Cycling question

[m]

My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?
Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

-m

[Billy]

"m" > wrote in message
...
> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's
> not
> planning on using any substrate.
> My question is this: is substrate important other than for
> decoration?
> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>
> -m

Yes. Bare-bottom tanks are very common for commecial breeders, as
well as for use as a quarantine tank. As long as there is an
environment for the nitrifying bacteria (filter media) It will be
fine. As a display tank, I don't like the look, myself, but it's very
easy to keep the tank clean, hence the popularity among breeders.



--
Billy
----
Beta-Tester
WinExtra
Home Socrates
http://www.winextra.com
news://news.winextra.com
About our newsgroups:
http://www.winextra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=36

[NetMax]

"m" > wrote in message
...
> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
> planning on using any substrate.
> My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?

Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces of
larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of surface
area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't be
concerned about not using any substrate.

> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter media
from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.

> -m

--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"m" > wrote in message
...
>> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
>> planning on using any substrate.
>> My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?
>
>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces of
>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of surface
>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't be
>concerned about not using any substrate.
>
>> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>
>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter media
>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>
>> -m

Netmax,

I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
hold the bacteria.

I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.

Any thoughts?

dick

[Elaine T]

Dick wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"m" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
>>>planning on using any substrate.
>>>My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?
>>
>>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces of
>>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
>>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of surface
>>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
>>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
>>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
>>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
>>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't be
>>concerned about not using any substrate.
>>
>>
>>>Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>>
>>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter media
>
>>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>
>>>-m
>
>
> Netmax,
>
> I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
> tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
> It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
> refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
> hold the bacteria.
>
> I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
> if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
> put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
> hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> dick

I'm not NetMax, but I love air-driven sponge filters in bare-bottomed
hospital tanks. You never replace filter media but only rinse it
occasionally so the water is always clear. Sponge filters also have a
fantastic biological capacity because of the large surface area and slow
flow so they handle situations like growing out fry or your blind fish
where you put more food in a tank than normal.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"m" > wrote in message
...
>>> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
>>> planning on using any substrate.
>>> My question is this: is substrate important other than for
>>> decoration?
>>
>>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces
>>of
>>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
>>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
>>surface
>>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
>>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
>>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
>>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
>>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't
>>be
>>concerned about not using any substrate.
>>
>>> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>>
>>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
>>media
>>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>>
>>> -m
>
> Netmax,
>
> I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
> tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
> It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
> refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
> hold the bacteria.
>
> I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
> if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
> put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
> hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> dick

Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation, quarantine
etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the sponges
back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of sponge
filters for small tanks like this.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"m" > wrote in message
...
>>>> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
>>>> planning on using any substrate.
>>>> My question is this: is substrate important other than for
>>>> decoration?
>>>
>>>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces
>>>of
>>>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
>>>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
>>>surface
>>>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
>>>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
>>>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
>>>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
>>>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't
>>>be
>>>concerned about not using any substrate.
>>>
>>>> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>>>
>>>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
>>>media
>>>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>>>
>>>> -m
>>
>> Netmax,
>>
>> I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
>> tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
>> It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
>> refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
>> hold the bacteria.
>>
>> I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
>> if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
>> put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
>> hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> dick
>
>Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation, quarantine
>etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the sponges
>back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of sponge
>filters for small tanks like this.


Yesterday, I swapped cartridges between the hospital tank and another
10 gal tank. This morning the water is clear. I think the lack of
gravel keeps the tank from staying cycled. The hospital tank is the
only one I vacuum the bottom to keep the loose debris down. It is
planted with the plants kept on the bottom by lead weights.

I also wonder about swapping the cartridges from the hospital tank to
the clean tank. No problem bringing the clean tank cartridge to the
hospital tank. So, cannot the hospital tank cartridge be cleaned with
hot water and make it safe? I don't often have fish problems that
require toxic treatment, mostly old age related or physical damage.
Of the 3 currently in the tank, only 1 needs to be there. She is
mostly blind and has a twisted spine making it hard for her to compete
in a large tank.

