AVERAGE LIFE OF YELLOW TANG - UPDATE

[Russ J.]

I didn't realize my question would spark such a controversy!

Here is an update.:
My tank ( 75 gallon FO) is quite near the water meter into the house. I have
a Fluke Digital VOM used for work. Model 12 -- pretty good unit. I measured
the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to the tank water -- by sticking
the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I
then began unplugging equipment. First the heater. - dropped 6 volts to 42
VAC. Next the UV - Dropped 2 more volts. Then the Empereor 400 dropped
another 2 volts. Then the Flouresent lamp dropped 2 more volts. Then the
Eheim filter -- another 2 volts. Then the skimmer another 2 volts. When
EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC. I put the
ground probe in the water attached to the water line. Voltage went to .009
Volts AC. I watched the fish to see if proximity to the probe changed their
behavior - Nope. I reconnected everyhing and the voltage went to .011 VAC.
That's an increase of only 2 millivolts. I'm going to keep the ground probe
in the tank and see if the LLE on the Tang begins to reverse. I'll post my
results.
( I'll also be very careful not to drop anything in the water !)

Russ

--
Russell Jankowski


A.M. SERVICE
440-333-4923

[Pszemol]

Mr. Jankowski, how about measuring the CURRENT instead of the VOLTAGE?

If you do not have connection to ground you WILL NOT FEEL the voltage.

Have you ever observed birds sitting on a high voltage power lines?
They do not care about the voltage to ground when they do not touch
the ground. The same is with your fish: they do not care about the
voltage between the water and your copper pipes BECAUSE THEY DO NOT
TOUCH THE COPPER PIPES.

If you were able to attach your voltmeter between the bird's wing
and the ground you would measure thousands of volts. Would you consider
a good idea to connect the wire between its wing and ground to "neutralize"
the voltage? Think about it... what current would flow from bird's legs
to its wings after you connect your "birds grounding probe"? :-))

[CheezWiz]

As stated by P but differently:
The average difference of potential between a persons feet and head is 500
volts.
But there is no current to go with that potential.

One of the coolest experiments I did when I was first learning about such
things is suspend a wire 5 feet in the air insulated at both ends. Then
ground it through a 10 megaohm resistor and measure the voltage. (To prove
the previous statement)

Same holds true with the tank UNLESS there is a damaged component.
In that case, the said tank components had BETTER be connected to a GFCI!

Otherwise, a failure can boil your tank!

As for the health benefits, I think it is like wearing a magnetic bracelet
to cure carpel tunnel syndrome.

The grounding probe is for safety when used with a GFCI only..

IMHO
CW

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> Mr. Jankowski, how about measuring the CURRENT instead of the VOLTAGE?
>
> If you do not have connection to ground you WILL NOT FEEL the voltage.
>
> Have you ever observed birds sitting on a high voltage power lines?
> They do not care about the voltage to ground when they do not touch
> the ground. The same is with your fish: they do not care about the
> voltage between the water and your copper pipes BECAUSE THEY DO NOT
> TOUCH THE COPPER PIPES.
> If you were able to attach your voltmeter between the bird's wing
> and the ground you would measure thousands of volts. Would you consider
> a good idea to connect the wire between its wing and ground to
> "neutralize"
> the voltage? Think about it... what current would flow from bird's legs
> to its wings after you connect your "birds grounding probe"? :-))

[Russ J.]

Thanks,

I am installing a GFCI this weekend. I will then see what measurments I get.
Should have done this anyway - being around water.

[Pszemol]

"Russ J." > wrote in message . ..
> I am installing a GFCI this weekend.
> I will then see what measurments I get.

I do not expect GFCI doing any miracles with your measurments.

[George]

"Russ J." > wrote in message
. ..
> Thanks,
>
> I am installing a GFCI this weekend. I will then see what measurments I get.
> Should have done this anyway - being around water.
>

Good luck. It really is the proper thing to do. Your fish will thank you for
it. And it will make working around the tank much safer.

