Ich - the aftermath and big clean up

[Gill Passman]

Hi All,
This isn't a cry for help although anybody's comments are welcome as ever
:-) I'm posting this more so that people can be prepared for what might
happen after a very heavy treatment cycle in their community tank....

Ich is now gone so I've started the big clean up. First step was to test the
water and got a 0.1 reading on nitrites - I've not had any reading on
nitrites since the tank was eventually cycled around October last year. The
pH was slightly up at between 7.5 and 8 which suprised me considering the
salt. I did a 30% change last night and reduced the temp by 1 degree - I'm
doing this gradually - it was really high because of the Ich.

This morning I noticed that I have lost a Guppy :-( - hand on heart I can't
be certain that he was there before the water change - the plants were in a
terrible state and a mangled mess in the middle of the tank (salt levels
probably - some thrived and others didn't). Certainly, I believe it was the
nitrite level that finished him off. Have not found him inspite of stripping
down the tank today so I guess he either became "lunch" or "was abducted by
aliens". (BTW we even cleaned down the filter)

One of the major problems here as I see it, is that I have what I would term
"a well stocked tank" which has been a fine balance of water changes and
heavy planting. When I used the second Ich treatment I could not do the
water changes. The previous Ich treatment of salt killed off the plants and
the decaying plant matter raised the nitrites. So then I have a situation
where I cannot change the water because of the chemical treatment of Ich and
cannot do anything about the plants, apart from the bare minimum in case I
cause more stress to the fish in the tank.

I estimate I am 50% down on the plants. I took them all out today for a
major cleanup and also to attempt to find my "late" guppy - no sign of him.

Haven't done a water change tonight as I figure the trauma of the plant
decimation was enough for the fish....but I did check the ammonia (0) and
nitrites (barely readable so less than 0.1).

Water change and shopping trip for more plants scheduled for the morning....

Gill

[Ionizer]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
> This isn't a cry for help although anybody's comments are welcome as
> ever
> :-) I'm posting this more so that people can be prepared for what
> might
> happen after a very heavy treatment cycle in their community tank....
>
> Ich is now gone so I've started the big clean up. First step was to
> test the
> water and got a 0.1 reading on nitrites - I've not had any reading on
> nitrites since the tank was eventually cycled around October last
> year. The
> pH was slightly up at between 7.5 and 8 which suprised me considering
> the
> salt. I did a 30% change last night and reduced the temp by 1 degree -
> I'm
> doing this gradually - it was really high because of the Ich.
>
> This morning I noticed that I have lost a Guppy :-( - hand on heart I
> can't
> be certain that he was there before the water change - the plants were
> in a
> terrible state and a mangled mess in the middle of the tank (salt
> levels
> probably - some thrived and others didn't). Certainly, I believe it
> was the
> nitrite level that finished him off. Have not found him inspite of
> stripping
> down the tank today so I guess he either became "lunch" or "was
> abducted by
> aliens". (BTW we even cleaned down the filter)
>
> One of the major problems here as I see it, is that I have what I
> would term
> "a well stocked tank" which has been a fine balance of water changes
> and
> heavy planting. When I used the second Ich treatment I could not do
> the
> water changes. The previous Ich treatment of salt killed off the
> plants and
> the decaying plant matter raised the nitrites. So then I have a
> situation
> where I cannot change the water because of the chemical treatment of
> Ich and
> cannot do anything about the plants, apart from the bare minimum in
> case I
> cause more stress to the fish in the tank.
>
> I estimate I am 50% down on the plants. I took them all out today for
> a
> major cleanup and also to attempt to find my "late" guppy - no sign of
> him.
>
> Haven't done a water change tonight as I figure the trauma of the
> plant
> decimation was enough for the fish....but I did check the ammonia (0)
> and
> nitrites (barely readable so less than 0.1).
>
> Water change and shopping trip for more plants scheduled for the
> morning....

