Setting up a new planted tank...

[Phil Williamson]

Hi all,

I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant it.
I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and then an
inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a hagen
CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if needed),
adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10 watt
all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood with
the same light setup if I need it.

Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?

Phil..

[Elaine T]

Phil Williamson wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant it.
> I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and then an
> inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a hagen
> CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if needed),
> adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10 watt
> all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood with
> the same light setup if I need it.
>
> Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
>
> Phil..
>
>
Sure does to me. I usually do 2" of substrate on small tanks too. I
just did a 15 tall setup and I'm running an Aquaclear 20. Sand over
Flourite is good, as is the CO2.

For lighting, are you talking about the All Glass screw-in fluorescent
bulbs? Those are decent. I think you'll find that you need at least 3
and maybe all four of those bulbs to light the bottom of the well. I've
got a 15 high (the really tall Oceanic one) with 36W of PC lighting and
I'm already wishing for more at the bottom. The lowest plants in the
tank are crypts, though, so I think they'll do OK.

So, yes, as long as you've got fluorescent lighting, you're definately
headed in the right direction.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[lgb]

In article >, eetmail-
says...
> For lighting, are you talking about the All Glass screw-in fluorescent
> bulbs? Those are decent. I think you'll find that you need at least 3
> and maybe all four of those bulbs to light the bottom of the well.
>
If you're talking about the flourescents that screw in to an
incandescent socket, Walmart has the 6500K ones at just over half of the
All Glass ones, even discounted.

My plants seem to love them. Yhey're flourishing even without CO2
added.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Dick]

On Wed, 11 May 2005 13:57:53 -0400, "Phil Williamson"
> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant it.
>I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and then an
>inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a hagen
>CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if needed),
>adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10 watt
>all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood with
>the same light setup if I need it.
>
>Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
>
>Phil..
>

Hi Phil,

Your tank to light ratio is 20 watts/15 gallons or 1.3 watts/gallon (I
hope my math is close). This is a "low light" ratio. Plants require
different light levels and those needing a higher ratio, say 2 or more
will not do well in your tank. That still leaves a fair number to
choose from. You can do a Google "aquarium plants "low light"" and
get a number of responses. Here is one site that explains "low light"
and provides some choices:

http://www.aquariumgarden.com/info.php?doc_base=info/faq/lights.php

One problem I have run into with one of my 10 gallon tanks, is growth.
The plants started small, but have grown to where they fill the tank.
I had to cut an Anubia in half, and the bottom half is again over half
way to the top. And I don't even use CO2! Funny, I had a hard time
getting this same tank to grow anything for the first year, now it has
become very fertile!

My point is, plants do not remain what you plant, they multiply and
grow. You may be tempted to fill your 15 gallon tank and a year from
now needing to "weed" it. Different tanks may have different results.
I have another 10 gallon tank with an Anubia that has added leaves,
but has barely grown upward. I have Crypts in both a 75 gallon and a
29 gallon tank. The Crypts in the 29 gallon are over a foot high
whereas those in the 75 are under 6 inches tall. Both have spread
horizontally.

I find aquarium plants almost as much fun as the fish and the fish do
enjoy the plants.

dick

[Uncle Davey]

U¿ytkownik "Phil Williamson" > napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant it.
> I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and then
an
> inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a hagen
> CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if needed),
> adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10
watt
> all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood with
> the same light setup if I need it.
>
> Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
>
> Phil..
>
>

How deep is your tank, how deep is your tank?
You really need to know.

You call it a "high tank" - the higher it is the more likely your lighting
may not get to the bottom.

If that is the case you can get around it by raising the ground level in the
are for planting more light requiring plants, and put the anubias and
cryptocorynes further down.

Uncle Davey

[lgb]

In article >,
says...
>
> One problem I have run into with one of my 10 gallon tanks, is growth.
> The plants started small, but have grown to where they fill the tank.
> I had to cut an Anubia in half, and the bottom half is again over half
> way to the top. And I don't even use CO2!
>
I planted 10 pygmy chain sword plants in a 10 gallon. Last month I
pulled out a big double handfull. I should have believed the statement
that they put out "2 new runners a week." But they do make a nice lawn
:-).


> I find aquarium plants almost as much fun as the fish and the fish do
> enjoy the plants.
>
Watch it! Before long you'll start describing yourself as an aquatic
gardener and rating fish by whether or not they're beneficial to your
plants :-).

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Phil Williamson]

Yep.. I'm talking about the spiral screw in floruos, they are really bright
although I find the color is a little yellowish. Do you think I'll need
more than 2 of these to light the tank?

Phil..

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
...
> Phil Williamson wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant
it.
> > I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and
then an
> > inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a
hagen
> > CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if
needed),
> > adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10
watt
> > all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood
with
> > the same light setup if I need it.
> >
> > Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
> >
> > Phil..
> >
> >
> Sure does to me. I usually do 2" of substrate on small tanks too. I
> just did a 15 tall setup and I'm running an Aquaclear 20. Sand over
> Flourite is good, as is the CO2.
>
> For lighting, are you talking about the All Glass screw-in fluorescent
> bulbs? Those are decent. I think you'll find that you need at least 3
> and maybe all four of those bulbs to light the bottom of the well. I've
> got a 15 high (the really tall Oceanic one) with 36W of PC lighting and
> I'm already wishing for more at the bottom. The lowest plants in the
> tank are crypts, though, so I think they'll do OK.
>
> So, yes, as long as you've got fluorescent lighting, you're definately
> headed in the right direction.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Phil Williamson]

Those are the ones, I got mine at petsmart some time ago. It's nice because
you don't have to get a new hood to put them in. Mine just fit into the old
incandescent hood that came with a kit.