dick

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"m" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's
>>>>> not
>>>>> planning on using any substrate.
>>>>> My question is this: is substrate important other than for
>>>>> decoration?
>>>>
>>>>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the
>>>>pieces
>>>>of
>>>>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
>>>>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
>>>>surface
>>>>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as
>>>>the
>>>>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
>>>>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures,
>>>>sterilization
>>>>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering
>>>>effect.
>>>>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't
>>>>be
>>>>concerned about not using any substrate.
>>>>
>>>>> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
>>>>media
>>>>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>>>>
>>>>> -m
>>>
>>> Netmax,
>>>
>>> I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
>>> tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
>>> It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
>>> refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
>>> hold the bacteria.
>>>
>>> I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you
>>> think
>>> if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
>>> put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
>>> hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>> dick
>>
>>Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation, quarantine
>>etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the sponges
>>back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of
>>sponge
>>filters for small tanks like this.
>
>
> Yesterday, I swapped cartridges between the hospital tank and another
> 10 gal tank. This morning the water is clear. I think the lack of
> gravel keeps the tank from staying cycled. The hospital tank is the
> only one I vacuum the bottom to keep the loose debris down. It is
> planted with the plants kept on the bottom by lead weights.
>
> I also wonder about swapping the cartridges from the hospital tank to
> the clean tank. No problem bringing the clean tank cartridge to the
> hospital tank. So, cannot the hospital tank cartridge be cleaned with
> hot water and make it safe? I don't often have fish problems that
> require toxic treatment, mostly old age related or physical damage.
> Of the 3 currently in the tank, only 1 needs to be there. She is
> mostly blind and has a twisted spine making it hard for her to compete
> in a large tank.
>
> dick

Regarding the use of sponges which 'lack confidence' for the lack of a
better term, anything which came in contact with questionable organisms,
the correct procedure to follow for sterilization varies according to who
is giving the instructions. There is the technical version which is
something like 85C for 20 minutes (someone please supply exact values),
others say boil for a couple of minutes, others use sterilizing
chemicals.

I can only tell you what I do myself, and I make no recommendation of it.
First I rinse in water which is not so hot that I can't have my hands in
it. Then I squeeze out the water, and I let it dry out. I have a few
extra sponges from unused filters. These questionable sponges get left
on the tank cover (in the sunlight) or thrown into a box to dry out. My
thinking is that the rinsing removes most of the stuff, the water
temperature kills more stuff, and dehydration takes care of anything left
over. It might not be 100% effective, but it's probably the most
effective you can get for the least amount of chemical-free effort ;~).
It's also similar to what I do for gravel, tanks and accessories (hot
rinse and dehydration).

If the sponge comes from a really sick tank, then I just throw it in the
garbage. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:09:02 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"m" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> planning on using any substrate.
>>>>>> My question is this: is substrate important other than for
>>>>>> decoration?
>>>>>
>>>>>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the
>>>>>pieces
>>>>>of
>>>>>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
>>>>>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
>>>>>surface
>>>>>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as
>>>>>the
>>>>>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
>>>>>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures,
>>>>>sterilization
>>>>>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering
>>>>>effect.
>>>>>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't
>>>>>be
>>>>>concerned about not using any substrate.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
>>>>>media
>>>>>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>>>>>
>>>>>> -m
>>>>
>>>> Netmax,
>>>>
>>>> I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
>>>> tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
>>>> It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
>>>> refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
>>>> hold the bacteria.
>>>>
>>>> I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you
>>>> think
>>>> if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
>>>> put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
>>>> hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> dick
>>>
>>>Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation, quarantine
>>>etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the sponges
>>>back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of
>>>sponge
>>>filters for small tanks like this.
>>
>>
>> Yesterday, I swapped cartridges between the hospital tank and another
>> 10 gal tank. This morning the water is clear. I think the lack of
>> gravel keeps the tank from staying cycled. The hospital tank is the
>> only one I vacuum the bottom to keep the loose debris down. It is
>> planted with the plants kept on the bottom by lead weights.
>>
>> I also wonder about swapping the cartridges from the hospital tank to
>> the clean tank. No problem bringing the clean tank cartridge to the
>> hospital tank. So, cannot the hospital tank cartridge be cleaned with
>> hot water and make it safe? I don't often have fish problems that
>> require toxic treatment, mostly old age related or physical damage.
>> Of the 3 currently in the tank, only 1 needs to be there. She is
>> mostly blind and has a twisted spine making it hard for her to compete
>> in a large tank.
>>
>> dick
>
>Regarding the use of sponges which 'lack confidence' for the lack of a
>better term, anything which came in contact with questionable organisms,
>the correct procedure to follow for sterilization varies according to who
>is giving the instructions. There is the technical version which is
>something like 85C for 20 minutes (someone please supply exact values),
>others say boil for a couple of minutes, others use sterilizing
>chemicals.
>
>I can only tell you what I do myself, and I make no recommendation of it.
>First I rinse in water which is not so hot that I can't have my hands in
>it. Then I squeeze out the water, and I let it dry out. I have a few
>extra sponges from unused filters. These questionable sponges get left
>on the tank cover (in the sunlight) or thrown into a box to dry out. My
>thinking is that the rinsing removes most of the stuff, the water
>temperature kills more stuff, and dehydration takes care of anything left
>over. It might not be 100% effective, but it's probably the most
>effective you can get for the least amount of chemical-free effort ;~).
>It's also similar to what I do for gravel, tanks and accessories (hot
>rinse and dehydration).
>
>If the sponge comes from a really sick tank, then I just throw it in the
>garbage. hth