[George]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "Russ J." > wrote in message
> . ..
>> I am installing a GFCI this weekend.
>> I will then see what measurments I get.
>
> I do not expect GFCI doing any miracles with your measurments.

A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is
any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as
4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second. It
will prevent the tank from going "live". If any appliances are leaking current,
it will let you know, and won't let the voltage flow again until the problem is
fixed. Anyone not using them is asking for trouble. In many cities, they are
now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are live wires and water.
Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
this industry as well.

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message news:7PSee.61138$WI3.45634@attbi_s71...
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Russ J." > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> I am installing a GFCI this weekend.
>>> I will then see what measurments I get.
>>
>> I do not expect GFCI doing any miracles with your measurments.
>
> A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is
> any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as small as
> 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a second. It
> will prevent the tank from going "live". If any appliances are leaking current,
> it will let you know, and won't let the voltage flow again until the problem is
> fixed. Anyone not using them is asking for trouble. In many cities, they are
> now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are live wires and water.
> Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
> this industry as well.

Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!

If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

[George Patterson]

George wrote:
>
> In many cities, they are
> now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are live wires and water.

This is also in the national electrical code. All bathroom outlets, outside
outlets, and outlets over kitchen counters must be protected with a GFCI
breaker. They're also highly recommended (and in some areas required) in any
room with a concrete floor. Here in New Jersey, the buyer is required to install
them in bathrooms and kitchens in houses which do not have them when the house
is sold.

There's also a circuit breaker that's similar that's now required for any
circuit that services a bedroom wall outlet. Can't remember the name (something
like BFI), but its purpose is to prevent electrical fires.

> Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
> this industry as well.

Bet you're right. I'm not looking forward to crawling upside down under my
cabinet stand, but I'll be putting one in as soon as I find my round twoit (and
my back brace :-) ).

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[George]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:7PSee.61138$WI3.45634@attbi_s71...
>> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Russ J." > wrote in message
>>> . ..
>>>> I am installing a GFCI this weekend.
>>>> I will then see what measurments I get.
>>>
>>> I do not expect GFCI doing any miracles with your measurments.
>>
>> A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there
>> is any imbalance, it trips the circuit. It is able to sense a mismatch as
>> small as 4 or 5 milliamps, and it can react as quickly as one-thirtieth of a
>> second. It will prevent the tank from going "live". If any appliances are
>> leaking current, it will let you know, and won't let the voltage flow again
>> until the problem is fixed. Anyone not using them is asking for trouble. In
>> many cities, they are now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there are
>> live wires and water. Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect
>> regulations to change for this industry as well.
>
> Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
> I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!
>
> If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
> between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
> I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
> Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will likely
carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more than
enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after this
happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.

[George]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:qXUee.1096$7G.1039@trndny01...
> George wrote:
>>
>> In many cities, they are now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there
>> are live wires and water.
>
> This is also in the national electrical code. All bathroom outlets, outside
> outlets, and outlets over kitchen counters must be protected with a GFCI
> breaker. They're also highly recommended (and in some areas required) in any
> room with a concrete floor. Here in New Jersey, the buyer is required to
> install them in bathrooms and kitchens in houses which do not have them when
> the house is sold.
>
> There's also a circuit breaker that's similar that's now required for any
> circuit that services a bedroom wall outlet. Can't remember the name
> (something like BFI), but its purpose is to prevent electrical fires.
>
>> Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
>> this industry as well.
>
> Bet you're right. I'm not looking forward to crawling upside down under my
> cabinet stand, but I'll be putting one in as soon as I find my round twoit
> (and my back brace :-) ).
>
> George Patterson
> There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
> mashed potatoes.

lol.

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message news:TRZee.61608$WI3.54789@attbi_s71...
>> Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
>> I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!
>>
>> If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
>> between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
>> I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
>> Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)
>
> It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will likely
> carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more than
> enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after this
> happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.

