpha" Clown (Itchy) has been sitting on the affected
>
> Clowns....but
>
>>moves off as soon as they wriggle. However, they usually sleep in one
>
> big
>
>>mess of Clown loaches....quite cute :-)
>>
>>Plants are very "manky" but I can get new ones...algae is reducing
>
> and dying
>
>>with the salt and light reduction - result :-)
>>Gill
>
>


--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Ook]

Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)

[Gill Passman]

"Ook" > wrote in message ...
> Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
> reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)

I waited for a few hours to chill....the salt treatment cured one of my baby
clowns - that was better than I was hoping for.....he has been clear for a
few days now so I'm hopeful he has picked up the same immunity as the
others.

The other three are following their usual trend of better in the evening
worse in the morning....I am day two into the dosing with the Protozin - I
have not reduced the salt levels (which are still around half the
recommended - I have to balance the tetras and the clowns themselves with
their intolerance to salt). Tomorrow is another dose then wait til day 6. If
at any point the other fish appear stressed in any way by this I will
reavaluate.

Everyone is still looking healthy(apart from the spots), has good colour,
dancing and have a good appetite.....

I am still treating them in the main tank for a number of reasons which I
hope are reasonably sensible:-

1. If I move the 3 still effected Clowns this will cause them stress which
IME will just make things worse for them.

2. If I move the 3 clowns I still have to treat the tank anyway otherwise
even when they are OK they risk re-infestation when I put them back in. I
may as well do everything together.

3. Although it appears everyone else is immune (which I believe to be the
case), including the one Clown that is now spot free I can't actually risk
this.

4. Ich lives in the water, I cannot remove all potential hosts, I just don't
have the capacity to do so without risking more of my fish in the other
tanks. I have to rid it from the water as well as the fish...anything else
IMHO means I have the potential for another attack

Thanks Elaine....you saved me getting very wound up here....

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Ook" > wrote in message ...
>
>>Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
>>reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)
>
>
> I waited for a few hours to chill....the salt treatment cured one of my baby
> clowns - that was better than I was hoping for.....he has been clear for a
> few days now so I'm hopeful he has picked up the same immunity as the
> others.
>
> The other three are following their usual trend of better in the evening
> worse in the morning....I am day two into the dosing with the Protozin - I
> have not reduced the salt levels (which are still around half the
> recommended - I have to balance the tetras and the clowns themselves with
> their intolerance to salt). Tomorrow is another dose then wait til day 6. If
> at any point the other fish appear stressed in any way by this I will
> reavaluate.
>
> Everyone is still looking healthy(apart from the spots), has good colour,
> dancing and have a good appetite.....
>
> I am still treating them in the main tank for a number of reasons which I
> hope are reasonably sensible:-
>
> 1. If I move the 3 still effected Clowns this will cause them stress which
> IME will just make things worse for them.
>
> 2. If I move the 3 clowns I still have to treat the tank anyway otherwise
> even when they are OK they risk re-infestation when I put them back in. I
> may as well do everything together.
>
> 3. Although it appears everyone else is immune (which I believe to be the
> case), including the one Clown that is now spot free I can't actually risk
> this.
>
> 4. Ich lives in the water, I cannot remove all potential hosts, I just don't
> have the capacity to do so without risking more of my fish in the other
> tanks. I have to rid it from the water as well as the fish...anything else
> IMHO means I have the potential for another attack
>
> Thanks Elaine....you saved me getting very wound up here....
>
> Gill
>
>
You're welcome. You guys should have seen the tone of my first draft!
LOL! But when I read more carefully I realized hogut meant well and
probably hadn't read the earlier thread saying the only affected fish
were clown loaches.

Better in the evening and worse in the morning is so odd. Sounds almost
like a hangover from partying too hard all night. ;-) I wonder if
dissolved O2 is getting low overnight and stressing the loaches. I
can't remember - are you running an airstone?

Staying with treatment in the main tank is getting to be a hard call
with the ich so persistent and other fish unaffected. I understand your
concern about a fish with a silent infection shedding parasites, though.

Those poor clowns have got to clear up soon. Go, protozin, go!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Ook" > wrote in message ...
> >
> >>Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
> >>reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)
> >
> >
> > I waited for a few hours to chill....the salt treatment cured one of my
baby
> > clowns - that was better than I was hoping for.....he has been clear for
a
> > few days now so I'm hopeful he has picked up the same immunity as the
> > others.
> >
> > The other three are following their usual trend of better in the evening
> > worse in the morning....I am day two into the dosing with the Protozin -
I
> > have not reduced the salt levels (which are still around half the
> > recommended - I have to balance the tetras and the clowns themselves
with
> > their intolerance to salt). Tomorrow is another dose then wait til day
6. If
> > at any point the other fish appear stressed in any way by this I will
> > reavaluate.
> >
> > Everyone is still looking healthy(apart from the spots), has good
colour,
> > dancing and have a good appetite.....
> >
> > I am still treating them in the main tank for a number of reasons which
I
> > hope are reasonably sensible:-
> >
> > 1. If I move the 3 still effected Clowns this will cause them stress
which
> > IME will just make things worse for them.
> >
> > 2. If I move the 3 clowns I still have to treat the tank anyway
otherwise
> > even when they are OK they risk re-infestation when I put them back in.
I
> > may as well do everything together.
> >
> > 3. Although it appears everyone else is immune (which I believe to be
the
> > case), including the one Clown that is now spot free I can't actually
risk
> > this.
> >
> > 4. Ich lives in the water, I cannot remove all potential hosts, I just
don't
> > have the capacity to do so without risking more of my fish in the other
> > tanks. I have to rid it from the water as well as the fish...anything
else
> > IMHO means I have the potential for another attack
> >
> > Thanks Elaine....you saved me getting very wound up here....
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >
> You're welcome. You guys should have seen the tone of my first draft!
> LOL! But when I read more carefully I realized hogut meant well and
> probably hadn't read the earlier thread saying the only affected fish
> were clown loaches.
>
> Better in the evening and worse in the morning is so odd. Sounds almost
> like a hangover from partying too hard all night. ;-) I wonder if
> dissolved O2 is getting low overnight and stressing the loaches. I
> can't remember - are you running an airstone?
>
> Staying with treatment in the main tank is getting to be a hard call
> with the ich so persistent and other fish unaffected. I understand your
> concern about a fish with a silent infection shedding parasites, though.
>
> Those poor clowns have got to clear up soon. Go, protozin, go!
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