I hope my hospital tank remains a sanctuary, rather than a "sick"
tank, but I don't know why I would bother cleaning a filter sleeve
from a Whisper Jr. I have a supply of filter sleeves on hand. The
wise thing, as you suggest, is to replace the sleeve.

dick

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:09:02 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"m" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> planning on using any substrate.
>>>>>>> My question is this: is substrate important other than for
>>>>>>> decoration?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the
>>>>>>pieces
>>>>>>of
>>>>>>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the
>>>>>>case
>>>>>>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
>>>>>>surface
>>>>>>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures,
>>>>>>sterilization
>>>>>>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering
>>>>>>effect.
>>>>>>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I
>>>>>>wouldn't
>>>>>>be
>>>>>>concerned about not using any substrate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
>>>>>>media
>>>>>>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -m
>>>>>
>>>>> Netmax,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My
>>>>> hospital
>>>>> tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy
>>>>> water.
>>>>> It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
>>>>> refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
>>>>> hold the bacteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you
>>>>> think
>>>>> if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days,
>>>>> then
>>>>> put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
>>>>> hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> dick
>>>>
>>>>Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation,
>>>>quarantine
>>>>etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the
>>>>sponges
>>>>back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of
>>>>sponge
>>>>filters for small tanks like this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yesterday, I swapped cartridges between the hospital tank and another
>>> 10 gal tank. This morning the water is clear. I think the lack of
>>> gravel keeps the tank from staying cycled. The hospital tank is the
>>> only one I vacuum the bottom to keep the loose debris down. It is
>>> planted with the plants kept on the bottom by lead weights.
>>>
>>> I also wonder about swapping the cartridges from the hospital tank to
>>> the clean tank. No problem bringing the clean tank cartridge to the
>>> hospital tank. So, cannot the hospital tank cartridge be cleaned
>>> with
>>> hot water and make it safe? I don't often have fish problems that
>>> require toxic treatment, mostly old age related or physical damage.
>>> Of the 3 currently in the tank, only 1 needs to be there. She is
>>> mostly blind and has a twisted spine making it hard for her to
>>> compete
>>> in a large tank.
>>>
>>> dick
>>
>>Regarding the use of sponges which 'lack confidence' for the lack of a
>>better term, anything which came in contact with questionable
>>organisms,
>>the correct procedure to follow for sterilization varies according to
>>who
>>is giving the instructions. There is the technical version which is
>>something like 85C for 20 minutes (someone please supply exact values),
>>others say boil for a couple of minutes, others use sterilizing
>>chemicals.
>>
>>I can only tell you what I do myself, and I make no recommendation of
>>it.
>>First I rinse in water which is not so hot that I can't have my hands
>>in
>>it. Then I squeeze out the water, and I let it dry out. I have a few
>>extra sponges from unused filters. These questionable sponges get left
>>on the tank cover (in the sunlight) or thrown into a box to dry out.
>>My
>>thinking is that the rinsing removes most of the stuff, the water
>>temperature kills more stuff, and dehydration takes care of anything
>>left
>>over. It might not be 100% effective, but it's probably the most
>>effective you can get for the least amount of chemical-free effort ;~).
>>It's also similar to what I do for gravel, tanks and accessories (hot
>>rinse and dehydration).
>>
>>If the sponge comes from a really sick tank, then I just throw it in
>>the
>>garbage. hth
>
> I hope my hospital tank remains a sanctuary, rather than a "sick"
> tank, but I don't know why I would bother cleaning a filter sleeve
> from a Whisper Jr. I have a supply of filter sleeves on hand. The
> wise thing, as you suggest, is to replace the sleeve.
>
> dick

.... and those filter sleeves are not really designed for long term usage
anyways.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:43:15 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:09:02 -0400, "NetMax"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"m" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>>> My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> planning on using any substrate.
>>>>>>>> My question is this: is substrate important other than for
>>>>>>>> decoration?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the
>>>>>>>pieces
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the
>>>>>>>case
>>>>>>>with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
>>>>>>>surface
>>>>>>>area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures,
>>>>>>>sterilization
>>>>>>>due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering
>>>>>>>effect.
>>>>>>>Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I
>>>>>>>wouldn't
>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>concerned about not using any substrate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
>>>>>>>media
>>>>>>>from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -m
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Netmax,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My
>>>>>> hospital
>>>>>> tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy
>>>>>> water.
>>>>>> It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
>>>>>> refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
>>>>>> hold the bacteria.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days,
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
>>>>>> hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dick
>>>>>
>>>>>Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation,
>>>>>quarantine
>>>>>etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the
>>>>>sponges
>>>>>back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of
>>>>>sponge
>>>>>filters for small tanks like this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday, I swapped cartridges between the hospital tank and another
>>>> 10 gal tank. This morning the water is clear. I think the lack of
>>>> gravel keeps the tank from staying cycled. The hospital tank is the
>>>> only one I vacuum the bottom to keep the loose debris down. It is
>>>> planted with the plants kept on the bottom by lead weights.
>>>>
>>>> I also wonder about swapping the cartridges from the hospital tank to
>>>> the clean tank. No problem bringing the clean tank cartridge to the
>>>> hospital tank. So, cannot the hospital tank cartridge be cleaned
>>>> with
>>>> hot water and make it safe? I don't often have fish problems that
>>>> require toxic treatment, mostly old age related or physical damage.
>>>> Of the 3 currently in the tank, only 1 needs to be there. She is
>>>> mostly blind and has a twisted spine making it hard for her to
>>>> compete
>>>> in a large tank.
>>>>
>>>> dick
>>>
>>>Regarding the use of sponges which 'lack confidence' for the lack of a
>>>better term, anything which came in contact with questionable
>>>organisms,
>>>the correct procedure to follow for sterilization varies according to
>>>who
>>>is giving the instructions. There is the technical version which is
>>>something like 85C for 20 minutes (someone please supply exact values),
>>>others say boil for a couple of minutes, others use sterilizing
>>>chemicals.
>>>
>>>I can only tell you what I do myself, and I make no recommendation of
>>>it.
>>>First I rinse in water which is not so hot that I can't have my hands
>>>in
>>>it. Then I squeeze out the water, and I let it dry out. I have a few
>>>extra sponges from unused filters. These questionable sponges get left
>>>on the tank cover (in the sunlight) or thrown into a box to dry out.
>>>My
>>>thinking is that the rinsing removes most of the stuff, the water
>>>temperature kills more stuff, and dehydration takes care of anything
>>>left
>>>over. It might not be 100% effective, but it's probably the most
>>>effective you can get for the least amount of chemical-free effort ;~).
>>>It's also similar to what I do for gravel, tanks and accessories (hot
>>>rinse and dehydration).
>>>
>>>If the sponge comes from a really sick tank, then I just throw it in
>>>the
>>>garbage. hth
>>
>> I hope my hospital tank remains a sanctuary, rather than a "sick"
>> tank, but I don't know why I would bother cleaning a filter sleeve
>> from a Whisper Jr. I have a supply of filter sleeves on hand. The
>> wise thing, as you suggest, is to replace the sleeve.
>>
>> dick
>
>... and those filter sleeves are not really designed for long term usage
>anyways.


How so? To my thinking, if they filter the waste, that is all they
can do. There are no active ingredients as I do not add in charcoal
to the sleeve.

dick

[NetMax]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:43:15 -0400, "NetMax"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:09:02 -0400, "NetMax"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>>>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"m" > wrote in message
...

<snipped for brevity>

>>> I hope my hospital tank remains a sanctuary, rather than a "sick"
>>> tank, but I don't know why I would bother cleaning a filter sleeve
>>> from a Whisper Jr. I have a supply of filter sleeves on hand. The
>>> wise thing, as you suggest, is to replace the sleeve.
>>>
>>> dick
>>
>>... and those filter sleeves are not really designed for long term
>>usage
>>anyways.
>
>
> How so? To my thinking, if they filter the waste, that is all they
> can do. There are no active ingredients as I do not add in charcoal
> to the sleeve.
>
> dick

It's simply a question of the material's construction. Porous filter
media can be re-used as long as it maintains its integrity and water
still passes through it. Spun poly-wool (looks like white cotton-candy)
can only be used once. Poly-wool sheets can be reused several times,
depending on how dirty they were allowed to get. Many disposable filter
sleeves are constructed of some form of poly-wool sheet. Foam blocks can
last for years if rinsed regularly to prevent internal blockage.
--
www.NetMax.tk