cycling with rock and sand only?

[David Cheney]

Anyone have any idea how long it should take to cycle with just rock and
sand? I started a 75 gal. tank about 3 weeks ago and am still waiting for
the nitrites to register. I've got about 40 lbs of well cured live rock and
20 lbs of sand. I'm moving from a 29 to the new 75 and want to make sure
the new tank is stable so I don't lose anything. Will adding a live
bacteria supplement such as TLC bypass the cycle or just help speed it up.

[George Patterson]

David Cheney wrote:
> Anyone have any idea how long it should take to cycle with just rock and
> sand? I started a 75 gal. tank about 3 weeks ago and am still waiting for
> the nitrites to register. I've got about 40 lbs of well cured live rock and
> 20 lbs of sand. I'm moving from a 29 to the new 75 and want to make sure
> the new tank is stable so I don't lose anything. Will adding a live
> bacteria supplement such as TLC bypass the cycle or just help speed it up.

All you have is rock & sand? No animals or fish? If so, it'll never cycle in the
true sense.

The cycle results from the decay of waste products, such as uneaten food and
animal or fish urine. These decay into ammonia, which is processed by bacteria
to produce nitrites, which are processed further to produce nitrates. The
increases in ammonia or nitrites occur when there are insufficient colonies of
bacteria to process things.

Even if you do have animals or fish, it's quite possible that the 75 will never
undergo a nitrite increase. If the 29 was a fully cycled system, and you moved
everything in it over to the 75 and didn't add anything, you probably won't see
a noticeable cycle. Your bacteria colonies came along with the sand and rock.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Billy]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:B_wae.1047$O2.178@trndny04...
> All you have is rock & sand? No animals or fish? If so, it'll never
> cycle in the true sense.
>
> The cycle results from the decay of waste products, such as uneaten
> food and animal or fish urine. These decay into ammonia, which is
> processed by bacteria to produce nitrites, which are processed
> further to produce nitrates. The increases in ammonia or nitrites
> occur when there are insufficient colonies of bacteria to process
> things.
>
> Even if you do have animals or fish, it's quite possible that the
> 75 will never undergo a nitrite increase. If the 29 was a fully
> cycled system, and you moved everything in it over to the 75 and
> didn't add anything, you probably won't see a noticeable cycle.
> Your bacteria colonies came along with the sand and rock.

Any live rock, even rock that is "cured" (do not let this term
fool you, any rock that has spent more than a few minutes out of
established water will undergo some die-off), will produce waste, and
the tank will undergo a cycle. You may not see a measureable amount
of ammonia or nitrite, or even nitrates, but the tank will cycle.
This is my preferred method of cycling, incidentally. It is not a
fast cycle, but in this hobby, slow is the best way to go.

--
Billy
----
Beta-Tester
WinExtra
Home Socrates
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[George Patterson]

Billy wrote:
>
> You may not see a measureable amount
> of ammonia or nitrite, or even nitrates, but the tank will cycle.
> This is my preferred method of cycling, incidentally. It is not a
> fast cycle, but in this hobby, slow is the best way to go.

We're simply using different semantics. Many people consider the cycle to be a
situation in which there is a noticeable increase in ammonia, followed by an
increase in nitrites. In fact, there's another thread which contains "...fully
cycled (i.e amonia and nitrites have increased and then droped[sic]to
zero)....." It certainly appears to me that the OP follows this definition.

I would say (and, in fact, did) that his tank may not undergo a noticeable
cycle. But it may already be or become bacteriologically balanced without one.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[[email protected]]

David

If your live rock was very well cured, you may not see a nitrite peak. The
last tank I set up had a peak of amonia after about 3 days, the next day,
ammonia and nitrites were zero! (I'm sure that the nitrates peaked but it
didn't register on daily tests). Where are your nitrates? You may have
missed the nitrites but if the nitrates are up a bit the rock is probably
cycled. It's worth checking your source water, if the nitrates are higher in
the tank than the source water, then you may well have already cycled. If in
doubt, it may be worth putting a couple of shrimp (fresh, frozen but not
live!) and carefully watch the ammonia levels, if they increase after a day
or two, you haven't cycled properly yet.