We are now into week 4.....good news is that it looks as if another one has
shifted his spots :-) so fingers crossed with him.

The other two still have spots but are lively and have good colour and
appetites. Did the 3rd dose of the protozin tonight so it's wait and see til
day 6.

Off to the LFS tomorrow to stock up on some salt in case the protozin
doesn't finish it off.

So to sum up one was cleared with salt and the other with protozin
(hopefully)....the other two I'm still waiting...

BTW as to it getting worse at night I'm putting this down to the fact that
they sleep in the gravel...I've had an air stone in there every since the
pump "accident" - the only other thing I could think of is that maybe the
cat is going in there at night but then he would have been doing that all of
the time anyway so it wouldn't be new.

Strangely enough the plants appear to be thriving with the salt - I have a
massive growth in the centre of the tank - most are uprooted a bit from the
gravel vacuuming but I'm being patient - I will sort them once the Ich
problem is gone as changing things could add additional stress....

I'll keep you posted

Gill

[Quatermass]

You tried WS3? This worked for me.

[Gill Passman]

"Quatermass" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You tried WS3? This worked for me.
>
Never come across this before. What is it? and what are the active
ingredients?

Thanks
Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > "Ook" > wrote in message ...
> > >
> > >>Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
> > >>reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > I waited for a few hours to chill....the salt treatment cured one of
my
> baby
> > > clowns - that was better than I was hoping for.....he has been clear
for
> a
> > > few days now so I'm hopeful he has picked up the same immunity as the
> > > others.
> > >
> > > The other three are following their usual trend of better in the
evening
> > > worse in the morning....I am day two into the dosing with the
Protozin -
> I
> > > have not reduced the salt levels (which are still around half the
> > > recommended - I have to balance the tetras and the clowns themselves
> with
> > > their intolerance to salt). Tomorrow is another dose then wait til day
> 6. If
> > > at any point the other fish appear stressed in any way by this I will
> > > reavaluate.
> > >
> > > Everyone is still looking healthy(apart from the spots), has good
> colour,
> > > dancing and have a good appetite.....
> > >
> > > I am still treating them in the main tank for a number of reasons
which
> I
> > > hope are reasonably sensible:-
> > >
> > > 1. If I move the 3 still effected Clowns this will cause them stress
> which
> > > IME will just make things worse for them.
> > >
> > > 2. If I move the 3 clowns I still have to treat the tank anyway
> otherwise
> > > even when they are OK they risk re-infestation when I put them back
in.
> I
> > > may as well do everything together.
> > >
> > > 3. Although it appears everyone else is immune (which I believe to be
> the
> > > case), including the one Clown that is now spot free I can't actually
> risk
> > > this.
> > >
> > > 4. Ich lives in the water, I cannot remove all potential hosts, I just
> don't
> > > have the capacity to do so without risking more of my fish in the
other
> > > tanks. I have to rid it from the water as well as the fish...anything
> else
> > > IMHO means I have the potential for another attack
> > >
> > > Thanks Elaine....you saved me getting very wound up here....
> > >
> > > Gill
> > >
> > >
> > You're welcome. You guys should have seen the tone of my first draft!
> > LOL! But when I read more carefully I realized hogut meant well and
> > probably hadn't read the earlier thread saying the only affected fish
> > were clown loaches.
> >
> > Better in the evening and worse in the morning is so odd. Sounds almost
> > like a hangover from partying too hard all night. ;-) I wonder if
> > dissolved O2 is getting low overnight and stressing the loaches. I
> > can't remember - are you running an airstone?
> >
> > Staying with treatment in the main tank is getting to be a hard call
> > with the ich so persistent and other fish unaffected. I understand your
> > concern about a fish with a silent infection shedding parasites, though.
> >
> > Those poor clowns have got to clear up soon. Go, protozin, go!
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
> > http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> We are now into week 4.....good news is that it looks as if another one
has
> shifted his spots :-) so fingers crossed with him.
>
> The other two still have spots but are lively and have good colour and
> appetites. Did the 3rd dose of the protozin tonight so it's wait and see
til
> day 6.
>
> Off to the LFS tomorrow to stock up on some salt in case the protozin
> doesn't finish it off.
>
> So to sum up one was cleared with salt and the other with protozin
> (hopefully)....the other two I'm still waiting...
>
> BTW as to it getting worse at night I'm putting this down to the fact that
> they sleep in the gravel...I've had an air stone in there every since the
> pump "accident" - the only other thing I could think of is that maybe the
> cat is going in there at night but then he would have been doing that all
of
> the time anyway so it wouldn't be new.
>
> Strangely enough the plants appear to be thriving with the salt - I have a
> massive growth in the centre of the tank - most are uprooted a bit from
the
> gravel vacuuming but I'm being patient - I will sort them once the Ich
> problem is gone as changing things could add additional stress....
>
> I'll keep you posted
>
> Gill
>
>
I think we are now day 24 (but I've lost count). Two of the small Clowns
have been free for a number of days....and I think (very cautiously) that
the other two are showing a reduction in spots. Tomorrow is the last dose of
the Protozin.