"lgb" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, eetmail-
> says...
> > For lighting, are you talking about the All Glass screw-in fluorescent
> > bulbs? Those are decent. I think you'll find that you need at least 3
> > and maybe all four of those bulbs to light the bottom of the well.
> >
> If you're talking about the flourescents that screw in to an
> incandescent socket, Walmart has the 6500K ones at just over half of the
> All Glass ones, even discounted.
>
> My plants seem to love them. Yhey're flourishing even without CO2
> added.
>
> --
> BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

[Phil Williamson]

I had a similar experience with my last planted tank about a year ago, the
thing was growing like crazy. Since then, I haven't had much luck with
planted tanks at all (even using the same tank + equipment!). I was at the
point with my planted tank that as long as the plants were doing fine, the
fish were a bonus really.

I have a 2nd hood that I can use to beef up the watt/gal, I believe that
gives me 2.7 watts/gal. I didn't think I'd have to use it since the tank
glows with just 2 bulbs over it!

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 13:57:53 -0400, "Phil Williamson"
> > wrote:
>
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant it.
> >I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and then
an
> >inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a
hagen
> >CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if
needed),
> >adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10
watt
> >all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood
with
> >the same light setup if I need it.
> >
> >Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
> >
> >Phil..
> >
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> Your tank to light ratio is 20 watts/15 gallons or 1.3 watts/gallon (I
> hope my math is close). This is a "low light" ratio. Plants require
> different light levels and those needing a higher ratio, say 2 or more
> will not do well in your tank. That still leaves a fair number to
> choose from. You can do a Google "aquarium plants "low light"" and
> get a number of responses. Here is one site that explains "low light"
> and provides some choices:
>
> http://www.aquariumgarden.com/info.php?doc_base=info/faq/lights.php
>
> One problem I have run into with one of my 10 gallon tanks, is growth.
> The plants started small, but have grown to where they fill the tank.
> I had to cut an Anubia in half, and the bottom half is again over half
> way to the top. And I don't even use CO2! Funny, I had a hard time
> getting this same tank to grow anything for the first year, now it has
> become very fertile!
>
> My point is, plants do not remain what you plant, they multiply and
> grow. You may be tempted to fill your 15 gallon tank and a year from
> now needing to "weed" it. Different tanks may have different results.
> I have another 10 gallon tank with an Anubia that has added leaves,
> but has barely grown upward. I have Crypts in both a 75 gallon and a
> 29 gallon tank. The Crypts in the 29 gallon are over a foot high
> whereas those in the 75 are under 6 inches tall. Both have spread
> horizontally.
>
> I find aquarium plants almost as much fun as the fish and the fish do
> enjoy the plants.
>
> dick

[Phil Williamson]

The tank dimensions are as follows in inches:

18 - High
10 - Deep
20 - Wide

I hadn't even thought of putting plants on different layers, very
interesting solution by the way!

"Uncle Davey" > wrote in message
...
>
> U¿ytkownik "Phil Williamson" > napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
> ...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant
it.
> > I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and
then
> an
> > inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a
hagen
> > CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if
needed),
> > adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10
> watt
> > all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood
with
> > the same light setup if I need it.
> >
> > Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
> >
> > Phil..
> >
> >
>
> How deep is your tank, how deep is your tank?
> You really need to know.
>
> You call it a "high tank" - the higher it is the more likely your lighting
> may not get to the bottom.
>
> If that is the case you can get around it by raising the ground level in
the
> are for planting more light requiring plants, and put the anubias and
> cryptocorynes further down.
>
> Uncle Davey
>
>
>

[Uncle Davey]

U¿ytkownik "Phil Williamson" > napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
> The tank dimensions are as follows in inches:
>
> 18 - High
> 10 - Deep
> 20 - Wide
>

At eighteen inches you could do with hiking the levels a bit for the more
light requiring kinds, but you'll be fine for Crypts, Anubias and numerous
others at 18 inches.

Once you start going any deeper than that, you have to think about halogens.

> I hadn't even thought of putting plants on different layers, very
> interesting solution by the way!

It can be good as it also adds visual depth to the tank. You can make the
construction from slates and silicon sealant, and make "pockets" at
different heights that will ensure that the roots of some plants are
protected against invasion from some of the more aggressive plants, and you
still have variety in a year or two's time, not just Vallisneria everywhere,
for example.

Be aware of the lifecycles of your neon tubes, by the way, and don't wait
for your plants to tell you to change them. Also, remember not to put
delicate plants into new water, that hasn't been properly dechlorinated yet
or brought up to temperature.

Adding a mirror at the back adds depth and gets you more mileage from your
lights.

Another thing - aquatic plants grow best in the presence of fish - I was
told that in a talk at a fish club talk by the person who was in charge of
the aquatic plants section of the Royal Botanical Gardens at Kew, which you
may know if you've evr been to London and seen it, has a fine collection of
fish with it - but be careful what you keep, as some fish will eat most
plants. Don't get Distichodus whatever you do!

A little article by me on Distichodus is here, by the way:
http://www.usenetposts.com/art6.htm

A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care of
any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are given
lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.

Another point - an automatic timer is a good investment if you are taking
plants seriously - the tropical cycle is 12 hours day, 12 hours night.

Best,

Davey




>
> "Uncle Davey" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > U¿ytkownik "Phil Williamson" > napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci
> > ...
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm planning on setting up a 15 gal high tank and would like to plant
> it.
> > > I'm planning on lining the bottom with an inch or so of flourite and
> then
> > an
> > > inch of black sand that I have left over from other tanks. I have a
> hagen
> > > CO2 canister system that uses yeast, aquaclear 150 (and a mini if
> needed),
> > > adequate heating. For lighting I have an incandecent hood with 2 x 10
> > watt
> > > all-glass aquarium lightblubs rated at 6,500K, I also have a 2nd hood
> with
> > > the same light setup if I need it.
> > >
> > > Does this sound like I'm heading in the right direction?
> > >
> > > Phil..
> > >
> > >
> >
> > How deep is your tank, how deep is your tank?
> > You really need to know.
> >
> > You call it a "high tank" - the higher it is the more likely your
lighting
> > may not get to the bottom.
> >
> > If that is the case you can get around it by raising the ground level in
> the
> > are for planting more light requiring plants, and put the anubias and
> > cryptocorynes further down.
> >
> > Uncle Davey
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Elaine T]