It sounds to me like both of us are at about the same beginner-level of
fishkeeping. With that in mind, what your post reinforces for me is
that salt is potentially very dangerous to fish and plants when added to
freshwater aquariums. Using hindsight, what I suppose you might have
preferred to have done is remove all the plants from your tank prior to
adding all the salt. Would you tend to use lower quantities of salt in
the future as a result of this experience? I found the information at
this site to be quite cautionary regarding salt in freshwater aquariums:
http://www.algone.com/salt_in_fresh.htm

Regarding plants, it says: "The lethal point for plants is reached at
about 1000 mg/l of salt. One teaspoon of salt equals approx. 5500 mg. "

Regarding the use of salt to reduce the effects of nitrite poisoning on
fish: "one teaspoon of salt would be sufficient to provide this effect
for a 300 Gallon tank."

This site recommends similarly minimal amounts of salt to treat/prevent
nitrite poisoning:
http://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/1998/spring/nitrate.shtml

While neither of these two sources are specifically discussing ich,
which is what you were dealing with, they are consistent in recommending
very minimal quantities of salt.

I feel your pain- I have been feeling quite stressed about the ongoing
condition of our fish since setting up our new tank(s) very recently,
and have been genuinely saddened by each of the few fish losses we have
encountered. Because I'm apparently in charge of the task of
maintaining our little slice of Marineland, I always feel responsible.

Regards,
Ian.
(Now Playing: It All Depends On You - Frank Sinatra)

[John Thomas]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All,
> This isn't a cry for help although anybody's comments are welcome as ever
> :-) I'm posting this more so that people can be prepared for what might
> happen after a very heavy treatment cycle in their community tank....
>

I'm sorry to hear things didn't go better for your tank's occupants.

I did as much last month- Salt and 86F 7 days, down to 72 and no salt in
7 days.

Here's my Recap:
Day Minus One:
Noticed Flashing Behavior in New Cory, Old Cory, Old Neon Tetras. No
spots. Read up as much as I could on the subject via google groups,
NetMax, The Krib, and Skeptical...

Day Zero:
- Moved Out Plants to Balcony Bucket
- Relocated AppleSnail and other Inverts to QTank.
- Removed 90% of Water & Vac'd Gravel
- Removed Filters in Aquaclear & Penguin HOB's
- Put biowheel in ziplock bag, vegetable crisper drawer.
- Added 12" bubble wand
- Added 1 tbsp of Morton's Iodized Salt per 5 gallons.
- Refilled tank to 50%.
- Cranked heat. Took a day to come to a simmer.

Days One-Six:
- Fed everyone frozen brine shrimp in the morning, flakes for lunch, and
a Hikari Algae Tablet for bedtime.
- Lowered water by 50% while gravel vacc'ing.
- Added Salt to bring back to original concentration. (I knew all those
dilution problems I used to do in my head in the lab would come in handy
some day)
- Put water back to mark I made on tank
- Enjoyed loud as hell waterfalls from filtration units

Days Seven-Fourteen:
- Put water back up to normal
- Exchanged 50% of water while gravel vacc'ing & lowered temp by 2F, daily

Day Fifteen:
- Re-installed Nitrogen consortia back in tank.
- All other filtration media was either new or Microwaved before
re-assembly.
- Discontinued Brine Shrimp Feedings.
- Put plants back after a permanganate dip
(uh huhhuhh, oxidants are cool)
- Put inverts back

Day Twenty-Two:
- Tank routine has gone back to normal:
M-F: daily algae and flakes
S: frozen brine shrimp and veggie treats for the vermin
N: A day of fasting, with a gravel vac 50% water change. (Tap water is
soft here, just use AquaSafe for the Arsenate and OrganoChlorides.)

- Survivors are all happy and include:
Five Marbled Hatchets
Five Harlequin Raspboras
Six Cardinal Tetras
One Neon Tetra (Good Riddance, the other ones were sickly from day one)
Five Corydas
Three Otoclinus affinus

- Death kindly visited:
One Corydas (day two)
Three Neon Tetras (day two-five)
Untold throngs of cilliates, planaria, and mollusca. (Any day is a good day)

- Other notes:
Tank was once filled with dozens of Ampularidae (Pond Snails)
The heat and Salt Treatments wiped out the fine fellows. They were
literally crawling out of the water to avoid it. Plenty of dead floaters
first couple of days. Nice side benefit.

