Help...Persistant Ich

[Clara]

Hi,

I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a very
persistant case of Ich in our tank.

Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as they should
be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new neons recently
and we are assuming that's where the problem came from (unfortunatly we
don't have a quarantine tank).

Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based formula
but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been going on
for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of improvement, just
gets worse every day.

I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off the lights
and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest concer are my
breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the tank for about 3
years now and are both showing signs of this problem.

Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be very
gratefully received

Getting quite desparate now :-(

Clara

[Gill Passman]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a very
> persistant case of Ich in our tank.
>
> Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as they
should
> be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new neons
recently
> and we are assuming that's where the problem came from (unfortunatly we
> don't have a quarantine tank).
>
> Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based formula
> but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
> instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been going on
> for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of improvement, just
> gets worse every day.
>
> I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off the
lights
> and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest concer are my
> breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the tank for about 3
> years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
>
> Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be very
> gratefully received
>
> Getting quite desparate now :-(
>
> Clara
>
>
>
I went through much the same as you a few weeks ago with my Clown Loaches
after adding water from an LFS. I think the answer was to be as persistant
as the Ich was. Here's what I did:-

1. Raised the temperature to 83F initially (in the end I think it went up to
86F). An air brick at this point becomes somewhat essential.

2. Treated with a formaldehyde based treatment called Interpet Anti White
Spot Plus which I had had success with before - no luck

3. Started feeding a high protein diet - no real scientific basis for doing
this. I just figured that if they were fighting off the Ich they needed all
the strength I could give them.

4. When the meds didn't work I started adding low doses of salt. Combined
with adding the salt I spent a week of doing daily thorough gravel vacs and
30% water changes. At this point I'd got carbon in the filter to pull out
the first batch of meds.
Also tried the "lights out" option - turning them only to feed and do a
health check twice daily.

5. At the end of this week I then started adding Protozin. I did not touch
the water - so it still contained some of the salt.

6. Just over a week from adding the first Protozin dose everyone was clear.

It was only 4 of my Clown Loaches that were affected however I did lose some
fish through the treatment and the clean up. Casualties were 2 Platys, 1
Neon and 2 Guppies. The Clowns got better gradually so I can't say exactly
which of the treatments I gave was the best (one cleared up with just the
salt).

I believe the Guppies died due to a water quality issue that occured a few
days after the treatment - someone else has also recently posted a similar
issue (see "Mid Cycle"). My tank was heavily planted and the treatment led
to a lot of dead plant matter which led to a nitrite spike (probably an
ammonia one as well but I didn't detect it). So once the treatment is
complete I strongly advise a good clean up of all debris - I removed all the
plants, heavily vacced the gravel, rinsed the filter medium in tank water,
made sure none of the valves were blocked from plant debris and did a 30%
change.

Hope things clear up soon.

Gill

[Iain Miller]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a very
> persistant case of Ich in our tank.
>
> Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as they
> should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new neons
> recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
> (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
>
> Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based formula
> but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
> instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been going on
> for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of improvement, just
> gets worse every day.
>
> I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off the
> lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest concer
> are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the tank for
> about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
>
> Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be very
> gratefully received
>
> Getting quite desparate now :-(

Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose if you
have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or adding salt.
If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in warmer
water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.

Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber that the
white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are buried under
the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out & become free
swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much change for 2-3
days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the meds back
out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish heal.

I.

[Gill Passman]

"Iain Miller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Clara" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a very
> > persistant case of Ich in our tank.
> >
> > Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as they
> > should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new
neons
> > recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
> > (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
> >
> > Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based
formula
> > but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
> > instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been going
on
> > for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of improvement,
just
> > gets worse every day.
> >
> > I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off the
> > lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest concer
> > are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the tank
for
> > about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
> >
> > Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be very
> > gratefully received
> >
> > Getting quite desparate now :-(
>
> Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose if you
> have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or adding
salt.
> If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in warmer
> water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.
>
> Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber that the
> white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are buried
under
> the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out & become free
> swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much change for
2-3
> days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the meds
back
> out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish heal.
>
> I.
>
>
>
Yep, that was the last med that I used that finally cleared it

[Clara]

Thanks for the help, I think we'll definitly give the Protazin a try. Have
to gamble a couple of days with salt and temp raises with the carbon back in
to clean out the esha stuff.

Lost one of the neons today, hopefully the bristlenoses will hold on through
this, they were fairly healthy before.