They are all very skittish tonight when I approach the tank....Itchy (the
Alpha fish) has taken up residence in Mr Pl*co's hollow. Mr Pl*co moved out
a few days ago and now is in a more open residence....which is good coz I
can see him now and target food a bit better. Scratchy is hovering around
the hollow. Neither of the big Clowns are participating in the cucumber
feast - although the small ones are. Scratchy occasionally comes and
watches over the small ones (he's doing that right now). They all fed fine
this morning....the big Clowns are totally spot free.

I got to thinking about reasons why the big Clowns are free of it and not
the little ones. The big Clowns came from the same LFS that some 5 months
later I got the infected water from - the other 4 came from the other LFS I
use that are Ick free.
The big Clowns had an Ick infestation shortly after I got them that the
other Clowns did not catch. Maybe there are different strains out there and
it is a question of building a resistance to each strain....I don't know but
it is really quite interesting...

If the next dose of Protozin doesn't fix it I'm a bit stuck. So I'm trying
to put together a new plan just in case. Spoke to LFS man who gives lots of
good advice (and has no noticeable Ick problems in his tanks) reckons that I
should give them a rest from treatment for a week or so....do big water
changes and gravel vacs...leave out the salt and chemicals. Afterall one big
stress factor is the treatment I'm putting them through - not to mention the
other fish. He is anti moving them, which I am too. The Clowns form the most
noticeable social group in the tank - moving the two I'm sure will stress
everyone.

I just want an end to this and then I can start working on other things
within my tanks.....

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>>>Gill Passman wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Ook" > wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
>>>>>reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I waited for a few hours to chill....the salt treatment cured one of
>
> my
>
>>baby
>>
>>>>clowns - that was better than I was hoping for.....he has been clear
>
> for
>
>>a
>>
>>>>few days now so I'm hopeful he has picked up the same immunity as the
>>>>others.
>>>>
>>>>The other three are following their usual trend of better in the
>
> evening
>
>>>>worse in the morning....I am day two into the dosing with the
>
> Protozin -
>
>>I
>>
>>>>have not reduced the salt levels (which are still around half the
>>>>recommended - I have to balance the tetras and the clowns themselves
>>
>>with
>>
>>>>their intolerance to salt). Tomorrow is another dose then wait til day
>>
>>6. If
>>
>>>>at any point the other fish appear stressed in any way by this I will
>>>>reavaluate.
>>>>
>>>>Everyone is still looking healthy(apart from the spots), has good
>>
>>colour,
>>
>>>>dancing and have a good appetite.....
>>>>
>>>>I am still treating them in the main tank for a number of reasons
>
> which
>
>>I
>>
>>>>hope are reasonably sensible:-
>>>>
>>>>1. If I move the 3 still effected Clowns this will cause them stress
>>
>>which
>>
>>>>IME will just make things worse for them.
>>>>
>>>>2. If I move the 3 clowns I still have to treat the tank anyway
>>
>>otherwise
>>
>>>>even when they are OK they risk re-infestation when I put them back
>
> in.
>
>>I
>>
>>>>may as well do everything together.
>>>>
>>>>3. Although it appears everyone else is immune (which I believe to be
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>case), including the one Clown that is now spot free I can't actually
>>
>>risk
>>
>>>>this.
>>>>
>>>>4. Ich lives in the water, I cannot remove all potential hosts, I just
>>
>>don't
>>
>>>>have the capacity to do so without risking more of my fish in the
>
> other
>
>>>>tanks. I have to rid it from the water as well as the fish...anything
>>
>>else
>>
>>>>IMHO means I have the potential for another attack
>>>>
>>>>Thanks Elaine....you saved me getting very wound up here....
>>>>
>>>>Gill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>You're welcome. You guys should have seen the tone of my first draft!
>>>LOL! But when I read more carefully I realized hogut meant well and
>>>probably hadn't read the earlier thread saying the only affected fish
>>>were clown loaches.
>>>
>>>Better in the evening and worse in the morning is so odd. Sounds almost
>>>like a hangover from partying too hard all night. ;-) I wonder if
>>>dissolved O2 is getting low overnight and stressing the loaches. I
>>>can't remember - are you running an airstone?
>>>
>>>Staying with treatment in the main tank is getting to be a hard call
>>>with the ich so persistent and other fish unaffected. I understand your
>>>concern about a fish with a silent infection shedding parasites, though.
>>>
>>>Those poor clowns have got to clear up soon. Go, protozin, go!
>>>
>>>--
>>>Elaine T __
>>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>>
>>We are now into week 4.....good news is that it looks as if another one
>
> has
>
>>shifted his spots :-) so fingers crossed with him.
>>
>>The other two still have spots but are lively and have good colour and
>>appetites. Did the 3rd dose of the protozin tonight so it's wait and see
>
> til
>
>>day 6.
>>
>>Off to the LFS tomorrow to stock up on some salt in case the protozin
>>doesn't finish it off.
>>
>>So to sum up one was cleared with salt and the other with protozin
>>(hopefully)....the other two I'm still waiting...
>>
>>BTW as to it getting worse at night I'm putting this down to the fact that
>>they sleep in the gravel...I've had an air stone in there every since the
>>pump "accident" - the only other thing I could think of is that maybe the
>>cat is going in there at night but then he would have been doing that all
>
> of
>
>>the time anyway so it wouldn't be new.
>>
>>Strangely enough the plants appear to be thriving with the salt - I have a
>>massive growth in the centre of the tank - most are uprooted a bit from
>
> the
>
>>gravel vacuuming but I'm being patient - I will sort them once the Ich
>>problem is gone as changing things could add additional stress....
>>
>>I'll keep you posted
>>
>>Gill
>>
>>
>
> I think we are now day 24 (but I've lost count). Two of the small Clowns
> have been free for a number of days....and I think (very cautiously) that
> the other two are showing a reduction in spots. Tomorrow is the last dose of
> the Protozin.
>
> They are all very skittish tonight when I approach the tank....Itchy (the
> Alpha fish) has taken up residence in Mr Pl*co's hollow. Mr Pl*co moved out
> a few days ago and now is in a more open residence....which is good coz I
> can see him now and target food a bit better. Scratchy is hovering around
> the hollow. Neither of the big Clowns are participating in the cucumber
> feast - although the small ones are. Scratchy occasionally comes and
> watches over the small ones (he's doing that right now). They all fed fine
> this morning....the big Clowns are totally spot free.
>
> I got to thinking about reasons why the big Clowns are free of it and not
> the little ones. The big Clowns came from the same LFS that some 5 months
> later I got the infected water from - the other 4 came from the other LFS I
> use that are Ick free.
> The big Clowns had an Ick infestation shortly after I got them that the
> other Clowns did not catch. Maybe there are different strains out there and
> it is a question of building a resistance to each strain....I don't know but
> it is really quite interesting...
>
> If the next dose of Protozin doesn't fix it I'm a bit stuck. So I'm trying
> to put together a new plan just in case. Spoke to LFS man who gives lots of
> good advice (and has no noticeable Ick problems in his tanks) reckons that I
> should give them a rest from treatment for a week or so....do big water
> changes and gravel vacs...leave out the salt and chemicals. Afterall one big
> stress factor is the treatment I'm putting them through - not to mention the
> other fish. He is anti moving them, which I am too. The Clowns form the most
> noticeable social group in the tank - moving the two I'm sure will stress
> everyone.
>
> I just want an end to this and then I can start working on other things
> within my tanks.....
>
> Gill
>
>
I think I'd keep the salt going but I think your LFS guy is right on a
rest from more added chemicals, water changes, and gravel vacs. I think
I'd drop the protozin from water changes and natural breakdown rather
than suddenly pulling it out with carbon - just in case it's still
helping. I'd keep the salt because changing salt levels is another
stressor, and the salt is known to be deleterious to the parasites.