Didn't test for nitrates. Never have tested for any Nitrogenous
compounds, either. (Used to be environmental microbiologist in former
life. I can tell by taste.)

I got impatient and put the new Corydas in without watching them for
long enough before putting them in the community tank. Apparently, two
weeks wasn't enough, and I'd just been lucky before. Oddly enough, none
of the long term residents of the QTank have ever shown any symptoms. I
never did actually see white spots. Normal QTank scum dwellers include a
few ten cent feeder fish (guppies, white clouds, zebras), and three otos
and khuli loaches. I thought the latter were supposed to be fragile and
would have gone to the big net in the sky in an instant if something
wicked this way came.

What killed the fish in days two through five? Protists? Salt? Temp? The
Axis of Evil? Who knows?

Corydas, AppleSnail, and Raspboras love playing in the bubbles. Stupid
tetras were petrified by it at first, but they've come to accept it as
non-threatening. If I had to redo my tank again, I'd get no Neons and
more Hatchets and Raspboras. The Otos have gone back to being invisible
since their cover was introduced.

I'm surprised it was so easy to buy a big bag of strong oxidants at a
pond supply store. Apparently the nutjobs of the world haven't latched
onto some kinds of explosives yet. (uh huhhuhh, Hyrdrazine is cool)

Thanks to the folks who share their enjoyment of the hobby here, its
really helped me be a better steward for my little "fish for brains" pets.

[Gill Passman]

"Ionizer" > wrote in message
...
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > Hi All,
> > This isn't a cry for help although anybody's comments are welcome as
> > ever
> > :-) I'm posting this more so that people can be prepared for what
> > might
> > happen after a very heavy treatment cycle in their community tank....
> >
> > Ich is now gone so I've started the big clean up. First step was to
> > test the
> > water and got a 0.1 reading on nitrites - I've not had any reading on
> > nitrites since the tank was eventually cycled around October last
> > year. The
> > pH was slightly up at between 7.5 and 8 which suprised me considering
> > the
> > salt. I did a 30% change last night and reduced the temp by 1 degree -
> > I'm
> > doing this gradually - it was really high because of the Ich.
> >
> > This morning I noticed that I have lost a Guppy :-( - hand on heart I
> > can't
> > be certain that he was there before the water change - the plants were
> > in a
> > terrible state and a mangled mess in the middle of the tank (salt
> > levels
> > probably - some thrived and others didn't). Certainly, I believe it
> > was the
> > nitrite level that finished him off. Have not found him inspite of
> > stripping
> > down the tank today so I guess he either became "lunch" or "was
> > abducted by
> > aliens". (BTW we even cleaned down the filter)
> >
> > One of the major problems here as I see it, is that I have what I
> > would term
> > "a well stocked tank" which has been a fine balance of water changes
> > and
> > heavy planting. When I used the second Ich treatment I could not do
> > the
> > water changes. The previous Ich treatment of salt killed off the
> > plants and
> > the decaying plant matter raised the nitrites. So then I have a
> > situation
> > where I cannot change the water because of the chemical treatment of
> > Ich and
> > cannot do anything about the plants, apart from the bare minimum in
> > case I
> > cause more stress to the fish in the tank.
> >
> > I estimate I am 50% down on the plants. I took them all out today for
> > a
> > major cleanup and also to attempt to find my "late" guppy - no sign of
> > him.
> >
> > Haven't done a water change tonight as I figure the trauma of the
> > plant
> > decimation was enough for the fish....but I did check the ammonia (0)
> > and
> > nitrites (barely readable so less than 0.1).
> >
> > Water change and shopping trip for more plants scheduled for the
> > morning....
>
> It sounds to me like both of us are at about the same beginner-level of
> fishkeeping. With that in mind, what your post reinforces for me is
> that salt is potentially very dangerous to fish and plants when added to
> freshwater aquariums. Using hindsight, what I suppose you might have
> preferred to have done is remove all the plants from your tank prior to
> adding all the salt. Would you tend to use lower quantities of salt in
> the future as a result of this experience? I found the information at
> this site to be quite cautionary regarding salt in freshwater aquariums:
> http://www.algone.com/salt_in_fresh.htm
>
> Regarding plants, it says: "The lethal point for plants is reached at
> about 1000 mg/l of salt. One teaspoon of salt equals approx. 5500 mg. "
>
> Regarding the use of salt to reduce the effects of nitrite poisoning on
> fish: "one teaspoon of salt would be sufficient to provide this effect
> for a 300 Gallon tank."
>
> This site recommends similarly minimal amounts of salt to treat/prevent
> nitrite poisoning:
> http://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/1998/spring/nitrate.shtml
>
> While neither of these two sources are specifically discussing ich,
> which is what you were dealing with, they are consistent in recommending
> very minimal quantities of salt.
>
> I feel your pain- I have been feeling quite stressed about the ongoing
> condition of our fish since setting up our new tank(s) very recently,
> and have been genuinely saddened by each of the few fish losses we have
> encountered. Because I'm apparently in charge of the task of
> maintaining our little slice of Marineland, I always feel responsible.
>
> Regards,
> Ian.
> (Now Playing: It All Depends On You - Frank Sinatra)
>
>
Now playing "The only way is up" - Yazz and the plastic population