Finger's crossed!



"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Iain Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Clara" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a very
>> > persistant case of Ich in our tank.
>> >
>> > Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as they
>> > should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new
> neons
>> > recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
>> > (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
>> >
>> > Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based
> formula
>> > but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
>> > instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been going
> on
>> > for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of improvement,
> just
>> > gets worse every day.
>> >
>> > I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off the
>> > lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest concer
>> > are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the tank
> for
>> > about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
>> >
>> > Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be
>> > very
>> > gratefully received
>> >
>> > Getting quite desparate now :-(
>>
>> Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose if you
>> have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or adding
> salt.
>> If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in warmer
>> water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.
>>
>> Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber that the
>> white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are buried
> under
>> the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out & become free
>> swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much change for
> 2-3
>> days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the meds
> back
>> out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish heal.
>>
>> I.
>>
>>
>>
> Yep, that was the last med that I used that finally cleared it
>
>

[Gill Passman]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the help, I think we'll definitly give the Protazin a try. Have
> to gamble a couple of days with salt and temp raises with the carbon back
in
> to clean out the esha stuff.
>
> Lost one of the neons today, hopefully the bristlenoses will hold on
through
> this, they were fairly healthy before.
>
> Finger's crossed!
>
>
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Iain Miller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Clara" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a
very
> >> > persistant case of Ich in our tank.
> >> >
> >> > Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as they
> >> > should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new
> > neons
> >> > recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
> >> > (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
> >> >
> >> > Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based
> > formula
> >> > but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
> >> > instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been
going
> > on
> >> > for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of improvement,
> > just
> >> > gets worse every day.
> >> >
> >> > I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off the
> >> > lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest
concer
> >> > are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the tank
> > for
> >> > about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
> >> >
> >> > Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be
> >> > very
> >> > gratefully received
> >> >
> >> > Getting quite desparate now :-(
> >>
> >> Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose if
you
> >> have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or adding
> > salt.
> >> If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in warmer
> >> water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.
> >>
> >> Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber that the
> >> white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are buried
> > under
> >> the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out & become
free
> >> swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much change
for
> > 2-3
> >> days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the meds
> > back
> >> out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish heal.
> >>
> >> I.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > Yep, that was the last med that I used that finally cleared it
> >
> >
>
>
My Clowns were healthy before as well....I'm sure this makes a positive
contribution to their survival. Most of the time that I have read about
deaths from Ich it is mainly the new fish, already weakened that succumbed -
another reason why I went for the high protein diet - to bolster up the
already healthy fish - worth a try I think while you are waiting for the
previous meds to clear. It it's Neons only that you are losing this might
bear this out as well....

Gill

[Clara]

More deaths today, been fishing out dead neons half the morning. The cats
are still alive...and one guppy.

Got the protozin at the ready to treat tomorrow. Doing a large water change
today with some salt.

Anybody know if the brislenoses are one of the scaleless fish...need to half
the dose of protozin if so?

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Clara" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thanks for the help, I think we'll definitly give the Protazin a try.
>> Have
>> to gamble a couple of days with salt and temp raises with the carbon back
> in
>> to clean out the esha stuff.
>>
>> Lost one of the neons today, hopefully the bristlenoses will hold on
> through
>> this, they were fairly healthy before.
>>
>> Finger's crossed!
>>
>>
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >
>> > "Iain Miller" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> "Clara" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a
> very
>> >> > persistant case of Ich in our tank.
>> >> >
>> >> > Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as
>> >> > they
>> >> > should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new
>> > neons
>> >> > recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
>> >> > (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
>> >> >
>> >> > Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based
>> > formula
>> >> > but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
>> >> > instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been
> going
>> > on
>> >> > for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of
>> >> > improvement,
>> > just
>> >> > gets worse every day.
>> >> >
>> >> > I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off
>> >> > the
>> >> > lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest
> concer
>> >> > are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the
>> >> > tank
>> > for
>> >> > about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
>> >> >
>> >> > Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be
>> >> > very
>> >> > gratefully received
>> >> >
>> >> > Getting quite desparate now :-(
>> >>
>> >> Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose if
> you
>> >> have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or adding
>> > salt.
>> >> If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in
>> >> warmer
>> >> water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.
>> >>
>> >> Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber that
>> >> the
>> >> white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are buried
>> > under
>> >> the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out & become
> free
>> >> swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much change
> for
>> > 2-3
>> >> days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the
>> >> meds
>> > back
>> >> out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish heal.
>> >>
>> >> I.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Yep, that was the last med that I used that finally cleared it
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
> My Clowns were healthy before as well....I'm sure this makes a positive
> contribution to their survival. Most of the time that I have read about
> deaths from Ich it is mainly the new fish, already weakened that
> succumbed -
> another reason why I went for the high protein diet - to bolster up the
> already healthy fish - worth a try I think while you are waiting for the
> previous meds to clear. It it's Neons only that you are losing this might
> bear this out as well....
>
> Gill
>
>

