Water flow rate

[Ken Wilson]

I have upgraded to a 120 litre tank with a Fluval 3+ filter. This is more
powerful than my previous filter and can cause quite a lot of agitation for
the fish (angels, silver sharks, tetras, gourami, platy).

I read in the FAQ that excessive water flow can be bad news but it doesn't
say why. I have taken to turning it up in the morning and they seem to have
a play and ride the current and bubbles and then they go quieter in the
evening so i turn it down for the night.

I reason that that will make for fitter fish and maximise the nitrate
removal (my tap water comes in higher than you chaps seem to run your tanks
on.) without wearing them out but any other considerations?

ken
Hampshire UK

[[email protected]]

Hmm, one Fluval 3+ is probably inadequate for 120 litre. I have a 50
gallon tank with 2 of them.

How much water movement is appropriate really depends on the species.
Gouramis live in still water in the wild. They don't like moving
water. Moving water also destroys their bubble nests.

My advice is to turn your filter to maximum water flow and aim the
water stream at the nearest wall. This way you have maximum water flow
without the excessive water movement.

You are wrong. The filter does not remove nitrate. It converts
ammonium and nitrite into nitrate.

[[email protected]]

You could use a baffle or a homemade baffle out of a spray bar or 2 to
reduce current agitation, that way the current energy is diffused over
the whole tank instead of in the corner, on one side, etc.. Attach an
appropriately sized vinyl hose (unless you can find a proper adapter,
if your outlet is squarish I don't know of anymore you can do) to the
fluval 3+ outlet and attach a spray bar or two to the other end, then
place spraybar on one narrow side of the tank and it should generalize
water flow. I have read that well exercised (betta in particular) fish
live a lot longer and have a better immune system. Those fluvals (both
the fluval internal filter series and the multi-stage filtration
canister filters) are great filters and have little to no competition
anymore so they are time proven filters. I love how cheap those high
flow fluval internal filters are, just brilliant! Later!

P.S. - Over a year ago I put a 400 gallon per hour hagen powerhead with
a sponge prefilter, to keep out baby and other small fish, into my 15
gallon tank in my bedroom with just fancy guppies and man I realize it
was overkill but I don't remember any deaths while it operated for over
a month. The only reason I stopped using the powerhead was because it
seemed to solubilize waste into the water and water borne algae grew
and later the algae died off and the cloudiness turned whitish which
meant some sort of bacteria bloom and didn't seem healthy so like I
said I stopped it. There was a quiet area in the tank created by 2 18
inch plastic hornwort plants and a cave decoration so the fish could
rest but I remember those little guys getting quite a workout, maybe
too much of a workout. The sponge filter is a filter-max III sponge
prefilter attached with some of the included adapters to a 2 inch (1
inch diameter) rigid tubing to the soft plastic/rubber/silicone/vinyl
adapter cone that the powerhead came with. The 1 inch diameter rigid
tubing was applied to the adapter cone with a lot of force for a
practically permanent connection and connected to the prefilter adapter
with little force for easy removal in the future but a good enough
connection to be reliable.

[Dick]

On 23 Apr 2005 22:16:10 -0700, "
> wrote:

>Hmm, one Fluval 3+ is probably inadequate for 120 litre. I have a 50
>gallon tank with 2 of them.
>
>How much water movement is appropriate really depends on the species.
>Gouramis live in still water in the wild. They don't like moving
>water. Moving water also destroys their bubble nests.
>
>My advice is to turn your filter to maximum water flow and aim the
>water stream at the nearest wall. This way you have maximum water flow
>without the excessive water movement.
>
>You are wrong. The filter does not remove nitrate. It converts
>ammonium and nitrite into nitrate.

I have 3 Blue Gouramis in a 75 gallon tank with two Penguin 330s. I
also have a heavy flow of air coming from the bottom middle. The
outflow stirs the water at the top, but does not seem to bother the
Gouramis. Their daytime stations are close to the top spread evenly,
one in each corner and the third in the middle.

