How do I have a brightly-lit tank without algae?

[Alan Silver]

Hello,

I have a 220 litre (24" cube) Malawi cichlid tank (see
http://fish.alansilver.co.uk/Mark3/Gallery/0402FirstFish/Default.asp?img=
tank_040217_01.jpg for an out-of-date picture) that is suffering from a
green algae problem.

I'm fairly certain that the problem is caused by the amount and/or type
of lights. The tank has two 24" fluorescent lights, one white and one
blue, plus three 40 watt halogen spotlights. This is all because the
tank is in a corner away from any natural light and we want to be able
to see the fish!!

Anyway, the tank is fairly covered in very short hairy green algae. I
have to clean the glass at least once a week, or it gets too mucky to
see inside. The background is quite covered in algae as well. This isn't
too terrible as it looks more natural, but it does make the tank dark.

So, any suggestions? I know I could cut down on the amount of light, but
I want to keep it bright. Would different types of lights help? If so,
what?

I have an Ancistrus bristlenose catfish in there and it is pretty busy,
but it doesn't seem to be able to keep up with the algae growth. I
wondered about adding another, or even a Plec, but I don't know if that
would be the answer.

Any suggestions greatly welcome. TIA.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Amateur Cichlids]

"Alan Silver" > wrote in message
...
<snip> that is suffering from a
> green algae problem.
<snip>
> Any suggestions greatly welcome. TIA.
>

First thing to do is cut down on the amount of time the light is on. Have
the lights turn on later in the day, and off earlier. More frequent water
changes will reduce the amount of nitrates in the tank which will help with
algae growth. Being that's it's a Mbuna tank, (which is too small IMO, but I
covered that a few months ago) adding fish or shrimp that eat hair algae
probably isn't an option. Plus, adding more to the tank can add to the
problem with a higher bio-load.
Test the phosphate levels in the tank. You can buy filter material that
removes phosphates if you have phosphates in the tank. Phosphates are a big
contributor to hair algae. Hair algae is difficult to get rid of and off
requires removing it by hand. Don't wipe it down and let it float off into
the tank, else it will eventuall reattach or send off pieces to grow
elsewhere. It needs to be removed. ;-)
Not real enlightening, but it's all I've got.
Tim
www.fishaholics.org

[Alan Silver]

Tim,

Thanks for the reply. I have already cut down the lighting hours, so
that's not really an option. I do pretty regular water changes too and
the water quality is good. I haven't tested for phosphates though, so
that could be an option.

I don't know if this is hair algae as it's very short. I thought hair
algae tended to be longer, like hair (!!).

Would the type of lighting be a factor? I am thinking of changing the
halogen lights for fluorescents anyway as the halogens produce too much
heat. Would this help the algae problem?

Thanks again.

alan

>First thing to do is cut down on the amount of time the light is on. Have
>the lights turn on later in the day, and off earlier. More frequent water
>changes will reduce the amount of nitrates in the tank which will help with
>algae growth. Being that's it's a Mbuna tank, (which is too small IMO, but I
>covered that a few months ago) adding fish or shrimp that eat hair algae
>probably isn't an option. Plus, adding more to the tank can add to the
>problem with a higher bio-load.
>Test the phosphate levels in the tank. You can buy filter material that
>removes phosphates if you have phosphates in the tank. Phosphates are a big
>contributor to hair algae. Hair algae is difficult to get rid of and off
>requires removing it by hand. Don't wipe it down and let it float off into
>the tank, else it will eventuall reattach or send off pieces to grow
>elsewhere. It needs to be removed. ;-)
>Not real enlightening, but it's all I've got.
>Tim
>www.fishaholics.org
>
>

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 5 May 2005 14:42:29 +0100, Alan Silver
> wrote:

>Would the type of lighting be a factor? I am thinking of changing the
>halogen lights for fluorescents anyway as the halogens produce too much
>heat. Would this help the algae problem?

My halogen spots don't cause a problem. They are on for about 16 hours
a day. I don't use fluorescent lights. Maybe they are your problem.

Steve

[Alan Silver]

>>Would the type of lighting be a factor? I am thinking of changing the
>>halogen lights for fluorescents anyway as the halogens produce too much
>>heat. Would this help the algae problem?
>
>My halogen spots don't cause a problem. They are on for about 16 hours
>a day. I don't use fluorescent lights. Maybe they are your problem.