[Iain Miller]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> More deaths today, been fishing out dead neons half the morning. The cats
> are still alive...and one guppy.
>
> Got the protozin at the ready to treat tomorrow. Doing a large water
> change today with some salt.
>
> Anybody know if the brislenoses are one of the scaleless fish...need to
> half the dose of protozin if so?

Forget the salt. Change the water & put the Protazin in. Don't think the
Bristlenoses are scaleless. Come to think of it they are fairly tough
skinned - a bit like Plecos & I'm surprised they got Ich at all.

I.

[Clara]

We're fairly surprised as well, they have been in the tank for 3 years and
have been really happy. We had a dose of ich about 21/2 years ago which took
out most of our other fish, and depressed us so much in the early days but
the cats seemed to be unaffected. These are the first new fish we added
since then, our pearl gourami died apparently of old age about 6 months ago
and we thought it was time to try something else in there. Should have left
well alone!
I guess we'll be getting a quarantine tank now, have to find somewhere to
put it...
"Iain Miller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Clara" > wrote in message
> ...
>> More deaths today, been fishing out dead neons half the morning. The cats
>> are still alive...and one guppy.
>>
>> Got the protozin at the ready to treat tomorrow. Doing a large water
>> change today with some salt.
>>
>> Anybody know if the brislenoses are one of the scaleless fish...need to
>> half the dose of protozin if so?
>
> Forget the salt. Change the water & put the Protazin in. Don't think the
> Bristlenoses are scaleless. Come to think of it they are fairly tough
> skinned - a bit like Plecos & I'm surprised they got Ich at all.
>
> I.
>

[Elaine T]

Iain Miller wrote:
> "Clara" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>More deaths today, been fishing out dead neons half the morning. The cats
>>are still alive...and one guppy.
>>
>>Got the protozin at the ready to treat tomorrow. Doing a large water
>>change today with some salt.
>>
>>Anybody know if the brislenoses are one of the scaleless fish...need to
>>half the dose of protozin if so?
>
>
> Forget the salt. Change the water & put the Protazin in. Don't think the
> Bristlenoses are scaleless. Come to think of it they are fairly tough
> skinned - a bit like Plecos & I'm surprised they got Ich at all.
>
> I.
>
>
They ARE plecos. ;-) They'll be fine with the Protazin.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> More deaths today, been fishing out dead neons half the morning. The
> cats are still alive...and one guppy.
>
> Got the protozin at the ready to treat tomorrow. Doing a large water
> change today with some salt.
>
> Anybody know if the brislenoses are one of the scaleless fish...need to
> half the dose of protozin if so?
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
>>
>> "Clara" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Thanks for the help, I think we'll definitly give the Protazin a try.
>>> Have
>>> to gamble a couple of days with salt and temp raises with the carbon
>>> back
>> in
>>> to clean out the esha stuff.
>>>
>>> Lost one of the neons today, hopefully the bristlenoses will hold on
>> through
>>> this, they were fairly healthy before.
>>>
>>> Finger's crossed!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>> >
>>> > "Iain Miller" > wrote in message
>>> > ...
>>> >>
>>> >> "Clara" > wrote in message
>>> >> ...
>>> >> > Hi,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have
>>> >> > a
>> very
>>> >> > persistant case of Ich in our tank.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as
>>> >> > they
>>> >> > should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9
>>> >> > new
>>> > neons
>>> >> > recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
>>> >> > (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green
>>> >> > based
>>> > formula
>>> >> > but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been
>> going
>>> > on
>>> >> > for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of
>>> >> > improvement,
>>> > just
>>> >> > gets worse every day.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched
>>> >> > off the
>>> >> > lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest
>> concer
>>> >> > are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the
>>> >> > tank
>>> > for
>>> >> > about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would
>>> >> > be
>>> >> > very
>>> >> > gratefully received
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Getting quite desparate now :-(
>>> >>
>>> >> Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose
>>> >> if
>> you
>>> >> have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or
>>> >> adding
>>> > salt.
>>> >> If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in
>>> >> warmer
>>> >> water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber
>>> >> that the
>>> >> white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are
>>> >> buried
>>> > under
>>> >> the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out &
>>> >> become
>> free
>>> >> swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much
>>> >> change
>> for
>>> > 2-3
>>> >> days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the
>>> >> meds
>>> > back
>>> >> out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish
>>> >> heal.
>>> >>
>>> >> I.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> > Yep, that was the last med that I used that finally cleared it
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>> My Clowns were healthy before as well....I'm sure this makes a
>> positive
>> contribution to their survival. Most of the time that I have read
>> about
>> deaths from Ich it is mainly the new fish, already weakened that
>> succumbed -
>> another reason why I went for the high protein diet - to bolster up
>> the
>> already healthy fish - worth a try I think while you are waiting for
>> the
>> previous meds to clear. It it's Neons only that you are losing this
>> might
>> bear this out as well....
>>
>> Gill