I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words
Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

[George]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:TRZee.61608$WI3.54789@attbi_s71...
>>> Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
>>> I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!
>>>
>>> If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
>>> between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
>>> I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
>>> Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)
>>
>> It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will
>> likely carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more
>> than enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after
>> this happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.
>
> I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
> His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.
>
> Please read his original words
>
> Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "

So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe the
voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances. He also said in a later
post "I am installing a GFCI this weekend. I will then see what measurments I
get. Should have done this anyway - being around water." So we will have to
wait and see what his results are. I suspect that if he plugs all of the same
equipment (the ones that showed voltage leakage according to his measurements)
into that GFCI, it will trip the circuit, shutting off the power. He will
likely have to replace some of this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from
tripping.

[pausto]

"Russ J." wrote:
>
> I didn't realize my question would spark such a controversy!
>
> Here is an update.:
> My tank ( 75 gallon FO) is quite near the water meter into the house. I have
> a Fluke Digital VOM used for work. Model 12 -- pretty good unit. I measured
> the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to the tank water -- by sticking
> the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I
> then began unplugging equipment. First the heater. - dropped 6 volts to 42
> VAC. Next the UV - Dropped 2 more volts. Then the Empereor 400 dropped
> another 2 volts. Then the Flouresent lamp dropped 2 more volts. Then the
> Eheim filter -- another 2 volts. Then the skimmer another 2 volts. When
> EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC. I put the
> ground probe in the water attached to the water line. Voltage went to .009
> Volts AC. I watched the fish to see if proximity to the probe changed their
> behavior - Nope. I reconnected everyhing and the voltage went to .011 VAC.
> That's an increase of only 2 millivolts. I'm going to keep the ground probe
> in the tank and see if the LLE on the Tang begins to reverse. I'll post my
> results.
> ( I'll also be very careful not to drop anything in the water !)
>
> Russ

Digital meters are notorious for detecting stray voltages that
have no appreciable current flow producing ability. Try
re-reading with a cheep analog meter (I keep one taped to the
back of my Fluke :)

Paul

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message news:X0gfe.63729$WI3.37219@attbi_s71...
>> I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
>> His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.
>>
>> Please read his original words
>>
>> Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?
>
> No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
> the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
> measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "
>
> So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
> equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe the
> voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances.

You have stopped your reading too soon. He wrote:
"When EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC."
I admit, I mentioned incorrectly 48V, but 32VAC makes not a big difference.
When all devices are unpluged we have the proof that 32VAC is NOT coming
from these devices. And GFCI will not change the readings.

We can make some efforts to explain what is the possible source of
his 32VAC but this is a different story... It could be even his
local radio station and his tank acts like an RF antenna...
It does not matter. His high impedance voltmeter will pick up
any voltages, even from the air, and it does not mean his devices
are leaking electricity, what was prooven with unplugging them all
and still recording non-zero reading.

> I suspect that if he plugs all of the same
> equipment (the ones that showed voltage leakage according to his measurements)
> into that GFCI, it will trip the circuit, shutting off the power. He will
> likely have to replace some of this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from
> tripping.

And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

[Boomer]

George you just can't seem to get a fix on the subject matter but just like to argue :-)

"So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank"

NO IT DOES NOT

Almost anything electrical will produce "Induced Voltage", without any leaking what so
ever. Electrical equipment produces a electrical filed, which cause induced voltage ,
i.e.. wires, motors, lights, sockets. You can actually take a 10 gal aquarium full of
seawater and stick in front of a wall socket and it will induce a few volts. YOU DO NOT
NEED CURRENT TO GET VOLTAGE. A lamp cord going to a lamp on the table and passing behind
you tank can induce voltageint the water. We have beat this subject to death over the
years, do a search on it, here or the internet. There are many articles on it, some by
electrical engineers, who have tested and studied it well. Do you know what an Amp-Clamp
is and how it works ? Most voltages in the aquarium are meaningless. 48 volts is nothing,
start getting worried when it reads 90 or 100, etc. that is a leak. After years of debate
it is felt by most authorities always install a Grounding probe and GFCI.