Phil Williamson wrote:
> Yep.. I'm talking about the spiral screw in floruos, they are really bright
> although I find the color is a little yellowish. Do you think I'll need
> more than 2 of these to light the tank?
>
> Phil..
>
I'd use all four myself if temps don't get too high. I had two 5500K
14W spiral screw-ins over the 5 gal on my web page (link below) and no
problems with nuisance algae whatsoever. The only algae eaters in the
tank were Amano shrimp and one tiny C. siamensis. You've got a larger
and much deeper tank so two 10W bulbs just aren't going to work very
well. As I said, I'm already considering adding another 15W strip to
the 36W of PC I already have over my own 15 gal tall tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Uncle Davey wrote:

<snip>
> A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care of
> any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
> adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are given
> lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
>
Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
appropriate size for 15 gallons.

I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.

I also keep an SAE (C. siamensis) in the tank because I get brush algae.
When he grows too large and needs more swimming room than 15 gallons,
I have a friend who will take him.

> Another point - an automatic timer is a good investment if you are taking
> plants seriously - the tropical cycle is 12 hours day, 12 hours night.
>
> Best,
>
> Davey
>
>
--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dick]

On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:39:30 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Uncle Davey wrote:
>
><snip>
>> A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care of
>> any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
>> adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are given
>> lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
>>
>Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
>chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
>kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
>appropriate size for 15 gallons.
>
>I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
>of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
>I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
>large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
>Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
>
>I also keep an SAE (C. siamensis) in the tank because I get brush algae.
> When he grows too large and needs more swimming room than 15 gallons,
>I have a friend who will take him.
>
>> Another point - an automatic timer is a good investment if you are taking
>> plants seriously - the tropical cycle is 12 hours day, 12 hours night.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Davey
>>
>>
Hi Elaine,

I have 13 Clown Loaches; 6 in a 75 gal, 5 in a 29 gal and 2 in a 10
gallon tank. I see no difference in their general behavior. None of
them are much into swimming long distances. The 10 has one SAE and it
seems content as the other 14 in the other 2 tanks. The SAEs and
Clowns do schoal in the 75 once in awhile and usually all together
with other species. It is a sight to behold, but is less frequent as
time goes on.

The SAEs have out grown the Clowns, some are "pan" size (about 6
inches), those Clowns in the 10 gal are smaller than the largest in
the other 2 tanks, but they seem quite healthy and content. I enjoy
them more as they are not just a bunch of fish, instead I see two
individuals. One is more shy. They live in a mill house ceramic
ornament. The larger of the two is always the first to come out when
it is feeding time. The shy one will dash to the mill house if I move
too quickly.

I early on worried about making a bad decision when I learned the
fears of Clowns outgrowing their tank. That was 2 years ago and I am
daily delighted to report all fears do not happen. By the way the 2
largest Clowns are not in the 75 gal tank, but in the 29 gallon.

dick

[Gill Passman]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:39:30 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
> >Uncle Davey wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >> A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
of
> >> any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
> >> adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are
given
> >> lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
> >>
> >Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
> >chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
> >kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
> >appropriate size for 15 gallons.
> >
> >I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
> >of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
> >I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
> >large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
> >Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
> >
> >I also keep an SAE (C. siamensis) in the tank because I get brush algae.
> > When he grows too large and needs more swimming room than 15 gallons,
> >I have a friend who will take him.
> >
> >> Another point - an automatic timer is a good investment if you are
taking
> >> plants seriously - the tropical cycle is 12 hours day, 12 hours night.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Davey
> >>
> >>
> Hi Elaine,
>
> I have 13 Clown Loaches; 6 in a 75 gal, 5 in a 29 gal and 2 in a 10
> gallon tank. I see no difference in their general behavior. None of
> them are much into swimming long distances. The 10 has one SAE and it
> seems content as the other 14 in the other 2 tanks. The SAEs and
> Clowns do schoal in the 75 once in awhile and usually all together
> with other species. It is a sight to behold, but is less frequent as
> time goes on.
>
> The SAEs have out grown the Clowns, some are "pan" size (about 6
> inches), those Clowns in the 10 gal are smaller than the largest in
> the other 2 tanks, but they seem quite healthy and content. I enjoy
> them more as they are not just a bunch of fish, instead I see two
> individuals. One is more shy. They live in a mill house ceramic
> ornament. The larger of the two is always the first to come out when
> it is feeding time. The shy one will dash to the mill house if I move
> too quickly.
>
> I early on worried about making a bad decision when I learned the
> fears of Clowns outgrowing their tank. That was 2 years ago and I am
> daily delighted to report all fears do not happen. By the way the 2
> largest Clowns are not in the 75 gal tank, but in the 29 gallon.
>
> dick
>
How large are your largest Clowns?

Gill

[Uncle Davey]

Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
...
> Uncle Davey wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
of
> > any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
> > adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are given
> > lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
> >
> Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
> chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
> kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
> appropriate size for 15 gallons.

Clowns don't grow that much in smaller tanks, as they are quite pheromone
sensitive. Gyrinocheilus is less likely to dwarf.

>
> I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
> of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
> I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
> large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
> Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.


One advantage Ancistrus has even in smaller conditions is that is is an
atmospheric air breather when necessary. In a heavily planted small tank, as
you know the plants only engage in photosynthesis by day, but they respire
oxygen all the time, and at night a heavily planted tank at higher summer
temperatures can become depleted of oxygen. Ancistrus has no great problem
with this. At the same time the nitrates it produces are dealt with in a
heavily planted tank.

It doesn't need a big space for its territory - one male of mine with about
50 gallons available clings to the inside of a coconut. Quite a few hundred
young he has issued from that coconut in his time, with a little help from
his females, of course ;-)

Uncle Davey

[Phil Williamson]

I couldn't find any clown loaches where I'm from but I did manage to get my
hands on a yoyo loach. I love the coloring on the fish and quickly became
my favorite fish in the tank. This thing was a real snail buster and I was
very happy with it until it suddenly died after having it for over a year.