[Iain Miller]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
> This isn't a cry for help although anybody's comments are welcome as ever
> :-) I'm posting this more so that people can be prepared for what might
> happen after a very heavy treatment cycle in their community tank....
>

<Big Snip>

Ahhhg (!) Forget the salt, raising temps etc etc....

Go and get yourself some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Safe for everything
(except crustaceans I think). Never fails, treat on days 1,2,3 & 6 if I
remember correctly. Use only a 3/4 dose if you have loaches.

Ich is the easiest thing to cure & there is no need to lose any fish to it -
IF you get the right meds.

That said Ich is pretty much always present in the tank - the fact that it
flares up on the fish is usually a sign that something else is not quite
right & that the fish are a bit stressed - so see if you can figure out what
the problem is & cure it.

I.

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
<snip>

Hi Gill,

just a comment about the decimated plants - if they were growing well before
the "issue" then I wouldn't necessarily be going out to buy lots more to
replace what's been destroyed.

I went through a decimation a while ago and thought the same thing - I'll
just go and buy some more.

If you can stand the look of the tank as it is now I'd stay with that -
above anything else this is an opportunity to aquascape properly now.

The plants will grow back bushier and more prolific than ever before,
believe me and you could be doing as I do every fortnight now - end up
giving more back to the LFS than you bought off them in the first place ;)

I now can say I have too many plants from refilling after a cull and it
looks messy all the time. I don't want to even begin to think of
photographing it for inclusion in an aquascaping competition atm, not that I
would any way because my plants are for the fish first.

Trust me, your plants will come back better than they've ever been, so there
is no need to buy any more just now.;)

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Gill Passman]