I hope Clara is starting to see some improvements. My understanding is
that armoured catfish can be classified as scaleless. Scaled fish
expand/contract their bodies with their meals, but armoured cats cannot,
so their underbelly is very soft and flexible to be able to expand after
a meal. Perhaps you've noticed your Bushynose or Corys sitting a little
taller after a particularly large meal. This medication-vulnerable patch
of their belly is what can classify them as scaleless (from an osmotic
perspective). However, because their belly represents a smaller portion
of their body than the whole surface of a true scaleless fish, ymmv in
regards to medicinal treatments. Some medications precipitate slightly
on the substrate, which works against the armoured cats more than the
scaleless fish, so again, ymmv. With Ich, the parasite concentration
will be higher initially (and sometimes remain so) nearest to the
substrate where they are hatching (a double-whammy for Clown loaches,
scaleless and bottom feeder).

It's interesting to note that there is a strong pro and con happening
right now. Clara's fish's immune systems have after 3 years of isolation
become very inactive (from lack of use), so it'll take them longer to
develop their natural immunity (a disadvantage to the Clown loaches who
have no barrier to the Ich). On the other hand, if kept in good
conditions with a varied diet, these fish will have a tremendous energy
reserve to battle the disease.

Typically Clowns and small tetras succumb to this situation, though with
rapid aggressive treatment the Clowns can be 50/50. I hope Clara beats
those odds.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Clara]

Hi,

Thanks for the info everyone. Sadly we have lost almost everything, we got
back from an overnight away to find "big dude" dead along with the last of
the smaller cats. We now only have the old female left.

I'm on Day 2 of the protozin (at the half dose) and will continue to treat
while she is alive. Am beginning to wonder if there is some other problem in
there as well but all tests still ok and no other symptons other than very
obviously white spot from the start.

The annoying thing is we caught it at such early days we thought we'd be ok.

I guess we'll be starting over again...