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:39:30 GMT, Elaine T >
> wrote:
>
> >Uncle Davey wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >> A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
of
> >> any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
> >> adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are
given
> >> lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
> >>
> >Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
> >chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
> >kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
> >appropriate size for 15 gallons.
> >
> >I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
> >of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
> >I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
> >large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
> >Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
> >
> >I also keep an SAE (C. siamensis) in the tank because I get brush algae.
> > When he grows too large and needs more swimming room than 15 gallons,
> >I have a friend who will take him.
> >
> >> Another point - an automatic timer is a good investment if you are
taking
> >> plants seriously - the tropical cycle is 12 hours day, 12 hours night.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Davey
> >>
> >>
> Hi Elaine,
>
> I have 13 Clown Loaches; 6 in a 75 gal, 5 in a 29 gal and 2 in a 10
> gallon tank. I see no difference in their general behavior. None of
> them are much into swimming long distances. The 10 has one SAE and it
> seems content as the other 14 in the other 2 tanks. The SAEs and
> Clowns do schoal in the 75 once in awhile and usually all together
> with other species. It is a sight to behold, but is less frequent as
> time goes on.
>
> The SAEs have out grown the Clowns, some are "pan" size (about 6
> inches), those Clowns in the 10 gal are smaller than the largest in
> the other 2 tanks, but they seem quite healthy and content. I enjoy
> them more as they are not just a bunch of fish, instead I see two
> individuals. One is more shy. They live in a mill house ceramic
> ornament. The larger of the two is always the first to come out when
> it is feeding time. The shy one will dash to the mill house if I move
> too quickly.
>
> I early on worried about making a bad decision when I learned the
> fears of Clowns outgrowing their tank. That was 2 years ago and I am
> daily delighted to report all fears do not happen. By the way the 2
> largest Clowns are not in the 75 gal tank, but in the 29 gallon.
>
> dick
>

[Elaine T]

Uncle Davey wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
> ...
>
>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
>
> of
>
>>>any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
>>>adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are given
>>>lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
>>>
>>
>>Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
>>chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
>>kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
>>appropriate size for 15 gallons.
>
>
> Clowns don't grow that much in smaller tanks, as they are quite pheromone
> sensitive. Gyrinocheilus is less likely to dwarf.

I didn't know clowns were that pheromone sensitive. I do a lot of water
changes and used to always run with Chemi-pure, so maybe that's why I
ended up with 3 4" clowns in a 29 gallon tank. They swam around a lot
at night, and tended to uproot the stem plants as they nosed around in
the gravel. Eventually, I moved them 55 gal. I can't IMAGINE those
characters in a 15 gal, thus my thinking that clowns would grow too large.

Gyrinocheilus (Chinese algae eater) is not a fish I recommend to anyone
- nor did you, I notice. They're downright mean when they get big. Did
you mean C. siamensis when you refered to dwarfing?

>>I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
>>of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
>>I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
>>large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
>>Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
>
>
>
> One advantage Ancistrus has even in smaller conditions is that is is an
> atmospheric air breather when necessary. In a heavily planted small tank, as
> you know the plants only engage in photosynthesis by day, but they respire
> oxygen all the time, and at night a heavily planted tank at higher summer
> temperatures can become depleted of oxygen. Ancistrus has no great problem
> with this. At the same time the nitrates it produces are dealt with in a
> heavily planted tank.
>
> It doesn't need a big space for its territory - one male of mine with about
> 50 gallons available clings to the inside of a coconut. Quite a few hundred
> young he has issued from that coconut in his time, with a little help from
> his females, of course ;-)
>
Neat. I've never kept a pair of Ancistrus before. I usually add a
small Farlowella spp. to larger planted tanks instead. I like how they
hang out nose-down in swords. Air breathing in small tanks is
definately a nice bonus. Otocinclus gulp air as well, as do most if not
all Loricariid catfish. Shrimp don't have that advantage, but they'll
climb up on plant leaves close to the surface.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Dick]

On Fri, 13 May 2005 12:18:55 +0100, "Gill Passman"
<gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Dick" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:39:30 GMT, Elaine T >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Uncle Davey wrote:
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >> A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
>of
>> >> any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
>> >> adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are
>given
>> >> lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
>> >>
>> >Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
>> >chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
>> >kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
>> >appropriate size for 15 gallons.
>> >
>> >I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
>> >of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
>> >I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
>> >large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
>> >Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
>> >
>> >I also keep an SAE (C. siamensis) in the tank because I get brush algae.
>> > When he grows too large and needs more swimming room than 15 gallons,
>> >I have a friend who will take him.
>> >
>> >> Another point - an automatic timer is a good investment if you are
>taking
>> >> plants seriously - the tropical cycle is 12 hours day, 12 hours night.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >>
>> >> Davey
>> >>
>> >>
>> Hi Elaine,
>>
>> I have 13 Clown Loaches; 6 in a 75 gal, 5 in a 29 gal and 2 in a 10
>> gallon tank. I see no difference in their general behavior. None of
>> them are much into swimming long distances. The 10 has one SAE and it
>> seems content as the other 14 in the other 2 tanks. The SAEs and
>> Clowns do schoal in the 75 once in awhile and usually all together
>> with other species. It is a sight to behold, but is less frequent as
>> time goes on.
>>
>> The SAEs have out grown the Clowns, some are "pan" size (about 6
>> inches), those Clowns in the 10 gal are smaller than the largest in
>> the other 2 tanks, but they seem quite healthy and content. I enjoy
>> them more as they are not just a bunch of fish, instead I see two
>> individuals. One is more shy. They live in a mill house ceramic
>> ornament. The larger of the two is always the first to come out when
>> it is feeding time. The shy one will dash to the mill house if I move
>> too quickly.
>>
>> I early on worried about making a bad decision when I learned the
>> fears of Clowns outgrowing their tank. That was 2 years ago and I am
>> daily delighted to report all fears do not happen. By the way the 2
>> largest Clowns are not in the 75 gal tank, but in the 29 gallon.
>>
>> dick
>>
>How large are your largest Clowns?
>
>Gill
>

Hi Gill,

The 2 largest are about 5 inches, none are less than 4 inches.
I have questionned this size question before. At that time I surveyed
a few online fish suppliers and only one indicated a 24 inch adult
size, the rest indicated 6 inches.

