Pond in planning stages

[Gill Passman]

Hi All,

After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research elsewhere
I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.

We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.

The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem is
that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond is
going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
end of where the pond is planned for.

Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and if
yes how deep?

Thanks
Gill

[Reel McKoi]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and
if
> yes how deep?
==================
If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater to keep
an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the fish will
not survive being frozen solid.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~Roy~]

DUH!


On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
> mumbled something to the effect of:


>===<>If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater to keep
>===<>an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the fish will
>===<>not survive being frozen solid.

Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
did not answer the question either.

YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.




==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Gill Passman]

"~Roy~" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> DUH!
>
>
> On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
> > mumbled something to the effect of:
>
>
> >===<>If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater
to keep
> >===<>an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the
fish will
> >===<>not survive being frozen solid.
>
> Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
> not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
> did not answer the question either.
>
> YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
> climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
> install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
> Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
> at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
> kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
> of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
> heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
> if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
> fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.
>
>
>
>
> ==============================================
> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
>
> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater is
a good option and one I have already thought of....

Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the rest of
the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a good
2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.

Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going into
the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and have
the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?

Thanks
Gill

[Reel McKoi]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
> tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater
is
> a good option and one I have already thought of....

## And that should work. Since my propagation pools outdoors are on the
surface I drop an inexpensive heater in each one. It floats through a block
of Styrofoam. The fish spend the winter under these dangling heaters. Even
the cheap aquarium ones work and last for years. :-)

> Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the rest
of
> the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a good
> 2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.
> Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going into
> the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and
have
> the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?

## That should work. You also need to keep a hole in the ice for air/gas
exchange. My heaters usually keep a small hole open - but then the pools
are only 150 gallons each. My bigger ponds (800 and 2000 gallons) don't
usually freeze over in winter. If they do it's only for a day or so. A
small cheap pump keeps an opening in the ice.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o>

[~Roy~]

Gill

What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

[Peter Breed]

~Roy~ wrote:
> Gill
>
> What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
> of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
> winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
> opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
> a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
> PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
> well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
> freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
> without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......
>
> ==============================================
> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
>
> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
I assume we are talking 2.5 to 3 feet below ground.

[Gill Passman]

"~Roy~" > wrote in message
...
> Gill
>
> What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
> of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
> winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
> opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
> a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
> PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
> well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
> freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
> without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......
>
> ==============================================
> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
>
> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

I'm in the South East of England...I have seen frost freeze at least 18
inches of stagnent water (in a wheelbarrow). Plus I had a pond here once
that was around 30inches and the ice didn't seem to kill the fish - the
location did
:-( ....under trees - a lesson hard learnt that has put me off for a good 5
years from trying again...this time I think we have the location right...

Running a heater is not a cheap option but when we already run 6 on the
tropicals I guess one more won't hurt.....I did the ball thing the first
year of my original pond and it seemed to work....

If I get coerced, (which seems quite likely) into the Koi, from what I've
read they would actually appreciate the extra depth....what do you think?

BTW if I gardened naked the colour I would go is blue - LOL

Gill

[Bill Stock]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
>
> After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
> elsewhere
> I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>
> We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
> the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
> will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
> because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
> hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
>
> The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
> wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem
> is
> that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
> is
> going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
> end of where the pond is planned for.
>
> Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and
> if
> yes how deep?
>
> Thanks
> Gill

I gather a soakaway is a sprinkler system?

You should be able to combine all of your ideas to make this work.

1) Dig down a bit where you can.
2) Insulate the above ground part. You could use the dirt from the hole.
3) Cover (insulate) the top in winter. Since you're building this into a
deck, it should be fairly simple.
4) Your heater only needs to keep the water around 39°F. This will keep your
electric bills down. I only needed
a 300W heater to keep my 500 gallon pond heated in the wilds of Canada.
:) The heater only ran an hour or so a
day.

[Gill Passman]

"Bill Stock" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> > Hi All,
> >
> > After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
> > elsewhere
> > I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
> >
> > We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered
and
> > the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The
structure
> > will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
> > because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in
here -
> > hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
> >
> > The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
> > wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The
problem
> > is
> > that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
> > is
> > going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the
other
> > end of where the pond is planned for.
> >
> > Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig
and
> > if
> > yes how deep?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
>
> I gather a soakaway is a sprinkler system?
>
> You should be able to combine all of your ideas to make this work.
>
> 1) Dig down a bit where you can.
> 2) Insulate the above ground part. You could use the dirt from the hole.
> 3) Cover (insulate) the top in winter. Since you're building this into a
> deck, it should be fairly simple.
> 4) Your heater only needs to keep the water around 39°F. This will keep
your
> electric bills down. I only needed
> a 300W heater to keep my 500 gallon pond heated in the wilds of
Canada.
> :) The heater only ran an hour or so a
> day.
>
>
>
The soakaway is a very, very solid bit of clay piping that takes the water
via downpipes from the roof away from the foundations of the house....it
then trickles through a lot of rubble into the soil....very common in
England.

The pond will be above the deck level but actually covering it in winter
shouldn't be too much of an issue.....

I guess if we are going for Koi (and I'm not totally convinced as I have 6
tanks in the house to maintain) the deeper the better....

But really what you are saying is that if we do a decent depth and consider
a heater digging should not be too much of an issue?

Gill

[George]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "~Roy~" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> DUH!
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
>> > mumbled something to the effect of:
>>
>>
>> >===<>If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater
> to keep
>> >===<>an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the
> fish will
>> >===<>not survive being frozen solid.
>>
>> Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
>> not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
>> did not answer the question either.
>>
>> YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
>> climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
>> install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
>> Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
>> at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
>> kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
>> of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
>> heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
>> if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
>> fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==============================================
>> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
>>
>> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
> tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater is
> a good option and one I have already thought of....
>
> Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the rest of
> the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a good
> 2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.
>
> Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going into
> the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and have
> the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>

You can contact your local university (a geology department) and find out how
deep the frostline is (the depth at which the soil will freeze over the winter)
in your area, then you should dig at least 5-6 inches to a foot below (deeper is
even better) to make sure that your pond will not freeze solid during a hard
winter. The frostline here is at 22 inches, so the deepest part of my pond
27"deep (but it is also 18 inches aboveground - surrounded and structural held
by 6 inch x 6 inch timbers, so the total depth is 45 inches). I also use an
aerator in the winter and keep my waterfall going as long as possible. When the
water gets around 40 F, I keep the aewrator going, turn off the waterfall, and I
use start to use a pond deicer, which works very well in keeping the worst of
the ice off the surface of the pond. If you decide on raising Koi (they get
large, but are a joy to raise), the aerator will be very important in the
winter, especially if you turn off any circulation you may have. Koi get much
larger than goldfish, and have a higher oxygen demand. Also, if you raise Koi,
you really should have a filtration system. It doesn't have to be expensive, it
just has to work, and preferably be easy to maintain. I hope this helps, and
feel free to come back and ask more questions (and do ignore the trolls). Good
luck.