I'm glad two have cleared up!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
m...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > .. .
> >
> >>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> >>
> >>>Gill Passman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>"Ook" > wrote in message ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
> >>>>>reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I waited for a few hours to chill....the salt treatment cured one of
> >
> > my
> >
> >>baby
> >>
> >>>>clowns - that was better than I was hoping for.....he has been clear
> >
> > for
> >
> >>a
> >>
> >>>>few days now so I'm hopeful he has picked up the same immunity as the
> >>>>others.
> >>>>
> >>>>The other three are following their usual trend of better in the
> >
> > evening
> >
> >>>>worse in the morning....I am day two into the dosing with the
> >
> > Protozin -
> >
> >>I
> >>
> >>>>have not reduced the salt levels (which are still around half the
> >>>>recommended - I have to balance the tetras and the clowns themselves
> >>
> >>with
> >>
> >>>>their intolerance to salt). Tomorrow is another dose then wait til day
> >>
> >>6. If
> >>
> >>>>at any point the other fish appear stressed in any way by this I will
> >>>>reavaluate.
> >>>>
> >>>>Everyone is still looking healthy(apart from the spots), has good
> >>
> >>colour,
> >>
> >>>>dancing and have a good appetite.....
> >>>>
> >>>>I am still treating them in the main tank for a number of reasons
> >
> > which
> >
> >>I
> >>
> >>>>hope are reasonably sensible:-
> >>>>
> >>>>1. If I move the 3 still effected Clowns this will cause them stress
> >>
> >>which
> >>
> >>>>IME will just make things worse for them.
> >>>>
> >>>>2. If I move the 3 clowns I still have to treat the tank anyway
> >>
> >>otherwise
> >>
> >>>>even when they are OK they risk re-infestation when I put them back
> >
> > in.
> >
> >>I
> >>
> >>>>may as well do everything together.
> >>>>
> >>>>3. Although it appears everyone else is immune (which I believe to be
> >>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>>case), including the one Clown that is now spot free I can't actually
> >>
> >>risk
> >>
> >>>>this.
> >>>>
> >>>>4. Ich lives in the water, I cannot remove all potential hosts, I just
> >>
> >>don't
> >>
> >>>>have the capacity to do so without risking more of my fish in the
> >
> > other
> >
> >>>>tanks. I have to rid it from the water as well as the fish...anything
> >>
> >>else
> >>
> >>>>IMHO means I have the potential for another attack
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks Elaine....you saved me getting very wound up here....
> >>>>
> >>>>Gill
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>You're welcome. You guys should have seen the tone of my first draft!
> >>>LOL! But when I read more carefully I realized hogut meant well and
> >>>probably hadn't read the earlier thread saying the only affected fish
> >>>were clown loaches.
> >>>
> >>>Better in the evening and worse in the morning is so odd. Sounds
almost
> >>>like a hangover from partying too hard all night. ;-) I wonder if
> >>>dissolved O2 is getting low overnight and stressing the loaches. I
> >>>can't remember - are you running an airstone?
> >>>
> >>>Staying with treatment in the main tank is getting to be a hard call
> >>>with the ich so persistent and other fish unaffected. I understand
your
> >>>concern about a fish with a silent infection shedding parasites,
though.
> >>>
> >>>Those poor clowns have got to clear up soon. Go, protozin, go!
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Elaine T __
> >>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> >>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> >>
> >>We are now into week 4.....good news is that it looks as if another one
> >
> > has
> >
> >>shifted his spots :-) so fingers crossed with him.
> >>
> >>The other two still have spots but are lively and have good colour and
> >>appetites. Did the 3rd dose of the protozin tonight so it's wait and see
> >
> > til
> >
> >>day 6.
> >>
> >>Off to the LFS tomorrow to stock up on some salt in case the protozin
> >>doesn't finish it off.
> >>
> >>So to sum up one was cleared with salt and the other with protozin
> >>(hopefully)....the other two I'm still waiting...
> >>
> >>BTW as to it getting worse at night I'm putting this down to the fact
that
> >>they sleep in the gravel...I've had an air stone in there every since
the
> >>pump "accident" - the only other thing I could think of is that maybe
the
> >>cat is going in there at night but then he would have been doing that
all
> >
> > of
> >
> >>the time anyway so it wouldn't be new.
> >>
> >>Strangely enough the plants appear to be thriving with the salt - I have
a
> >>massive growth in the centre of the tank - most are uprooted a bit from
> >
> > the
> >
> >>gravel vacuuming but I'm being patient - I will sort them once the Ich
> >>problem is gone as changing things could add additional stress....
> >>
> >>I'll keep you posted
> >>
> >>Gill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I think we are now day 24 (but I've lost count). Two of the small Clowns
> > have been free for a number of days....and I think (very cautiously)
that
> > the other two are showing a reduction in spots. Tomorrow is the last
dose of
> > the Protozin.
> >
> > They are all very skittish tonight when I approach the tank....Itchy
(the
> > Alpha fish) has taken up residence in Mr Pl*co's hollow. Mr Pl*co moved
out
> > a few days ago and now is in a more open residence....which is good coz
I
> > can see him now and target food a bit better. Scratchy is hovering
around
> > the hollow. Neither of the big Clowns are participating in the cucumber
> > feast - although the small ones are. Scratchy occasionally comes and
> > watches over the small ones (he's doing that right now). They all fed
fine
> > this morning....the big Clowns are totally spot free.
> >
> > I got to thinking about reasons why the big Clowns are free of it and
not
> > the little ones. The big Clowns came from the same LFS that some 5
months
> > later I got the infected water from - the other 4 came from the other
LFS I
> > use that are Ick free.
> > The big Clowns had an Ick infestation shortly after I got them that the
> > other Clowns did not catch. Maybe there are different strains out there
and
> > it is a question of building a resistance to each strain....I don't know
but
> > it is really quite interesting...
> >
> > If the next dose of Protozin doesn't fix it I'm a bit stuck. So I'm
trying
> > to put together a new plan just in case. Spoke to LFS man who gives lots
of
> > good advice (and has no noticeable Ick problems in his tanks) reckons
that I
> > should give them a rest from treatment for a week or so....do big water
> > changes and gravel vacs...leave out the salt and chemicals. Afterall one
big
> > stress factor is the treatment I'm putting them through - not to mention
the
> > other fish. He is anti moving them, which I am too. The Clowns form the
most
> > noticeable social group in the tank - moving the two I'm sure will
stress
> > everyone.
> >
> > I just want an end to this and then I can start working on other things
> > within my tanks.....
> >
> > Gill
> >
> >
> I think I'd keep the salt going but I think your LFS guy is right on a
> rest from more added chemicals, water changes, and gravel vacs. I think
> I'd drop the protozin from water changes and natural breakdown rather
> than suddenly pulling it out with carbon - just in case it's still
> helping. I'd keep the salt because changing salt levels is another
> stressor, and the salt is known to be deleterious to the parasites.
>
> I'm glad two have cleared up!
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Got a reduction in spots on the last two remaining Clowns but they still
aren't clear....so on to water changes and gravel vacs again. Once I'm sure
I've diluted the salt enough for comfort (for the fish) I'll start adding it
again. I'll keep a close eye on the fish to make sure nothing worsens....if
it does I'll need a rethink. Still determined not to move them - it will
stress them far more than any stress the other occupants have (3 very
pregnant Platys since the treatment started along with 2 rapidly growing
Platy fry - they obviously enjoy the high protein diet)