I am not questionning that there are 24 inch Clowns, but I now have
the opinion that those most avaialble are considerably smaller. My
experience favors the 6 inch maximum. Time will tell.

dick

[Dick]

On Fri, 13 May 2005 21:40:24 GMT, Elaine T >
wrote:

>Uncle Davey wrote:
>> Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
>> ...
>>
>>>Uncle Davey wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
>>
>> of
>>
>>>>any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
>>>>adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are given
>>>>lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
>>>chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
>>>kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
>>>appropriate size for 15 gallons.
>>
>>
>> Clowns don't grow that much in smaller tanks, as they are quite pheromone
>> sensitive. Gyrinocheilus is less likely to dwarf.
>
>I didn't know clowns were that pheromone sensitive. I do a lot of water
>changes and used to always run with Chemi-pure, so maybe that's why I
>ended up with 3 4" clowns in a 29 gallon tank. They swam around a lot
>at night, and tended to uproot the stem plants as they nosed around in
>the gravel. Eventually, I moved them 55 gal. I can't IMAGINE those
>characters in a 15 gal, thus my thinking that clowns would grow too large.
>
I dropped a few algae tabs near the filter intake. Many of my fish
went nuts searching here and there including the Clown Loaches. It
took the longest time for them to find the source of their searches.
It is like watching a cat and catnip.

I enjoy the 2 Clowns in the 10 gallon tank and see no problems with
their living there. They have been in the tank over a year. They are
good buds and get along fine with the Platties.

dick

>Gyrinocheilus (Chinese algae eater) is not a fish I recommend to anyone
>- nor did you, I notice. They're downright mean when they get big. Did
>you mean C. siamensis when you refered to dwarfing?
>
>>>I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
>>>of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
>>>I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
>>>large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
>>>Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
>>
>>
>>
>> One advantage Ancistrus has even in smaller conditions is that is is an
>> atmospheric air breather when necessary. In a heavily planted small tank, as
>> you know the plants only engage in photosynthesis by day, but they respire
>> oxygen all the time, and at night a heavily planted tank at higher summer
>> temperatures can become depleted of oxygen. Ancistrus has no great problem
>> with this. At the same time the nitrates it produces are dealt with in a
>> heavily planted tank.
>>
>> It doesn't need a big space for its territory - one male of mine with about
>> 50 gallons available clings to the inside of a coconut. Quite a few hundred
>> young he has issued from that coconut in his time, with a little help from
>> his females, of course ;-)
>>
>Neat. I've never kept a pair of Ancistrus before. I usually add a
>small Farlowella spp. to larger planted tanks instead. I like how they
>hang out nose-down in swords. Air breathing in small tanks is
>definately a nice bonus. Otocinclus gulp air as well, as do most if not
>all Loricariid catfish. Shrimp don't have that advantage, but they'll
>climb up on plant leaves close to the surface.

[Gill Passman]

"Dick" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 13 May 2005 12:18:55 +0100, "Gill Passman"
> <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:39:30 GMT, Elaine T >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Uncle Davey wrote:
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >> A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take
care
> >of
> >> >> any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is
an
> >> >> adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are
> >given
> >> >> lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
> >> >>
> >> >Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
> >> >chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
> >> >kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
> >> >appropriate size for 15 gallons.
> >> >
> >> >I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and
amount
> >> >of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
> >> >I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
> >> >large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
> >> >Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
> >> >
> >> >I also keep an SAE (C. siamensis) in the tank because I get brush
algae.
> >> > When he grows too large and needs more swimming room than 15
gallons,
> >> >I have a friend who will take him.
> >> >
> >> >> Another point - an automatic timer is a good investment if you are
> >taking
> >> >> plants seriously - the tropical cycle is 12 hours day, 12 hours
night.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best,
> >> >>
> >> >> Davey
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> Hi Elaine,
> >>
> >> I have 13 Clown Loaches; 6 in a 75 gal, 5 in a 29 gal and 2 in a 10
> >> gallon tank. I see no difference in their general behavior. None of
> >> them are much into swimming long distances. The 10 has one SAE and it
> >> seems content as the other 14 in the other 2 tanks. The SAEs and
> >> Clowns do schoal in the 75 once in awhile and usually all together
> >> with other species. It is a sight to behold, but is less frequent as
> >> time goes on.
> >>
> >> The SAEs have out grown the Clowns, some are "pan" size (about 6
> >> inches), those Clowns in the 10 gal are smaller than the largest in
> >> the other 2 tanks, but they seem quite healthy and content. I enjoy
> >> them more as they are not just a bunch of fish, instead I see two
> >> individuals. One is more shy. They live in a mill house ceramic
> >> ornament. The larger of the two is always the first to come out when
> >> it is feeding time. The shy one will dash to the mill house if I move
> >> too quickly.
> >>
> >> I early on worried about making a bad decision when I learned the
> >> fears of Clowns outgrowing their tank. That was 2 years ago and I am
> >> daily delighted to report all fears do not happen. By the way the 2
> >> largest Clowns are not in the 75 gal tank, but in the 29 gallon.
> >>
> >> dick
> >>
> >How large are your largest Clowns?
> >
> >Gill
> >
>
> Hi Gill,
>
> The 2 largest are about 5 inches, none are less than 4 inches.
> I have questionned this size question before. At that time I surveyed
> a few online fish suppliers and only one indicated a 24 inch adult
> size, the rest indicated 6 inches.
>
> I am not questionning that there are 24 inch Clowns, but I now have
> the opinion that those most avaialble are considerably smaller. My
> experience favors the 6 inch maximum. Time will tell.
>
> dick

Hi Dick,

Nice size Clowns :-) My two biggest must be around 4 1/2 inches now - the
other 4 go from 2-3 inches. They are all in the 50gall. Loaches Online seems
to indicate 12 inches as the maximum size but rarely in captivity:-

http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/botia_macracanthus.html

The largest one I ever saw was in one of my local shops and he was around 7
inches and very fat - resisted the temptation to purchase (not sure why).
Generally, the Clowns available around here are about 1 1/2 inches but IME
my smaller ones grew quite quickly.