"John Thomas" > wrote in message
...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > This isn't a cry for help although anybody's comments are welcome as
ever
> > :-) I'm posting this more so that people can be prepared for what might
> > happen after a very heavy treatment cycle in their community tank....
> >
>
> I'm sorry to hear things didn't go better for your tank's occupants.
>
> I did as much last month- Salt and 86F 7 days, down to 72 and no salt in
> 7 days.
>
> Here's my Recap:
> Day Minus One:
> Noticed Flashing Behavior in New Cory, Old Cory, Old Neon Tetras. No
> spots. Read up as much as I could on the subject via google groups,
> NetMax, The Krib, and Skeptical...
>
> Day Zero:
> - Moved Out Plants to Balcony Bucket
> - Relocated AppleSnail and other Inverts to QTank.
> - Removed 90% of Water & Vac'd Gravel
> - Removed Filters in Aquaclear & Penguin HOB's
> - Put biowheel in ziplock bag, vegetable crisper drawer.
> - Added 12" bubble wand
> - Added 1 tbsp of Morton's Iodized Salt per 5 gallons.
> - Refilled tank to 50%.
> - Cranked heat. Took a day to come to a simmer.
>
> Days One-Six:
> - Fed everyone frozen brine shrimp in the morning, flakes for lunch, and
> a Hikari Algae Tablet for bedtime.
> - Lowered water by 50% while gravel vacc'ing.
> - Added Salt to bring back to original concentration. (I knew all those
> dilution problems I used to do in my head in the lab would come in handy
> some day)
> - Put water back to mark I made on tank
> - Enjoyed loud as hell waterfalls from filtration units
>
> Days Seven-Fourteen:
> - Put water back up to normal
> - Exchanged 50% of water while gravel vacc'ing & lowered temp by 2F, daily
>
> Day Fifteen:
> - Re-installed Nitrogen consortia back in tank.
> - All other filtration media was either new or Microwaved before
> re-assembly.
> - Discontinued Brine Shrimp Feedings.
> - Put plants back after a permanganate dip
> (uh huhhuhh, oxidants are cool)
> - Put inverts back
>
> Day Twenty-Two:
> - Tank routine has gone back to normal:
> M-F: daily algae and flakes
> S: frozen brine shrimp and veggie treats for the vermin
> N: A day of fasting, with a gravel vac 50% water change. (Tap water is
> soft here, just use AquaSafe for the Arsenate and OrganoChlorides.)
>
> - Survivors are all happy and include:
> Five Marbled Hatchets
> Five Harlequin Raspboras
> Six Cardinal Tetras
> One Neon Tetra (Good Riddance, the other ones were sickly from day one)
> Five Corydas
> Three Otoclinus affinus
>
> - Death kindly visited:
> One Corydas (day two)
> Three Neon Tetras (day two-five)
> Untold throngs of cilliates, planaria, and mollusca. (Any day is a good
day)
>
> - Other notes:
> Tank was once filled with dozens of Ampularidae (Pond Snails)
> The heat and Salt Treatments wiped out the fine fellows. They were
> literally crawling out of the water to avoid it. Plenty of dead floaters
> first couple of days. Nice side benefit.
>
> Didn't test for nitrates. Never have tested for any Nitrogenous
> compounds, either. (Used to be environmental microbiologist in former
> life. I can tell by taste.)
>
> I got impatient and put the new Corydas in without watching them for
> long enough before putting them in the community tank. Apparently, two
> weeks wasn't enough, and I'd just been lucky before. Oddly enough, none
> of the long term residents of the QTank have ever shown any symptoms. I
> never did actually see white spots. Normal QTank scum dwellers include a
> few ten cent feeder fish (guppies, white clouds, zebras), and three otos
> and khuli loaches. I thought the latter were supposed to be fragile and
> would have gone to the big net in the sky in an instant if something
> wicked this way came.
>
> What killed the fish in days two through five? Protists? Salt? Temp? The
> Axis of Evil? Who knows?
>
> Corydas, AppleSnail, and Raspboras love playing in the bubbles. Stupid
> tetras were petrified by it at first, but they've come to accept it as
> non-threatening. If I had to redo my tank again, I'd get no Neons and
> more Hatchets and Raspboras. The Otos have gone back to being invisible
> since their cover was introduced.
>
> I'm surprised it was so easy to buy a big bag of strong oxidants at a
> pond supply store. Apparently the nutjobs of the world haven't latched
> onto some kinds of explosives yet. (uh huhhuhh, Hyrdrazine is cool)
>
> Thanks to the folks who share their enjoyment of the hobby here, its
> really helped me be a better steward for my little "fish for brains" pets.

Thanks for sharing your experience. My losses were:-

1 Neon Tetra
1 Fantail Guppy
2 Platys plus one Platy fry
Half of my plants

None of the above appeared to have been affected by the Ich....in fact the
Guppy was a few days after the tank was clear (think it was the raise in
nitrites from the dead plant matter). I think it was the salt that did in
the Neon. The Platys I've no idea.....

All in all it took 4 weeks to clear the Ich. I just had 4 Clown Loaches
affected. I tried 3 different treatments, Interpet Anti White Spot Plus,
Salt and Protozin. The salt cured two of them and the mix of salt and
Protozin the other two.