So, do you want to listen this time or argue ??

Have a nice day

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

[George]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:X0gfe.63729$WI3.37219@attbi_s71...
>>> I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
>>> His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.
>>>
>>> Please read his original words
>>>
>>> Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?
>>
>> No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
>> the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
>> measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "
>>
>> So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
>> equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe
>> the voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances.
>
> You have stopped your reading too soon. He wrote:
> "When EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC."
> I admit, I mentioned incorrectly 48V, but 32VAC makes not a big difference.
> When all devices are unpluged we have the proof that 32VAC is NOT coming
> from these devices. And GFCI will not change the readings.

Sir. If there are 32 VAC in the tank, I assure you that the GFCI will trip.
Obviously he missed something. When I first checked out voltages in my tank, I
got a reading in the 30 volt range. One by one I disconnected appliances, and
found that all were contributing small voltages to the tank. When I finally had
all appliances not just turned off, but unplugged, the voltage went to 0.


> We can make some efforts to explain what is the possible source of
> his 32VAC but this is a different story... It could be even his
> local radio station and his tank acts like an RF antenna...
> It does not matter. His high impedance voltmeter will pick up
> any voltages, even from the air, and it does not mean his devices
> are leaking electricity, what was prooven with unplugging them all
> and still recording non-zero reading.

It means that he either missed an appliance or that he is picking up stray
voltages. Picking up stray voltages doesn't mean that the tank itself it
charged. If he is using a copper water pipe in the house for a ground
connection, maybe that is a source of the stray readings, since copper pipes
make good AM antannas, for instance. He should use the ground in his wall
outlet, or even better, a filtered ground from a battery backup device for a
computer. My understanding is digital voltmeters are more susceptible to stray
voltage readings, but usually those are in the millivolt, not volts range. I
have radio shack's "best" analogue multimeter, and it seems to be pretty
accurate.

>> I suspect that if he plugs all of the same equipment (the ones that showed
>> voltage leakage according to his measurements) into that GFCI, it will trip
>> the circuit, shutting off the power. He will likely have to replace some of
>> this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from tripping.
>
> And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
> His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
> his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
> and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

Well, that has no been my experience, so we'll have to see what his result is.

[George]

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
> George you just can't seem to get a fix on the subject matter but just like to
> argue :-)
>
> "So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
> equipment was leaking current into the tank"
>
> NO IT DOES NOT

If he unplugged the appliances one by one and got a voltage drop each time
(which he did), it certainly does mean that the voltages are coming from the
appliances. Oh, and I do understand about induced voltages, and have posted a
couple of articles about it right here in this newsgroup. Regardless of whether
the voltages are induced or leaking, if those voltages induce a current in the
water, you can get shocked, the animals in the tank can be adversely affected,
and a GFCI WILL trip. That is all I'm saying here.

> Almost anything electrical will produce "Induced Voltage", without any leaking
> what so
> ever. Electrical equipment produces a electrical filed, which cause induced
> voltage ,
> i.e.. wires, motors, lights, sockets. You can actually take a 10 gal aquarium
> full of
> seawater and stick in front of a wall socket and it will induce a few volts.
> YOU DO NOT
> NEED CURRENT TO GET VOLTAGE. A lamp cord going to a lamp on the table and
> passing behind
> you tank can induce voltageint the water. We have beat this subject to death
> over the
> years, do a search on it, here or the internet. There are many articles on it,
> some by
> electrical engineers, who have tested and studied it well. Do you know what an
> Amp-Clamp
> is and how it works ? Most voltages in the aquarium are meaningless. 48 volts
> is nothing,
> start getting worried when it reads 90 or 100, etc. that is a leak. After
> years of debate
> it is felt by most authorities always install a Grounding probe and GFCI.