I was curious as to the size of yours as I have only really ever considered
them for the 55 gall but my son's 30gall could really do with some type of
bottom feeders - and although he has a Pl*co he is not keen on any other
catfish. I had kind of ruled out the Clowns on the basis of tank size.

Gill

[NetMax]

"lgb" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>> One problem I have run into with one of my 10 gallon tanks, is growth.
>> The plants started small, but have grown to where they fill the tank.
>> I had to cut an Anubia in half, and the bottom half is again over half
>> way to the top. And I don't even use CO2!
>>
> I planted 10 pygmy chain sword plants in a 10 gallon. Last month I
> pulled out a big double handfull. I should have believed the statement
> that they put out "2 new runners a week." But they do make a nice lawn
> :-).
>
>
>> I find aquarium plants almost as much fun as the fish and the fish do
>> enjoy the plants.
>>
> Watch it! Before long you'll start describing yourself as an aquatic
> gardener and rating fish by whether or not they're beneficial to your
> plants :-).
>
> --
> BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

LOL, I had a customer who knew the name and date of introduction for
every plant in their tank. When I asked what kind of a fish they had, I
got a bit of a blank look while they mumbled... a couple of red ones and
a green one.... ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Uncle Davey]

Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
m...
> Uncle Davey wrote:
> > Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
> > ...
> >
> >>Uncle Davey wrote:
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
> >>>adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are
given
> >>>lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
> >>chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
> >>kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
> >>appropriate size for 15 gallons.
> >
> >
> > Clowns don't grow that much in smaller tanks, as they are quite
pheromone
> > sensitive. Gyrinocheilus is less likely to dwarf.
>
> I didn't know clowns were that pheromone sensitive. I do a lot of water
> changes and used to always run with Chemi-pure, so maybe that's why I
> ended up with 3 4" clowns in a 29 gallon tank. They swam around a lot
> at night, and tended to uproot the stem plants as they nosed around in
> the gravel. Eventually, I moved them 55 gal. I can't IMAGINE those
> characters in a 15 gal, thus my thinking that clowns would grow too large.

I never yet saw big clowns in a little tank unless someone was doing a jolly
good job with the water changes.

>
> Gyrinocheilus (Chinese algae eater) is not a fish I recommend to anyone
> - nor did you, I notice. They're downright mean when they get big. Did
> you mean C. siamensis when you refered to dwarfing?

I had G. aymonieri in mind, which is all that's in the trade where I am.

>
> >>I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
> >>of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
> >>I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
> >>large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
> >>Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
> >
> >
> >
> > One advantage Ancistrus has even in smaller conditions is that is is an
> > atmospheric air breather when necessary. In a heavily planted small
tank, as
> > you know the plants only engage in photosynthesis by day, but they
respire
> > oxygen all the time, and at night a heavily planted tank at higher
summer
> > temperatures can become depleted of oxygen. Ancistrus has no great
problem
> > with this. At the same time the nitrates it produces are dealt with in a
> > heavily planted tank.
> >
> > It doesn't need a big space for its territory - one male of mine with
about
> > 50 gallons available clings to the inside of a coconut. Quite a few
hundred
> > young he has issued from that coconut in his time, with a little help
from
> > his females, of course ;-)
> >
> Neat. I've never kept a pair of Ancistrus before. I usually add a
> small Farlowella spp. to larger planted tanks instead. I like how they
> hang out nose-down in swords. Air breathing in small tanks is
> definately a nice bonus. Otocinclus gulp air as well, as do most if not
> all Loricariid catfish. Shrimp don't have that advantage, but they'll
> climb up on plant leaves close to the surface.
>

The mechanisms that allow it are present in all Loricariids, but I'm not
sure that it's ever been fully tested whether in some species it's become
non-functional.

Best,

Uncle Davey

[Dick]

On Sat, 14 May 2005 10:25:12 -0400, "NetMax"
> wrote:

>"lgb" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>>
>>> One problem I have run into with one of my 10 gallon tanks, is growth.
>>> The plants started small, but have grown to where they fill the tank.
>>> I had to cut an Anubia in half, and the bottom half is again over half
>>> way to the top. And I don't even use CO2!
>>>
>> I planted 10 pygmy chain sword plants in a 10 gallon. Last month I
>> pulled out a big double handfull. I should have believed the statement
>> that they put out "2 new runners a week." But they do make a nice lawn
>> :-).
>>
>>
>>> I find aquarium plants almost as much fun as the fish and the fish do
>>> enjoy the plants.
>>>
>> Watch it! Before long you'll start describing yourself as an aquatic
>> gardener and rating fish by whether or not they're beneficial to your
>> plants :-).
>>
>> --
>> BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever
>
>LOL, I had a customer who knew the name and date of introduction for
>every plant in their tank. When I asked what kind of a fish they had, I
>got a bit of a blank look while they mumbled... a couple of red ones and
>a green one.... ;~).

I am constantly amazed that we all are fulfilling such different needs
through this hobby. I have one 10 gallon tank I keep stocked mainly
to display its Mill House ornament. It is the eye catcher. The fish
and the mill wheel provide movement, but it is the large Mill House in
center stage that steals the show.

In my other tanks, while the plants are evident, they are the
background for fish activity.

We have all read those quite interested in tank chemistry, or fish
illness, I recall one discussion about using colored gravel to form
works of art, some focus on breeding, the list goes on.

What a great hobby! Something for everyone.

dick

[Dick]

On Sat, 14 May 2005 23:05:10 +0200, "Uncle Davey" >
wrote:

>
>Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
m...
>> Uncle Davey wrote:
>> > Uzytkownik "Elaine T" > napisal w wiadomosci
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>Uncle Davey wrote:
>> >>
>> >><snip>
>> >>
>> >>>A good fish choice is of course the Clown loach, as this will take care
>> >
>> > of
>> >
>> >>>any snails you introduce unwittingly with the plants. Ancistrus is an
>> >>>adequate algae eater which will not destroy the plants if they are
>given
>> >>>lettuce and bogwood. Otocinclus is also a good choice.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Clown loaches will outgrow a 15 gallon tank. I decided on a pygmy
>> >>chained loach (Botia sidthimunki) for snail patrol in my 15 gal. A
>> >>kuhli loach (Acanthophthalmus kuhlii) is another that will stay an
>> >>appropriate size for 15 gallons.
>> >
>> >
>> > Clowns don't grow that much in smaller tanks, as they are quite
>pheromone
>> > sensitive. Gyrinocheilus is less likely to dwarf.
>>
>> I didn't know clowns were that pheromone sensitive. I do a lot of water
>> changes and used to always run with Chemi-pure, so maybe that's why I
>> ended up with 3 4" clowns in a 29 gallon tank. They swam around a lot
>> at night, and tended to uproot the stem plants as they nosed around in
>> the gravel. Eventually, I moved them 55 gal. I can't IMAGINE those
>> characters in a 15 gal, thus my thinking that clowns would grow too large.
>
>I never yet saw big clowns in a little tank unless someone was doing a jolly
>good job with the water changes.
>
As stated, you make good sense to me, but the kicker is the usual
expectation that Clown Loaches are all going to become BIG. The 2
Clowns in my 10 gallon tank seem no different than the 9 in two other
tanks. Although I bought the Clowns from the same internet vendor
almost 2 years ago, the two largest are in the 29 gallon tank and the
two in the 10 are about the same size as those in the 75 gallon tank.
Hard to out guess "Mother Nature!"

>>
>> Gyrinocheilus (Chinese algae eater) is not a fish I recommend to anyone
>> - nor did you, I notice. They're downright mean when they get big. Did
>> you mean C. siamensis when you refered to dwarfing?
>
>I had G. aymonieri in mind, which is all that's in the trade where I am.
>
>>
>> >>I think Ancistrus is also bit large for the number of plants and amount
>> >>of algae found in a 15 gallon tank. Algae wafers and wood help, but
>> >>I've still found some minor damage from Ancistrus spp. I've kept in
>> >>large tanks. I think the damage would not be so minor in a 15.
>> >>Otocinclus are perfect, as are Amano shrimp or other Caridina spp.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > One advantage Ancistrus has even in smaller conditions is that is is an
>> > atmospheric air breather when necessary. In a heavily planted small
>tank, as
>> > you know the plants only engage in photosynthesis by day, but they
>respire
>> > oxygen all the time, and at night a heavily planted tank at higher
>summer
>> > temperatures can become depleted of oxygen. Ancistrus has no great
>problem
>> > with this. At the same time the nitrates it produces are dealt with in a
>> > heavily planted tank.
>> >
>> > It doesn't need a big space for its territory - one male of mine with
>about
>> > 50 gallons available clings to the inside of a coconut. Quite a few
>hundred
>> > young he has issued from that coconut in his time, with a little help
>from
>> > his females, of course ;-)
>> >
>> Neat. I've never kept a pair of Ancistrus before. I usually add a
>> small Farlowella spp. to larger planted tanks instead. I like how they
>> hang out nose-down in swords. Air breathing in small tanks is
>> definately a nice bonus. Otocinclus gulp air as well, as do most if not
>> all Loricariid catfish. Shrimp don't have that advantage, but they'll
>> climb up on plant leaves close to the surface.
>>
>
>The mechanisms that allow it are present in all Loricariids, but I'm not
>sure that it's ever been fully tested whether in some species it's become
>non-functional.
>
>Best,
>
>Uncle Davey
>

[Phil Williamson]

The bare tank is now up and running with a 2 inch layer of flourite in it.
I found that using both of my hoods, each with 2 x 10 watt power compacts @
6500k, I could effectively light up the bottom of my tank without heat
problems. I've got the temp up to around 78 degrees and am treating the
water with water conditioner to remove the chlorine and adding Cycle once a
week to help start bacteria colonies.

What is the ideal temp I should be running this planted tank at?

When should I start adding plants?

How can I tell when to start adding fertilizer?

I have a Hagen CO2 yeast reactor system, when should I start utilizing this
piece of equipment and where is the optimum placement for the bubble
chamber?

Thanks everyone!.

Phil...

[Elaine T]

Phil Williamson wrote:
> The bare tank is now up and running with a 2 inch layer of flourite in it.
> I found that using both of my hoods, each with 2 x 10 watt power compacts @
> 6500k, I could effectively light up the bottom of my tank without heat
> problems. I've got the temp up to around 78 degrees and am treating the
> water with water conditioner to remove the chlorine and adding Cycle once a
> week to help start bacteria colonies.
>
> What is the ideal temp I should be running this planted tank at?
>
> When should I start adding plants?
>
> How can I tell when to start adding fertilizer?
>
> I have a Hagen CO2 yeast reactor system, when should I start utilizing this
> piece of equipment and where is the optimum placement for the bubble
> chamber?
>
> Thanks everyone!.
>
> Phil...
>
>
You don't mention adding ammonia or fish. Are you trying to fishless
cycle? Cycle doesn't do anything without ammonia, and even with its
benefit is debatable.

IMO, the ideal temp for a plated tank is 74-78 unless fish species
demand otherwise.