Dunno, fluorescents are the standard for fish tanks, they aren't
generally known for causing algae problems.

Maybe I'll have to add a Plec and see if that helps. They are supposed
to be good algae eaters.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 5 May 2005 16:41:23 +0100, Alan Silver
> wrote:

>>>Would the type of lighting be a factor? I am thinking of changing the
>>>halogen lights for fluorescents anyway as the halogens produce too much
>>>heat. Would this help the algae problem?
>>
>>My halogen spots don't cause a problem. They are on for about 16 hours
>>a day. I don't use fluorescent lights. Maybe they are your problem.
>
>Dunno, fluorescents are the standard for fish tanks, they aren't
>generally known for causing algae problems.
>

"Standard" or not, try using just the halogens for a while. If the
algae starts to fade away don't forget that dead algae can also be a
problem so keep it cleared out.

>Maybe I'll have to add a Plec and see if that helps. They are supposed
>to be good algae eaters.

Plecs are not as good at algae clearing as bristlenose and you already
have one of them. Get another one. If you get a pair they will breed.
OTOH Plecs will never breed in a tank.

BTW what sort of Malawi cichlids are they? Most of the common Mbuna
eat algae, especially if no easier food is supplied. If they have
other food they won't eat the algae - why scrape rocks when flakes are
around. Mbuna fed on algae turn on their best colours.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Gill Passman]

"Alan Silver" > wrote in message
...
> >>Would the type of lighting be a factor? I am thinking of changing the
> >>halogen lights for fluorescents anyway as the halogens produce too much
> >>heat. Would this help the algae problem?
> >
> >My halogen spots don't cause a problem. They are on for about 16 hours
> >a day. I don't use fluorescent lights. Maybe they are your problem.
>
> Dunno, fluorescents are the standard for fish tanks, they aren't
> generally known for causing algae problems.
>
> Maybe I'll have to add a Plec and see if that helps. They are supposed
> to be good algae eaters.
>
> --
> Alan Silver
> (anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

I've got the same problem as you in my Malawi tank...it's a bit like a green
carpet on the rocks and substrate. It's not slimy or anything so does seem a
little bit like hair algae - it's a very bright green. The front of the tank
needs doing a couple of times a week. Ammonia is 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate
around 10. Of course there are only a couple of plants. Do a 10-20% water
change each week.

I've got a Pl*co but although he is working on the back of the tank the job
seems to be beyond him.....

I'm wondering if it is Phosphate level after reading Tim's posting (thanks
Tim)

I'll continue following this thread. Please let me know how you get on

Gill

[Alan Silver]

>I've got the same problem as you in my Malawi tank...it's a bit like a green
>carpet on the rocks and substrate. It's not slimy or anything so does seem a
>little bit like hair algae - it's a very bright green.

Mine's quite a dark green, but like your's it's furry, not slimy. Mine's
more in patches than a carpet.

I actually don't mind it too much, it's just that it makes the tank look
too dark.

>I've got a Pl*co but although he is working on the back of the tank the job
>seems to be beyond him.....

Sounds like my bristlenose!!

>I'm wondering if it is Phosphate level after reading Tim's posting (thanks
>Tim)

Me too, I might see how much the filters are.

>I'll continue following this thread. Please let me know how you get on

You too ;-)

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Alan Silver]

>>>>Would the type of lighting be a factor? I am thinking of changing the
>>>>halogen lights for fluorescents anyway as the halogens produce too much
>>>>heat. Would this help the algae problem?
>>>
>>>My halogen spots don't cause a problem. They are on for about 16 hours
>>>a day. I don't use fluorescent lights. Maybe they are your problem.
>>
>>Dunno, fluorescents are the standard for fish tanks, they aren't
>>generally known for causing algae problems.
>
>"Standard" or not, try using just the halogens for a while. If the
>algae starts to fade away don't forget that dead algae can also be a
>problem so keep it cleared out.

Can't harm to try I suppose. I don't know how long it would take before
I would expect to see a difference though. I know algae grows pretty
quickly, how quickly is it likely to fade away if the fluoros are the
problem?

>>Maybe I'll have to add a Plec and see if that helps. They are supposed
>>to be good algae eaters.
>
>Plecs are not as good at algae clearing as bristlenose and you already
>have one of them. Get another one. If you get a pair they will breed.
>OTOH Plecs will never breed in a tank.