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
u...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > Hi All,
> <snip>
>
> Hi Gill,
>
> just a comment about the decimated plants - if they were growing well
before
> the "issue" then I wouldn't necessarily be going out to buy lots more to
> replace what's been destroyed.
>
> I went through a decimation a while ago and thought the same thing - I'll
> just go and buy some more.
>
> If you can stand the look of the tank as it is now I'd stay with that -
> above anything else this is an opportunity to aquascape properly now.
>
> The plants will grow back bushier and more prolific than ever before,
> believe me and you could be doing as I do every fortnight now - end up
> giving more back to the LFS than you bought off them in the first place ;)
>
> I now can say I have too many plants from refilling after a cull and it
> looks messy all the time. I don't want to even begin to think of
> photographing it for inclusion in an aquascaping competition atm, not that
I
> would any way because my plants are for the fish first.
>
> Trust me, your plants will come back better than they've ever been, so
there
> is no need to buy any more just now.;)
>
> Regards,
>
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
Hi Oz,

Thanks for that. The surviving plants were all broad leafed so I just bought
two Hygrophila - which actually split down into four plants when I put them
in the gravel.

Maybe that is were I have been going wrong before - I've just been planting
too many - the usual state is a tangled mass in the middle. I'll give it a
few weeks and see how they grow.

The tank looks pretty empty at the moment but there are still hiding
places.....

Thanks
Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Iain Miller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > Hi All,
> > This isn't a cry for help although anybody's comments are welcome as
ever
> > :-) I'm posting this more so that people can be prepared for what might
> > happen after a very heavy treatment cycle in their community tank....
> >
>
> <Big Snip>
>
> Ahhhg (!) Forget the salt, raising temps etc etc....
>
> Go and get yourself some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Safe for everything
> (except crustaceans I think). Never fails, treat on days 1,2,3 & 6 if I
> remember correctly. Use only a 3/4 dose if you have loaches.
>
> Ich is the easiest thing to cure & there is no need to lose any fish to
it -
> IF you get the right meds.
>
> That said Ich is pretty much always present in the tank - the fact that it
> flares up on the fish is usually a sign that something else is not quite
> right & that the fish are a bit stressed - so see if you can figure out
what
> the problem is & cure it.
>
> I.
>
>
>
>
Hi Iain,

I only had 4 Clown Loaches infested with another two fine along with
everyone else in the tank (as far as Ich was concerned). I don't believe
that the ich killed off the 4 fish I lost (2 of them (platys) were a
territoral war with a dominant male, the neon I think was the salt and
probably a water quality issue killed off the Guppy (the amount of dead
plant debris raised my nitrites slightly - back to zero now though)

In this instance it didn't respond to my usual meds (Interpet Anti White
Spot Plus) - moved onto the salt and fixed one of them. Then got some
Protozin and fixed another two. Then just left well alone with the residue
of the Protozin and the salt and fixed the fourth. Hence it took almost 4
weeks to clear the tank, including the wait with the carbon in the filter to
get rid of the first batch of meds.

Before this experience I thought Ich was easy to cure - I'd only had one
instance and a dose of the Interpet stuff with a follow up as per the
instructions along with high temps fixed it almost in hours. This time it
was different......

The attack was definitely stress related coupled with me having added
infected water from a LFS about a week before (never again)

Gill

[Iain Miller]

>
> Hi Iain,
>
> I only had 4 Clown Loaches infested with another two fine along with
> everyone else in the tank (as far as Ich was concerned). I don't believe
> that the ich killed off the 4 fish I lost (2 of them (platys) were a
> territoral war with a dominant male, the neon I think was the salt and
> probably a water quality issue killed off the Guppy (the amount of dead
> plant debris raised my nitrites slightly - back to zero now though)

Salt (in sufficient qantities) will stress your fish, your plants and
therefore your whole tank - all leading to further susceptibility to Ich.
High temperatures don't do your plants much good and the higher they go the
less oxygen the water can hold - stressing your fish again if you have a
reasonably heavily populated tank.

All the high temps do is to speed up the Ich lifecycle a bit anyway.