Still eating, still good colour and still dancing.....just a little bit
spotty still :-(

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Gill Passman wrote:
> > > "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > .. .
> > >
> > >>"Elaine T" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > >>
> > >>>Gill Passman wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>"Ook" > wrote in message
...
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>Nice job of restraint, Elaine. I saw that idiot's post and my first
> > >>>>>reaction was to post a rant in reply :-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I waited for a few hours to chill....the salt treatment cured one of
> > >
> > > my
> > >
> > >>baby
> > >>
> > >>>>clowns - that was better than I was hoping for.....he has been clear
> > >
> > > for
> > >
> > >>a
> > >>
> > >>>>few days now so I'm hopeful he has picked up the same immunity as
the
> > >>>>others.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>The other three are following their usual trend of better in the
> > >
> > > evening
> > >
> > >>>>worse in the morning....I am day two into the dosing with the
> > >
> > > Protozin -
> > >
> > >>I
> > >>
> > >>>>have not reduced the salt levels (which are still around half the
> > >>>>recommended - I have to balance the tetras and the clowns themselves
> > >>
> > >>with
> > >>
> > >>>>their intolerance to salt). Tomorrow is another dose then wait til
day
> > >>
> > >>6. If
> > >>
> > >>>>at any point the other fish appear stressed in any way by this I
will
> > >>>>reavaluate.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Everyone is still looking healthy(apart from the spots), has good
> > >>
> > >>colour,
> > >>
> > >>>>dancing and have a good appetite.....
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I am still treating them in the main tank for a number of reasons
> > >
> > > which
> > >
> > >>I
> > >>
> > >>>>hope are reasonably sensible:-
> > >>>>
> > >>>>1. If I move the 3 still effected Clowns this will cause them stress
> > >>
> > >>which
> > >>
> > >>>>IME will just make things worse for them.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>2. If I move the 3 clowns I still have to treat the tank anyway
> > >>
> > >>otherwise
> > >>
> > >>>>even when they are OK they risk re-infestation when I put them back
> > >
> > > in.
> > >
> > >>I
> > >>
> > >>>>may as well do everything together.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>3. Although it appears everyone else is immune (which I believe to
be
> > >>
> > >>the
> > >>
> > >>>>case), including the one Clown that is now spot free I can't
actually
> > >>
> > >>risk
> > >>
> > >>>>this.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>4. Ich lives in the water, I cannot remove all potential hosts, I
just
> > >>
> > >>don't
> > >>
> > >>>>have the capacity to do so without risking more of my fish in the
> > >
> > > other
> > >
> > >>>>tanks. I have to rid it from the water as well as the
fish...anything
> > >>
> > >>else
> > >>
> > >>>>IMHO means I have the potential for another attack
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Thanks Elaine....you saved me getting very wound up here....
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Gill
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>You're welcome. You guys should have seen the tone of my first
draft!
> > >>>LOL! But when I read more carefully I realized hogut meant well and
> > >>>probably hadn't read the earlier thread saying the only affected fish
> > >>>were clown loaches.
> > >>>
> > >>>Better in the evening and worse in the morning is so odd. Sounds
> almost
> > >>>like a hangover from partying too hard all night. ;-) I wonder if
> > >>>dissolved O2 is getting low overnight and stressing the loaches. I
> > >>>can't remember - are you running an airstone?
> > >>>
> > >>>Staying with treatment in the main tank is getting to be a hard call
> > >>>with the ich so persistent and other fish unaffected. I understand
> your
> > >>>concern about a fish with a silent infection shedding parasites,
> though.
> > >>>
> > >>>Those poor clowns have got to clear up soon. Go, protozin, go!
> > >>>
> > >>>--
> > >>>Elaine T __
> > >>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > >>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
> > >>
> > >>We are now into week 4.....good news is that it looks as if another
one
> > >
> > > has
> > >
> > >>shifted his spots :-) so fingers crossed with him.
> > >>
> > >>The other two still have spots but are lively and have good colour and
> > >>appetites. Did the 3rd dose of the protozin tonight so it's wait and
see
> > >
> > > til
> > >
> > >>day 6.
> > >>