Baby bristlenoses? That sounds like fun!! Trouble is, I have no idea
whether mine is a boy or girl, and catching him wouldn't be easy. Still,
I might do some research and see if I can find out how to tell the
difference.

>BTW what sort of Malawi cichlids are they? Most of the common Mbuna
>eat algae, especially if no easier food is supplied. If they have
>other food they won't eat the algae - why scrape rocks when flakes are
>around. Mbuna fed on algae turn on their best colours.

Mine do scrape at the algae a bit, but not a huge amount. Maybe if it
were longer they might, but as I said, it's very short.

Thanks for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 5 May 2005 19:48:29 +0100, Alan Silver
> wrote:

>
>Baby bristlenoses? That sounds like fun!! Trouble is, I have no idea
>whether mine is a boy or girl, and catching him wouldn't be easy. Still,
>I might do some research and see if I can find out how to tell the
>difference.

Mature males (4" +) have long bristles. Females just stubs.

>
>>BTW what sort of Malawi cichlids are they? Most of the common Mbuna
>>eat algae, especially if no easier food is supplied. If they have
>>other food they won't eat the algae - why scrape rocks when flakes are
>>around. Mbuna fed on algae turn on their best colours.
>
>Mine do scrape at the algae a bit, but not a huge amount. Maybe if it
>were longer they might, but as I said, it's very short.

It's the short algae they like. Leave them without food for a few days
and see what happens. 90% of Mbuna are algae eaters.


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Jim Anderson]

In article >,
says...

> 90% of Mbuna are algae eaters.

Actually the Mbunas are after the crustaceans in the algae, like shrimp
salad. So their diet consists of mainly algae. (so I've read)

I have a treo of Electric Yellow (Labidochromis caeruleus) in my 38 usg
tank that love the bush algae and chase away the Florida flag fish I
bought to take care of it.

--
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 05 May 2005 23:41:59 GMT, Jim Anderson
> wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>
>> 90% of Mbuna are algae eaters.
>
>Actually the Mbunas are after the crustaceans in the algae, like shrimp
>salad. So their diet consists of mainly algae. (so I've read)
>

They vary from those that just eat the algae to those that eat the
creatures in the algae and the algae itself. Then just a few Mbuna
don't eat algae at all.

>I have a treo of Electric Yellow (Labidochromis caeruleus) in my 38 usg
>tank that love the bush algae and chase away the Florida flag fish I
>bought to take care of it.

That particular Labidochromis is a micropredator. They are searching
the algae for tasties!


--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

[Happy'Cam'per]

"Alan Silver" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>

Hi Allan

First off, I think that is ALOT of light for that tank. If you must keep all
that light then shorten the photo period (only put the lights on at night
while you are home, no need for them to be on all day long. Try to angle the
lights so they are shining toward the back of the tank and not onto the
front glass. Really no need for all that light on a Malawi setup, unless
you're growing marijuana at the base of the tank :) HTH
--
Kind Regards
Cameron

[Alan Silver]

>>Baby bristlenoses? That sounds like fun!! Trouble is, I have no idea
>>whether mine is a boy or girl, and catching him wouldn't be easy. Still,
>>I might do some research and see if I can find out how to tell the
>>difference.
>
>Mature males (4" +) have long bristles. Females just stubs.

Thanks, I found this on a web page shortly after posting. Mine is a boy,
so I guess if I can buy a girl, I could have wedding bells!!

I'm not sure if mine is fully mature yet though as he's only about 3"
long. Still, a friend won't do any harm, even if they are too young to
get married yet ;-)

>>>BTW what sort of Malawi cichlids are they? Most of the common Mbuna
>>>eat algae, especially if no easier food is supplied. If they have
>>>other food they won't eat the algae - why scrape rocks when flakes are
>>>around. Mbuna fed on algae turn on their best colours.
>>
>>Mine do scrape at the algae a bit, but not a huge amount. Maybe if it
>>were longer they might, but as I said, it's very short.
>
>It's the short algae they like. Leave them without food for a few days
>and see what happens. 90% of Mbuna are algae eaters.

Well, my local cichlid expert reckons that I wasn't feeding them enough,
so I just increased the amount of food!! I do see them having a go at
the algae, but I don't know how much difference they make to it.

Having said that, when we had our tropical tank, I once had a problem
where the filter on the cichlid tank failed. I dropped a Fluval 2 from
the tropical tank into the cichlid tank to keep it going until the
following day when I went out and bought a new filter. The tropical tank
had a real algae problem at that time (caused by a lack of attention
from me) and the Fluval had long (about 2"-3") hair algae on it. Within
an hour in the cichlid tank it looked like new!! So they do eat algae!!