> In this instance it didn't respond to my usual meds (Interpet Anti White
> Spot Plus) - moved onto the salt and fixed one of them. Then got some
> Protozin and fixed another two. Then just left well alone with the residue
> of the Protozin and the salt and fixed the fourth. Hence it took almost 4
> weeks to clear the tank, including the wait with the carbon in the filter
> to
> get rid of the first batch of meds.

I've tried others but nothing ever works as well as Protazin. Dump it in as
soon as you see the first signs of ich & you will be rid of it in under a
week and before it has a chance to take hold and really stress the fish out.
Stressed fish get weak & die real quick as you have discovered!

> Before this experience I thought Ich was easy to cure - I'd only had one
> instance and a dose of the Interpet stuff with a follow up as per the
> instructions along with high temps fixed it almost in hours. This time it
> was different......

It is easy to cure if you catch it early enough & with the right stuff. Keep
it simple, no salt, don't mess with the temps and just use the Protazin,

> The attack was definitely stress related coupled with me having added
> infected water from a LFS about a week before (never again)

That won't have helped!

I.

[Ozdude]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Hi Oz,

Hi!
>
> Thanks for that. The surviving plants were all broad leafed so I just
> bought
> two Hygrophila - which actually split down into four plants when I put
> them
> in the gravel.
>
> Maybe that is were I have been going wrong before - I've just been
> planting
> too many - the usual state is a tangled mass in the middle. I'll give it a
> few weeks and see how they grow.
>
> The tank looks pretty empty at the moment but there are still hiding
> places.....

I've just done the 6 monthly "super-cull" in my tank. I have Blue Stricta,
Hygrophilia polysperma, Twisted Val., Asian Ambula, Wisteria and Cardamine
and I kid you not, I chopped them all down to 1/3 of their size last week -
already they are grown back for the most part and I can see it'll be 3
months at this rate before I do it again. They get bushy and lush like
terrestrial plants.

The tank looks decimated from it's grown state when I do it and there is so
much light it is almost too much for my eyes. I leave low bushy stuff for
hiding/playing/sex etc., but what grows back is lush, easier to control and
very surprising.

I have had 3 big "cull" events over the life of this tank so far and two of
them were from disease in the form of diatom/algae and parasites/snails
eggs. This is the first time I've deliberately had to cut it all back.

I came at it from a terrestrial gardening point of view: there are some
plants in my garden which enjoy being cut back really hard (Australian
Natives mainly), but to do it they have to be growing in good conditions in
the first place - well I just consider that my aquarium plants will quite
happily grow 2.5cm in a good week and seem to be pearling more often than
not, so I am assuming they are growing at full pelt.

So last time I had to cull from problems I cut them back really hard with
the view that if they didn't grow back I could go out and buy more/different
ones. Well, I never got the opportunity to do that. Before I knew it I had
this lush bright green jungle in the tank.

So I say what I say from the view that if the biotope for growing plants is
optimal, then don't worry about a hard cull too much. If your having trouble
growing stuff then perhaps consider restocking from fresh stock.

Great to hear your problems are abating too. Now you can get on with
enjoying the tank(s) again ;)
Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

[Elaine T]

Iain Miller wrote:
>>Hi Iain,
>>
>>I only had 4 Clown Loaches infested with another two fine along with
>>everyone else in the tank (as far as Ich was concerned). I don't believe
>>that the ich killed off the 4 fish I lost (2 of them (platys) were a
>>territoral war with a dominant male, the neon I think was the salt and
>>probably a water quality issue killed off the Guppy (the amount of dead
>>plant debris raised my nitrites slightly - back to zero now though)
>
>
> Salt (in sufficient qantities) will stress your fish, your plants and
> therefore your whole tank - all leading to further susceptibility to Ich.
> High temperatures don't do your plants much good and the higher they go the
> less oxygen the water can hold - stressing your fish again if you have a
> reasonably heavily populated tank.
>
> All the high temps do is to speed up the Ich lifecycle a bit anyway.
>
Actually, salt stresses ich more than it does most fish. That's why
people use it. As for high temps, temps at or above 85F outright kill
most strains of the parasite.