> > >>Off to the LFS tomorrow to stock up on some salt in case the protozin
> > >>doesn't finish it off.
> > >>
> > >>So to sum up one was cleared with salt and the other with protozin
> > >>(hopefully)....the other two I'm still waiting...
> > >>
> > >>BTW as to it getting worse at night I'm putting this down to the fact
> that
> > >>they sleep in the gravel...I've had an air stone in there every since
> the
> > >>pump "accident" - the only other thing I could think of is that maybe
> the
> > >>cat is going in there at night but then he would have been doing that
> all
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > >>the time anyway so it wouldn't be new.
> > >>
> > >>Strangely enough the plants appear to be thriving with the salt - I
have
> a
> > >>massive growth in the centre of the tank - most are uprooted a bit
from
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > >>gravel vacuuming but I'm being patient - I will sort them once the Ich
> > >>problem is gone as changing things could add additional stress....
> > >>
> > >>I'll keep you posted
> > >>
> > >>Gill
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > I think we are now day 24 (but I've lost count). Two of the small
Clowns
> > > have been free for a number of days....and I think (very cautiously)
> that
> > > the other two are showing a reduction in spots. Tomorrow is the last
> dose of
> > > the Protozin.
> > >
> > > They are all very skittish tonight when I approach the tank....Itchy
> (the
> > > Alpha fish) has taken up residence in Mr Pl*co's hollow. Mr Pl*co
moved
> out
> > > a few days ago and now is in a more open residence....which is good
coz
> I
> > > can see him now and target food a bit better. Scratchy is hovering
> around
> > > the hollow. Neither of the big Clowns are participating in the
cucumber
> > > feast - although the small ones are. Scratchy occasionally comes and
> > > watches over the small ones (he's doing that right now). They all fed
> fine
> > > this morning....the big Clowns are totally spot free.
> > >
> > > I got to thinking about reasons why the big Clowns are free of it and
> not
> > > the little ones. The big Clowns came from the same LFS that some 5
> months
> > > later I got the infected water from - the other 4 came from the other
> LFS I
> > > use that are Ick free.
> > > The big Clowns had an Ick infestation shortly after I got them that
the
> > > other Clowns did not catch. Maybe there are different strains out
there
> and
> > > it is a question of building a resistance to each strain....I don't
know
> but
> > > it is really quite interesting...
> > >
> > > If the next dose of Protozin doesn't fix it I'm a bit stuck. So I'm
> trying
> > > to put together a new plan just in case. Spoke to LFS man who gives
lots
> of
> > > good advice (and has no noticeable Ick problems in his tanks) reckons
> that I
> > > should give them a rest from treatment for a week or so....do big
water
> > > changes and gravel vacs...leave out the salt and chemicals. Afterall
one
> big
> > > stress factor is the treatment I'm putting them through - not to
mention
> the
> > > other fish. He is anti moving them, which I am too. The Clowns form
the
> most
> > > noticeable social group in the tank - moving the two I'm sure will
> stress
> > > everyone.
> > >
> > > I just want an end to this and then I can start working on other
things
> > > within my tanks.....
> > >
> > > Gill
> > >
> > >
> > I think I'd keep the salt going but I think your LFS guy is right on a
> > rest from more added chemicals, water changes, and gravel vacs. I think
> > I'd drop the protozin from water changes and natural breakdown rather
> > than suddenly pulling it out with carbon - just in case it's still
> > helping. I'd keep the salt because changing salt levels is another
> > stressor, and the salt is known to be deleterious to the parasites.
> >
> > I'm glad two have cleared up!
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
> > http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> > rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
> Got a reduction in spots on the last two remaining Clowns but they still
> aren't clear....so on to water changes and gravel vacs again. Once I'm
sure
> I've diluted the salt enough for comfort (for the fish) I'll start adding
it
> again. I'll keep a close eye on the fish to make sure nothing
worsens....if
> it does I'll need a rethink. Still determined not to move them - it will
> stress them far more than any stress the other occupants have (3 very
> pregnant Platys since the treatment started along with 2 rapidly growing
> Platy fry - they obviously enjoy the high protein diet)
>
> Still eating, still good colour and still dancing.....just a little bit
> spotty still :-(
>
> Gill
>
>