Anyway, I took out the halogen lights yesterday and replaced them with
some energy saving bulbs (which are effectively small fluorescent tubes
curled up), so I will see how that affects matters. I intend on leaving
it a week and seeing what the glass looks like.

Thanks for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Alan Silver]

>First off, I think that is ALOT of light for that tank.

I know, but the whole point of the tank is for it to be seen, and with
less light, it just doesn't show up. With the higher light, it looks
stunning.

Anyway, I would have thought this was fairly low compared with the
African sunshine, no? I don't know how that rates in wattage, but I can
look directly at the lights above my tank, I can't do that to the sun
here in England, so the African sun would be way brighter.

> If you must keep all
>that light then shorten the photo period (only put the lights on at night
>while you are home, no need for them to be on all day long.

Problem there is that the tank is in a room that is occupied most of the
day. Ideally we would like the lights on all day long as the room is
used from about 7:30am pretty much non-stop until about 11pm. We have
compromised and cut the photo period back to about 2pm to 10pm.

> Try to angle the
>lights so they are shining toward the back of the tank and not onto the
>front glass.

Already done that. The halogens were pointed more at the middle and back
of the tank. I just changes them for some less directional lights, but
they are still over the middle of the tank.

> Really no need for all that light on a Malawi setup, unless
>you're growing marijuana at the base of the tank :) HTH

I didn't know it grew under water!! Not that I want doped fish... unless
it might calm them down a bit!! I could do with getting Biffer to mellow
out a bit, he's always chasing the other fish around. Beautiful fish,
but a bully.

Thanks for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[Gill Passman]

"Alan Silver" > wrote in message
...
> >I've got the same problem as you in my Malawi tank...it's a bit like a
green
> >carpet on the rocks and substrate. It's not slimy or anything so does
seem a
> >little bit like hair algae - it's a very bright green.
>
> Mine's quite a dark green, but like your's it's furry, not slimy. Mine's
> more in patches than a carpet.
>
> I actually don't mind it too much, it's just that it makes the tank look
> too dark.
>
> >I've got a Pl*co but although he is working on the back of the tank the
job
> >seems to be beyond him.....
>
> Sounds like my bristlenose!!
>
> >I'm wondering if it is Phosphate level after reading Tim's posting
(thanks
> >Tim)
>
> Me too, I might see how much the filters are.
>
> >I'll continue following this thread. Please let me know how you get on
>
> You too ;-)
>
> --
> Alan Silver
> (anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

I actually left the tank alone this weekend (apart from the usual water
change and scrape) as there are a couple of fry in there and I didn't want
to upset them. However, I have made another observation since then, which as
you are in England as well, depending on the area might be relevant.

I have set up two tanks in the last few months - one is the Malawi tank and
the other is a small 7.5gall species tank. Both I filled with tap water -
the Malawi tank is not planted but the 7.5gall is heavily planted. Both
tanks have this bright green algae stuff....the 7.5gall doesn't have the
carpet yet.

I'm wondering if there has been something added to the water
recently....where are you based? I'm in Reading....

Gill

[Alan Silver]

<snip>
>I'm wondering if there has been something added to the water
>recently....where are you based? I'm in Reading....

I'm in Manchester, so we're on different water supplies. I don't think
our water has changed, I've had problems with this sort of algae ever
since I started keeping fish. I think my problem is a lot of light and
nothing to use it up. I don't have any plants in there as the Malawis
would probably look on them as salad, so the algae has free run on any
nutrients.

Thanks for the reply

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[[email protected]]

The planted tank is using some the nitrates/phosphates present in your
tank-water. I wouldn't read too much into that. Try testing your tap-water
for nitrates and phosphates, if it is clear, the problem is possibly due to
over feeding and possibly over-lighting. If either are present, you may have
to consider using RO/DI water and 'artificially' rebuilding it like some of
us need to. It's a pain. I apologize if I've missed some of the early posts
but how old are your tanks?