[RichToyBox]

For the part of the pond that is above ground, it would be a good idea to
use a styrofoam or similar insulation board to help the pond retain as much
heat as possible. Do not insulate under the bottom, as heat will come up
through the soil to help keep the pond critters at about 4C, 40F. The
exposed sides will carry heat away quicker than a submerged pond, but
insulated, it should be doable.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
> Hi All,
>
> After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
> elsewhere
> I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>
> We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
> the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
> will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
> because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
> hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
>
> The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
> wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem
> is
> that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
> is
> going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
> end of where the pond is planned for.
>
> Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and
> if
> yes how deep?
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>

[George]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "~Roy~" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gill
>>
>> What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
>> of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
>> winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
>> opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
>> a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
>> PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
>> well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
>> freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
>> without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......
>>
>> ==============================================
>> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
>>
>> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
>
> I'm in the South East of England...I have seen frost freeze at least 18
> inches of stagnent water (in a wheelbarrow). Plus I had a pond here once
> that was around 30inches and the ice didn't seem to kill the fish - the
> location did
> :-( ....under trees - a lesson hard learnt that has put me off for a good 5
> years from trying again...this time I think we have the location right...
>
> Running a heater is not a cheap option but when we already run 6 on the
> tropicals I guess one more won't hurt.....I did the ball thing the first
> year of my original pond and it seemed to work....
>
> If I get coerced, (which seems quite likely) into the Koi, from what I've
> read they would actually appreciate the extra depth....what do you think?
>
> BTW if I gardened naked the colour I would go is blue - LOL
>
> Gill
>

Why should having your pond under your trees kill your fish? Are they
poisonous? Did they fall into the pond? Of course, you will get debris falling
off them, and leaves in the fall, but you can always pull it out. Regular
maintenance should take care of that problem. In fact, having to regularly
remove debris from the pond has actually made me a better ponder, since I pay
more attention to details. My pond is located partially under a neighbors'
large pin oak tree (it partially grows over the fenceline and shades the part of
my property where the pond is located). I have actually found it to be
beneficial for the pond since it provides shade for the entire morning, so that
the only time the pond is in direct sunlight (all day sun is will usually help
create a real algae monster) is in the afternoon. By evening, the sun is on the
other side of the house, so the pond goes back in shade. As for Koi, as I said
in another post, Koi are wonderful, but can be destructive of plants when they
get large. But they are a lot of fun to raise. I've raised several large
species (I also have a 10 lbs albino channel catfish in the pond), and I have
yet to find a large fish that I like raising better than the Koi (well, I am
partial to the one big cat - he does have quite a personality). But Koi truly
are remarkable fish.

Here is an small movie (in .mov format) of my pond from last year:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/catfish_eating.MOV

[Gill Passman]

"George" > wrote in message
news:MmQhe.80298$r53.16454@attbi_s21...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "~Roy~" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >>
> >> DUH!
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
> >> > mumbled something to the effect of:
> >>
> >>
> >> >===<>If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of
heater
> > to keep
> >> >===<>an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the
> > fish will
> >> >===<>not survive being frozen solid.
> >>
> >> Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
> >> not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
> >> did not answer the question either.
> >>
> >> YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
> >> climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
> >> install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
> >> Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
> >> at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
> >> kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
> >> of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
> >> heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
> >> if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
> >> fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==============================================
> >> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
> >>
> >> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> > Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
> > tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater
is
> > a good option and one I have already thought of....
> >
> > Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the
rest of
> > the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a
good
> > 2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.
> >
> > Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going
into
> > the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and
have
> > the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
> >
>
> You can contact your local university (a geology department) and find out
how
> deep the frostline is (the depth at which the soil will freeze over the
winter)
> in your area, then you should dig at least 5-6 inches to a foot below
(deeper is
> even better) to make sure that your pond will not freeze solid during a
hard
> winter. The frostline here is at 22 inches, so the deepest part of my
pond
> 27"deep (but it is also 18 inches aboveground - surrounded and structural
held
> by 6 inch x 6 inch timbers, so the total depth is 45 inches). I also use
an
> aerator in the winter and keep my waterfall going as long as possible.
When the
> water gets around 40 F, I keep the aewrator going, turn off the waterfall,
and I
> use start to use a pond deicer, which works very well in keeping the worst
of
> the ice off the surface of the pond. If you decide on raising Koi (they
get
> large, but are a joy to raise), the aerator will be very important in the
> winter, especially if you turn off any circulation you may have. Koi get
much
> larger than goldfish, and have a higher oxygen demand. Also, if you raise
Koi,
> you really should have a filtration system. It doesn't have to be
expensive, it
> just has to work, and preferably be easy to maintain. I hope this helps,
and
> feel free to come back and ask more questions (and do ignore the trolls).
Good
> luck.
>
>

Thanks George,
I will speak to the local Uni - my Mother works there...and btw it was this
ng that taught me about killfiles - lol - have been monitoring for 3 months
plus - learnt more than I ever wanted to about things I never wanted to
think about....IMO the more "pond related" questions we all ask the better
even if from beginners....lets flood it with fish questions.....but that is
another topic....