Everyone is now spot free :-) - I am just so happy about this....

It's been a long haul - 4 weeks tomorrow but they are through it at
last....I just can't believe that it is over.....

I haven't done a water change to get rid of the salt and the protozin
yet...I'm going to leave it a couple of days then sort the tank
again....I've got plants floating where I don't want them, plants that have
just grown so massive during the treatment they need relocating....and I
haven't dared get the test kit out for a couple of weeks....hopefully
normality can now reign

I've learnt an awful lot during this 4 week period.....Ick can be easily
treated but not always....and when it is not easy it is a lot of hard work.
Maybe mine came through it, I believe, because I had had them quite a while
and generally they were strong and in good health....and it was just that
damned shop water coupled with a stressful situation....never, ever again
does anyone elses water get into my tanks.....

I don't actually know what got rid of it the end but I think it was a
combination of originally healthy fish, good diet, persistance, water
changes and very, very much good luck

I'm just over the moon like you wouldn't believe.....

Gill

[Elaine T]

Gill Passman wrote:

> Everyone is now spot free :-) - I am just so happy about this....
>
> It's been a long haul - 4 weeks tomorrow but they are through it at
> last....I just can't believe that it is over.....
>
> I haven't done a water change to get rid of the salt and the protozin
> yet...I'm going to leave it a couple of days then sort the tank
> again....I've got plants floating where I don't want them, plants that have
> just grown so massive during the treatment they need relocating....and I
> haven't dared get the test kit out for a couple of weeks....hopefully
> normality can now reign
>
> I've learnt an awful lot during this 4 week period.....Ick can be easily
> treated but not always....and when it is not easy it is a lot of hard work.
> Maybe mine came through it, I believe, because I had had them quite a while
> and generally they were strong and in good health....and it was just that
> damned shop water coupled with a stressful situation....never, ever again
> does anyone elses water get into my tanks.....
>
> I don't actually know what got rid of it the end but I think it was a
> combination of originally healthy fish, good diet, persistance, water
> changes and very, very much good luck
>
> I'm just over the moon like you wouldn't believe.....
>
> Gill
>

That's wonderful news! I bet your kids are excited to see the loaches
too. You're now the official NG ich guru. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Nikki Casali]

Gill Passman wrote:
>
> Everyone is now spot free :-) - I am just so happy about this....

Woohoo! And I bet the clowns don't know what all the fuss is about.
You've proven that it can be done. But it takes lots of patience and
tenacity. You may have given me enough confidence now to think about
getting some clowns. There ought to be clowns.

Nikki

[Gill Passman]

"Nikki Casali" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> >
> > Everyone is now spot free :-) - I am just so happy about this....
>
> Woohoo! And I bet the clowns don't know what all the fuss is about.
> You've proven that it can be done. But it takes lots of patience and
> tenacity. You may have given me enough confidence now to think about
> getting some clowns. There ought to be clowns.
>
> Nikki
>

Actually, I think where I have been lucky is that I was dealing with fish
already in an established tank - I introduced the infestation through
purchasing fish that were already infected....and adding in the water...

If we buy fish that already are infested with Ich and then add the extra
stress of introducing them into a new tank we are already on to a loser....I
was lucky....my fish were healthy when they started out on this horrible
venture....this is the reason I'm sure that they eventually fought it
off....

That being said as far as I am concerned the rewards of keeping my Clowns
far outweigh any problems I have had with them....the absolute joy of seeing
them dance and doing their synchronised swimming is so fantastic...them
jumping out of the water for the bloodworm from my hands, the complete
chaotic feeding when I drop in the cucumber.......and the way they all sleep
together in an absolute heap on the bottom of the tank....priceless....

Lose my clowns.....I'd never cope with it....go ahead and buy clowns....the
rewards far outweigh any trauma I've been through

[[email protected]]

Hi Elaine,

I will try to pull out info on salt. We use salt in cold water fish
only in the winter. late spring and summer we avoid. No book can
convince me salt simulates mucus production. But after you wash away
mucus, fish may try to increase mucus, that does not mean salt
simulated. Many times I caugt aver 0.5 kg trout by bare hands easily.


I do not have much experience with mentioned fish species. Amount of
drug is not important, but duration of application.
So you can decrease the level of drug and increase time, without having
toxicity problems. Postassium permanganate is also an alternative
since does not damage plants and BO filtration.