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Clara" > wrote in message
> ...
>> More deaths today, been fishing out dead neons half the morning. The cats
>> are still alive...and one guppy.
>>
>> Got the protozin at the ready to treat tomorrow. Doing a large water
>> change today with some salt.
>>
>> Anybody know if the brislenoses are one of the scaleless fish...need to
>> half the dose of protozin if so?
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>>>
>>> "Clara" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Thanks for the help, I think we'll definitly give the Protazin a try.
>>>> Have
>>>> to gamble a couple of days with salt and temp raises with the carbon
>>>> back
>>> in
>>>> to clean out the esha stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Lost one of the neons today, hopefully the bristlenoses will hold on
>>> through
>>>> this, they were fairly healthy before.
>>>>
>>>> Finger's crossed!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> .. .
>>>> >
>>>> > "Iain Miller" > wrote in message
>>>> > ...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "Clara" > wrote in message
>>>> >> ...
>>>> >> > Hi,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a
>>> very
>>>> >> > persistant case of Ich in our tank.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as
>>>> >> > they
>>>> >> > should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9
>>>> >> > new
>>>> > neons
>>>> >> > recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
>>>> >> > (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based
>>>> > formula
>>>> >> > but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been
>>> going
>>>> > on
>>>> >> > for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of
>>>> >> > improvement,
>>>> > just
>>>> >> > gets worse every day.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off
>>>> >> > the
>>>> >> > lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest
>>> concer
>>>> >> > are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the
>>>> >> > tank
>>>> > for
>>>> >> > about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would
>>>> >> > be
>>>> >> > very
>>>> >> > gratefully received
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Getting quite desparate now :-(
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose if
>>> you
>>>> >> have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or
>>>> >> adding
>>>> > salt.
>>>> >> If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in
>>>> >> warmer
>>>> >> water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber that
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are
>>>> >> buried
>>>> > under
>>>> >> the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out & become
>>> free
>>>> >> swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much change
>>> for
>>>> > 2-3
>>>> >> days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the
>>>> >> meds
>>>> > back
>>>> >> out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish
>>>> >> heal.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> > Yep, that was the last med that I used that finally cleared it
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>> My Clowns were healthy before as well....I'm sure this makes a positive
>>> contribution to their survival. Most of the time that I have read about
>>> deaths from Ich it is mainly the new fish, already weakened that
>>> succumbed -
>>> another reason why I went for the high protein diet - to bolster up the
>>> already healthy fish - worth a try I think while you are waiting for the
>>> previous meds to clear. It it's Neons only that you are losing this
>>> might
>>> bear this out as well....
>>>
>>> Gill
>
>
>
> I hope Clara is starting to see some improvements. My understanding is
> that armoured catfish can be classified as scaleless. Scaled fish
> expand/contract their bodies with their meals, but armoured cats cannot,
> so their underbelly is very soft and flexible to be able to expand after a
> meal. Perhaps you've noticed your Bushynose or Corys sitting a little
> taller after a particularly large meal. This medication-vulnerable patch
> of their belly is what can classify them as scaleless (from an osmotic
> perspective). However, because their belly represents a smaller portion
> of their body than the whole surface of a true scaleless fish, ymmv in
> regards to medicinal treatments. Some medications precipitate slightly on
> the substrate, which works against the armoured cats more than the
> scaleless fish, so again, ymmv. With Ich, the parasite concentration will
> be higher initially (and sometimes remain so) nearest to the substrate
> where they are hatching (a double-whammy for Clown loaches, scaleless and
> bottom feeder).
>
> It's interesting to note that there is a strong pro and con happening
> right now. Clara's fish's immune systems have after 3 years of isolation
> become very inactive (from lack of use), so it'll take them longer to
> develop their natural immunity (a disadvantage to the Clown loaches who
> have no barrier to the Ich). On the other hand, if kept in good
> conditions with a varied diet, these fish will have a tremendous energy
> reserve to battle the disease.
>
> Typically Clowns and small tetras succumb to this situation, though with
> rapid aggressive treatment the Clowns can be 50/50. I hope Clara beats
> those odds.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Gill Passman]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the info everyone. Sadly we have lost almost everything, we got
> back from an overnight away to find "big dude" dead along with the last of
> the smaller cats. We now only have the old female left.
>
> I'm on Day 2 of the protozin (at the half dose) and will continue to treat
> while she is alive. Am beginning to wonder if there is some other problem
in
> there as well but all tests still ok and no other symptons other than very
> obviously white spot from the start.
>
> The annoying thing is we caught it at such early days we thought we'd be
ok.
>
> I guess we'll be starting over again...