A ground fault interupter is what I have been recommending in nearly all of my
posts about this issue, including the first one I posted regarding this issue.
If YOU had been paying attention to my posts a little more carefully, you would
have noted that.

> So, do you want to listen this time or argue ??
>
> Have a nice day

Do you want to shut the **** up and stop trolling me, or what?

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message news:SMxfe.67538$WI3.26796@attbi_s71...
> Sir. If there are 32 VAC in the tank, I assure you that the GFCI will trip.
> Obviously he missed something.

Assuming he missed a device - you are right...
But give this man a credit - if he is saying he unplugged EVERYTHING
then I believe him, because I can understand how can high-impedance
voltameter give a false voltage reading. Measuring voltages with digital
meter is not a good idea in this particular case... Better the meter
is, the better chance he has to measure it WRONG, since better
meter will have in most cases, larger input impedance, making it
hard to measure correctly risk in this particular case...

If he said he is measuring 20mA flowing from tank to ground and
nothing is plugged to the wall, then I would be sceptical...
But voltages, without measuring current - that I can believe.

> When I first checked out voltages in my tank, I
> got a reading in the 30 volt range. One by one I disconnected appliances, and
> found that all were contributing small voltages to the tank. When I finally had
> all appliances not just turned off, but unplugged, the voltage went to 0.

The only correct measurement of the quality of insulation
is an insulation meter, which applies 600-1000V to the
device and measures the current flowing through the insulator.
If it passes the test at 600V you can be sure nothing wrong
is with the device at 120V. Measuring voltages between water
and copper pipe is not a good way to approach the matter.

> It means that he either missed an appliance or that he is picking up stray
> voltages. Picking up stray voltages doesn't mean that the tank itself it
> charged. If he is using a copper water pipe in the house for a ground
> connection, maybe that is a source of the stray readings, since copper pipes
> make good AM antannas, for instance. He should use the ground in his wall
> outlet, or even better, a filtered ground from a battery backup device for a
> computer. My understanding is digital voltmeters are more susceptible to stray
> voltage readings, but usually those are in the millivolt, not volts range. I
> have radio shack's "best" analogue multimeter, and it seems to be pretty
> accurate.

If his copper piping is not grouded he could have the false reading as well.
You are right. But what are the chances his water line is not grounded?
Mosta likely it will be connected with delivery pipe dug under ground.
So usually it is a good source of ground, unless there is a break in
copper lines and you go from metal to plastic (PVC) and back to coper.
Again - blindly assuming anything is wrong... If you want your measurements
be accurate you cannot "assume" anythin, you need to verify everything.
And I would start with checking if what I assume is a good ground (his
copper pipes) is really good ground... Eliminating so trivial mistake
like not unplugging a faulty device giving this 32V reading nothing else
comes to my mind than his tank water, conducting electricity almost as good
as metal acts as antenna, or his pipes are not really grounded...

>> And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
>> His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
>> his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
>> and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.
>
> Well, that has no been my experience, so we'll have to see what his result is.

We will see. But if he trully had unplugged all devices and still had
32VAC than adding GFCI will not change the reading nor cause GFCI to trip.