I don't see that all of the water mixing disturbs any of the 60
various fish.

dick

[Ken Wilson]

>

> How much water movement is appropriate really depends on the species.
> Gouramis live in still water in the wild. They don't like moving
> water. Moving water also destroys their bubble nests.
>

Yes - i noticed him (it? dunno - my wife wanted an electric blue fish and i
know which side my bread is buttered - or rather who butters it) blowing
bubbles - but his mate died in a loss of plot incident in my old tank (about
half the size ) about a year ago. so it will have to remain spinsterish
becuase i understand two male gouramis get territorial and that winds me up.


> My advice is to turn your filter to maximum water flow and aim the
> water stream at the nearest wall. This way you have maximum water flow
> without the excessive water movement.

Thanks.
>
> You are wrong. The filter does not remove nitrate. It converts
> ammonium and nitrite into nitrate.

i understood that the bacteria turned ammonia to nitrite and that others
turned that into nitrate - and that the name of the game was to encourage
the wee beasties to grow on the filter media - but i also thought that the
nitrate was gobbled up by the live plants (aside form the water change
method) but that it needed lots of aeration of the water to do so. when i
turn the flow up I twiddle the aeration button at the same time to give lots
of bubbles and i thought that was helping to reduce the nitrate level BELOW
the level coming in from my tap water (as it is eg today). Can't find where
i got this notion from though - how far out is it?

ken

>

[Ken Wilson]

> wrote in message

> You could use a baffle or a homemade baffle out of a spray bar or 2 to
> reduce current agitation, that way the current energy is diffused over
> the whole tank instead of in the corner, on one side, etc.. Attach an
> appropriately sized vinyl hose (unless you can find a proper adapter,
> if your outlet is squarish I don't know of anymore you can do) to the
> fluval 3+ outlet and attach a spray bar or two to the other end, then
> place spraybar on one narrow side of the tank and it should generalize
> water flow.

Funnily i had started experimenting with this idea on my old smaller tank
before i got the go ahead to upgrade. The new filter can really throw it
out so i thought it better to ask before playing anymore.

Ken

[Elaine T]

Ken Wilson wrote:
> >
>
>>How much water movement is appropriate really depends on the species.
>>Gouramis live in still water in the wild. They don't like moving
>>water. Moving water also destroys their bubble nests.
>>
>
>
> Yes - i noticed him (it? dunno - my wife wanted an electric blue fish and i
> know which side my bread is buttered - or rather who butters it) blowing
> bubbles - but his mate died in a loss of plot incident in my old tank (about
> half the size ) about a year ago. so it will have to remain spinsterish
> becuase i understand two male gouramis get territorial and that winds me up.
>
>
>
>>My advice is to turn your filter to maximum water flow and aim the
>>water stream at the nearest wall. This way you have maximum water flow
>>without the excessive water movement.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>>You are wrong. The filter does not remove nitrate. It converts
>>ammonium and nitrite into nitrate.
>
>
> i understood that the bacteria turned ammonia to nitrite and that others
> turned that into nitrate - and that the name of the game was to encourage
> the wee beasties to grow on the filter media - but i also thought that the
> nitrate was gobbled up by the live plants (aside form the water change
> method) but that it needed lots of aeration of the water to do so. when i
> turn the flow up I twiddle the aeration button at the same time to give lots
> of bubbles and i thought that was helping to reduce the nitrate level BELOW
> the level coming in from my tap water (as it is eg today). Can't find where
> i got this notion from though - how far out is it?
>
> ken
>
You're not too far out. Bacteria take ammonia through nitrite to
nitrate. Plants can also use ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. And yes,
enough rapidly growing plants can pull nitrates down very low. Plants
don't need any more aeration than fish, though. What you're doing is
equalizing the CO2 with atmospheric so the plants always have some CO2
around to use. As long as there's some surface splash or movement, you
should have adequate gas exchange for both fish and plants.