I'm looking into filtration systems....at the moment I quite fancy the idea
of including the filtration in an upper level which will eventually become a
waterfall type of thing into the main pond....this will almost certainly
need to be custom I think....on the majority of my large tropical tanks I
have external filters with a variety of media which work very well and
certainly external filtration is an option...but my thought is maybe I feed
through this on the upper level, filter it there and then cascade the water
down is an alternative.....now obviously the cascade will be central so on
the other side I'm looking at heavily planting

Gill

[Gill Passman]

"George" > wrote in message
news:gAQhe.80318$r53.12639@attbi_s21...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "~Roy~" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Gill
> >>
> >> What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
> >> of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
> >> winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
> >> opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
> >> a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
> >> PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
> >> well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
> >> freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
> >> without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......
> >>
> >> ==============================================
> >> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
> >>
> >> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
> >
> > I'm in the South East of England...I have seen frost freeze at least 18
> > inches of stagnent water (in a wheelbarrow). Plus I had a pond here once
> > that was around 30inches and the ice didn't seem to kill the fish - the
> > location did
> > :-( ....under trees - a lesson hard learnt that has put me off for a
good 5
> > years from trying again...this time I think we have the location
right...
> >
> > Running a heater is not a cheap option but when we already run 6 on the
> > tropicals I guess one more won't hurt.....I did the ball thing the first
> > year of my original pond and it seemed to work....
> >
> > If I get coerced, (which seems quite likely) into the Koi, from what
I've
> > read they would actually appreciate the extra depth....what do you
think?
> >
> > BTW if I gardened naked the colour I would go is blue - LOL
> >
> > Gill
> >
>
> Why should having your pond under your trees kill your fish? Are they
> poisonous? Did they fall into the pond? Of course, you will get debris
falling
> off them, and leaves in the fall, but you can always pull it out. Regular
> maintenance should take care of that problem. In fact, having to
regularly
> remove debris from the pond has actually made me a better ponder, since I
pay
> more attention to details. My pond is located partially under a
neighbors'
> large pin oak tree (it partially grows over the fenceline and shades the
part of
> my property where the pond is located). I have actually found it to be
> beneficial for the pond since it provides shade for the entire morning, so
that
> the only time the pond is in direct sunlight (all day sun is will usually
help
> create a real algae monster) is in the afternoon. By evening, the sun is
on the
> other side of the house, so the pond goes back in shade. As for Koi, as I
said
> in another post, Koi are wonderful, but can be destructive of plants when
they
> get large. But they are a lot of fun to raise. I've raised several large
> species (I also have a 10 lbs albino channel catfish in the pond), and I
have
> yet to find a large fish that I like raising better than the Koi (well, I
am
> partial to the one big cat - he does have quite a personality). But Koi
truly
> are remarkable fish.
>
> Here is an small movie (in .mov format) of my pond from last year:
>
> http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/catfish_eating.MOV
>
>
>
The trees in question are sycamores....I spend almost a daily battle
identifying them and pulling them out of my garden right now....even over
150 feet from the source....When we had the pond up there I struggled
pulling out the dead leaves 2-4 times a week from the pond til it became to
dark for me to do this after work......never, ever again will I put a pond
up there.

I know, now, that I could have done a lot more....but if there are easier
places in the garden to site a pond I'm all for it.....BTW that lawn needs
to go in a few years...we all hate mowing....great place for a natural pond
......lol

[Bill Stock]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
>> > elsewhere
>> > I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>> >
>> > We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered
> and
>> > the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The
> structure
>> > will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in
>> > short-term
>> > because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in
> here -
>> > hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
>> >
>> > The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I
>> > was
>> > wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The
> problem
>> > is
>> > that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the
>> > pond
>> > is
>> > going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the
> other
>> > end of where the pond is planned for.
>> >
>> > Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig
> and
>> > if
>> > yes how deep?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Gill
>>
>> I gather a soakaway is a sprinkler system?
>>
>> You should be able to combine all of your ideas to make this work.
>>
>> 1) Dig down a bit where you can.
>> 2) Insulate the above ground part. You could use the dirt from the hole.
>> 3) Cover (insulate) the top in winter. Since you're building this into a
>> deck, it should be fairly simple.
>> 4) Your heater only needs to keep the water around 39°F. This will keep
> your
>> electric bills down. I only needed
>> a 300W heater to keep my 500 gallon pond heated in the wilds of
> Canada.
>> :) The heater only ran an hour or so a
>> day.
>>
>>
>>
> The soakaway is a very, very solid bit of clay piping that takes the water
> via downpipes from the roof away from the foundations of the house....it
> then trickles through a lot of rubble into the soil....very common in
> England.
>
> The pond will be above the deck level but actually covering it in winter
> shouldn't be too much of an issue.....

OK, I was thinking it would be flush with the deck. You should still
insulate the above ground portion. See RichToyBox's reply.

> I guess if we are going for Koi (and I'm not totally convinced as I have 6
> tanks in the house to maintain) the deeper the better....

I believe Koi need 1000 gallons + 100 gallons per fish. My puddle is much
too small for Koi.

> But really what you are saying is that if we do a decent depth and
> consider
> a heater digging should not be too much of an issue?

Not quite. I would dig as much as possible, because if you dig deep enough
you won't need a heater. If you do need a heater, the more pond below
ground, the smaller heater you will require.

> Gill
>
>
>

[George]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:MmQhe.80298$r53.16454@attbi_s21...
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >
>> > "~Roy~" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> DUH!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
>> >> > mumbled something to the effect of:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >===<>If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of
> heater
>> > to keep
>> >> >===<>an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the
>> > fish will
>> >> >===<>not survive being frozen solid.
>> >>
>> >> Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
>> >> not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
>> >> did not answer the question either.
>> >>
>> >> YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
>> >> climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
>> >> install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
>> >> Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
>> >> at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
>> >> kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
>> >> of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
>> >> heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
>> >> if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
>> >> fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ==============================================
>> >> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
>> >>
>> >> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
>> >
>> > Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
>> > tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater
> is
>> > a good option and one I have already thought of....
>> >
>> > Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the
> rest of
>> > the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a
> good
>> > 2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.
>> >
>> > Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going
> into
>> > the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and
> have
>> > the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Gill
>> >
>>
>> You can contact your local university (a geology department) and find out
> how
>> deep the frostline is (the depth at which the soil will freeze over the
> winter)
>> in your area, then you should dig at least 5-6 inches to a foot below
> (deeper is
>> even better) to make sure that your pond will not freeze solid during a
> hard
>> winter. The frostline here is at 22 inches, so the deepest part of my
> pond
>> 27"deep (but it is also 18 inches aboveground - surrounded and structural
> held
>> by 6 inch x 6 inch timbers, so the total depth is 45 inches). I also use
> an
>> aerator in the winter and keep my waterfall going as long as possible.
> When the
>> water gets around 40 F, I keep the aewrator going, turn off the waterfall,
> and I
>> use start to use a pond deicer, which works very well in keeping the worst
> of
>> the ice off the surface of the pond. If you decide on raising Koi (they
> get
>> large, but are a joy to raise), the aerator will be very important in the
>> winter, especially if you turn off any circulation you may have. Koi get
> much
>> larger than goldfish, and have a higher oxygen demand. Also, if you raise
> Koi,
>> you really should have a filtration system. It doesn't have to be
> expensive, it
>> just has to work, and preferably be easy to maintain. I hope this helps,
> and
>> feel free to come back and ask more questions (and do ignore the trolls).
> Good
>> luck.
>>
>>
>
> Thanks George,
> I will speak to the local Uni - my Mother works there...and btw it was this
> ng that taught me about killfiles - lol - have been monitoring for 3 months
> plus - learnt more than I ever wanted to about things I never wanted to
> think about....IMO the more "pond related" questions we all ask the better
> even if from beginners....lets flood it with fish questions.....but that is
> another topic....
>
> I'm looking into filtration systems....at the moment I quite fancy the idea
> of including the filtration in an upper level which will eventually become a
> waterfall type of thing into the main pond....this will almost certainly
> need to be custom I think....on the majority of my large tropical tanks I
> have external filters with a variety of media which work very well and
> certainly external filtration is an option...but my thought is maybe I feed
> through this on the upper level, filter it there and then cascade the water
> down is an alternative.....now obviously the cascade will be central so on
> the other side I'm looking at heavily planting
>
> Gill
>

If your filter is above the main pond, and you are pumping water from the main
pond to the filter (positive pressure) and letting it cascade back into the main
pond, please remember to build some kind of spillway to prevent overflow in case
the filter gets clogged. I can't stress this enough. And then there is the
problem of preventing the pump from getting glogged. I worked around this
problem (and since I had a limited area to begin with, I really didn't have a
choice). What I did was to build the filter into the main pond at one end (below
water level). Then I surrounded it with rocks, and built them up to a level
above the filter (in fact, out of the water altogether) to create a waterfall.
In other words, my waterfall comes out of the pond at one end. The filter is
submerged beneath it. Oh, but how do you clean it, you may ask? The answer is
that I don't. At least, only rarely, and then, only by backflushing with a
garden hose, which takes about 2 minutes. The filter is a biological filter,
and it has a pre-filter which sits at the bottom of the pond. The pre-filter
catches most of the suspended solids in the water, so it is mostly a mechanical
filter, although it does do some biological filtration as well. I clean it out
about every 2-4 weeks. It takes about five minutes to clean. I have a marine
aquarium, and frankly I'd rather clean the pond than clean it. That leaves
primarily cleaned water (but still disolved nutrient-laden) that goes into the
main filter, which is an old jacuzzi filter that I converted for this purpose.
It is half full of coarse gravel (about 50 lbs). The water enters from a hose
connected from the pre-filter to the main filter at the bottom. Then the water
flows through a basket strainer, and then the gravel (which is where the
beneficial microbes live) and up to the pump above the gravel. The water then
exits the filter at the top and flows into a three gallon decorative clay pot
full of porous lava rock, which has holes about halfway up. The water flows
through the lava rock and over it, and out of the holes, then over the waterfall
and back into the pond (this is a new addition that isn't shown on the web link,
below).

You can adapt this method (called the suction method, as opposed to postive
pressure, which you would have if you simply place the pump in the bottom of the
pond and pumped the water into a filter above the level of the pond) by simply
using a different container. I've used a 20-gallon plastic sealable new (never
used) chemical drum on my sister's pond with great results. In her case, the
pond was concrete and was already built, so I dug a hole next to the pond,
behind the waterfall, and placed the filter below ground there, with only the
cover showing (which was hidden with potted plants). The top of the lid had a
valve that could be used to backflush the filter by connecting a water hose to
it. I then dug a trench from the pond to the filter. I drilled a hole into the
concrete about a 15 inches below the water line (after lowering the water level,
of course), and installed a sealable bulkhead fitting through the hole. I
sealed the hole with hydraulic cement, and placed bentonite around the outside
of the hole to prevent leaks. Then I ran piping from the bulkhead to the
filter, and connected a flexible hose to the bulkhead on the inside (the hose
had a basket strainer on its other end), and ran it to a milkcrate which sat on
the bottom, on which the strainer sat. This way, the water in the piping/hose
always stays below the surface water level and the system never loses its prime.
It only cost about $30 to make (not including the pump). This setup didn't have
a pre-filter, and my sister ended up backflushing a lot more often than I ever
do, which is rarely.

Another alternative would be to create a veggie pond above your main pond and
let the water from that cascade down in a waterfall to the main pond. Veggies
seem to have less problems with clogging, but I really don't have a lot of
experience with them. My plants are in the pond itself. Others here in this
forum are more experienced with veggie filters, so if you are interested, you
could ask about them, and someone will likely tell you more about them than I
can. I understand that they work very well, and are quite attractive.

There are lots of possibilities. My experience is that if you pre-filter the
water before you send it to your main filter (whatever that may be), you will
have better results, and make cleaning a lot easier, since all you have to do is
fish the pre-filter out of the bottom with a coathanger and rinse it out, using
the sludge for fertilizer for your lawn plants. They will thank you for the
effort. Oh, and whatever you do, it is always best not to set the pre-filter
inlet right on the bottom. You don't want it getting clogged with leaves or
sludge from the bottom. Always place the inlet a few inches off the bottom. My
pre-filter has the inlet on its top (about a foot off the bottom).

Here are some details on the filtration system I use:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/filter.htm

Good luck.

[George]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Bill Stock" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
>> > elsewhere
>> > I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>> >
>> > We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered
> and
>> > the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The
> structure
>> > will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
>> > because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in
> here -
>> > hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
>> >
>> > The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
>> > wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The
> problem
>> > is
>> > that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
>> > is
>> > going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the
> other
>> > end of where the pond is planned for.
>> >
>> > Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig
> and
>> > if
>> > yes how deep?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Gill
>>
>> I gather a soakaway is a sprinkler system?
>>
>> You should be able to combine all of your ideas to make this work.
>>
>> 1) Dig down a bit where you can.
>> 2) Insulate the above ground part. You could use the dirt from the hole.
>> 3) Cover (insulate) the top in winter. Since you're building this into a
>> deck, it should be fairly simple.
>> 4) Your heater only needs to keep the water around 39°F. This will keep
> your
>> electric bills down. I only needed
>> a 300W heater to keep my 500 gallon pond heated in the wilds of
> Canada.
>> :) The heater only ran an hour or so a
>> day.
>>
>>
>>
> The soakaway is a very, very solid bit of clay piping that takes the water
> via downpipes from the roof away from the foundations of the house....it
> then trickles through a lot of rubble into the soil....very common in
> England.

So it is a kind of French drain (and English drain?). Ok, that makes sense.

> The pond will be above the deck level but actually covering it in winter
> shouldn't be too much of an issue.....
>
> I guess if we are going for Koi (and I'm not totally convinced as I have 6
> tanks in the house to maintain) the deeper the better....
>
> But really what you are saying is that if we do a decent depth and consider
> a heater digging should not be too much of an issue?
>
> Gill

Exactly so.

[George]

"RichToyBox" > wrote in message
...
> For the part of the pond that is above ground, it would be a good idea to use
> a styrofoam or similar insulation board to help the pond retain as much heat
> as possible. Do not insulate under the bottom, as heat will come up through
> the soil to help keep the pond critters at about 4C, 40F. The exposed sides
> will carry heat away quicker than a submerged pond, but insulated, it should
> be doable.
> --
> RichToyBox
> http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

I agree. I didn't insulate mine, but the walls aboveground are 6" x 6" tightly
fitting timbers, which provide some insulation. The pond is also sheltered from
the wind by a 6 feet tall wooden fence for its entire length. Nonetheless,
where I live can ocasionally have nasty winters, and I know that without the
de-icer I might have trouble some day. Thanks Rich. Now I've got a retro to do
some day!

[George]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "George" > wrote in message
> news:gAQhe.80318$r53.12639@attbi_s21...
>>
>> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
>> .. .
>> >
>> > "~Roy~" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> Gill
>> >>
>> >> What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
>> >> of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
>> >> winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
>> >> opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
>> >> a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
>> >> PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
>> >> well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
>> >> freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
>> >> without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......
>> >>
>> >> ==============================================
>> >> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
>> >>
>> >> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
>> >
>> > I'm in the South East of England...I have seen frost freeze at least 18
>> > inches of stagnent water (in a wheelbarrow). Plus I had a pond here once
>> > that was around 30inches and the ice didn't seem to kill the fish - the
>> > location did
>> > :-( ....under trees - a lesson hard learnt that has put me off for a
> good 5
>> > years from trying again...this time I think we have the location
> right...
>> >
>> > Running a heater is not a cheap option but when we already run 6 on the
>> > tropicals I guess one more won't hurt.....I did the ball thing the first
>> > year of my original pond and it seemed to work....
>> >
>> > If I get coerced, (which seems quite likely) into the Koi, from what
> I've
>> > read they would actually appreciate the extra depth....what do you
> think?
>> >
>> > BTW if I gardened naked the colour I would go is blue - LOL
>> >
>> > Gill
>> >
>>
>> Why should having your pond under your trees kill your fish? Are they
>> poisonous? Did they fall into the pond? Of course, you will get debris
> falling
>> off them, and leaves in the fall, but you can always pull it out. Regular
>> maintenance should take care of that problem. In fact, having to
> regularly
>> remove debris from the pond has actually made me a better ponder, since I
> pay
>> more attention to details. My pond is located partially under a
> neighbors'
>> large pin oak tree (it partially grows over the fenceline and shades the
> part of
>> my property where the pond is located). I have actually found it to be
>> beneficial for the pond since it provides shade for the entire morning, so
> that
>> the only time the pond is in direct sunlight (all day sun is will usually
> help
>> create a real algae monster) is in the afternoon. By evening, the sun is
> on the
>> other side of the house, so the pond goes back in shade. As for Koi, as I
> said
>> in another post, Koi are wonderful, but can be destructive of plants when
> they
>> get large. But they are a lot of fun to raise. I've raised several large
>> species (I also have a 10 lbs albino channel catfish in the pond), and I
> have
>> yet to find a large fish that I like raising better than the Koi (well, I
> am
>> partial to the one big cat - he does have quite a personality). But Koi
> truly
>> are remarkable fish.
>>
>> Here is an small movie (in .mov format) of my pond from last year:
>>
>> http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/catfish_eating.MOV
>>
>>
>>
> The trees in question are sycamores....I spend almost a daily battle
> identifying them and pulling them out of my garden right now....even over
> 150 feet from the source....When we had the pond up there I struggled
> pulling out the dead leaves 2-4 times a week from the pond til it became to
> dark for me to do this after work......never, ever again will I put a pond
> up there.

That makes sense. I don't like sycamores either. They look good in the woods,
but in the yard? Forget it.

> I know, now, that I could have done a lot more....but if there are easier
> places in the garden to site a pond I'm all for it.....BTW that lawn needs
> to go in a few years...we all hate mowing....great place for a natural pond
> .....lol
>

I hear you. I have a half an acre, and I've been slowly adding plantings every
year to fill it up. I hate to mow as well. In fact...

[Koitoy]

Gill Passman Wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
> elsewhere
> I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>
> We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered
> and
> the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The
> structure
> will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in
> short-term
> because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here
> -
> hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
>
> The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I
> was
> wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The
> problem is
> that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the
> pond is
> going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the
> other
> end of where the pond is planned for.
>
> Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig
> and if
> yes how deep?
>
> Thanks
> Gill


To determine if you should have an above ground, below ground or a
below ground pond with raised ledges depends on your climate and your
preferences. A below ground pond is well insulated by the soil, versus
an above ground which is not. Are you going to keep fish? If so and
you will have freezing weather then you will have to take them inside
to overwinter them.

A raised pond is easier to build and not all that dirt to move. But a
below ground pond that is at least 3 feet will tolerate freezing
weather, and will be cooler in hot weaher. You can easily overwinter
fish and many plants in a dug pond that is 3 feet.

Digging a pond is hard work and very dirty. But the results are worth
it. I would not like to take my fish inside for the winter- I have a
Koi who is 30 inches and a couple others over 24". They overwinter in
zone 6a with only a small pump going.

Good luck and happy ponding. I suggest you go above ground and shallow
and build deeper an bigger when your child is older. Also situate your
pond in an area with good drainage. Water under the liner, under the
ledges will undermine your pond walls.


--
Koitoy

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Mon, 16 May 2005 "Gill Passman" wrote:

>I'm looking into filtration systems.... <snip>
>Gill

Hi Gill,

Do take a look at mine. :-) Click on *My Filter*. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Ted Riedel]

I'm not an expert at this, but in my case building my pond took three
years. Year one after moving into the "New House" my wife and I built a
retaining wall out of limestone rock and concrete and let that sit a year.
Year two saw us backfilling the wall, along with trying to compact the
soil. After which we let it sit for a winter before we dug the pond out
in year three.

The whole project is still in the works (you can view it at
wwww.shadowsfall.org )but has been going for a couple of years now. We
live in the Sierra Foothills at 2100' about 60 miles north of Yosemite and
the Koi over winter very well. Someday when I don't have to build a pond
on a budget I'll rip it out and do it over but as it is, it provides water
for the dog, cats, birds, frogs (I hear them right now) and dragonflys, a
place for the kids (4, 7 and 9) to catch polywogs (I make them practace
"Catch and Release with them), and the sound of falling water.

Ted

Molon Labe


On Sun, 15 May 2005 19:26:28 +0100, Gill Passman wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research elsewhere
> I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>
> We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
> the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
> will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
> because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
> hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
>
> The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
> wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem is
> that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond is
> going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
> end of where the pond is planned for.
>
> Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and if
> yes how deep?
>
> Thanks
> Gill

[Greg Cooper]

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research elsewhere
> I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>
Not exactly sure from you description what you have in mind.
Be careful if you are putting treated decking close to your pond. The
runoff from the decking can be very poisonous to fish.

[Greg Cooper]

George wrote:


> Another alternative would be to create a veggie pond above your main pond and
> let the water from that cascade down in a waterfall to the main pond. Veggies
> seem to have less problems with clogging, but I really don't have a lot of
> experience with them. My plants are in the pond itself. Others here in this
> forum are more experienced with veggie filters, so if you are interested, you
> could ask about them, and someone will likely tell you more about them than I
> can. I understand that they work very well, and are quite attractive.
>

On the subject of veggie filter plants I am really happy with using
WaterCest (I expect it would do well in an english climate). It grows
well in the top of my filter growing roots down around the river stones
as the water wells up then spills off to the side to form the water
fall. I originally used water hyacines but the Crest tolerates the
shade conditions of my pond much better (added bonus you can eat it!).
My "starter plants" was simply a small bunch of WaterCrest from the
local grocer. It is happy to root in flowing water and comes back year
after year tolerating the mild freezing we get in our winters in BC.

[Gill Passman]

"Greg Cooper" > wrote in message
news:DrZhe.118882$3V3.9528@edtnps89...
> George wrote:
>
>
> > Another alternative would be to create a veggie pond above your main
pond and
> > let the water from that cascade down in a waterfall to the main pond.
Veggies
> > seem to have less problems with clogging, but I really don't have a lot
of
> > experience with them. My plants are in the pond itself. Others here in
this
> > forum are more experienced with veggie filters, so if you are
interested, you
> > could ask about them, and someone will likely tell you more about them
than I
> > can. I understand that they work very well, and are quite attractive.
> >
>
> On the subject of veggie filter plants I am really happy with using
> WaterCest (I expect it would do well in an english climate). It grows
> well in the top of my filter growing roots down around the river stones
> as the water wells up then spills off to the side to form the water
> fall. I originally used water hyacines but the Crest tolerates the
> shade conditions of my pond much better (added bonus you can eat it!).
> My "starter plants" was simply a small bunch of WaterCrest from the
> local grocer. It is happy to root in flowing water and comes back year
> after year tolerating the mild freezing we get in our winters in BC.

Like the sound of the Watercress....I'll be doing some research on Veggie
filters I think.

Thanks

[Gill Passman]

"Greg Cooper" > wrote in message
news:78Zhe.64445$HR1.17483@clgrps12...
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
elsewhere
> > I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
> >
> Not exactly sure from you description what you have in mind.
> Be careful if you are putting treated decking close to your pond. The
> runoff from the decking can be very poisonous to fish.

It was more the outer cladding that was going to be decking material so that
it fits in with the character of that part of the garden - another option
would be railway sleepers but these seep resin as well. The pond itself
would be raised above the level of the decking so there would be no run off
from the deck itself.

Not quite sure what to "top it off" with as most timber would be treated in
some way or another.....having a think on that one.

[Gill Passman]

"George" > wrote in message
news:QBRhe.81541$NU4.58521@attbi_s22...
>
> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "George" > wrote in message
> > news:MmQhe.80298$r53.16454@attbi_s21...
> >>
> >> "Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> .. .
> >> >
> >> > "~Roy~" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> DUH!
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
> >> >> > mumbled something to the effect of:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >===<>If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of
> > heater
> >> > to keep
> >> >> >===<>an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know
the
> >> > fish will
> >> >> >===<>not survive being frozen solid.
> >> >>
> >> >> Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish
would
> >> >> not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
> >> >> did not answer the question either.
> >> >>
> >> >> YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the
colder
> >> >> climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
> >> >> install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower
depths.
> >> >> Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your
safe
> >> >> at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks
have
> >> >> kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the
use
> >> >> of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit
of
> >> >> heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could,
and
> >> >> if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
> >> >> fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ==============================================
> >> >> Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
> >> >>
> >> >> ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>
> >> >
> >> > Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run
with
> >> > tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a
heater
> > is
> >> > a good option and one I have already thought of....
> >> >
> >> > Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the
> > rest of
> >> > the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a
> > good
> >> > 2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.
> >> >
> >> > Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going
> > into
> >> > the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish -
and
> > have
> >> > the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > Gill
> >> >
> >>
> >> You can contact your local university (a geology department) and find
out
> > how
> >> deep the frostline is (the depth at which the soil will freeze over the
> > winter)
> >> in your area, then you should dig at least 5-6 inches to a foot below
> > (deeper is
> >> even better) to make sure that your pond will not freeze solid during a
> > hard
> >> winter. The frostline here is at 22 inches, so the deepest part of my
> > pond
> >> 27"deep (but it is also 18 inches aboveground - surrounded and
structural
> > held
> >> by 6 inch x 6 inch timbers, so the total depth is 45 inches). I also
use
> > an
> >> aerator in the winter and keep my waterfall going as long as possible.
> > When the
> >> water gets around 40 F, I keep the aewrator going, turn off the
waterfall,
> > and I
> >> use start to use a pond deicer, which works very well in keeping the
worst
> > of
> >> the ice off the surface of the pond. If you decide on raising Koi
(they
> > get
> >> large, but are a joy to raise), the aerator will be very important in
the
> >> winter, especially if you turn off any circulation you may have. Koi
get
> > much
> >> larger than goldfish, and have a higher oxygen demand. Also, if you
raise
> > Koi,
> >> you really should have a filtration system. It doesn't have to be
> > expensive, it
> >> just has to work, and preferably be easy to maintain. I hope this
helps,
> > and
> >> feel free to come back and ask more questions (and do ignore the
trolls).
> > Good
> >> luck.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks George,
> > I will speak to the local Uni - my Mother works there...and btw it was
this
> > ng that taught me about killfiles - lol - have been monitoring for 3
months
> > plus - learnt more than I ever wanted to about things I never wanted to
> > think about....IMO the more "pond related" questions we all ask the
better
> > even if from beginners....lets flood it with fish questions.....but that
is
> > another topic....
> >
> > I'm looking into filtration systems....at the moment I quite fancy the
idea
> > of including the filtration in an upper level which will eventually
become a
> > waterfall type of thing into the main pond....this will almost certainly
> > need to be custom I think....on the majority of my large tropical tanks
I
> > have external filters with a variety of media which work very well and
> > certainly external filtration is an option...but my thought is maybe I
feed
> > through this on the upper level, filter it there and then cascade the
water
> > down is an alternative.....now obviously the cascade will be central so
on
> > the other side I'm looking at heavily planting
> >
> > Gill
> >
>
> If your filter is above the main pond, and you are pumping water from the
main
> pond to the filter (positive pressure) and letting it cascade back into
the main
> pond, please remember to build some kind of spillway to prevent overflow
in case
> the filter gets clogged. I can't stress this enough. And then there is
the
> problem of preventing the pump from getting glogged. I worked around this
> problem (and since I had a limited area to begin with, I really didn't
have a
> choice). What I did was to build the filter into the main pond at one end
(below
> water level). Then I surrounded it with rocks, and built them up to a
level
> above the filter (in fact, out of the water altogether) to create a
waterfall.
> In other words, my waterfall comes out of the pond at one end. The filter
is
> submerged beneath it. Oh, but how do you clean it, you may ask? The
answer is
> that I don't. At least, only rarely, and then, only by backflushing with
a
> garden hose, which takes about 2 minutes. The filter is a biological
filter,
> and it has a pre-filter which sits at the bottom of the pond. The
pre-filter
> catches most of the suspended solids in the water, so it is mostly a
mechanical
> filter, although it does do some biological filtration as well. I clean
it out
> about every 2-4 weeks. It takes about five minutes to clean. I have a
marine
> aquarium, and frankly I'd rather clean the pond than clean it. That
leaves
> primarily cleaned water (but still disolved nutrient-laden) that goes into
the
> main filter, which is an old jacuzzi filter that I converted for this
purpose.
> It is half full of coarse gravel (about 50 lbs). The water enters from a
hose
> connected from the pre-filter to the main filter at the bottom. Then the
water
> flows through a basket strainer, and then the gravel (which is where the
> beneficial microbes live) and up to the pump above the gravel. The water
then
> exits the filter at the top and flows into a three gallon decorative clay
pot
> full of porous lava rock, which has holes about halfway up. The water
flows
> through the lava rock and over it, and out of the holes, then over the
waterfall
> and back into the pond (this is a new addition that isn't shown on the web
link,
> below).
>
> You can adapt this method (called the suction method, as opposed to
postive
> pressure, which you would have if you simply place the pump in the bottom
of the
> pond and pumped the water into a filter above the level of the pond) by
simply
> using a different container. I've used a 20-gallon plastic sealable new
(never
> used) chemical drum on my sister's pond with great results. In her case,
the
> pond was concrete and was already built, so I dug a hole next to the pond,
> behind the waterfall, and placed the filter below ground there, with only
the
> cover showing (which was hidden with potted plants). The top of the lid
had a
> valve that could be used to backflush the filter by connecting a water
hose to
> it. I then dug a trench from the pond to the filter. I drilled a hole
into the
> concrete about a 15 inches below the water line (after lowering the water
level,
> of course), and installed a sealable bulkhead fitting through the hole. I
> sealed the hole with hydraulic cement, and placed bentonite around the
outside
> of the hole to prevent leaks. Then I ran piping from the bulkhead to the
> filter, and connected a flexible hose to the bulkhead on the inside (the
hose
> had a basket strainer on its other end), and ran it to a milkcrate which
sat on
> the bottom, on which the strainer sat. This way, the water in the
piping/hose
> always stays below the surface water level and the system never loses its
prime.
> It only cost about $30 to make (not including the pump). This setup
didn't have
> a pre-filter, and my sister ended up backflushing a lot more often than I
ever
> do, which is rarely.
>
> Another alternative would be to create a veggie pond above your main pond
and
> let the water from that cascade down in a waterfall to the main pond.
Veggies
> seem to have less problems with clogging, but I really don't have a lot of
> experience with them. My plants are in the pond itself. Others here in
this
> forum are more experienced with veggie filters, so if you are interested,
you
> could ask about them, and someone will likely tell you more about them
than I
> can. I understand that they work very well, and are quite attractive.
>
> There are lots of possibilities. My experience is that if you pre-filter
the
> water before you send it to your main filter (whatever that may be), you
will
> have better results, and make cleaning a lot easier, since all you have to
do is
> fish the pre-filter out of the bottom with a coathanger and rinse it out,
using
> the sludge for fertilizer for your lawn plants. They will thank you for
the
> effort. Oh, and whatever you do, it is always best not to set the
pre-filter
> inlet right on the bottom. You don't want it getting clogged with leaves
or
> sludge from the bottom. Always place the inlet a few inches off the
bottom. My
> pre-filter has the inlet on its top (about a foot off the bottom).
>
> Here are some details on the filtration system I use:
>
> http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/filter.htm
>
> Good luck.
>
>
Thanks for that posting ;-)

A lot of stuff in there for me to consider. Actually I hadn't thought about
the feed to the upper level getting blocked.....Maybe I should just plant it
out to give a little extra filtration prior to the water going down to the
lower level.

Been out with a tape measure today and we certainly have space for hiding
some external canisters.

Had a look at your filter system and Jan's. More info to digest....

BTW I like the pond - very similar in style to the sort of thing we are
thinking about.....

Thanks again
Gill

[Gill Passman]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Greg Cooper" > wrote in message
> news:DrZhe.118882$3V3.9528@edtnps89...
> > George wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Another alternative would be to create a veggie pond above your main
> pond and
> > > let the water from that cascade down in a waterfall to the main pond.
> Veggies
> > > seem to have less problems with clogging, but I really don't have a
lot
> of
> > > experience with them. My plants are in the pond itself. Others here
in
> this
> > > forum are more experienced with veggie filters, so if you are
> interested, you
> > > could ask about them, and someone will likely tell you more about them
> than I
> > > can. I understand that they work very well, and are quite attractive.
> > >
> >
> > On the subject of veggie filter plants I am really happy with using
> > WaterCest (I expect it would do well in an english climate). It grows
> > well in the top of my filter growing roots down around the river stones
> > as the water wells up then spills off to the side to form the water
> > fall. I originally used water hyacines but the Crest tolerates the
> > shade conditions of my pond much better (added bonus you can eat it!).
> > My "starter plants" was simply a small bunch of WaterCrest from the
> > local grocer. It is happy to root in flowing water and comes back year
> > after year tolerating the mild freezing we get in our winters in BC.
>
Like the sound of the Watercress....I'll be doing some research on Veggie
filters I think.

Thanks

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>The whole project is still in the works (you can view it at
>www.shadowsfall.org )but has been going for a couple of years now.

Really nice Ted. ~ jan :-)

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

[George]

"Gill Passman" <gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk> wrote in message
.. .
>>
> Thanks for that posting ;-)
>
> A lot of stuff in there for me to consider. Actually I hadn't thought about
> the feed to the upper level getting blocked.....Maybe I should just plant it
> out to give a little extra filtration prior to the water going down to the
> lower level.
>
> Been out with a tape measure today and we certainly have space for hiding
> some external canisters.
>
> Had a look at your filter system and Jan's. More info to digest....
>
> BTW I like the pond - very similar in style to the sort of thing we are
> thinking about.....
>
> Thanks again
> Gill
>

Sure. No problem.

[Peter Breed]

Try http://www.koicymru.co.uk/ for some in depth discussion of Koi
keeping in the UK.
Personally I find the whole business of koi keeping more than a little
over the top and would rather stick with comets and shubumkins, but I
guess its a matter of personal taste.

Peter

Gill Passman wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research elsewhere
> I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
>
> We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
> the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
> will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
> because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
> hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
>
> The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
> wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem is
> that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond is
> going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
> end of where the pond is planned for.
>
> Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and if
> yes how deep?
>
> Thanks
> Gill
>
>

[Gill Passman]

"Peter Breed" > wrote in message
...
> Try http://www.koicymru.co.uk/ for some in depth discussion of Koi
> keeping in the UK.
> Personally I find the whole business of koi keeping more than a little
> over the top and would rather stick with comets and shubumkins, but I
> guess its a matter of personal taste.
>
> Peter
>
> Gill Passman wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
elsewhere
> > I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.
> >
> > We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered
and
> > the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The
structure
> > will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
> > because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in
here -
> > hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.
> >
> > The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
> > wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The
problem is
> > that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
is
> > going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the
other
> > end of where the pond is planned for.
> >
> > Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig
and if
> > yes how deep?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Gill
> >
> >
Actually the more I read into it the more I'm inclined to agree with you....

[Gill Passman]

"Courageous" > wrote in message
...
>
> How many gallons (cubic feet * 7.3) do you estimate for your pond?
>
> >The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level.
>
> Are you going to create a 2-3 foot embankment? If not, what will you
> do to make the walls of the pond hold all that weight? Concrete walls?
> Something else?
>
> >I was wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well?
>
> No, not at all.
>
> But given the above, you might do better with a compromise of some sort.
>
> Stand up. Look at your hip. That's probably about 3'. Do you want a burm
> or wall /that/ big? If so, whatcha planning?
>
> While no one thing is "essential" in pond building, your life will
> be a lot easier with a sumped bottom drain feeding to some kind of
> settling tank (designed to be periodically purged), especially if
> your pond is large. The function here is to make the settling tank
> the main thing you clean, and not your pond.
>
> As a lurker, I will assume you know about "veggie filters", "bog
> filters" (of both the up well and down well variety). Try "bog
> filter" on google and "veggie filter" on google groups (rec.ponds)
> to read various statements about each of these.
>
> When you dig, you might consider laying down a bit of extra plumbing
> at some locations if you think you miight want to add something later.
>
> A little preplanning will allow you to change your mind less painfully
> later.
>
> :)
>
> C//
>

Thanks...

I've been out measuring this week in the planned location and visualising
again. It's going to be between 1000-1500 galls. The deck that it will butt
up against is raised around 6 inches above ground level. There definitely
needs to be some digging to get the required depth as otherwise it would
most certainly be too high....

The plan is to build a breeze block structure and then clad it in
wood.....I'm not sure that I can get pre-formed to fit the planned shape but
I will be looking into this....of course liner would be a lot cheaper.

I'm very much interested in the Veggie filter as an addition to more
conventional filtration....plus I do like eating watercress :-)

This pond is still very much in the planning stages and subject to change so
any input is very gratefully appreciated.

Gill

[Courageous]

How many gallons (cubic feet * 7.3) do you estimate for your pond?

>The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level.

Are you going to create a 2-3 foot embankment? If not, what will you
do to make the walls of the pond hold all that weight? Concrete walls?
Something else?

>I was wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well?

No, not at all.

But given the above, you might do better with a compromise of some sort.

Stand up. Look at your hip. That's probably about 3'. Do you want a burm
or wall /that/ big? If so, whatcha planning?

While no one thing is "essential" in pond building, your life will
be a lot easier with a sumped bottom drain feeding to some kind of
settling tank (designed to be periodically purged), especially if
your pond is large. The function here is to make the settling tank
the main thing you clean, and not your pond.

As a lurker, I will assume you know about "veggie filters", "bog
filters" (of both the up well and down well variety). Try "bog
filter" on google and "veggie filter" on google groups (rec.ponds)
to read various statements about each of these.

When you dig, you might consider laying down a bit of extra plumbing
at some locations if you think you miight want to add something later.

A little preplanning will allow you to change your mind less painfully
later.

:)

C//