[George]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:SMxfe.67538$WI3.26796@attbi_s71...
>> Sir. If there are 32 VAC in the tank, I assure you that the GFCI will trip.
>> Obviously he missed something.
>
> Assuming he missed a device - you are right...
> But give this man a credit - if he is saying he unplugged EVERYTHING
> then I believe him, because I can understand how can high-impedance
> voltameter give a false voltage reading. Measuring voltages with digital
> meter is not a good idea in this particular case... Better the meter
> is, the better chance he has to measure it WRONG, since better
> meter will have in most cases, larger input impedance, making it
> hard to measure correctly risk in this particular case...
>
> If he said he is measuring 20mA flowing from tank to ground and
> nothing is plugged to the wall, then I would be sceptical...
> But voltages, without measuring current - that I can believe.
>
>> When I first checked out voltages in my tank, I got a reading in the 30 volt
>> range. One by one I disconnected appliances, and found that all were
>> contributing small voltages to the tank. When I finally had all appliances
>> not just turned off, but unplugged, the voltage went to 0.
>
> The only correct measurement of the quality of insulation
> is an insulation meter, which applies 600-1000V to the
> device and measures the current flowing through the insulator.
> If it passes the test at 600V you can be sure nothing wrong
> is with the device at 120V. Measuring voltages between water
> and copper pipe is not a good way to approach the matter.
>
>> It means that he either missed an appliance or that he is picking up stray
>> voltages. Picking up stray voltages doesn't mean that the tank itself it
>> charged. If he is using a copper water pipe in the house for a ground
>> connection, maybe that is a source of the stray readings, since copper pipes
>> make good AM antannas, for instance. He should use the ground in his wall
>> outlet, or even better, a filtered ground from a battery backup device for a
>> computer. My understanding is digital voltmeters are more susceptible to
>> stray voltage readings, but usually those are in the millivolt, not volts
>> range. I have radio shack's "best" analogue multimeter, and it seems to be
>> pretty accurate.
>
> If his copper piping is not grouded he could have the false reading as well.
> You are right. But what are the chances his water line is not grounded?
> Mosta likely it will be connected with delivery pipe dug under ground.
> So usually it is a good source of ground, unless there is a break in
> copper lines and you go from metal to plastic (PVC) and back to coper.
> Again - blindly assuming anything is wrong... If you want your measurements
> be accurate you cannot "assume" anythin, you need to verify everything.
> And I would start with checking if what I assume is a good ground (his
> copper pipes) is really good ground... Eliminating so trivial mistake
> like not unplugging a faulty device giving this 32V reading nothing else
> comes to my mind than his tank water, conducting electricity almost as good
> as metal acts as antenna, or his pipes are not really grounded...
>
>>> And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
>>> His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
>>> his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
>>> and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.
>>
>> Well, that has no been my experience, so we'll have to see what his result
>> is.
>
> We will see. But if he trully had unplugged all devices and still had
> 32VAC than adding GFCI will not change the reading nor cause GFCI to trip.

If you assume that the 32 VAC carries no current. If it does, GFCI will likely
trip.

[R J]

Well, I didn't get the GFI in this weekend ! Mother's day and other things.
I would be curious if any of the group tried the same measurments with a
digial meter.

The place I grabbed the ground was at the INPUT to my main water meter. (
this should be connected directly undergound to the street feed. I don't
think I have a better place to connect it. No 8 foot ground stakes.

I'll post my results when I get the GFCI installed. I agree with George that
if a small amount of current was flowing to ground the GFCI would probably
trip. Yes I could have the high voltage because of a sensitive Digital VOM -
it's a FLUKE 12. I'll see if I can borrow a cheap analog and try the
measurements Before I put in the GFCI.
Russ


"pausto" > wrote in message
...
> "Russ J." wrote:
>>
>> I didn't realize my question would spark such a controversy!
>>
>> Here is an update.:
>> My tank ( 75 gallon FO) is quite near the water meter into the house. I
>> have
>> a Fluke Digital VOM used for work. Model 12 -- pretty good unit. I
>> measured
>> the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to the tank water -- by
>> sticking
>> the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I
>> then began unplugging equipment. First the heater. - dropped 6 volts to
>> 42
>> VAC. Next the UV - Dropped 2 more volts. Then the Empereor 400 dropped
>> another 2 volts. Then the Flouresent lamp dropped 2 more volts. Then the
>> Eheim filter -- another 2 volts. Then the skimmer another 2 volts. When
>> EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC. I put
>> the
>> ground probe in the water attached to the water line. Voltage went to
>> .009
>> Volts AC. I watched the fish to see if proximity to the probe changed
>> their
>> behavior - Nope. I reconnected everyhing and the voltage went to .011
>> VAC.
>> That's an increase of only 2 millivolts. I'm going to keep the ground
>> probe
>> in the tank and see if the LLE on the Tang begins to reverse. I'll post
>> my
>> results.
>> ( I'll also be very careful not to drop anything in the water !)
>>
>> Russ
>
> Digital meters are notorious for detecting stray voltages that
> have no appreciable current flow producing ability. Try
> re-reading with a cheep analog meter (I keep one taped to the
> back of my Fluke :)
>
> Paul
>