If you plan to do the biological filtration by live rock alone (and that
would be my preference), I would add at least another 40lbs to the existing
rock for a 75 gallon tank.

I hope it helps.

Mark

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[David Cheney]

I added a good chunk of frozen shrimp about a week ago. Also added some of
the waste from my protein skimmer (not sure this was a good idea or not, but
it was high in ammonia) Didn't see any big change in the ammonia. I'm just
using test kits so it's hard to get a real accurate reading.

nitrates = 0
nitrites = 0
ammonia =between 0 & .25 (been there for a couple of weeks)
I realize these are some what vague.

I've also noticed a lot of reddish algae which I have associated with
ammonia spikes in my other tank.


> wrote in message
...
> David
>
> If your live rock was very well cured, you may not see a nitrite peak. The
> last tank I set up had a peak of amonia after about 3 days, the next day,
> ammonia and nitrites were zero! (I'm sure that the nitrates peaked but it
> didn't register on daily tests). Where are your nitrates? You may have
> missed the nitrites but if the nitrates are up a bit the rock is probably
> cycled. It's worth checking your source water, if the nitrates are higher
> in
> the tank than the source water, then you may well have already cycled. If
> in
> doubt, it may be worth putting a couple of shrimp (fresh, frozen but not
> live!) and carefully watch the ammonia levels, if they increase after a
> day
> or two, you haven't cycled properly yet.
>
> If you plan to do the biological filtration by live rock alone (and that
> would be my preference), I would add at least another 40lbs to the
> existing
> rock for a 75 gallon tank.
>
> I hope it helps.
>
> Mark
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com

[David Cheney]

Are you saying that it would be safe to move everything at this time?


"Billy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:B_wae.1047$O2.178@trndny04...
>> All you have is rock & sand? No animals or fish? If so, it'll never cycle
>> in the true sense.
>>
>> The cycle results from the decay of waste products, such as uneaten food
>> and animal or fish urine. These decay into ammonia, which is processed by
>> bacteria to produce nitrites, which are processed further to produce
>> nitrates. The increases in ammonia or nitrites occur when there are
>> insufficient colonies of bacteria to process things.
>>
>> Even if you do have animals or fish, it's quite possible that the 75 will
>> never undergo a nitrite increase. If the 29 was a fully cycled system,
>> and you moved everything in it over to the 75 and didn't add anything,
>> you probably won't see a noticeable cycle. Your bacteria colonies came
>> along with the sand and rock.
>
> Any live rock, even rock that is "cured" (do not let this term fool
> you, any rock that has spent more than a few minutes out of established
> water will undergo some die-off), will produce waste, and the tank will
> undergo a cycle. You may not see a measureable amount of ammonia or
> nitrite, or even nitrates, but the tank will cycle. This is my preferred
> method of cycling, incidentally. It is not a fast cycle, but in this
> hobby, slow is the best way to go.
>
> --
> Billy
> ----
> Beta-Tester
> WinExtra
> Home Socrates
> http://www.winextra.com
> news://news.winextra.com
> About our newsgroups:
> http://www.winextra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=36
>

[Billy]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:Ysxae.2618$WX.218@trndny01...
>
> We're simply using different semantics. Many people consider the
> cycle to be a

You're correct, of course. :)

[George Patterson]

David Cheney wrote:
> Are you saying that it would be safe to move everything at this time?

I'm saying that nothing will happen until you do. The bacterial colonies will
not grow until you provide food for them (urea, ammonia, and nitrites). The tank
is apparently stable at the moment with the rock and sand which you have in there.

If it were my tank, I would transfer at least part of the contents of your 29
now. During a "traditional" cycle, the ammonia levels usually spike at about 10
days, and nitrites become detectable at 14. You've gone 21, so I believe you
will not see any increase in nitrites with the tank set up the way it is.

I would also say that the contents of your 29 will probably not produce a
detectable rise in nitrates when they are added to your 75. The new tank is
large enough to absorb the additional load.

