Stubborn pH that won't go down

[scs0]

My pH is around 9 and I cannot get it to go down. In about a week's
time I've put in 3 bottles of Beckett pH Lower and now I've been adding
a granular pH reducer with no success.

The pond is roughly 3600 gallons. Even though the pond is about 3
weeks old and young ponds can show screwy pH values, I cannot explain
the failure to reduce the pH because:
1) Ammonia level is 0
2) Total Alkalinity is around 100 (the tester shows a color that's
about halfway between the one for 80 and the next for 120)
3) The rock border is not limestone. I don't know what it is, but I
ensured that the rocks that I bought were not limestone.

Sometimes the pH is a bit lower in the morning and I finally think that
the pH is finally going to a good value but in the afternoon I'm back
up to 9. It might actually be higher since 9 is the highest my tester
will go.

I have several plants that are potted in the sandy Florida soil and I
cover the pots with that standard tan gravel found at Lowes. Some of
my pots are on bricks, but bricks are made from clay and that's not
known for changing pH values like concrete block.

Some of my plants seem to be suffering from the high pH values. The
new leaves on my Water Hyacinths have turned yellow and some other
plants and aborb their nutrients directly from the water are not
looking too good.

I'm starting to get angry about this and I'm dumping larger quantities
of pH reducer in the pond. I'm afraid that something might be
preventing these chemicals from doing what they're supposed to be doing
then all of a sudden my pH will drop to 5!

What's going on?

[George]

"scs0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My pH is around 9 and I cannot get it to go down. In about a week's
> time I've put in 3 bottles of Beckett pH Lower and now I've been adding
> a granular pH reducer with no success.
>
> The pond is roughly 3600 gallons. Even though the pond is about 3
> weeks old and young ponds can show screwy pH values, I cannot explain
> the failure to reduce the pH because:
> 1) Ammonia level is 0
> 2) Total Alkalinity is around 100 (the tester shows a color that's
> about halfway between the one for 80 and the next for 120)
> 3) The rock border is not limestone. I don't know what it is, but I
> ensured that the rocks that I bought were not limestone.
>
> Sometimes the pH is a bit lower in the morning and I finally think that
> the pH is finally going to a good value but in the afternoon I'm back
> up to 9. It might actually be higher since 9 is the highest my tester
> will go.
>
> I have several plants that are potted in the sandy Florida soil and I
> cover the pots with that standard tan gravel found at Lowes. Some of
> my pots are on bricks, but bricks are made from clay and that's not
> known for changing pH values like concrete block.
>
> Some of my plants seem to be suffering from the high pH values. The
> new leaves on my Water Hyacinths have turned yellow and some other
> plants and aborb their nutrients directly from the water are not
> looking too good.
>
> I'm starting to get angry about this and I'm dumping larger quantities
> of pH reducer in the pond. I'm afraid that something might be
> preventing these chemicals from doing what they're supposed to be doing
> then all of a sudden my pH will drop to 5!
>
> What's going on?

How is your pond constructed? Is it made of concrete? If it is, you should
have sealed the concrete before using it. The calcium hydroxide in the concrete
will leach into the water and will cause a very high pH. If it is not concrete,
you should test the pH of your tap water. If it is in the 7 range, then I would
do a 50% water change, but do it slowly if you have animals in the pond. If the
tap water also has a very high pH, I would contact your local water company
because a pH of 9 in tap water is hazardous. I don't like adding pH reducers to
any aquatic system. I prefer to make incremental pH changes by changing the
water over time. Of course, if you have no fish or other animals in the pond,
making a significant pH change isn't going to hurt much of anything. I'm also
wondering about the pH of the sand you use for your plants. Some Florida sands
have a very high pH because they are ocean sands, or derivitives thereof. If
you have any unused sand lying around, you should test the pH of this sand. It
could be your culprit. Finally, I wouldn't use sand for water plants anyway.
You should use a heavy clay or a clay/gravel mix.

[Derek Broughton]

scs0 wrote:

> My pH is around 9 and I cannot get it to go down. In about a week's
> time I've put in 3 bottles of Beckett pH Lower and now I've been adding
> a granular pH reducer with no success.
>
> The pond is roughly 3600 gallons. Even though the pond is about 3
> weeks old and young ponds can show screwy pH values, I cannot explain
> the failure to reduce the pH because:

What on earth is the point of even _thinking_ about pH in a three week old
pond? In another three weeks, whether you do anything or not, the pH will
be different, anyway. Give it some time to settle, _then_ worry about pH.

In any even, "pH Down", "pH Lower", or any of those things seem to have just
about zero effect on ponds.

If your alkilinity isn't changing, you haven't added enough acid to move the
pH anyway.

As for the fact that the "rock border is not limestone", you'd have been
better off if it was. Limestone won't raise your pH to anything your fish
or plants can't handle, and it helps cut down on swings. There's nothing
wrong with a pH of 8 to 8.5.

> 'm starting to get angry about this and I'm dumping larger quantities
> of pH reducer in the pond.**I'm*afraid*that*something*might*be
> preventing these chemicals from doing what they're supposed to be doing
> then all of a sudden my pH will drop to 5!

Probably.
--
derek

[scs0]

My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
problems.

I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.

I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
still on the market.

Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)

[scs0]

>> There's nothing wrong with
>> a pH of 8 to 8.5.

I've heard that high pH values aren't bad for fish, but I read that
plants have a difficult time absorbing nurtients with a pH above 7.8 -
especially the free floating ones. My Hyacinths are looking pretty
sad and from what I read a high pH will cause the symptoms that I have
seen with them.

Maybe I am being a little too worried over this. The fish seem happy
and the rooted aquatic plants are growing, since I live in Florida I
will always have easy access to water hyacinths anytime I want them so
maybe I should hold off on playing with the pH for a few more weeks.

[George]

"scs0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
> issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
> mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
> forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
> Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
> with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
> of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
> problems.
>
> I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
> but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
> or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
> ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
> perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
> anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
> tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
> tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
> read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
> the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
> because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
> would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.
>
> I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
> horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
> when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
> trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
> light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
> still on the market.
>
> Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
> seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
> adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
> 75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)

Hmmm. I suspect that it may be the Florida sand you are using, but I could be
wrong. You should check the pH. If you don't have a pH kit for soil, you can
take a fresh sample of the sand (not from the pots), and mix it with tap water
in a small glass or jar (check the pH of the tap water first). Let the mixture
sit for a few hours (one day might be better), then check the pH of the water.
If it is in the same range or higher than your pond water, you've likely found
your culprit. You can use bentonite clay as a substrate for plants, which you
should be able to get at the building materials section of Lowes. Sometimes it
comes in bags like concrete, and sometimes it comes in 5-gallon buckets. It's
pretty cheap. Oh, I almost forgot. When using bentonite, it is a good idea to
mix it with water in a small tub or other container. Mix it a little at a time
because bentonite absorbs water like crazy and will swell to 20 times its dry
volume. I have mixed a cup at a time with good results. The stuff will be very
slippery and icky to touch. Once it has completely swelled as much as it is
going to, then you can mix some gravel in with it and then plant your plants in
the pot you are going to use, using the bentonite/gravel mixture for the
substrate. Good luck.

~George~
________________________
Here is a quicktime movie of my albino catfish beeing fed last year. He's much
bigger now:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/catfish_eating.MOV

[Reel McKoi]

"scs0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
> issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
> mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
> forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
> Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
> with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
> of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
> problems.
>
> I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
> but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
> or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
> ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
> perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
> anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
> tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
> tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
> read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
> the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
> because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
> would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.

## I never saw "clay" soil for sale. I dig it up right behind my house.
Clay soil is just a dense fine particle soil. It also works it's way out of
the pots and all over the pond. It's like mustard when wet. Pond plants
do thrive in it though. For regular gardening I have to add sand and loads
of compost.

> I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
> horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
> when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
> trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
> light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
> still on the market.

## Whatever sells......

> Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
> seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
> adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
> 75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Reel McKoi]

"scs0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >> There's nothing wrong with
> >> a pH of 8 to 8.5.
>
> I've heard that high pH values aren't bad for fish, but I read that
> plants have a difficult time absorbing nurtients with a pH above 7.8 -
> especially the free floating ones. My Hyacinths are looking pretty
> sad and from what I read a high pH will cause the symptoms that I have
> seen with them.

## Potash perks mine right up! I heaping TBS per 1000 gallons of water.

> Maybe I am being a little too worried over this. The fish seem happy
> and the rooted aquatic plants are growing, since I live in Florida I
> will always have easy access to water hyacinths anytime I want them so
> maybe I should hold off on playing with the pH for a few more weeks.

## I don't even bother to check mine anymore. :-)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
be silent, is the best answer to calumny."
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[Elaine T]

scs0 wrote:
> My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
> issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
> mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
> forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
> Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
> with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
> of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
> problems.
>
> I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
> but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
> or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
> ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
> perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
> anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
> tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
> tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
> read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
> the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
> because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
> would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.
>
> I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
> horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
> when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
> trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
> light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
> still on the market.
>
> Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
> seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
> adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
> 75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)
>
If you still have some pH Down, drop a few drops of it on your rocks,
sand, etc. You'll see bubbles as strong acid reacts with carbonate
minerals if they are going to dissolve and change your pH. It's an
easier test than trying to actually pH test a mineral.

I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now. It's made
from a porous inert ceramic, and comes in fine gravel sized particles.
I'm having no problems with it holding down my plants - I even have some
watercress rooting in it. Maybe you'd like it better than Scotts.

I've had the same problem as you finding plain clay kitty liter. I
can't find anything that doesn't contain perfume or bacteriocides and
they're all labeled "not for garden use."

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[George]

"Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
...

> ## I never saw "clay" soil for sale. I dig it up right behind my house.
> Clay soil is just a dense fine particle soil. It also works it's way out of
> the pots and all over the pond. It's like mustard when wet. Pond plants
> do thrive in it though. For regular gardening I have to add sand and loads
> of compost.

Not likely to be much clay soil where he lives in Florida.

[George]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> scs0 wrote:
>> My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
>> issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
>> mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
>> forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
>> Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
>> with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
>> of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
>> problems.
>>
>> I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
>> but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
>> or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
>> ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
>> perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
>> anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
>> tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
>> tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
>> read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
>> the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
>> because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
>> would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.
>>
>> I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
>> horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
>> when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
>> trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
>> light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
>> still on the market.
>>
>> Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
>> seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
>> adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
>> 75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)
>>
> If you still have some pH Down, drop a few drops of it on your rocks, sand,
> etc. You'll see bubbles as strong acid reacts with carbonate minerals if they
> are going to dissolve and change your pH. It's an easier test than trying to
> actually pH test a mineral.
>
> I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now. It's made from a
> porous inert ceramic, and comes in fine gravel sized particles. I'm having no
> problems with it holding down my plants - I even have some watercress rooting
> in it. Maybe you'd like it better than Scotts.
>
> I've had the same problem as you finding plain clay kitty liter. I can't find
> anything that doesn't contain perfume or bacteriocides and they're all labeled
> "not for garden use."
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Kitty liter is mostly bentonite. You should be able to buy straight bentonite
at a suilding supply store like Lowes.

[scs0]

Tonight I checked my local Lowes and Home Depot and neither had
bentonite clay. Not only that, the employees had never even heard of
it. One even called several other Home Depots in the area and not only
didn't they have it, I could tell from the conversation that the person
on the other end had never heard of it either. I checked the websites
of both and neither had it. Searching on Google was nearly useless as
my search mainly found references to uses with acne and bowel cleaning.

I also went to a local arts and crafts store. They actually did have
clay, but it was roughly $5 a pound - and that's not even in powered
form!

I'm now back to the belief that the only place you can buy clay are
stores that also sell unicorns and perpetual motion machines :(

Can anyone provide the manufacturer or a product number of some sort?

[scs0]

Yea. For me it's either beige sand or gray sand :)

[Crashj]

On or about 25 Apr 2005 11:13:01 -0700, "scs0" > wrote
something like:
<>
>I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
>horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
>when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
>trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
>light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
>still on the market.
That might have been vermiculite, which should not be on the market
anymore due to the asbestos content. Too bad, it made a wonderful pool
and pond liner.

>Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
>seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
>adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
>75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)

AHA! Check your gravel for alkalinity by dropping some in vinegar and
watching for bubbles.
--
Crashj

[[email protected]]

"I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now"

this is very similar to an aquarium product called flourite. of course,
the aquarium variety is much more expensive. this stuff does not change
ph, it's very chemically stable and physically stable. a great choice
for your plants.

[Elaine T]

wrote:
> "I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now"
>
> this is very similar to an aquarium product called flourite. of course,
> the aquarium variety is much more expensive. this stuff does not change
> ph, it's very chemically stable and physically stable. a great choice
> for your plants.
>
Boy is that good news! I was pleased the moment I opened the bag of
Schultz soil because the feel was so similar to Flourite and the bag
said it would ion exchange the same way. My aquarium plants love
Flourite. I've got two fishtanks with it as substrate and even some
pond plants growing happily in the leftovers.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Reel McKoi]

"scs0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yea. For me it's either beige sand or gray sand :)
================================
And I buy my sand at Lowe's. Our soil ranges from a rich black topsoil
(made with compost and sand) and useless red to red-brown clay. Actually
pond plants do well in either of these mixes. But since the red/brown clay
works well for them that's what I use.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[George]

"scs0" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Tonight I checked my local Lowes and Home Depot and neither had
> bentonite clay. Not only that, the employees had never even heard of
> it. One even called several other Home Depots in the area and not only
> didn't they have it, I could tell from the conversation that the person
> on the other end had never heard of it either. I checked the websites
> of both and neither had it. Searching on Google was nearly useless as
> my search mainly found references to uses with acne and bowel cleaning.
>
> I also went to a local arts and crafts store. They actually did have
> clay, but it was roughly $5 a pound - and that's not even in powered
> form!
>
> I'm now back to the belief that the only place you can buy clay are
> stores that also sell unicorns and perpetual motion machines :(
>
> Can anyone provide the manufacturer or a product number of some sort?

The brand name for bentonite I use is volclay. A google search for volclay
suppliers in Florida yielded the following results:

http://www.worldfax.com/Portfolio/Flawaterproofing/profile.html

Florida Waterproofing Supply, Inc.

Another product is Wyoming Bentonite (although almost all of it comes from
Wyoming)

http://www.floridapump.com/linecard.htm

Florida pump - They sell wyoming bentonite made by Wyo-Ben

If there are any drilling suppliers in your area, most likely they will have it
as well. But if Florida pump is in your area, I'd try them first.

Here is a list of possible drilling suppliers in Florida:

http://www.enviroyellowpages.com/search/search.htm?sCategory=Drilling+%26+Boring+Equipment +%26+Supplies&sCompany=&sCity=&sEdition=FL&sRegion=United+States&search=

I know it can be frustrating to find this stuff, but be patient. Good luck. If
you need more help, don't hesitate to ask for it. That is what we are here for.
Oh, there are two products out there, powder and pellets. If you can get the
pellets, do so. They are easier to use and make less of a mess than the powder.
But the powder will work just as well.

[George]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> "I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now"
>
> this is very similar to an aquarium product called flourite. of course,
> the aquarium variety is much more expensive. this stuff does not change
> ph, it's very chemically stable and physically stable. a great choice
> for your plants.

I did a brand search for "Schultz" on home depot's web site, and this is all I
found:

&MID=9876

By the way, I don't know who is selling an aquarium product named fluorite, but
if it is the mineral (calcium fluoride), you definitely don't want to use it
unless you wat to poison your pond. Probably, it is not the same thing.

[George]

"George" > wrote in message
news:LOibe.16122$c24.15350@attbi_s72...
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> "I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now"
>>
>> this is very similar to an aquarium product called flourite. of course,
>> the aquarium variety is much more expensive. this stuff does not change
>> ph, it's very chemically stable and physically stable. a great choice
>> for your plants.
>
> I did a brand search for "Schultz" on home depot's web site, and this is all I
> found:
>
> &MID=9876
>
> By the way, I don't know who is selling an aquarium product named fluorite,
> but if it is the mineral (calcium fluoride), you definitely don't want to use
> it unless you wat to poison your pond. Probably, it is not the same thing.

I checked Schultz's web site and their product is made of 100% fullers earth,
which you should be able to get much cheaper at a ceramic supply shop.

http://www.pondbiz.com/home/pb1/page_264_8/schultz_aquatic_plant_soil.html

[Elaine T]

George wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>"I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now"
>>
>>this is very similar to an aquarium product called flourite. of course,
>>the aquarium variety is much more expensive. this stuff does not change
>>ph, it's very chemically stable and physically stable. a great choice
>>for your plants.
>
>
> I did a brand search for "Schultz" on home depot's web site, and this is all I
> found:
>
> &MID=9876
>
> By the way, I don't know who is selling an aquarium product named fluorite, but
> if it is the mineral (calcium fluoride), you definitely don't want to use it
> unless you wat to poison your pond. Probably, it is not the same thing.
>
>
It doesn't appear to be in Home Depot's online catalog. Here's a link
and description.
http://www.pondbiz.com/home/pb1/page_264_8/schultz_aquatic_plant_soil.html

I was confused by the Flourite name and the mineral too. Seachem
Flourite is a mined iron-rich laterite clay broken into 2-3 mm gravel.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[George]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
. ..
> George wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>>>"I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now"
>>>
>>>this is very similar to an aquarium product called flourite. of course,
>>>the aquarium variety is much more expensive. this stuff does not change
>>>ph, it's very chemically stable and physically stable. a great choice
>>>for your plants.
>>
>>
>> I did a brand search for "Schultz" on home depot's web site, and this is all
>> I found:
>>
>> &MID=9876
>>
>> By the way, I don't know who is selling an aquarium product named fluorite,
>> but if it is the mineral (calcium fluoride), you definitely don't want to use
>> it unless you wat to poison your pond. Probably, it is not the same thing.
> It doesn't appear to be in Home Depot's online catalog. Here's a link and
> description.
> http://www.pondbiz.com/home/pb1/page_264_8/schultz_aquatic_plant_soil.html
>
> I was confused by the Flourite name and the mineral too. Seachem Flourite is
> a mined iron-rich laterite clay broken into 2-3 mm gravel.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Aluminum isn't very toxic to fish, though they might get Alzheimers later.

[Derek Broughton]

Reel McKoi wrote:

>
> "scs0" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> >> There's nothing wrong with
>> >> a pH of 8 to 8.5.
>>
>> I've heard that high pH values aren't bad for fish, but I read that
>> plants have a difficult time absorbing nurtients with a pH above 7.8 -
>> especially the free floating ones. My Hyacinths are looking pretty
>> sad and from what I read a high pH will cause the symptoms that I have
>> seen with them.
>
> ## Potash perks mine right up! I heaping TBS per 1000 gallons of water.
>
>> Maybe I am being a little too worried over this. The fish seem happy
>> and the rooted aquatic plants are growing, since I live in Florida I
>> will always have easy access to water hyacinths anytime I want them so
>> maybe I should hold off on playing with the pH for a few more weeks.
>
> ## I don't even bother to check mine anymore. :-)

There's nothing wrong with a pH of 8 to 8.5 - but it's true that some plants
won't do so well at that level (most of them should still do alright,
though). But the figures I saw from scsi were 7-8. Trying to get your pH
outside that range is just way too much work for too little gain.
--
derek

[scs0]

I just noticed that my reply that I made earlier in the day didn't
appear on the board. I wanted to make sure you knew that I was able to
buy a few bags of clay using that second link you provided. The place
was only about 6 miles from my house too. Thanks a lot, I really
appreciate the searching that you did!

I repotted two of my lilies with the stuff and man does it make a firm
planting medium. I even mixed it with my local sandy soil and it was
still strong stuff. One problem I've had with placing gravel on the
tops of pots is that it seemed to get kicked out by the fish, so I
mixed clay with a lot of gravel and packed it onto the top of the pots.
It really seemed to seal those gravel together.

Thanks for the tips, I'm going to enjoy seeing how pots with lots of
clay work and hold up as planting medium.

[Reel McKoi]

"Derek Broughton" > wrote in message
...
> Reel McKoi wrote:
>
> >
> > "scs0" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >> >> There's nothing wrong with
> >> >> a pH of 8 to 8.5.
> >>
> >> I've heard that high pH values aren't bad for fish, but I read that
> >> plants have a difficult time absorbing nurtients with a pH above 7.8 -
> >> especially the free floating ones. My Hyacinths are looking pretty
> >> sad and from what I read a high pH will cause the symptoms that I have
> >> seen with them.
> >
> > ## Potash perks mine right up! I heaping TBS per 1000 gallons of water.
> >
> >> Maybe I am being a little too worried over this. The fish seem happy
> >> and the rooted aquatic plants are growing, since I live in Florida I
> >> will always have easy access to water hyacinths anytime I want them so
> >> maybe I should hold off on playing with the pH for a few more weeks.
> >
> > ## I don't even bother to check mine anymore. :-)
>
> There's nothing wrong with a pH of 8 to 8.5 - but it's true that some
plants
> won't do so well at that level (most of them should still do alright,
> though). But the figures I saw from scsi were 7-8. Trying to get your pH
> outside that range is just way too much work for too little gain.
> --
> derek
=============================
I agree. Also, as long as my fish thrive, and they are, I'm not going to
replace my PH test kit.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[George]

"scs0" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I just noticed that my reply that I made earlier in the day didn't
> appear on the board. I wanted to make sure you knew that I was able to
> buy a few bags of clay using that second link you provided. The place
> was only about 6 miles from my house too. Thanks a lot, I really
> appreciate the searching that you did!
>
> I repotted two of my lilies with the stuff and man does it make a firm
> planting medium. I even mixed it with my local sandy soil and it was
> still strong stuff. One problem I've had with placing gravel on the
> tops of pots is that it seemed to get kicked out by the fish, so I
> mixed clay with a lot of gravel and packed it onto the top of the pots.
> It really seemed to seal those gravel together.
>
> Thanks for the tips, I'm going to enjoy seeing how pots with lots of
> clay work and hold up as planting medium.

Glad I could help. It should work well for you. Just don't overfill the pots
because this stuff expands like crazy when it gets wet. Make sure to wet it
thoroughly and let it expand fully before you use it.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On 25 Apr 2005 11:18:17 -0700, "scs0" > wrote:

>I've heard that high pH values aren't bad for fish, but I read that
>plants have a difficult time absorbing nurtients with a pH above 7.8 -
>especially the free floating ones. My Hyacinths are looking pretty
>sad and from what I read a high pH will cause the symptoms that I have
>seen with them.

I had this problem with my lily pond last year. What worked was upping the
alkalinity with baking soda 4 lbs/1,000 and water changes, 15% every other
day for about 8 days. pH stayed stable after that. Never did figure out why
it went sky high. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Peter Breed]

Hi,
I have been having similar problems with my 7 month old, 2000L (I think
thats 550 US gal) linered pond.
First I should say that my ponds KH has been fairly constant ~150mg
CaCO3 per litre, the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite have been fine. The
fish that have been in there for the last 6 months are healthy, but
recent introductions got a bit of a shock. I tried everying I could find
on pond sites, various propietery pH lowering agents and adding calcium
chloride, and adding sodium bicarbonate. They all had either a temporary
affect but didn't last, or no affect at all. The pH keeps drifting up to
9+. I think I've finally at least pinpointed the problem on aquarium
sites: Carbon dioxide.
2HCO3- = CO3(2-) + CO2 + H2O
If CO2 isn't getting into the ponds fast enough plants will take CO2
from bicarbonate leaving carbonate. Carbonate is much more basic than
bicarbonate, hence as the either algae or other submerged plants grow,
they make the pond more basic. This seems to be confirmed by the fact
that the pH drift of my pond is faster on sunny days than on overcast ones.
The only long term solution I can think of is to increase the shade -
probably by growing a more vigourous lilly.
In the short term I tried adding several bottles of cheap carbonated
mineral water, which had a much stronger affect than I expected leading
to 6L lead to a reduction of nearly 1 pH point (8.8 -> 7.9). This is not
to be recommend I really should haved tested some on a bucket first and
tried to move the pH by about 0.2 per day.
In the medium term the mineral water bottles were filled with a sugar
and yeast solution attached to an air stone to slowly deliver CO2 to the
water.
I guess working on 500 gallons is more manageable than 3600, I don't
know how my temporary solutions would scale up. I would definately
recommend monitoring your KH. If the KH is relatively constant, the pH
problem cannot be related to leaching of basic compounds into the water.

Peter Breed

PS I have a couple of degrees in chemisty, and I work as chemistry
researcher so as you'd guess I have given this alot of considered
thought and research.
scs0 wrote:
> My pH is around 9 and I cannot get it to go down. In about a week's
> time I've put in 3 bottles of Beckett pH Lower and now I've been adding
> a granular pH reducer with no success.
>
> The pond is roughly 3600 gallons. Even though the pond is about 3
> weeks old and young ponds can show screwy pH values, I cannot explain
> the failure to reduce the pH because:
> 1) Ammonia level is 0
> 2) Total Alkalinity is around 100 (the tester shows a color that's
> about halfway between the one for 80 and the next for 120)
> 3) The rock border is not limestone. I don't know what it is, but I
> ensured that the rocks that I bought were not limestone.
>
> Sometimes the pH is a bit lower in the morning and I finally think that
> the pH is finally going to a good value but in the afternoon I'm back
> up to 9. It might actually be higher since 9 is the highest my tester
> will go.
>
> I have several plants that are potted in the sandy Florida soil and I
> cover the pots with that standard tan gravel found at Lowes. Some of
> my pots are on bricks, but bricks are made from clay and that's not
> known for changing pH values like concrete block.
>
> Some of my plants seem to be suffering from the high pH values. The
> new leaves on my Water Hyacinths have turned yellow and some other
> plants and aborb their nutrients directly from the water are not
> looking too good.
>
> I'm starting to get angry about this and I'm dumping larger quantities
> of pH reducer in the pond. I'm afraid that something might be
> preventing these chemicals from doing what they're supposed to be doing
> then all of a sudden my pH will drop to 5!
>
> What's going on?
>

[Elaine T]

Peter Breed wrote:
> Hi,
> I have been having similar problems with my 7 month old, 2000L (I think
> thats 550 US gal) linered pond.
> First I should say that my ponds KH has been fairly constant ~150mg
> CaCO3 per litre, the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite have been fine. The
> fish that have been in there for the last 6 months are healthy, but
> recent introductions got a bit of a shock. I tried everying I could find
> on pond sites, various propietery pH lowering agents and adding calcium
> chloride, and adding sodium bicarbonate. They all had either a temporary
> affect but didn't last, or no affect at all. The pH keeps drifting up to
> 9+. I think I've finally at least pinpointed the problem on aquarium
> sites: Carbon dioxide.
> 2HCO3- = CO3(2-) + CO2 + H2O
> If CO2 isn't getting into the ponds fast enough plants will take CO2
> from bicarbonate leaving carbonate. Carbonate is much more basic than
> bicarbonate, hence as the either algae or other submerged plants grow,
> they make the pond more basic. This seems to be confirmed by the fact
> that the pH drift of my pond is faster on sunny days than on overcast ones.
> The only long term solution I can think of is to increase the shade -
> probably by growing a more vigourous lilly.
> In the short term I tried adding several bottles of cheap carbonated
> mineral water, which had a much stronger affect than I expected leading
> to 6L lead to a reduction of nearly 1 pH point (8.8 -> 7.9). This is not
> to be recommend I really should haved tested some on a bucket first and
> tried to move the pH by about 0.2 per day.
> In the medium term the mineral water bottles were filled with a sugar
> and yeast solution attached to an air stone to slowly deliver CO2 to the
> water.
> I guess working on 500 gallons is more manageable than 3600, I don't
> know how my temporary solutions would scale up. I would definately
> recommend monitoring your KH. If the KH is relatively constant, the pH
> problem cannot be related to leaching of basic compounds into the water.
>
> Peter Breed
>
> PS I have a couple of degrees in chemisty, and I work as chemistry
> researcher so as you'd guess I have given this alot of considered
> thought and research.

There is a Seachem fishtank additive called Flourish Excel that provides
a carbon supplement to aquatic plants. Seachem claims it provides 70%
of the growth of CO2 supplementation, and the plants will use it first
before they start sucking carbonates out of the water. Apparantly algae
don't use the compound well, so it's great for helping plants grow
faster than algae. I've been using it in aquaria with great success and
it may be an easier long term solution than yeast bottles, although more
costly. It is toxic to Anacharis, though.

Only true aquatics (and algae) need dissolved CO2 - I suppose this is
why you're able to get results with yeast CO2 on 500 gallons. Anything
with leaves exposed to the air - lilies, floater, marginals, will use
atmospheric C02 because it's more readily available. If you switch to
Flourish Excel, you'll need to dose much more lightly than on a
fishtank. To give you an idea, it takes two 2l yeast sugar and water
bottles to provide adequate CO2 to a 55 gallon tank full of fast-growing
plants.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com