[Pszemol]

George suspected you did not unplugged all devices
and this was the reason for your 32VAC readings...
Can you confirm you are 100% sure you unplugged them all ?

The other method than cheap-o-analog meter would be to
use your meter but bridge it with a 4 kOhm or similar
resistor and repeat your measurements. This would be
your Fluke pretending to be a cheap-o-analog meter
with low internal impedance like they normally are
instead of its normal impedance which goes into tents
or even hundreds of megaohms :-)

Check this out:
http://www.gmc-instruments.com/english/produkte/metrahit1a.htm
This meter has input resistance: 20 kOhm / V=, 4 kOhm / V~
Let me know if you still have 32VAC on a 4kOhm resistor.
This would be something to worry about IMHO...

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message news:hxDfe.64970$NU4.30481@attbi_s22...
> If you assume that the 32 VAC carries no current.
> If it does, GFCI will likely trip.

There was no device in the water plugged into the wall.
So how could this 32VAC be real or how can it deliver
reasonable current? If it would you could power a small
heater with it and have free energy source ;-)

[George]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:hxDfe.64970$NU4.30481@attbi_s22...
>> If you assume that the 32 VAC carries no current.
>> If it does, GFCI will likely trip.
>
> There was no device in the water plugged into the wall.
> So how could this 32VAC be real or how can it deliver
> reasonable current? If it would you could power a small
> heater with it and have free energy source ;-)

Well, according to him, there was nothing else plugged in, and if that is the
case, then something is inducing a voltage, as you suggested, or his meter is
reading stray voltage. As I've noted, if he missed something, that would
explain the 32 VAC. As for powering a small heater, that would be true if the
voltage had current!

[Pszemol]

"George" > wrote in message news:M9Xfe.67991$r53.10059@attbi_s21...
> Well, according to him, there was nothing else plugged in, and if that is the
> case, then something is inducing a voltage, as you suggested, or his meter is
> reading stray voltage. As I've noted, if he missed something, that would
> explain the 32 VAC. As for powering a small heater, that would be true if the
> voltage had current!

This is funny how it sounds "if the voltage had current"...
I have never heard such expression in my life :-)
But I guess I understand what you are trying to say...

[George Patterson]

R J wrote:
>
> I'll see if I can borrow a cheap analog and try the
> measurements Before I put in the GFCI.

Got a 12 volt automotive tester? I'd be curious to see if there's enough current
there to light it up.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

[pausto]

Remember, in order for a GFCI to trip, any current that leaks
from one of the plugged in devices, has to be able to flow to
ground. This could be through the body of a grounded person
reaching into the tank, or through a ground probe installed in
the tank.

Once the GFCI is installed, any worrisome components should
readily show themselves. However, timing the installation for a
weekend, so you can keep half a vigilant eye on the system,
wouldn't be a bad idea.

Good luck. Let us know what you find.

