Angelfish with raw patches on its sides acting sick

[JamesG]

I am concerned about one of my angelfishes. Last week I was worried
that a different angelfish was sick so I moved it to a hospital tank.
I increased the temperature in my main tank up to 82F and things seemed
to be okay until yesterday. As I was moving back my other angelfish
back (it had some white marks on its tail that I decided were just
injuries to the bones from getting picked on) I noticed that the one in
the main tank was hiding in the corner. It has not been eating as
vigorously as it used to either. I am worried that it may be sick.
Should I move it to the hospital tank? What would you recommend
treating it with? I haven't really noticed a fish with raw patches
like this before except that I used to have a Black-Belt Cichlid that
had young feed on the raw patches on its body (gross but effective baby
food I guess). Do angelfish do this? Could it just be that the
temperature change might have prepared it for spawning? This is likely
wishful thinking since it is probably sick. Any thoughts you have are
appreciated.

Thanks,
James

[Elaine T]

JamesG wrote:
> I am concerned about one of my angelfishes. Last week I was worried
> that a different angelfish was sick so I moved it to a hospital tank.
> I increased the temperature in my main tank up to 82F and things seemed
> to be okay until yesterday. As I was moving back my other angelfish
> back (it had some white marks on its tail that I decided were just
> injuries to the bones from getting picked on) I noticed that the one in
> the main tank was hiding in the corner. It has not been eating as
> vigorously as it used to either. I am worried that it may be sick.
> Should I move it to the hospital tank? What would you recommend
> treating it with? I haven't really noticed a fish with raw patches
> like this before except that I used to have a Black-Belt Cichlid that
> had young feed on the raw patches on its body (gross but effective baby
> food I guess). Do angelfish do this? Could it just be that the
> temperature change might have prepared it for spawning? This is likely
> wishful thinking since it is probably sick. Any thoughts you have are
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
First, check your water parameters in the main tank. If you've had one
fish with possible finrot and one with raw patches, something is likely
going on to stress the fish. Test water, do some extra water changes,
clean the gravel thoroughly, and add fresh carbon. Watch your angels
and be sure a breeding pair hasn't formed as a pair will chase and
stress the other fish in the tank.

A fish with raw patches on its sides is most certainly sick. Angelfish
do not feed fry off of their slime coats. And an angel that's losing
interest in food is in bad shape - when are angels not piglets? ;-)
Move it to the hospital tank. How do the patches look? Are they
reddish or whitish and slimy?

Reddish patches are usually bacterial and fairly common. I suspect this
is your problem because of the other fish with fin problems. You'll
want to treat in quarantine with a broad spectrum antibiotic. Give food
with oxytetracycline
(http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/medicatedfood.htm tells how). If
the fish stops eating use Maracyn 2 in the water. Treat for 10 days
with the antibiotic, even if the fish looks well. Watch for ammonia and
aerate well if you put Maracyn 2 in the water - it shouldn't disturb the
filter but you never know.

If the patches are white and slimy, the fish may have costia - this is a
less common disease but can happen to angels. If so, check your other
fish in the tank for slimy patches. To treat, use a formalin/malachite
green ich medicine or Clout (Frank's fave if I remember correctly).

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[JamesG]

Elaine,
I really appreciate your response. I put the Angelfish in my
hospital tank and treated the water with an antifungal medication since
upon further inspection it looked like a fungal infection. I am also
feeding the fish an antibacterial food to hopefully prevent secondary
infections. My fish in the 90-gal all look fine I was planning to feed
them an anti-parasite food followed by an anti-bacterial food just in
case. I am also bringing the temperature in the 90-gal back down to
around 75F. I had it up when I was concerned that that other fish
might have had ich. I have had better luck in the past keeping the
temperature lower. Do you have any recommendations for the temperature
in the hospital tank?

Thank you,
James

[Elaine T]

JamesG wrote:
> Elaine,
> I really appreciate your response. I put the Angelfish in my
> hospital tank and treated the water with an antifungal medication since
> upon further inspection it looked like a fungal infection. I am also
> feeding the fish an antibacterial food to hopefully prevent secondary
> infections. My fish in the 90-gal all look fine I was planning to feed
> them an anti-parasite food followed by an anti-bacterial food just in
> case. I am also bringing the temperature in the 90-gal back down to
> around 75F. I had it up when I was concerned that that other fish
> might have had ich. I have had better luck in the past keeping the
> temperature lower. Do you have any recommendations for the temperature
> in the hospital tank?
>
> Thank you,
> James
>
First, the fish wouldn't likely have true fungus without damage. Either
physical damage, or ulcers from a bacterial infection can fungus.
Fluffy white edged lesions may be flexibacter rather than fungus - does
your anti-fungal med have an antibacterial ingredient? Most do, because
the symptoms are so similar but doublecheck so you know you're treating
for either true fungus or flexibacter. Antibacterial food is a good
call too, and will help immensely if you're dealing with flexibacter.
Feed for a full 10 days. As for temps, I keep hospitals at 78F. Warm
enough to stimulate the immune system, but not to stress the fish.

I'd worry more about conditions in the 90 gal than trying to treat
seemingly healthy fish. If you feed antibacterial and antiparisitic
food to healthy fish, you will encourage resistant bacteria and your
food may not work the next time the fish are sick. Even worse, if you
haven't fixed whatever is stressing your fish, they will just get sick
once you finish feeding the medicated food.

You've listed ich, fin damage, and now fungus or flexibacter...
something's amiss. Patch of bad gravel or OTS come to mind. If you
want, you can post tank info and whoever is watching this thread will
hopefully help figure it out. Also change more water - do some extra
changes of whatever volume the fish are accustomed to.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Quatermass]

You got any Plecs in the tank?

They will eat the mucus off the side of Angel fish.

[bassett]

OK . Lets get down to facts, and forget all the crap written below.

Firstly, forget infection , You have one fish, with sore sides, If it was
an infection, other fish would also be showing signs of irritation, Which
there NOT.
You don,t say how big the Angel is, large ,small, breeding nic, etc.
Chances are, and as we haven't seen the fish, so we can only guess what the
problem is. But as I've kept Angels for close to 40 years. Christ is it that
long. No-matter. I would say , you have a breeding pair, and they have BOTH
attacked the interloper, one attacks while the other. sleeps, feed, rests,
then they swap over. and the marks on the sides are Bites.

Move it out, and feed heaps of Brine Shrimp, Blood Worms, Daphne,
If it starts to spawn, which it might do, if it's female. Cut out the Blood
Worms. Blood Worms are full of protein, I,ve had the little buggers
breeding when they where only an inch across, due to Blood worms.
Meal Worms are good, if you can get some, squeeze the insides out into the
water, if there shells are hard. or chop them up. Just about pure protein,
and they breed fast, use Bran, Stick them in a wooden box , in the dark.
with NO moisture. Bloody magic,

And don't start throwing Chemicals into the tank, If your not doubly sure
what your treating, No point treating a sore finger, when you have a broken
leg.

Build the thing up again, Might even grow it a bit more, It will recover,
don't overheat the water, leave it as it was before, It's weak, so rapid
temperature changes, will do more harm then good. Plus high temperatures
increase the heart rate, and use more energy, Which the Angel in it's run
down state does not need. While colder water will make it lethargic
What else do you have in the tank, apart from Angels, Is that a 90 imperial
gallon tank, or US gallons. very confusing this gallon difference.

Might be something completely unconnected to the Angels, Just watch the
others, in case whatever it is, starts attacking another Angel.
And we all know what thought did.
bassett

"Elaine T" > >>
> First, the fish wouldn't likely have true fungus without damage. Either
> physical damage, or ulcers from a bacterial infection can fungus. Fluffy
> white edged lesions may be flexibacter rather than fungus - does your
> anti-fungal med have an antibacterial ingredient? Most do, because the
> symptoms are so similar but doublecheck so you know you're treating for
> either true fungus or flexibacter. Antibacterial food is a good call too,
> and will help immensely if you're dealing with flexibacter. Feed for a
> full 10 days. As for temps, I keep hospitals at 78F. Warm enough to
> stimulate the immune system, but not to stress the fish.
>
> I'd worry more about conditions in the 90 gal than trying to treat
> seemingly healthy fish. If you feed antibacterial and antiparisitic food
> to healthy fish, you will encourage resistant bacteria and your food may
> not work the next time the fish are sick. Even worse, if you haven't
> fixed whatever is stressing your fish, they will just get sick once you
> finish feeding the medicated food.
>
> You've listed ich, fin damage, and now fungus or flexibacter...
> something's amiss. Patch of bad gravel or OTS come to mind. If you want,
> you can post tank info and whoever is watching this thread will hopefully
> help figure it out. Also change more water - do some extra changes of
> whatever volume the fish are accustomed to.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[JamesG]

I do have a pleco in the tank and I had thought that he may have done
the damage. I am aiming to trade him in once I can catch him, they are
surprisingly quick. I agree that doing a preventative treatment on the
healthy fish is probably not a good idea so I am not going to do that.
I have been doing water changes pretty regularly. As far as the other
conditions, this tank has been set up for years and I haven't had
problems before these angels. My theory on this situation is: in my
concern about the possibility of ich or parasites I raised the
temperature of my main tank also. Having the temperature up at 82F
stressed my angelfish that is now sick and he either developed this
fungus or was inactive if the pleco started to chomp on him. I
previously had not used the heater since my house stays warm enough to
keep the tank in a healthy range (over 72F). So the moral of the story
to me is that I need to follow my normal hands off approach to the tank
and only fix things if they actually happen.
I appreciate the help that y'all have given.
Thank you,
James

[JamesG]

Last night when I came home the angelfish was looking better. The
fungus on its sides was pretty much gone and the skin looked like it
was healing up and it ate some food. I went out to a friends house and
when I got home the fish was dead.
Once again, I really appreciate your help.

Thank you,
James

[JamesG]

Bassett,
My big tank is 90 US gallons. I have tetras, two gouramis, two
otos, and a pleco, and now one angelfish. I still have a lot of room
for more fish in the tank. I am thinking about trading in the
angelfish that is left and getting some silver dollars.

Thanks,
James

[Elaine T]

JamesG wrote:
> Bassett,
> My big tank is 90 US gallons. I have tetras, two gouramis, two
> otos, and a pleco, and now one angelfish. I still have a lot of room
> for more fish in the tank. I am thinking about trading in the
> angelfish that is left and getting some silver dollars.
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
Yeah - not much of a fish load there.

Are you feeding the pleco and otos veggies and algae wafers? They also
need wood to be healthy. I've heard stories of very hungry loricarids
trying to suck on slimecoats, and actually saw the behavior for the
first time ever in a PetSmart tank recently. That could be the source
of the physical damage that led to fungus.

I hope your angelfish is doing better.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

JamesG wrote:
> Last night when I came home the angelfish was looking better. The
> fungus on its sides was pretty much gone and the skin looked like it
> was healing up and it ate some food. I went out to a friends house and
> when I got home the fish was dead.
> Once again, I really appreciate your help.
>
> Thank you,
> James
>
I'm so sorry to hear that. It's the worst to lose a fish that's
starting to do better. :-(

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[JamesG]

Elaine,
I appreciate your concern. You have been very helpful during this
frustrating process. I just wish I wouldn't have thought that the
other fish was possibly sick due to a couple of small marks on its tail
that have just turned out to be scars or something harmless. In my
haste I think that I stressed my other angelfish to the point of death.
Raising the temperature in my main tank was not a good move under the
circumstances. Live and learn. I have a lot of wood in my tank, I do
need to start feeding the suckers some veg. matter though.

Thank you for your help,
James

[bassett]

That's a shame that you have lost your angel, the other one could be
stressed or even fretting, if they where a pair, only it knows.
But something's defiantly been having a go at it, So watch the other fish.

Silver Dollars are good, and go well with Angels, only trouble with them is
there Herbivorous, also if your tank is planted, you can kiss it good by.
They like to chomp all the weed at the base so it floats to the top. and
then eat it. I used to feed a leaf of Chinese Cabbage, or Spinish every
day, and by morning everything was gone, except the stalk.

This gallon thing is something that I have never understood, Imperial or US
gallons, I looked it up again to-day and it tells me that One Imperial
gallon was 1.20095 US gallons.. Might be better if everyone used Litres.
But as you say, there's plenty of room in the tank.
bassett


Bassett,
My big tank is 90 US gallons. I have tetras, two gouramis, two
otos, and a pleco, and now one angelfish. I still have a lot of room
for more fish in the tank. I am thinking about trading in the
angelfish that is left and getting some silver dollars.

Thanks,
James

"JamesG" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Elaine,
> I appreciate your concern. You have been very helpful during this
> frustrating process. I just wish I wouldn't have thought that the
> other fish was possibly sick due to a couple of small marks on its tail
> that have just turned out to be scars or something harmless. In my
> haste I think that I stressed my other angelfish to the point of death.
> Raising the temperature in my main tank was not a good move under the
> circumstances. Live and learn. I have a lot of wood in my tank, I do
> need to start feeding the suckers some veg. matter though.
>
> Thank you for your help,
> James
>