FWIW, there has never been a detectable increase in nitrates in my 125, nor in
the 100 I had before that (and I've moved several times). I've simply never been
able to find enough fish that I like to add enough load at one time to cause an
increase. Your situation sounds similar.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[Gerard Tremblay]

I started out the same way with my 120 gallon tank. 170 lbs, of live rock
and 120 lbs of live sand. NO fish. It took 6 weeks. It WILL cycle. I added
bacteria but I don't think I really needed to. The live rock was overnighted
from Hawaii in an unsealed box and the rocks were wrapped in wet newspaper
so these had to cure in the tank.
"David Cheney" > wrote in message
...
> Are you saying that it would be safe to move everything at this time?
>
>
> "Billy" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
>> news:B_wae.1047$O2.178@trndny04...
>>> All you have is rock & sand? No animals or fish? If so, it'll never
>>> cycle in the true sense.
>>>
>>> The cycle results from the decay of waste products, such as uneaten food
>>> and animal or fish urine. These decay into ammonia, which is processed
>>> by bacteria to produce nitrites, which are processed further to produce
>>> nitrates. The increases in ammonia or nitrites occur when there are
>>> insufficient colonies of bacteria to process things.
>>>
>>> Even if you do have animals or fish, it's quite possible that the 75
>>> will never undergo a nitrite increase. If the 29 was a fully cycled
>>> system, and you moved everything in it over to the 75 and didn't add
>>> anything, you probably won't see a noticeable cycle. Your bacteria
>>> colonies came along with the sand and rock.
>>
>> Any live rock, even rock that is "cured" (do not let this term fool
>> you, any rock that has spent more than a few minutes out of established
>> water will undergo some die-off), will produce waste, and the tank will
>> undergo a cycle. You may not see a measureable amount of ammonia or
>> nitrite, or even nitrates, but the tank will cycle. This is my preferred
>> method of cycling, incidentally. It is not a fast cycle, but in this
>> hobby, slow is the best way to go.
>>
>> --
>> Billy
>> ----
>> Beta-Tester
>> WinExtra
>> Home Socrates
>> http://www.winextra.com
>> news://news.winextra.com
>> About our newsgroups:
>> http://www.winextra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=36
>>
>
>

[Ray Martini]

I added 90 lbs of LR to a new 72 gallon and lights out for a month. Watched
NH3 skyrocket off the charts, then NO2 off the charts, even the daylight
from the room caused significant algae growth so it spent a week covered in
black garbage bags. After the month was over all levels were zero. That was
the longest month of my life, chompin at the bit to get animals in there. It
was totally worth the wait.

Takes time ....


"Billy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:B_wae.1047$O2.178@trndny04...
>> All you have is rock & sand? No animals or fish? If so, it'll never cycle
>> in the true sense.
>>
>> The cycle results from the decay of waste products, such as uneaten food
>> and animal or fish urine. These decay into ammonia, which is processed by
>> bacteria to produce nitrites, which are processed further to produce
>> nitrates. The increases in ammonia or nitrites occur when there are
>> insufficient colonies of bacteria to process things.
>>
>> Even if you do have animals or fish, it's quite possible that the 75 will
>> never undergo a nitrite increase. If the 29 was a fully cycled system,
>> and you moved everything in it over to the 75 and didn't add anything,
>> you probably won't see a noticeable cycle. Your bacteria colonies came
>> along with the sand and rock.
>
> Any live rock, even rock that is "cured" (do not let this term fool
> you, any rock that has spent more than a few minutes out of established
> water will undergo some die-off), will produce waste, and the tank will
> undergo a cycle. You may not see a measureable amount of ammonia or
> nitrite, or even nitrates, but the tank will cycle. This is my preferred
> method of cycling, incidentally. It is not a fast cycle, but in this
> hobby, slow is the best way to go.
>
> --
> Billy
> ----
> Beta-Tester
> WinExtra
> Home Socrates
> http://www.winextra.com
> news://news.winextra.com
> About our newsgroups:
> http://www.winextra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=36
>