Folks with heavily planted tanks actually add CO2 to the water from
tanks or yeast brews. Then they turn off all aeration and reduce
surface splash to keep the CO2 higher than what normally dissolves from
the atmosphere. The fish have plenty of oxygen from the plants, and the
plants grow much faster.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dick]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:34:41 +0100, "Ken Wilson"
> wrote:

>
>
>> How much water movement is appropriate really depends on the species.
>> Gouramis live in still water in the wild. They don't like moving
>> water. Moving water also destroys their bubble nests.
>>
>
>Yes - i noticed him (it? dunno - my wife wanted an electric blue fish and i
>know which side my bread is buttered - or rather who butters it) blowing
>bubbles - but his mate died in a loss of plot incident in my old tank (about
>half the size ) about a year ago. so it will have to remain spinsterish
>becuase i understand two male gouramis get territorial and that winds me up.
>
Of my 3 Blue Gouramis, 2 are males. They have their territories and
will sometimes attack the visitor, but not often and no damage has
ever resulted in over 2 years. The males are about 6 inches in
length.
>
>> My advice is to turn your filter to maximum water flow and aim the
>> water stream at the nearest wall. This way you have maximum water flow
>> without the excessive water movement.
>
My two 330s flow directly from back to front. I see fish swim in the
flow all the time.

>Thanks.
>>
>> You are wrong. The filter does not remove nitrate. It converts
>> ammonium and nitrite into nitrate.
>
>i understood that the bacteria turned ammonia to nitrite and that others
>turned that into nitrate - and that the name of the game was to encourage
>the wee beasties to grow on the filter media - but i also thought that the
>nitrate was gobbled up by the live plants (aside form the water change
>method) but that it needed lots of aeration of the water to do so. when i
>turn the flow up I twiddle the aeration button at the same time to give lots
>of bubbles and i thought that was helping to reduce the nitrate level BELOW
>the level coming in from my tap water (as it is eg today). Can't find where
>i got this notion from though - how far out is it?
>
>ken
>
>>
>
Have you measured your tap water for nitrates? Mine comes in at zero
nitrates.

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
> Have you measured your tap water for nitrates? Mine comes in at zero
> nitrates.
>
You obviously don't live in farm country :-).

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

[Ken Wilson]

"Dick"
> Have you measured your tap water for nitrates? Mine comes in at zero
> nitrates.


Mine came in last time at 30. England - water off the South Downs at
Portsmouth.

and its hard which is why i enquired elsewhere about the external filters -
reading up i need to put some peat in to acidify it back to neutral as
well - and that seems to need a multicompartment filter which means external

[NetMax]

"Ken Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> "Dick"
>> Have you measured your tap water for nitrates? Mine comes in at zero
>> nitrates.
>
>
> Mine came in last time at 30. England - water off the South Downs at
> Portsmouth.
>
> and its hard which is why i enquired elsewhere about the external
> filters -
> reading up i need to put some peat in to acidify it back to neutral as
> well - and that seems to need a multicompartment filter which means
> external


It's been my experience that filtering and water softening with peat
fibre work best in their own separate external filters. Putting them
together is somewhat klugey, as i) peat clogs easily starving the
filter's biological function, ii) typically requires more room for the
peat than is available and iii) the peat and filters don't often have the
identical maintenance interval. Just my observations. I'm sure many can
make it work. If you want to try it, I suggest you look into
concentrated peat pellets, which are better designed for this.

For your 'natural' nitrates, look to natural plants, either in the tank
or in a planted reservoir (ie: algae scrubbers).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Dick]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:49:56 -0700, lgb > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> Have you measured your tap water for nitrates? Mine comes in at zero
>> nitrates.
>>
>You obviously don't live in farm country :-).

Your right, I live in ranch land, no crops and only very natural
fertilizers. All the water is coming from our local community wells
and the community keeps a close watch on the water maintenance to see
the guy that controls the chemistry keeps the chlorine to a minimum.

dick

[Ken Wilson]

"NetMax" > It's been my experience that filtering and water softening with
peat
> fibre work best in their own separate external filters. Putting them
> together is somewhat klugey, as i) peat clogs easily starving the
> filter's biological function, ii) typically requires more room for the
> peat than is available and iii) the peat and filters don't often have the
> identical maintenance interval. Just my observations. I'm sure many can
> make it work. If you want to try it, I suggest you look into
> concentrated peat pellets, which are better designed for this.
>
> For your 'natural' nitrates, look to natural plants, either in the tank
> or in a planted reservoir (ie: algae scrubbers).