Protozin and other ich meds are somewhat toxic, so treating ich with
high temps in particular is a good way to avoid dumping chemicals in the
tank.

As for plants, IME high temps are harder on them than a bit of salt.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Iain Miller]

>>
>> All the high temps do is to speed up the Ich lifecycle a bit anyway.
>>
> Actually, salt stresses ich more than it does most fish. That's why
> people use it.

Its all relative to the amount you use... too much salt will kill the ich
quicker but then again it will also stress the fish

>As for high temps, temps at or above 85F outright kill most strains of the
>parasite.

.....and significantly deplete the tank of oxygen thus stressing the fish -
especially if its a well stocked tank.

> Protozin and other ich meds are somewhat toxic, so treating ich with high
> temps in particular is a good way to avoid dumping chemicals in the tank.

Granted, but it carries its own risks

> As for plants, IME high temps are harder on them than a bit of salt.

True, depending on the quantities, but again, upsetting the plants is also
upsetting the eco-balance in the tank. Suddenly things like Nitrates can
start to get out of control because the plants are no longer absorbing them.

On balance I'd still prefer the Protazin route.

I.

[Gill Passman]

"Ozdude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > Hi Oz,
>
> Hi!
> >
> > Thanks for that. The surviving plants were all broad leafed so I just
> > bought
> > two Hygrophila - which actually split down into four plants when I put
> > them
> > in the gravel.
> >
> > Maybe that is were I have been going wrong before - I've just been
> > planting
> > too many - the usual state is a tangled mass in the middle. I'll give it
a
> > few weeks and see how they grow.
> >
> > The tank looks pretty empty at the moment but there are still hiding
> > places.....
>
> I've just done the 6 monthly "super-cull" in my tank. I have Blue Stricta,
> Hygrophilia polysperma, Twisted Val., Asian Ambula, Wisteria and Cardamine
> and I kid you not, I chopped them all down to 1/3 of their size last
week -
> already they are grown back for the most part and I can see it'll be 3
> months at this rate before I do it again. They get bushy and lush like
> terrestrial plants.
>
> The tank looks decimated from it's grown state when I do it and there is
so
> much light it is almost too much for my eyes. I leave low bushy stuff for
> hiding/playing/sex etc., but what grows back is lush, easier to control
and
> very surprising.
>
> I have had 3 big "cull" events over the life of this tank so far and two
of
> them were from disease in the form of diatom/algae and parasites/snails
> eggs. This is the first time I've deliberately had to cut it all back.
>
> I came at it from a terrestrial gardening point of view: there are some
> plants in my garden which enjoy being cut back really hard (Australian
> Natives mainly), but to do it they have to be growing in good conditions
in
> the first place - well I just consider that my aquarium plants will quite
> happily grow 2.5cm in a good week and seem to be pearling more often than
> not, so I am assuming they are growing at full pelt.
>
> So last time I had to cull from problems I cut them back really hard with
> the view that if they didn't grow back I could go out and buy
more/different
> ones. Well, I never got the opportunity to do that. Before I knew it I had
> this lush bright green jungle in the tank.
>
> So I say what I say from the view that if the biotope for growing plants
is
> optimal, then don't worry about a hard cull too much. If your having
trouble
> growing stuff then perhaps consider restocking from fresh stock.
>
> Great to hear your problems are abating too. Now you can get on with
> enjoying the tank(s) again ;)
> Oz
>
> --
> My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith
>
>
I must admit the tank looks very bare....not sure I'll have my normal platy
fry survival rate until it all grows back. But one plus is that I can now
see the fish.

Don't think I'm through the woods on the problems though - see post "The
case of the disappearing Guppies". The Malawi tank is suffering from an
extreme algae problem through me losing the ball for a few days dealing with
the other tank....the new tank is doing well but the fish aren't feeding yet
(Peacock Gobys) but I understand they are quite hard to feed.....positive
note is that the Betta is doing well in his little Kitchen Tank even though
he is starting to bully the platy juvs in there....

Think I need a couple of weeks off work to sort these guys - I wish....