>
> "NetMax" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Clara" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> More deaths today, been fishing out dead neons half the morning. The
cats
> >> are still alive...and one guppy.
> >>
> >> Got the protozin at the ready to treat tomorrow. Doing a large water
> >> change today with some salt.
> >>
> >> Anybody know if the brislenoses are one of the scaleless fish...need to
> >> half the dose of protozin if so?
> >>
> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >>>
> >>> "Clara" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> Thanks for the help, I think we'll definitly give the Protazin a try.
> >>>> Have
> >>>> to gamble a couple of days with salt and temp raises with the carbon
> >>>> back
> >>> in
> >>>> to clean out the esha stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lost one of the neons today, hopefully the bristlenoses will hold on
> >>> through
> >>>> this, they were fairly healthy before.
> >>>>
> >>>> Finger's crossed!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>>> .. .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > "Iain Miller" > wrote in message
> >>>> > ...
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> "Clara" > wrote in message
> >>>> >> ...
> >>>> >> > Hi,
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have
a
> >>> very
> >>>> >> > persistant case of Ich in our tank.
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as
> >>>> >> > they
> >>>> >> > should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9
> >>>> >> > new
> >>>> > neons
> >>>> >> > recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
> >>>> >> > (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green
based
> >>>> > formula
> >>>> >> > but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed
> >>>> >> > the
> >>>> >> > instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been
> >>> going
> >>>> > on
> >>>> >> > for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of
> >>>> >> > improvement,
> >>>> > just
> >>>> >> > gets worse every day.
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched
off
> >>>> >> > the
> >>>> >> > lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest
> >>> concer
> >>>> >> > are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the
> >>>> >> > tank
> >>>> > for
> >>>> >> > about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would
> >>>> >> > be
> >>>> >> > very
> >>>> >> > gratefully received
> >>>> >> >
> >>>> >> > Getting quite desparate now :-(
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Go and get some Protazin (made by Waterlife). Only use a 3/4 dose
if
> >>> you
> >>>> >> have things like loaches. I don't bother with raising temps or
> >>>> >> adding
> >>>> > salt.
> >>>> >> If you do raise temps then add an airstone - much less oxygen in
> >>>> >> warmer
> >>>> >> water. Not keen on adding salt either - the plants don't like it.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Its a 5 or 6 day treatment & its never failed me yet. Remmeber
that
> >>>> >> the
> >>>> >> white spots you see on the fish are where the parasite eggs are
> >>>> >> buried
> >>>> > under
> >>>> >> the skin. You can only kill the things once they erupt out &
become
> >>> free
> >>>> >> swimming which takes a couple of days - so you won't see much
change
> >>> for
> >>>> > 2-3
> >>>> >> days. After all is done use some carbon in your filter to take the
> >>>> >> meds
> >>>> > back
> >>>> >> out the water and a dose of Melafix won't hurt to help the fish
> >>>> >> heal.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> > Yep, that was the last med that I used that finally cleared it
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> My Clowns were healthy before as well....I'm sure this makes a
positive
> >>> contribution to their survival. Most of the time that I have read
about
> >>> deaths from Ich it is mainly the new fish, already weakened that
> >>> succumbed -
> >>> another reason why I went for the high protein diet - to bolster up
the
> >>> already healthy fish - worth a try I think while you are waiting for
the
> >>> previous meds to clear. It it's Neons only that you are losing this
> >>> might
> >>> bear this out as well....
> >>>
> >>> Gill
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope Clara is starting to see some improvements. My understanding is
> > that armoured catfish can be classified as scaleless. Scaled fish
> > expand/contract their bodies with their meals, but armoured cats cannot,
> > so their underbelly is very soft and flexible to be able to expand after
a
> > meal. Perhaps you've noticed your Bushynose or Corys sitting a little
> > taller after a particularly large meal. This medication-vulnerable
patch
> > of their belly is what can classify them as scaleless (from an osmotic
> > perspective). However, because their belly represents a smaller portion
> > of their body than the whole surface of a true scaleless fish, ymmv in
> > regards to medicinal treatments. Some medications precipitate slightly
on
> > the substrate, which works against the armoured cats more than the
> > scaleless fish, so again, ymmv. With Ich, the parasite concentration
will
> > be higher initially (and sometimes remain so) nearest to the substrate
> > where they are hatching (a double-whammy for Clown loaches, scaleless
and
> > bottom feeder).
> >
> > It's interesting to note that there is a strong pro and con happening
> > right now. Clara's fish's immune systems have after 3 years of
isolation
> > become very inactive (from lack of use), so it'll take them longer to
> > develop their natural immunity (a disadvantage to the Clown loaches who
> > have no barrier to the Ich). On the other hand, if kept in good
> > conditions with a varied diet, these fish will have a tremendous energy
> > reserve to battle the disease.
> >
> > Typically Clowns and small tetras succumb to this situation, though with
> > rapid aggressive treatment the Clowns can be 50/50. I hope Clara beats
> > those odds.
> > --
> > www.NetMax.tk
> >
>
>