Mark

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[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
...
> The planted tank is using some the nitrates/phosphates present in your
> tank-water. I wouldn't read too much into that. Try testing your tap-water
> for nitrates and phosphates, if it is clear, the problem is possibly due
to
> over feeding and possibly over-lighting. If either are present, you may
have
> to consider using RO/DI water and 'artificially' rebuilding it like some
of
> us need to. It's a pain. I apologize if I've missed some of the early
posts
> but how old are your tanks?
>
> Mark
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
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Mine is 3-4 months...haven't tested for phosphates yet but nitrates are 10.
Had no problem with this until the last 2-3 weeks but have noticed the same
problem in a tank I set up 3 weeks ago that is heavily planted.....looking
for test kits for phosphate over the weekend....

Gill

[[email protected]]

Gill

It doesn't sound like Nitrates are the problem. At 3 to 4 months old (which
is still relatively young) I wouldn't worry TOO much, it may be a passing
fad. But do check the phosphates and also keep the feeding to a minimum. In
a crisis period like this, I reduce the feeding to every other day, or twice
a week (I know the fish are begging for the food but you have to remember
that relative starvation is normal in the wild!) - keep the feeding small
and only use quality feeds that are nitrate and phosphate free..

Again, I'm sorry if I missed the earlier posts, but with a heavily planted
tank, you can probably get away with 9 or 10 hours of lighting but in
theory, the higher plants should out compete the algae if they are able to.
If you have CO2 and feed with a nitrate/phosphate free feed, this shouldn't
be a problem.

I hope it helps

Mark

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[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
...
> Gill
>
> It doesn't sound like Nitrates are the problem. At 3 to 4 months old
(which
> is still relatively young) I wouldn't worry TOO much, it may be a passing
> fad. But do check the phosphates and also keep the feeding to a minimum.
In
> a crisis period like this, I reduce the feeding to every other day, or
twice
> a week (I know the fish are begging for the food but you have to remember
> that relative starvation is normal in the wild!) - keep the feeding small
> and only use quality feeds that are nitrate and phosphate free..
>
> Again, I'm sorry if I missed the earlier posts, but with a heavily planted
> tank, you can probably get away with 9 or 10 hours of lighting but in
> theory, the higher plants should out compete the algae if they are able
to.
> If you have CO2 and feed with a nitrate/phosphate free feed, this
shouldn't
> be a problem.
>
> I hope it helps
>
> Mark
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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Hi Mark,
Thanks for your post....nitrites and ammonia are 0, I'm not too much worried
about the nitrates as this is not a planted tank....and they are still
relatively low. No CO2 unit.

The food that I use as their staple does contain Phosphates so I think
trying to find a phosphate test or remover is a good idea.

One thing I did see today when I did my bi-weekly algae fight is that if I
loosen the algae enough the Mbunas will eat it. So I'm thinking doing this
and then skipping a feed and letting nature take it's course.

Gill

[[email protected]]

Sounds like a good plan!

Mark

[Gill Passman]

> wrote in message
...
> Sounds like a good plan!
>
> Mark

Phosphates are 0.1 so nothing to write home about. So I think it's manual
clean up time and let the Mbunas do the rest

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Alan Silver" > wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> >I'm wondering if there has been something added to the water
> >recently....where are you based? I'm in Reading....
>
> I'm in Manchester, so we're on different water supplies. I don't think
> our water has changed, I've had problems with this sort of algae ever
> since I started keeping fish. I think my problem is a lot of light and
> nothing to use it up. I don't have any plants in there as the Malawis
> would probably look on them as salad, so the algae has free run on any
> nutrients.
>
> Thanks for the reply
>
> --
> Alan Silver
> (anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

Hi Alan,
How's the algae fight going? I checked for phosphates today which came out
at 0.25 so not much to go on there.

I noticed if I loosen the algae myself the fish will then eat
it....obviously too lazy to scrape at it themselves but appreciative if I do
all the hard work.

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > Sounds like a good plan!
> >
> > Mark
>
> Phosphates are 0.1 so nothing to write home about. So I think it's manual
> clean up time and let the Mbunas do the rest
>
> Gill
>
>
Woops - meant 0.25

[Alan Silver]

>Hi Alan,
>How's the algae fight going? I checked for phosphates today which came out
>at 0.25 so not much to go on there.

I guess I should point out that I'm not really fighting algae, I just
had a greenish tinge to my tank. I've fought algae before and it's
awful. This is nothing like that.

Anyway, I tried swapping the halogen lights for energy saving bulbs,
which are basically little fluorescent tubes, but it didn't make any
difference. The slight green fur on the glass came back just as fast as
with the halogens.

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)