Ok Thanks.

two external filters? Oh dear - still negotiating to be allowed to put ONE
on the floor behind the unit.......

can you put the peat pellets in loose?


I have it quite heavily planted - and after a couple of years of replacing
plants every few weeks I thought to ask the chap in the shop. His
recommendations for this area are going like the clappers.

But i have just tested my tank and tap water this evening at the same time -
and I couldn't tell the two purples apart - both about 20. makes it a bit
academic to change the water to reduce nitrate levels.... still - need to
siphon off the wastes i suppose.

ken

[NetMax]

"Ken Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NetMax" > It's been my experience that filtering and water softening
> with
> peat
>> fibre work best in their own separate external filters. Putting them
>> together is somewhat klugey, as i) peat clogs easily starving the
>> filter's biological function, ii) typically requires more room for the
>> peat than is available and iii) the peat and filters don't often have
>> the
>> identical maintenance interval. Just my observations. I'm sure many
>> can
>> make it work. If you want to try it, I suggest you look into
>> concentrated peat pellets, which are better designed for this.
>>
>> For your 'natural' nitrates, look to natural plants, either in the
>> tank
>> or in a planted reservoir (ie: algae scrubbers).
>
> Ok Thanks.
>
> two external filters? Oh dear - still negotiating to be allowed to put
> ONE
> on the floor behind the unit.......

Well, that negotiation I can't help too much with, however letting your
spouse pick some of their own fish will make them more tolerant to the
mechanical add-ons to keep everyone happy.

> can you put the peat pellets in loose?

In theory yes, but the closest I've seen in practice is putting them in
filter bags (fine mesh bags) and locating them in the tank, near the
output of the filter. I'm not convinced that you really need/want peat
filtering though. Generally, if you have water that *really* needs it,
then the peat will not be strong enough to make much of a difference.
Peat really has a narrow range of usefullness in the small quantities we
are discussing, though the pellets are probably 2 or 3 times as powerful.

> I have it quite heavily planted - and after a couple of years of
> replacing
> plants every few weeks I thought to ask the chap in the shop. His
> recommendations for this area are going like the clappers.

I'm not familiar with the term 'clappers'. There are plants which do
reasonably well in harder waters, such as Hornwort, some Vallesneria and
Echinodorous. Here are some plant search engines which will help refine
your search according to your water parameters:
http://www.disky-design.dk/fish/PlantSearch/PlantSearch.html
http://www.aquaplant.org/cgi/search1.plx

> But i have just tested my tank and tap water this evening at the same
> time -
> and I couldn't tell the two purples apart - both about 20. makes it a
> bit
> academic to change the water to reduce nitrate levels.... still - need
> to
> siphon off the wastes i suppose.

Yes, controlling NO3 to a certain level is often used as a water change
indicator, but it really isn't just the NO3 which needs to be controlled.
I wonder if you shouldn't go the CO2 & higher light levels approach.
This will acidify your water (the carbonic acids), soften the water
(plants use minerals in the water to grow) and suck the NO3 out of the
water. Of course, if you're having trouble getting the ok on an external
filter, then an external bottle of DIY yeast reactor won't go over very
well either ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk


> ken

[Ken Wilson]

"NetMax"
> Well, that negotiation I can't help too much with, however letting your
> spouse pick some of their own fish will make them more tolerant to the
> mechanical add-ons to keep everyone happy.



2 yellow platy = 1 fluval 204 external

:-)

ken

[NetMax]

"Ken Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> "NetMax"
>> Well, that negotiation I can't help too much with, however letting
>> your
>> spouse pick some of their own fish will make them more tolerant to the
>> mechanical add-ons to keep everyone happy.
>
>
>
> 2 yellow platy = 1 fluval 204 external
>
> :-)
>
> ken


Good bargain, especially if you got a pair - who are going to increase
the filtration requirements ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk