Water Chemistry Levels

[Chris]

Greetings and hallucinations!

I started a 29-gallon aquarium a month ago with a few zebra danios and a
couple of black tetras. I've been doing the water chemistry levels
religiously as it is going through the nitrogen cycle but the readings
I'm getting are alarming from what the chart says they should be.

There was a handy chart included with the aquarium. Normal levels as
per the sheet are in brackets for the fourth week of the cycle (20%
water change complied with last week).

Ammonia: 4.0 mg/L (normal 0)
Nitrite: 5.0 mg/L (normal 0 - 0.5)
Nitrate: 20 mg/L (normal 20)

Shouldn't the ammonia and nitrites be decreasing if the nitrate level is
at it's norm? The fish seem ok but the water is cloudy.

Forgive me, I'm new at this... Can anyone offer advice?

--

Chris
http://www.choxnpinz.com

[Elaine T]

Chris wrote:
> Greetings and hallucinations!
>
> I started a 29-gallon aquarium a month ago with a few zebra danios and a
> couple of black tetras. I've been doing the water chemistry levels
> religiously as it is going through the nitrogen cycle but the readings
> I'm getting are alarming from what the chart says they should be.
>
> There was a handy chart included with the aquarium. Normal levels as
> per the sheet are in brackets for the fourth week of the cycle (20%
> water change complied with last week).
>
> Ammonia: 4.0 mg/L (normal 0)
> Nitrite: 5.0 mg/L (normal 0 - 0.5)
> Nitrate: 20 mg/L (normal 20)
>
> Shouldn't the ammonia and nitrites be decreasing if the nitrate level is
> at it's norm? The fish seem ok but the water is cloudy.
>
> Forgive me, I'm new at this... Can anyone offer advice?
>
You seem to have a cycle going, so just stay the course. A complete
cycle in four weeks is rare - it usually takes 6 and sometimes 8.
Cloudy water is normal until ammonia and nitrite are zero. It's
bacteria and/or algae living on the ammonia and nitrite.

As for the nitrate, is there nitrate in your tap water? 20 ppm would be
high, but some folks have that much. If it's not from tap water it's a
good sign that bacteria are starting to work. Also, are you using
ammonia and/or nitrite neutralizers? People here have reported stalled
cycles from water conditioners like Prime and AmQuel+.

Watch your fish because your ammonia and nitrite readings are awfully
high. Fortunately, test kits are not terribly accurate - if your
readings were precise your fish would probably not be OK at all.
Ammonia neutralizers and some tap water conditioners like Ammo Lock or
AmQuel give false high readings on Nessler (clear changing to
yellow-orange) test kits. If the fish start gilling hard and getting
lethargic, they're suffering from nitrite poisoning. Change some water
and add 1 tbsp of salt to the water (something pure like pickling salt
or aquarium salt is best). A bit of salt helps counteract the poisoning.

HTH, and I bet you'll have a cycled tank in another two weeks.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Elaine T" > wrote in message
om...
> Chris wrote:
>> Greetings and hallucinations!
>>
>> I started a 29-gallon aquarium a month ago with a few zebra danios and
>> a couple of black tetras. I've been doing the water chemistry levels
>> religiously as it is going through the nitrogen cycle but the readings
>> I'm getting are alarming from what the chart says they should be.
>>
>> There was a handy chart included with the aquarium. Normal levels as
>> per the sheet are in brackets for the fourth week of the cycle (20%
>> water change complied with last week).
>>
>> Ammonia: 4.0 mg/L (normal 0)
>> Nitrite: 5.0 mg/L (normal 0 - 0.5)
>> Nitrate: 20 mg/L (normal 20)
>>
>> Shouldn't the ammonia and nitrites be decreasing if the nitrate level
>> is at it's norm? The fish seem ok but the water is cloudy. Forgive me,
>> I'm new at this... Can anyone offer advice?
>>
> You seem to have a cycle going, so just stay the course. A complete
> cycle in four weeks is rare - it usually takes 6 and sometimes 8.
> Cloudy water is normal until ammonia and nitrite are zero. It's
> bacteria and/or algae living on the ammonia and nitrite.
>
> As for the nitrate, is there nitrate in your tap water? 20 ppm would
> be high, but some folks have that much. If it's not from tap water
> it's a good sign that bacteria are starting to work. Also, are you
> using ammonia and/or nitrite neutralizers? People here have reported
> stalled cycles from water conditioners like Prime and AmQuel+.
>
> Watch your fish because your ammonia and nitrite readings are awfully
> high. Fortunately, test kits are not terribly accurate - if your
> readings were precise your fish would probably not be OK at all.
> Ammonia neutralizers and some tap water conditioners like Ammo Lock or
> AmQuel give false high readings on Nessler (clear changing to
> yellow-orange) test kits. If the fish start gilling hard and getting
> lethargic, they're suffering from nitrite poisoning. Change some water
> and add 1 tbsp of salt to the water (something pure like pickling salt
> or aquarium salt is best). A bit of salt helps counteract the
> poisoning.
>
> HTH, and I bet you'll have a cycled tank in another two weeks.
>
> --
> Elaine T __
> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><


I would be *much* more aggressive with the water changes until the tank
is cycled. The combination of numbers also suggests something else is
not right. Are you over-feeding or changing the filter media? Imagine
their stomach is the sign of their eye. In general, overfeeding will
cause more trouble than underfeeding, especially during cycling. During
cycling, leave your filter media alone as much as possible. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Jim Anderson]

In article >,
says...

> "Elaine T" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Chris wrote:
> >> Greetings and hallucinations!
> >>
> >> I started a 29-gallon aquarium a month ago with a few zebra danios and
> >> a couple of black tetras. I've been doing the water chemistry levels
> >> religiously as it is going through the nitrogen cycle but the readings
> >> I'm getting are alarming from what the chart says they should be.
> >>
> >> There was a handy chart included with the aquarium. Normal levels as
> >> per the sheet are in brackets for the fourth week of the cycle (20%
> >> water change complied with last week).
> >>
> >> Ammonia: 4.0 mg/L (normal 0)
> >> Nitrite: 5.0 mg/L (normal 0 - 0.5)
> >> Nitrate: 20 mg/L (normal 20)
> >>
> >> Shouldn't the ammonia and nitrites be decreasing if the nitrate level
> >> is at it's norm? The fish seem ok but the water is cloudy. Forgive me,
> >> I'm new at this... Can anyone offer advice?
> >>
> > You seem to have a cycle going, so just stay the course. A complete
> > cycle in four weeks is rare - it usually takes 6 and sometimes 8.
> > Cloudy water is normal until ammonia and nitrite are zero. It's
> > bacteria and/or algae living on the ammonia and nitrite.
> >
> > As for the nitrate, is there nitrate in your tap water? 20 ppm would
> > be high, but some folks have that much. If it's not from tap water
> > it's a good sign that bacteria are starting to work. Also, are you
> > using ammonia and/or nitrite neutralizers? People here have reported
> > stalled cycles from water conditioners like Prime and AmQuel+.
> >
> > Watch your fish because your ammonia and nitrite readings are awfully
> > high. Fortunately, test kits are not terribly accurate - if your
> > readings were precise your fish would probably not be OK at all.
> > Ammonia neutralizers and some tap water conditioners like Ammo Lock or
> > AmQuel give false high readings on Nessler (clear changing to
> > yellow-orange) test kits. If the fish start gilling hard and getting
> > lethargic, they're suffering from nitrite poisoning. Change some water
> > and add 1 tbsp of salt to the water (something pure like pickling salt
> > or aquarium salt is best). A bit of salt helps counteract the
> > poisoning.
> >
> > HTH, and I bet you'll have a cycled tank in another two weeks.
> >
> > --
> > Elaine T __
> > http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
>
>
> I would be *much* more aggressive with the water changes until the tank
> is cycled. The combination of numbers also suggests something else is
> not right. Are you over-feeding or changing the filter media? Imagine
> their stomach is the sign of their eye. In general, overfeeding will
> cause more trouble than underfeeding, especially during cycling. During
> cycling, leave your filter media alone as much as possible. hth
>

My money is on dirty gravel (poo and uneaten food), you should vacuum
the gravel at water changes. The bacteria can not multiply fast enough
to keep up with the growing poo factor.


--
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger

[Chris]

In article >, fro2750
@frontiernet.my_finger.net says...

> My money is on dirty gravel (poo and uneaten food), you should vacuum
> the gravel at water changes. The bacteria can not multiply fast enough
> to keep up with the growing poo factor.

That's a good bet. I've got a couple of bottom feeders in there and it
appears their food (and poo) is sinking into the gravel. I *did* notice
a lot of crud coming out during the water change, but I didn't get to
sift through it all because I hit my 20% before I could get it all
covered.

I ordered a battery-powered gravel vacuum yesterday online (since the
local Petsmart doesn't carry them). Thanks to one and all for the useful
advice.


--

Chris
http://www.choxnpinz.com

[Elaine T]

Chris wrote:
> In article >, fro2750
> @frontiernet.my_finger.net says...
>
>
>>My money is on dirty gravel (poo and uneaten food), you should vacuum
>>the gravel at water changes. The bacteria can not multiply fast enough
>>to keep up with the growing poo factor.
>
>
> That's a good bet. I've got a couple of bottom feeders in there and it
> appears their food (and poo) is sinking into the gravel. I *did* notice
> a lot of crud coming out during the water change, but I didn't get to
> sift through it all because I hit my 20% before I could get it all
> covered.
>
> I ordered a battery-powered gravel vacuum yesterday online (since the
> local Petsmart doesn't carry them). Thanks to one and all for the useful
> advice.
>
Waitaminute. You said "a few zebra danios and a couple of black
tetras." Those aren't bottom feeders so I see you added more fish. You
will need to be doing more and larger water changes. What is in your
tank now?

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Daniel Morrow]

The battery powered gravel vaccs work good except for one thing - the bags
the vacced crud goes into doesn't hold the gunk inside so usually you end up
with very cloudy water and little if any actual crud in the bag. Gravel vacs
that use a siphon are superior because they don't dirty the tank spreading
the crud all over the place like the battery powered ones, also the gravity
vaccs change water at the same time and are safe for fry. The power of the
battery powered ones are good - it's just that they tend to dirty a tank
more than just about any other method. Good luck, later!
"Chris" > wrote in message
ews.com...
> In article >, fro2750
> @frontiernet.my_finger.net says...
>
> > My money is on dirty gravel (poo and uneaten food), you should vacuum
> > the gravel at water changes. The bacteria can not multiply fast enough
> > to keep up with the growing poo factor.
>
> That's a good bet. I've got a couple of bottom feeders in there and it
> appears their food (and poo) is sinking into the gravel. I *did* notice
> a lot of crud coming out during the water change, but I didn't get to
> sift through it all because I hit my 20% before I could get it all
> covered.
>
> I ordered a battery-powered gravel vacuum yesterday online (since the
> local Petsmart doesn't carry them). Thanks to one and all for the useful
> advice.
>
>
> --
>
> Chris
> http://www.choxnpinz.com

[Chris]

In article >, eetmail-
says...
> Waitaminute. You said "a few zebra danios and a couple of black
> tetras." Those aren't bottom feeders so I see you added more fish. You
> will need to be doing more and larger water changes. What is in your
> tank now?

Sorry, my bad. I forgot to list two small Corys... Total fish in inches:
12. Total gallons: 29...

--

Chris
http://www.choxnpinz.com

[Chris]

In article >,
says...
> The battery powered gravel vaccs work good except for one thing - the bags
> the vacced crud goes into doesn't hold the gunk inside so usually you end up
> with very cloudy water and little if any actual crud in the bag. Gravel vacs
> that use a siphon are superior because they don't dirty the tank spreading
> the crud all over the place like the battery powered ones, also the gravity
> vaccs change water at the same time and are safe for fry. The power of the
> battery powered ones are good - it's just that they tend to dirty a tank
> more than just about any other method. Good luck, later!

I have a gravel vac that I use for water changes, but the water comes
out so fast I end up filling the 5-gallon bucket before de-crudding half
the tank. Is it safe to remove MORE than 20% of the water during a
change?

--

Chris
http://www.choxnpinz.com

[Elaine T]

Chris wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>The battery powered gravel vaccs work good except for one thing - the bags
>>the vacced crud goes into doesn't hold the gunk inside so usually you end up
>>with very cloudy water and little if any actual crud in the bag. Gravel vacs
>>that use a siphon are superior because they don't dirty the tank spreading
>>the crud all over the place like the battery powered ones, also the gravity
>>vaccs change water at the same time and are safe for fry. The power of the
>>battery powered ones are good - it's just that they tend to dirty a tank
>>more than just about any other method. Good luck, later!
>
>
> I have a gravel vac that I use for water changes, but the water comes
> out so fast I end up filling the 5-gallon bucket before de-crudding half
> the tank. Is it safe to remove MORE than 20% of the water during a
> change?
>
If your tapwater pH matches that of the tankwater, the hardness is
similar, and you have matched the temperatures, it's fine to do big 50%
water changes. The problem with a tank that contains ammonia is that
tapwater typically has a higher pH than tankwater so if you change too
much the pH of the tank changes and there is more ammonia in the toxic
form. Using an ammonia neutralizer AmQuel or Ammo Lock will solve this
problem.

You're cycling with too many fish anyway (I cycle with 1"/5-6 gal), so
20% weekly water changes are not enough. Change whatever water is
necessary to keep nitrites at or below 2 ppm, using an ammonia
neutralizer at each water change if the pH doesn't match.

Once your tank is established and your fish less stressed, you can do
water changes with water of somewhat different pH or hardness.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[NetMax]

"Chris" > wrote in message
ews.com...
> In article >, eetmail-
> says...
>> Waitaminute. You said "a few zebra danios and a couple of black
>> tetras." Those aren't bottom feeders so I see you added more fish.
>> You
>> will need to be doing more and larger water changes. What is in your
>> tank now?
>
> Sorry, my bad. I forgot to list two small Corys... Total fish in
> inches:
> 12. Total gallons: 29...
>
> --
>
> Chris
> http://www.choxnpinz.com


Holding out on us eh? Poor Corys didn't even count as fish :o( ;~)

To answer your other post, the amount of water which can safely be
changed is determined by how similar (or different) the change water is
compared to the tank water (more similar = bigger changes possible). If
you haven't changed the tank water in months, or you suspect/know the
chemistry has significantly changed (like during cycling), then you
should minimize the volume of the change. At the other extreme, if you
change most of your water very frequently and have a low fish load, then
you might not have any limitation to the volume being changed. It is
possible to have a routine of frequent 100% changes (though this is a
specialized application used to minimize DOC build up with grow-out
tanks). Typical change is in the order of 20%.
--
www.NetMax.tk

[Chris]

In article >, eetmail-
says...

> If your tapwater pH matches that of the tankwater, the hardness is
> similar, and you have matched the temperatures, it's fine to do big 50%
> water changes. The problem with a tank that contains ammonia is that
> tapwater typically has a higher pH than tankwater so if you change too
> much the pH of the tank changes and there is more ammonia in the toxic
> form. Using an ammonia neutralizer AmQuel or Ammo Lock will solve this
> problem.

Granted, I don't know much, but I knew enough to keep a 7-gallon
drinking-water jug in the same room, filled with tap water that has been
pH balanced to match the tank and conditioned. When I do a chance, I let
it sit outside for a couple of hours (in the sun) to warm it to the same
temp as the tank before doing the change.

--

Chris
http://www.choxnpinz.com

[Chris]

In article >,
says...

> Holding out on us eh? Poor Corys didn't even count as fish :o( ;~)

I humbly apologize. I posted a response to Elaine's reply which was
similar to your own. Thanks for the positive input!!

--

Chris
http://www.choxnpinz.com

[Elaine T]

Chris wrote:
> In article >, eetmail-
> says...
>
>
>>If your tapwater pH matches that of the tankwater, the hardness is
>>similar, and you have matched the temperatures, it's fine to do big 50%
>>water changes. The problem with a tank that contains ammonia is that
>>tapwater typically has a higher pH than tankwater so if you change too
>>much the pH of the tank changes and there is more ammonia in the toxic
>>form. Using an ammonia neutralizer AmQuel or Ammo Lock will solve this
>>problem.
>
>
> Granted, I don't know much, but I knew enough to keep a 7-gallon
> drinking-water jug in the same room, filled with tap water that has been
> pH balanced to match the tank and conditioned. When I do a chance, I let
> it sit outside for a couple of hours (in the sun) to warm it to the same
> temp as the tank before doing the change.
>
Cool - that works. :-) For another option, I use a Python water
changer to fill my tanks. I put the water conditioner directly in the
tank, adjust the tap water to the right temperature, and fill away. I
do frequent large water changes and my fish live at tapwater pH so I
don't often have to worry about pH differences. I also don't have to
try to lift 7 gallons of drinking water 5 feet high to fill my deepest tank!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__><
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

[Scott]

"Chris" > wrote in message
ews.com...
> In article >,
> says...
>> The battery powered gravel vaccs work good except for one thing - the
>> bags
>> the vacced crud goes into doesn't hold the gunk inside so usually you end
>> up
>> with very cloudy water and little if any actual crud in the bag. Gravel
>> vacs
>> that use a siphon are superior because they don't dirty the tank
>> spreading
>> the crud all over the place like the battery powered ones, also the
>> gravity
>> vaccs change water at the same time and are safe for fry. The power of
>> the
>> battery powered ones are good - it's just that they tend to dirty a tank
>> more than just about any other method. Good luck, later!
>
> I have a gravel vac that I use for water changes, but the water comes
> out so fast I end up filling the 5-gallon bucket before de-crudding half
> the tank. Is it safe to remove MORE than 20% of the water during a
> change?
>
> --
>
> Chris
> http://www.choxnpinz.com

I use a python gravel cleaner/filling setup - with that, you can limit the
outflow on the siphon so you can clean all you want. I use the faucet in my
sink to start the siphon and then move the hose to my tub so I don't have to
use running water to keep the siphon going. Then I limit the flow with the
valve on the python's hose. As long as your sink or tub is lower than your
fish tank, then you can keep the flow going in this manner. Now that the
weather is warmer, I can also run the hose out of the kitchen door onto my
flowers and water them. I got the python for about $30 USD, but I would
recommend springing for the extra 25 feet for the more expensive one, since
we all seem to have a problem with adding more tanks then we need. My 25
foot just BARELY reaches my furthest tank, and I only have four of them...
can't add more tanks without adding more to my python - I refuse to do
without it!!

btw, this does away with 5 gallon buckets... Which I get for free from
work.... now I need to figure out what to do with the stack of them that I
have... hmmm planters?? Unique light fixtures??

---scott

[Daniel Morrow]

"Chris" > wrote in message
ews.com...
> In article >,
> says...
> > The battery powered gravel vaccs work good except for one thing - the
bags
> > the vacced crud goes into doesn't hold the gunk inside so usually you
end up
> > with very cloudy water and little if any actual crud in the bag. Gravel
vacs
> > that use a siphon are superior because they don't dirty the tank
spreading
> > the crud all over the place like the battery powered ones, also the
gravity
> > vaccs change water at the same time and are safe for fry. The power of
the
> > battery powered ones are good - it's just that they tend to dirty a tank
> > more than just about any other method. Good luck, later!
>
> I have a gravel vac that I use for water changes, but the water comes
> out so fast I end up filling the 5-gallon bucket before de-crudding half

Try using a smaller gravel vac like a marineland mini siphon kleen for
approximately $04.00. It should make a big difference. Later!