One another subject after heating for three days, development time of
the tomites also shortens. Thus after three days there should not be
any tomite left in the original tank, unless you recontaminate with the
net or bucket. I mean after 23 C, duration of the parasite cycle is
less than three days.
Tomites are only one 4 forms.

I am about to publish a paper on ich on trout. So pulled out so many
papers on ICH. They are mentioning about different races of ich,
therefore I was following some of observations.

many thanks
hamdi

[[email protected]]

Hi Elaine,

I will try to pull out info on salt. We use salt in cold water fish
only in the winter. late spring and summer we avoid. No book can
convince me salt simulates mucus production. But after you wash away
mucus, fish may try to increase mucus, that does not mean salt
simulated. Many times I caugt aver 0.5 kg trout by bare hands easily.


I do not have much experience with mentioned fish species. Amount of
drug is not important, but duration of application.
So you can decrease the level of drug and increase time, without having
toxicity problems. Postassium permanganate is also an alternative
since does not damage plants and BO filtration.

One another subject after heating for three days, development time of
the tomites also shortens. Thus after three days there should not be
any tomite left in the original tank, unless you recontaminate with the
net or bucket. I mean after 23 C, duration of the parasite cycle is
less than three days.
Tomites are only one 4 forms.

I am about to publish a paper on ich on trout. So pulled out so many
papers on ICH. They are mentioning about different races of ich,
therefore I was following some of observations.

many thanks
hamdi

[[email protected]]

who is the idiot?
you want to see my publication list on fish diseases?

What are you trying to do here?

if salt is the case, go ahead and use salt for yourself and get
some treatment, you really need it.

hamdi

[[email protected]]

Hi

if you are on the 24th day, that means something is really
wrong. Look at the damn books, and look at the temperature and
corresponding parasite cycles. any ich infection with an simple
treatment should not take more than 7 days. By the way, if you did
nothing and change water ich woul have been gone by itself. with the
wrong management you unintentionally breed resistant forms..

I guess this is my last posting and observation both into this subject
and this group.

by all, and have fun with numerous ich messages.
hamdi

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> Hi Elaine,
>
> I will try to pull out info on salt. We use salt in cold water fish
> only in the winter. late spring and summer we avoid. No book can
> convince me salt simulates mucus production. But after you wash away
> mucus, fish may try to increase mucus, that does not mean salt
> simulated. Many times I caugt aver 0.5 kg trout by bare hands easily.
>
My reference for salt stimulating slimecoat production is the "Manual of
Fish Health" from Tetra Press.
>
> I do not have much experience with mentioned fish species. Amount of
> drug is not important, but duration of application.
> So you can decrease the level of drug and increase time, without having
> toxicity problems. Postassium permanganate is also an alternative
> since does not damage plants and BO filtration.

I have read about permanganate for ich treatment in aquaculture. Its
use is rare in the aquarium hobby because it isn't as easy to use as
formalin/malachite. Of course malachite green or copper can't be used
on fish grown for human consumption. Aquaculture is reallyquite
different from home aquaria.

Unfortunately, malachite green can be quite toxic to tetras, scaleless
catfish, and loaches. Formalin alone isn't as effective so aquarists
turn to salt or rarely copper. Raised temperatures alone are frequently
enough to handle an ich outbreak but didn't work in Gill's case.
>
> One another subject after heating for three days, development time of
> the tomites also shortens. Thus after three days there should not be
> any tomite left in the original tank, unless you recontaminate with the
> net or bucket. I mean after 23 C, duration of the parasite cycle is
> less than three days.
> Tomites are only one 4 forms.

Why not go all the way and raise the temperature to 86F where most
strains can't reproduce? Many hobbyists do this and treat ich without
any further intervention. That's what Gill tried first.
>
> I am about to publish a paper on ich on trout. So pulled out so many
> papers on ICH. They are mentioning about different races of ich,
> therefore I was following some of observations.

From my reading - probably not as extensive as yours - ich on
aquacultured trout is somewhat different to handle than ich in small
home aquaria on tropicals. The trout require different temperatures and
water conditions and medications that can be used are severely restricted.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi
>
> if you are on the 24th day, that means something is really
> wrong. Look at the damn books, and look at the temperature and
> corresponding parasite cycles. any ich infection with an simple
> treatment should not take more than 7 days. By the way, if you did
> nothing and change water ich woul have been gone by itself. with the
> wrong management you unintentionally breed resistant forms..
>
> I guess this is my last posting and observation both into this subject
> and this group.
>
> by all, and have fun with numerous ich messages.
> hamdi
>

Hi Hamdi
I'm sorry that you will not be posting again....and would like to thank you
for having taken the time out to respond to my posts.

I totally agree with you that 24 days to treat an Ich outbreak is
unacceptable but in this case I did everything that should have got rid of
it. The only other time that I had it (when I first purchased my two big
Clown Loaches) it went in less than 3 days. I did nothing differently
originally - it was only when it didn't go that I started trying other
things. Temp has been up high ever since I first discovered it and water
changes have been daily right up until adding the Protozin when I did not
want to dilute it.

From the research that I have done, both last time and this, I understand
that the approach in a commercial environment can be very different to how
those of us tackle this in a "pet" environment. The treatment by necessity
has to be more drastic because of the financial implications of failure. I'd
be really interested to read your paper when you have written it. IME it is
ignorance that kills fish so the more information I can get the better....

The whole salt debate is also quite interesting.....and something I've not
looked into in any depth before. This is the first time that I have ever
added salt into my tanks....afterall the fish that I keep are "freshwater".
Now, I know from my research, conversations I've held and indeed this NG
that salt is seen as a treatment for Ich....think I might try and find out
why and how this works.

Thanks again for bothering to post

Gill