Your tank is ready for plants. I would immediately add enough plants to
cover at least half of the substrate (allowing room for plants to grow)
and a couple of small fish. It is very important to add a lot of plants
at the start so that they start using nutrients and you don't have algae
problems. You probably won't even see a much of a cycle because the
plants provide a filter. Wait through any small cycle or until your
filter has brownish bacterial growth (about a month) and then gradually
add more fish.

Good "starter" plants are weedy, fast-growing ones like Hygrophila spp.,
Rotala indica, Egeria (warm-water anacharis), water sprite, Ambulia or
Java moss. Take the lead weights off bunch plants and plant
individually or by 2's and 3's. They help keep excess nutrients out of
the water while the slower starting rooted plants like grasses and
crypts get established.

Start adding CO2 and fertilizer as soon as you have added the plants. I
consider optimum placement of a bubble chamber somewhere in current from
the filter outflow to help the CO2 mix into the tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Phil Williamson]

Thanks Elaine!

I added 4 small danios yesterday to get the cycling started. I have to wait
until Thursday to get my plants since that's when my LFS gets their weekly
stock in. Speaking of which, last time I was there I saw what looked like
clippings of other plants with a lead band to hold then together in the
substrate, how do you deal with these plants since they don't have roots?

Phil..

> You don't mention adding ammonia or fish. Are you trying to fishless
> cycle? Cycle doesn't do anything without ammonia, and even with its
> benefit is debatable.
>
> IMO, the ideal temp for a plated tank is 74-78 unless fish species
> demand otherwise.
>
> Your tank is ready for plants. I would immediately add enough plants to
> cover at least half of the substrate (allowing room for plants to grow)
> and a couple of small fish. It is very important to add a lot of plants
> at the start so that they start using nutrients and you don't have algae
> problems. You probably won't even see a much of a cycle because the
> plants provide a filter. Wait through any small cycle or until your
> filter has brownish bacterial growth (about a month) and then gradually
> add more fish.
>
> Good "starter" plants are weedy, fast-growing ones like Hygrophila spp.,
> Rotala indica, Egeria (warm-water anacharis), water sprite, Ambulia or
> Java moss. Take the lead weights off bunch plants and plant
> individually or by 2's and 3's. They help keep excess nutrients out of
> the water while the slower starting rooted plants like grasses and
> crypts get established.
>
> Start adding CO2 and fertilizer as soon as you have added the plants. I
> consider optimum placement of a bubble chamber somewhere in current from
> the filter outflow to help the CO2 mix into the tank.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
> rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Elaine T]

Phil Williamson wrote:
> Thanks Elaine!
>
> I added 4 small danios yesterday to get the cycling started. I have to wait
> until Thursday to get my plants since that's when my LFS gets their weekly
> stock in. Speaking of which, last time I was there I saw what looked like
> clippings of other plants with a lead band to hold then together in the
> substrate, how do you deal with these plants since they don't have roots?
>
> Phil..
>
>
>>You don't mention adding ammonia or fish. Are you trying to fishless
>>cycle? Cycle doesn't do anything without ammonia, and even with its
>>benefit is debatable.
>>
>>IMO, the ideal temp for a plated tank is 74-78 unless fish species
>>demand otherwise.
>>
>>Your tank is ready for plants. I would immediately add enough plants to
>>cover at least half of the substrate (allowing room for plants to grow)
>>and a couple of small fish. It is very important to add a lot of plants
>>at the start so that they start using nutrients and you don't have algae
>>problems. You probably won't even see a much of a cycle because the
>>plants provide a filter. Wait through any small cycle or until your
>>filter has brownish bacterial growth (about a month) and then gradually
>>add more fish.
>>
>>Good "starter" plants are weedy, fast-growing ones like Hygrophila spp.,
>>Rotala indica, Egeria (warm-water anacharis), water sprite, Ambulia or
>>Java moss. Take the lead weights off bunch plants and plant
>>individually or by 2's and 3's. They help keep excess nutrients out of
>>the water while the slower starting rooted plants like grasses and
>>crypts get established.
>>
>>Start adding CO2 and fertilizer as soon as you have added the plants. I
>>consider optimum placement of a bubble chamber somewhere in current from
>>the filter outflow to help the CO2 mix into the tank.
>>
>>--
>>Elaine T __
>>http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>>rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
>
>
>
They are clippings. Take the lead band off, cut any decaying parts off
of the stems, gently strip the leaves from the bottom 2", and push the
stems individually into the substrate. Most bunched plants will root.
When they grow to the top of the tank (sometimes suprisingly quickly),
cut the top off and plant it. The bottom half will usually sprout side
branches (depending on the plant) and the top will root.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Phil Williamson]

The tank is now planted and I put some 1/2 strength liquid fertilizer in the
water to get them started. I'm using an aquaclear 200 which is rated for
20-50 gallons. To reduce surface agitation, I'm running the thing at
minimum speed. Is this a good idea or can it be run full tilt as long as it
doesn't aggitate the surface too much? I've also just put the CO2 generator
into the tank just under the aquaclear so it blows water over the top of it.
How long do you think it's going to be before the plants start taking hold?

Phil..

[Elaine T]

Phil Williamson wrote:
> The tank is now planted and I put some 1/2 strength liquid fertilizer in the
> water to get them started. I'm using an aquaclear 200 which is rated for
> 20-50 gallons. To reduce surface agitation, I'm running the thing at
> minimum speed. Is this a good idea or can it be run full tilt as long as it
> doesn't aggitate the surface too much? I've also just put the CO2 generator
> into the tank just under the aquaclear so it blows water over the top of it.
> How long do you think it's going to be before the plants start taking hold?
>
> Phil..
>
>
Sounds like running the filter on low is good, since you've got a filter
that's rated for a larger tank. I have an AquaClear 20 (old 150) on my
15 tall and the fish find the current strong.

The plants should start lining up and reaching for the light in a couple
of days. You'll have new leaves starting on stem plants in a week easily.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com