Hi Clara,

Sorry to hear about your losses :-(

If you now only have the one cat left I would be inclined to get that QT
tank - add some of your existing filter medium, keep the bottom bare and put
her in there while you continue her treatment - a lot of the Ich will
actually be present in the water and gravel of your existing tank.

I would clean down and disinfect the existing tank and change all the
substrate for new - of course this means that you will need to cycle it
again...

Sorry again
Gill

[Daniel Morrow]

You have my condolences. I have never had to deal with ich yet to my
knowledge (I had 1 guppy with white spots on it a long time ago and I
successfully treated it with just the salt treatment in the hospital tank as
guppies can handle a lot of salt, and none of the other fish ever got it so
it must have not been ich) but my imagination can supply me with nightmarish
imagery of what happened to your late fish and you definitely have my
empathy. Good luck on starting over and I hope the best for you. Later!
"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the info everyone. Sadly we have lost almost everything, we got
> back from an overnight away to find "big dude" dead along with the last of
> the smaller cats. We now only have the old female left.
>
> I'm on Day 2 of the protozin (at the half dose) and will continue to treat
> while she is alive. Am beginning to wonder if there is some other problem
in
> there as well but all tests still ok and no other symptons other than very
> obviously white spot from the start.
>
> The annoying thing is we caught it at such early days we thought we'd be
ok.
>
> I guess we'll be starting over again...

[NetMax]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the info everyone. Sadly we have lost almost everything, we
> got back from an overnight away to find "big dude" dead along with the
> last of the smaller cats. We now only have the old female left.
>
> I'm on Day 2 of the protozin (at the half dose) and will continue to
> treat while she is alive. Am beginning to wonder if there is some other
> problem in there as well but all tests still ok and no other symptons
> other than very obviously white spot from the start.
>
> The annoying thing is we caught it at such early days we thought we'd
> be ok.
>
> I guess we'll be starting over again...


Condolences. It's heart breaking to lose mature Clown loaches to a
nuisance type disease like Ich. My last attempt at a Clown loach
species/display used a 120g tank and a good part of my profits for a
month to purchase large Clown loaches from Thailand. I lost them all,
it's very frustrating. My best luck is with 2 to 2-1/2" length. Smaller
or bigger and I have no luck.

I also had a customer lose 8 year old Clowns to Ich when she added an
unquarantined fish (fortunately the fish came from another store, but it
could easily been from one of my tanks too). Regardless, she was not
buying from that store again, so I discounted my stock to get her
restocked. She was quite distraught, but starting over with a new set-up
is therapeutic.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Jenn & Drew maillet]

Sorry to read that you've lost almost everyone in your tank. I have had
phenomenal success with a tea-tree extract called MELAFIX . I buy it at
Walmart, it's about $8. I've tried all other so-called tried and true
methods but to me, the raising temp, adding salt, homemade "cures" just
don't do the job. Good luck, and keep some of this stuff in your arsenal
for next time!

Jenn

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> I'm new to this group but looking for some help. We seem to have a very
> persistant case of Ich in our tank.
>
> Established (3years) 130 litre tank, water conditions are all as they
> should be, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate around 10. Put in 9 new neons
> recently and we are assuming that's where the problem came from
> (unfortunatly we don't have a quarantine tank).
>
> Have treated with Esha Exit ( I think it's a malachite green based formula
> but no ingredients on packaging) as advised by the LFS, followed the
> instructions and the problem appears to just get worse. Has been going on
> for about 10 days now and showing absolutely no signs of improvement, just
> gets worse every day.
>
> I've read up on the other posts on here and have now switched off the
> lights and raised the temp, and will try adding salt. My biggest concer
> are my breeding pair of bristlenose catfish who have been in the tank for
> about 3 years now and are both showing signs of this problem.
>
> Any advice/medication suggestions that anyone can think of would be very
> gratefully received
>
> Getting quite desparate now :-(
>
> Clara
>
>
>

[Clara]

Thanks again everyone for all you help and support through this. Sadly the
last female died this morning.
I think Netmax was probably right, their immune systems were probably at a
low ebb having lived in a disease free environment for so long. We still are
wondering if there may have been some other virus/bacteria introduced with
the neons that may have also been passed around the tank, could be the
whitespot was caused because of that?

We will start over again though, this time after we purchase a QT tank.
We'll definitly get the bristlenoses again as they were the most
entertaining characters we ever got, funny cos we only bought then to clean
up an outbreak of algae...

Will be trying a different shop though, I don't think the existing one
quarantines long enough before their fish go on sale and I'm convinced
that's where the problem started.