Paul

R J wrote:
>
> Well, I didn't get the GFI in this weekend ! Mother's day and other things.
> I would be curious if any of the group tried the same measurments with a
> digial meter.
>
> The place I grabbed the ground was at the INPUT to my main water meter. (
> this should be connected directly undergound to the street feed. I don't
> think I have a better place to connect it. No 8 foot ground stakes.
>
> I'll post my results when I get the GFCI installed. I agree with George that
> if a small amount of current was flowing to ground the GFCI would probably
> trip. Yes I could have the high voltage because of a sensitive Digital VOM -
> it's a FLUKE 12. I'll see if I can borrow a cheap analog and try the
> measurements Before I put in the GFCI.
> Russ
>
> "pausto" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Russ J." wrote:
> >>
> >> I didn't realize my question would spark such a controversy!
> >>
> >> Here is an update.:
> >> My tank ( 75 gallon FO) is quite near the water meter into the house. I
> >> have
> >> a Fluke Digital VOM used for work. Model 12 -- pretty good unit. I
> >> measured
> >> the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to the tank water -- by
> >> sticking
> >> the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I
> >> then began unplugging equipment. First the heater. - dropped 6 volts to
> >> 42
> >> VAC. Next the UV - Dropped 2 more volts. Then the Empereor 400 dropped
> >> another 2 volts. Then the Flouresent lamp dropped 2 more volts. Then the
> >> Eheim filter -- another 2 volts. Then the skimmer another 2 volts. When
> >> EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC. I put
> >> the
> >> ground probe in the water attached to the water line. Voltage went to
> >> .009
> >> Volts AC. I watched the fish to see if proximity to the probe changed
> >> their
> >> behavior - Nope. I reconnected everyhing and the voltage went to .011
> >> VAC.
> >> That's an increase of only 2 millivolts. I'm going to keep the ground
> >> probe
> >> in the tank and see if the LLE on the Tang begins to reverse. I'll post
> >> my
> >> results.
> >> ( I'll also be very careful not to drop anything in the water !)
> >>
> >> Russ
> >
> > Digital meters are notorious for detecting stray voltages that
> > have no appreciable current flow producing ability. Try
> > re-reading with a cheep analog meter (I keep one taped to the
> > back of my Fluke :)
> >
> > Paul
> >

[Boomer]

"If he unplugged the appliances one by one and got a voltage drop each time
(which he did), it certainly does mean that the voltages are coming from the
appliances. "

It does not mean it is voltage with amps. Voltage does not mean it has current, as in
amps. The electric field so generated by the wires induces a single which is picked up by
a VOM. Such induced voltages produce amps in the Nano range. Stray voltage is not induced
voltage and is another and dangerous manner. Any electrical device in or near the water
can/will induce meaningless voltage. If you ground such water with a grounding probe such
induced voltage disappears. There is not one shred of evidence that such voltage does any
harm to fish what so ever, which long ago I also believed. The only fish that are effected
by stray voltage, not induced are sharks or fish that make electricity through their
muscles , such as electric catfish.. So, at one time, I believed the same as you. Do a
search on me here and you will see :-) I still wonder though if such induced voltage does
have an effect on fish.

"A ground fault interupter is what I have been recommending in nearly all of my
posts about this issue, including the first one I posted regarding this issue.
If YOU had been paying attention to my posts a little more carefully, you would
have noted that."

LOL see me arguing that. I read your posts.You are again starting an argument based on
nothing I have said. See mine, I also always advise the use of a GFCI and GP. The issue of
this is not GFIC or a GP but voltage measure and what they mean.


"have posted a
couple of articles about it right here in this newsgroup"

Lets see them. If they are the ones I have posted here and on many forums then you need
to go back and read them. As they clearly explain it, to include test result and readings
of such voltage all done by some one who know what they are talking about, EE's...And that
is really not you or I

"Do you want to shut the **** up and stop trolling me, or what? "


Shut the **** up, such childish language........ trolling ? I like trolling you to shut
you the **** up and stop misleading people here on your line of BS and constant arguing
with people and looooong ass threads of arguing. If you were correct I would not be
correcting you. I think you are not what you claim to be and are just a snot- noised kid
that thinks he know it all, just ask me I'm Geeroge.

Boomer

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Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up