"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> "Clara" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for the info everyone. Sadly we have lost almost everything, we
>> got back from an overnight away to find "big dude" dead along with the
>> last of the smaller cats. We now only have the old female left.
>>
>> I'm on Day 2 of the protozin (at the half dose) and will continue to
>> treat while she is alive. Am beginning to wonder if there is some other
>> problem in there as well but all tests still ok and no other symptons
>> other than very obviously white spot from the start.
>>
>> The annoying thing is we caught it at such early days we thought we'd be
>> ok.
>>
>> I guess we'll be starting over again...
>
>
> Condolences. It's heart breaking to lose mature Clown loaches to a
> nuisance type disease like Ich. My last attempt at a Clown loach
> species/display used a 120g tank and a good part of my profits for a month
> to purchase large Clown loaches from Thailand. I lost them all, it's very
> frustrating. My best luck is with 2 to 2-1/2" length. Smaller or bigger
> and I have no luck.
>
> I also had a customer lose 8 year old Clowns to Ich when she added an
> unquarantined fish (fortunately the fish came from another store, but it
> could easily been from one of my tanks too). Regardless, she was not
> buying from that store again, so I discounted my stock to get her
> restocked. She was quite distraught, but starting over with a new set-up
> is therapeutic.
> --
> www.NetMax.tk
>

[Iain Miller]

"Jenn & Drew maillet" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry to read that you've lost almost everyone in your tank. I have had
> phenomenal success with a tea-tree extract called MELAFIX . I buy it at
> Walmart, it's about $8. I've tried all other so-called tried and true
> methods but to me, the raising temp, adding salt, homemade "cures" just
> don't do the job. Good luck, and keep some of this stuff in your arsenal
> for next time!

I don't think Melafix will kill Ich. Ich is a parasite & Melafix is a
natural mild antibiotic of sorts. It will help the fish heal & recover post
Ich but I very much doubt it will kill the Ich Parasites.

I.

[Iain Miller]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the info everyone. Sadly we have lost almost everything, we got
> back from an overnight away to find "big dude" dead along with the last of
> the smaller cats. We now only have the old female left.

Hmmmm.....my condolances. I'd be a bit suspicious that what you've had is a
bit more serious than just plain old Ich.

I.

[NetMax]

"Clara" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks again everyone for all you help and support through this. Sadly the
> last female died this morning.
> I think Netmax was probably right, their immune systems were probably at a
> low ebb having lived in a disease free environment for so long. We still
> are wondering if there may have been some other virus/bacteria introduced
> with the neons that may have also been passed around the tank, could be
> the whitespot was caused because of that?
>
> We will start over again though, this time after we purchase a QT tank.
> We'll definitly get the bristlenoses again as they were the most
> entertaining characters we ever got, funny cos we only bought then to
> clean up an outbreak of algae...
>
> Will be trying a different shop though, I don't think the existing one
> quarantines long enough before their fish go on sale and I'm convinced
> that's where the problem started.


Just a comment. I don't think any shop quarantines their livestock to a
degree which you can count on. When I operated a shop, new arrivals would
be kept off sale for 1 day minimum, 2-3 days typical. For more-sensitive
species and all wild caught, the hold period was typically a week. Even a
week is really inadequate for proper quarantine, but it gave me sufficient
confidence to sell them. I'm mentioning this because I was under the
impression that most stores did less, some even selling fish a few hours
after arrival.

Also fish can carry diseases without obvious symptoms, such as internal
bacterial ailments (ie: TB) or parasites (internal or external). I start
feeling comfortable about their true health at around the 3 month mark
(though a typical quarantine is about 3 weeks). It is possible to buy from
a store which 'quarantined' them for a few days, and this will decrease the
likelihood of transit shock and of *some* diseases, but I wouldn't count on
much more than that. Just my 2 cents worth.

Regarding your fish, the probability is high that the Ich was just the
'visible' parasite, and the real contagion was a fast acting bacterial
infection. Although I have no supporting data, I've noticed that certain
diseases are very rapid acting on certain species but remain almost dormant
on others. In the trade we sometimes name diseases by the fish most
susceptible by them, like Angelfish disease (virus), Neon tetra disease
(NTD), Tiger Barb disease (twirling), Pleco disease (death in 24 hours
accompanied by Velvet) and livebearer disease (Columnaris) to name a few.
--
www.NetMax.tk .who rarely stops at just 2 cents ;~)